94: Villisca Axe Murder House

Gina (00:50)

Hello and welcome to I Scream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories,

mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Gina.

Kathryn (01:00)

And I'm Kathryn

Gina (01:02)

And this month we are talking about axe murders.

And to comfort us while we talk about such a dark topic, we are having some praline ice cream. Kind of. More on that later.

Kathryn (01:13)

Ha ha

Gina (01:14)

If you already know us, welcome back. We're so glad you're here. And if you want to see more from us each month, go on over and join us on Patreon. Link is in the show notes. This episode is sponsored by Clobear Money Coach. If you want oodles and noodles of money, you probably need to invest, but if you're not sure how to do that,

Go on over to get lazynow.com. Clobear will help you out. Until then, grab a spoon and let's dig in.

Kathryn (01:39)

Excellent.

Gina (01:39)

Should we

address my fake looking background? Yeah,

Kathryn (01:42)

Yeah, your fake ass background and your weird ass sound.

Gina (01:49)

I am on vacation right now. So I'm not on my normal mic. And my background, if you're watching this on YouTube, looks very fake, but it's not. It's real. It's very beautiful.

Kathryn (01:57)

It does. Allegedly.

Gina (02:01)

Allegedly. Yes, it's gorgeous. We're in Madeira.

Kathryn (02:04)

Yeah.

Gina (02:06)

I think we've been here for almost a week now, four or five days.

Kathryn (02:08)

Yeah.

Gina (02:09)

And so far my highlight of the trip,

is that the other day I went on a hike where at the end of it there are birds who will sit in your hand. So I'm gonna send you a picture of me holding birds in my hand like Snow White.

Kathryn (02:23)

my god, like Snow White. my gosh, you're sending it now.

Gina (02:25)

Mm-hmm. They were so cute.

Kathryn (02:27)

Cinnamon loves this.

Gina (02:30)

So what do I? I just texted it to you.

Kathryn (02:33)

Phil texted me at the same time that you did and I accidentally hit his and I was like, Wait, that's not a picture of a bird.

You look so excited.

Gina (02:42)

So yeah, that's my my bird highlight.

Kathryn (02:44)

I love that. That's adorable.

That really is a snow white moment.

Gina (02:48)

I'm gonna be thinking about that for many, many moons.

Kathryn (02:50)

Ha

Gina (02:52)

But are we

eating ice cream today? You're having coffee?

Kathryn (02:55)

I'm having coffee because it's first thing in the morning over here and I'm

sticking with my Gina pralins. That's what I'm calling them. I

Gina (03:04)

G leans. I love it.

Kathryn (03:06)

will hope okay, I will say this. Hopefully by the next episode, I have a plan in motion.

Gina (03:13)

In motion.

Kathryn (03:14)

Stay stay tuned. Stay tuned. Hopefully by the next episode

I will I will come better prepared. I've not given up on praline month. Yeah.

Gina (03:23)

I'm so intrigued. Okay.

Yeah, I also don't have Brillions. We got these the little ice cream bars you can get at the store, so I'm having one of those.

Kathryn (03:38)

I'm waiting for you to open it because that's all I can hear.

Gina (03:39)

Ha ha

Kathryn (03:41)

It's like I'm not gonna be able to hear you. Is it just vanilla? Just a standard cute. Okay.

Gina (03:44)

Mm-hmm. Vanilla and white chocolate. Yep.

Kathryn (03:49)

nice. I don't know why I said it like that. I don't like white chocolate, but I love that for you, because I know you like white chocolate.

Gina (03:55)

I love white chocolate. And

I do unfortunately need to eat this quite quickly because it's going to melt. So I'm not ignoring you, I promise.

Kathryn (04:01)

Why? That background is fake, is it not? I cannot get over it. I really

feel like you I feel like I'm back in like the agency world where people would pop

Gina (04:12)

Hm

Kathryn (04:12)

on and it's like it's very clear that you are just like in your living room, but

you have this like whatever.

favorite was when they had like

Pictures of offices that just looked better than their office. That was always my favorite.

Gina (04:28)

Me too. Everyone had the same, like stack of very neatly aligned books behind them or the brick wall, the exposed brick.

Kathryn (04:33)

Yep. The brick

wall and the plant. The random ass plant.

Gina (04:38)

Mm.

So I don't wanna rush past the hello, how are you doing portion of the episode, but I am really curious about this topic you're covering today because I don't know much about it other than I had like the vaguest notion

of

Kathryn (04:52)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (04:52)

what this is and what happened, but nothing other than that. Would you regale me?

Kathryn (04:55)

Yeah. Okay.

I would love to regale you because this is one of those stories that have lost so many hours of sleep over the years. I am obsessed with this story. It's a horrific story. content warning, obviously Axe Murder, like you said last week, that's just content warning for the month. But we're also gonna be talking about

almost said murder. We've already established that. Specifically child murder. And I will be talking about the crime scene in a little bit more detail. Well, a lot of bit more detail than you did last week. this is one of those stories that could easily be told a million

different ways. And the way I am choosing to tell it is a little bit more gruesome. So just content warning for that.

but yeah. Yeah, so this is gonna be a really great outlooking story. We're gonna see how this goes, everybody. Sorry, and thank you for being here. Okay, so

Gina (05:43)

Okay, cool. Jeez. I'm so scared.

Kathryn (05:53)

This week's story starts in a small, now infamous town in Iowa called Villisca. Villisca grew from just a teeny tiny little settlement into a thriving railroad and agricultural community when it became part of the Chicago, Burlington, and Quincy Railroad line in 1858. Once this happened, it essentially boomed overnight. And I say that.

relatively speaking, because by the early 1900s it had roughly 2,500 people. So by today's standards, a pretty small town. I mean, it is in rural Iowa. So I don't want to paint a picture of this like big, bustling international city. But for early 1900s, it was it was a railroad town. There was commerce, there was shopping, people would come and, you know, start their own business off the railroad.

People were in and out. It it was the place to be in rural Iowa at the time. Victorian homes lined with the streets, It is that that town that still exists today when you're on a long road trip and you see all these historic homes and then you're gone and out of town within two minutes. So that's think of that. Think of

Think of where I grew up, and that's essentially what we're talking about here. This is very familiar to me. The community was formally laid out by railroad employee D.N. Smith, who gave it the name Villisca. He's the one who named the town. And he did so because he thought that that was the local Native Americans word for pretty place.

Or lovely view. That was the definition he thought he was working with here. Unfortunately, our boy Smith apparently got confused because the root of the word Vallisca does not mean anything pretty or lovely. And historians believe that he likely got confused. And the name actually comes from the word Walliska, which means evil place.

So just

Gina (08:01)

that's one of the best ones I've heard.

Kathryn (08:04)

yeah, big, big oopsie. just as a little accidental foreshadowing for this entire story and history of the entire town.

because after the night of June 9th, 1912, when

a local family of four and two neighbor girls were brutally murdered. After that, Villisca would forever have the reputation of exactly that.

An evil place. Back in 1903, a couple named Josiah B. and Sarah Montgomery Moore moved to Vallisca and purchased the house at 508 East 2nd Street. The house was originally built in 1868 for a local man named George Loomis.

It was about 600 square feet with two bedrooms, a parlor, a sewing room, a kitchen, and an outhouse. It also had a barn that George had built during his time living there. The Moors were both originally from Illinois before they moved in. That's where they got married. But at a certain point, all of the Moore family, so Josiah's

whole immediate and extended family who were also from Illinois packed up and moved out to Vallisca. So Josiah and Sarah followed.

At the time that they moved to Villisca, they had two small children, Herman and Mary Catherine, and they would go on to have two more boys named Arthur and Paul.

Gina (09:30)

I love the name Arthur. I think Artie is so cute.

Kathryn (09:33)

Isn't it so cute? I love all of these names, I feel like are very 1910

or whatever it was, especially while Mary Catherine, we've talked about this before, she went by Catherine, just because everyone's first name was Mary in 1900

Gina (09:45)

Yeah.

Kathryn (09:47)

Josiah, while in Villisca, became a very well known businessman and he worked really hard to build a comfortable life for his family. he worked in the agricultural trade business. that's what I think brought his family to Villisca and he just grew in the industry very quickly. He originally worked in the farm implementation.

Business and eventually became a John Deere dealer. And for the uninitiated, John Deere is a ginormous farming equipment and specifically tractor dealing company. And that's a big deal down in the Midwest, down where I come from, amongst all the cornfields, John Deere is a big deal.

Gina (10:29)

I always wanted a John Deere lawnmower because I wanted to drive it.

Kathryn (10:32)

Did I have we talked about this on the podcast? My school we had a during our homecoming week, one of the day you know how you do like fun, like crazy hair day or dress like your favorite character day.

Gina (10:42)

uh huh

Kathryn (10:43)

One of our days was drive your tractor to work day. Or drive your tractor to school day. Did you? Yes. Twas me.

Gina (10:48)

knew I had a friend who had that and I kept

forgetting, my God, okay. Yes. We have t I don't yeah. I don't know if we talked

Kathryn (10:53)

Twas I Yeah.

Gina (10:54)

about that on the podcast. We we've definitely talked about that before.

Kathryn (10:57)

Yes. And I bring that

up because you mentioned lawnmower and there was I mean there were like official rules and one of the rules was riding lawnmowers were accepted. You could ride your lawnmower to work day if you did not, if you were not on a farm, you could still participate.

Gina (11:10)

Hm.

Kathryn (11:14)

We also had muddiest truck competition.

Gina (11:18)

how very southern Illinois.

Kathryn (11:21)

Excuse me, Central, Central Illinois.

Gina (11:23)

Central Illinois, so sorry, so sorry.

Southern to me. My mistake, my darling. My mistake, my central Illinois queen. Never again.

Kathryn (11:27)

From the heart of Illinois, Gina. Don't disrespect. Yes,

di like honestly, directly east a few hours of Villisca. So there you go. Just to further paint a picture. Yeah, we're back.

Gina (11:41)

And we're back.

Kathryn (11:45)

So I'm I'm mentioning all of this and you know the fact that he was a John Deere dealer because this was a huge success. I mean, he was a big deal in town. This was

Like I said, an agricultural community. So, you know, having a John Deere dealer right in town, what he was like the guy. So while Josiah was slinging heavy machinery, Sarah was holding down the fort at home and in the church, as every good woman in Iowa did in the early 20th century. She was very kind and very well liked. They were just a nice, happy, normal Midwestern family.

I can't stress that enough. It it really was just your average small town fam situation. they they were a big part of the Presbyterian church that was in town, and that's where Sarah spent a lot of her time volunteering. And one of the most exciting events of the year, particularly for the children in the parish, was a Children's Day program that Sarah helped to organize. It was a big deal. It was like

The end of year, end of summer, or I'm sorry, end of school, the big deal mark of the beginning of summer, end of Sunday school.

The kids are free. So, of course, the Moors attended the program. And after it was over, Mary Catherine's

two friends, Aina Mae and Lena Gertrude, came home with the Moore family. Isn't that so cute? I know, I love it. Lena Gertrude and Ana Mae.

Gina (13:11)

Selena Gertrude my goodness

Kathryn (13:15)

Yes, so cute. Which is completely unrelated. There is a restaurant in Chicago called Ina Maes different Ina May

But it's very good. Highly recommend. Completely unrelated to this story,

but

Gina (13:27)

Mm.

Kathryn (13:28)

I just think that's an adorable name. So I had to mention it.

Gina (13:30)

Mm. Yum.

Kathryn (13:32)

so Ina Mae and Lena Gertrude Stillinger. they were kind of they kind of sandwiched Catherine in age at this time. Catherine was 10 years

old, Lena was 11, and her little sister Ina was eight. But all three of them hung out.

They were like besties. They were daughters of a wealthy farming family that lived, I think, roughly seven miles outside of town. And I didn't look that up. Do you know how many kilometers that is?

Gina (13:59)

I know a kilometer is what? Like zero point six miles or something? Zero point eight?

Kathryn (14:05)

I don't know, but sometimes I accidentally knock the setting on my speedometer in my car and it switches to kilometers and it always really freaks me out because I'm like, wow,

I feel like I'm going way faster than that.

Gina (14:18)

that's funny.

Kathryn (14:19)

Or

or opposite. I feel like I'm going whatever.

Okay. So they lived about what what is that? eleven miles outside of town. Nope. Kilometers. Sorry. Eleven kilometers, seven miles. Math. Okay.

Gina (14:29)

There we go, cool.

Kathryn (14:34)

So they were farm girls.

I bring up the distance because cars were not a huge thing in rural Iowa in 1912.

It would have been a lot of effort to get them back home after the children's program. So they decided to just have a slumber party. at the Moore's house. So

at 6 p.m. before leaving for the program, Josiah called the Stillinger family to let them know that the girls were welcome to stay. So it was all pre-planned. They were all, you know, gonna have a big sleepover that night.

They go to the program, have a great time. Program ends around 9 30. The Moors are home by 9 45 ish, lights out by ten. The Moors had set up a little cot downstairs in the sewing room where Ina and Lena slept, and everyone else slept in their normal bedrooms. So Herman, Catherine, Arthur, and Paul slept in their room upstairs, and then Josiah and Sarah were in the other room.

Everything was normal. Nothing strange t happened at the program. No one sounded or seemed unsafe in any way. Like everything went off without a hitch until the next morning when the neighbor, Mary Peckham, noticed that nobody was up and moving around like they normally would be around 7 a.m. And sorry. I accidentally sorry, accidentally deleted something. Hold on. Okay, let me hit back.

Gina (16:01)

It's like you were trying to jump scare me.

And then suddenly

Kathryn (16:04)

What?

Sorry, okay.

I I do want to pause here and just further reiterate the setting because if my neighbor started nosing around and wondering where I was at seven a.m., I would blow a gasket because that's weird and crazy.

but th again, this is a small farming community in nineteen twelve. By seven AM, you have milked to the cow, you've like done your chores, you've been out, you know, collecting water like

It's just a whole thing. Like you are alive and living your life fully at 7 a.m. in Villisca, Iowa, 1912. Especially in a family of six with two girls staying the night. There's eight people in this small two-bedroom house and nobody is making any sound or movement whatsoever. That's suspicious and and worth concern.

Especially since Mary saw them come home the night before. You know, this is a small town, but the houses are pretty close together. Like it is a proper town. They're not out in the middle of nowhere. So she walks over, knocks on the door, but nothing happens.

She tries to go inside, but it's locked. So she goes back home and she calls Josiah's brother, whose name was Ross. he comes over, does the same thing. He's pounding on the door, shouting, trying to get someone's attention, but no one appears to be home. But but she knows they're home. Like I said, she's she saw them. They should be there. They would have nowhere else to be. Luckily, Ross.

Has a copy of the key in case of emergency. So he goes and gets it and unlocks the door, steps inside, but hears and sees nothing. So he starts looking around. He goes over to the sewing room first, and the moment he enters the room, he calls out to Mary, who's still out on the front porch and tells her to call the authorities immediately. After the call, very, very shortly after the call, a man named Hank Horton arrived. He was the town's main log.

Guy at the time. I don't know what to call him because based on what I read, the official title was Peace Officer, which have you heard that before?

Gina (18:13)

I mean, that sounds kind of like dystopian, like nineteen eighty four, doesn't it?

Kathryn (18:18)

That's hilarious because apparently to this day it is a synonym for for police officer. I've never heard anyone say that before. iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com

Do you call cops peace officers? Just curious. No reason whatsoever. but every

Gina (18:35)

Mm.

Kathryn (18:36)

everyone, everything I read about this was like very confidently like, yeah, he was a town peace officer. And I've never heard that before ever. And I'm like familiar with the story. So

I don't know. It just

struck me. It seems weird, but I bring this up because they this time in America, police officers and law enforcement as we know it today was still very new. It it did exist. Like there were obviously there was law and order to some capacity, but it wasn't the structure we have today. So they didn't have like a formal I'm gonna be saying detective and law enforcement and authority and all that, but like

It wasn't what we know of today. You know, it was very just kind of like off the cuff. There was just some guy keeping tabs on people, and that was kind of it. So just keep that in mind as as we move forward, because that does very heavily impact the outcome of this story. So anyway, when the authorities got there, whoever they may be and whatever they may have been called, it was an absolutely brutal scene. I mean, it was it was astonishing to everyone involved, and no one had ever seen anything like it.

I am gonna go into detail now about the crime scene. And please know that this is a heavily edited down version of it, but it still might be a little bit much for some people. So just fair warning here. what they surmised likely happened and based on what they saw initially

was around midnight after everyone was asleep, someone attacked and killed Josiah first, followed by Sarah.

And he used the blunt end of an axe that was taken from the Moore's barn. This person then moved on to the children's room across the hall to repeat the same thing on all four children. And then when he was done in the kids' room, he went back to Josiah and Sarah's room and attacked them again before heading downstairs to the Stillinger sisters.

Sadly, it is believed that Lena may have been awake during her attack because she appeared to have one defensive wound on her arm and she was lying crosswise on the bed, suggesting that she may have tried to get away. But everyone else was definitely asleep. I mean, it it part of what is so eerie and unsettling and kind of unforgettable about this case is it really was, you know, without.

the blood stains and just what their faces and heads looked like. They literally just looked like people sound asleep in bed. Like no one even stirred. So Lena was the only one that did appear to be awake and she was the last one. seven people were murdered by the time she woke up and started to try to get away. So that's super bizarre because like how did this person make it all the way through the house and murder s what did I say, eight people?

without anyone noticing. Word about the murders spread so quickly. I mean it was immediate.

Similar to the Lizzie Borden case, the crime scene was absolutely annihilated with Lookie Lou's. as a reminder, the neighbor Mary noticed

this shit was weird around 7 a.m. And at 8:40, an automated all-call emergency alert was set out to every family in town just to notify them about the murders. It wasn't like a, hey,

Come take a look for yourself. It was like, this happened, you may be unsafe, like FYI, don't go outside. But of course, they did. Literally within minutes of this all call getting sent out, the entire crime scene was flooded with townspeople. Literally less than two hours between someone noticing something was just mildly weird, and it was just absolutely overrun with people in town.

They were traipsing all through the house like it was some weird ass museum. Yeah. They were they just like busted through the door and started like looking around. Hundreds of people were like picking up the axe and passing it around to like have a look. Yeah, I know. And this

this part, I mean, the worst the worst part of this is that several people

took pieces of Josiah's skull as like a souvenir of the situation. Yeah. Is that not so fucked up? Yeah.

Gina (23:08)

Dude that's incredibly

fucked up. And they knew this guy.

Kathryn (23:14)

He was a he was a beloved member of the community, yes. And I think and like this

Gina (23:18)

Wow.

Kathryn (23:19)

isn't does not excuse it whatsoever, but I think that was part of why. Like it was like, this is Josiah Moore, like blah blah blah. So like so gross. And this is of course not an excuse, but like I think people were just so I think it was so astonishing that it was almost not real to them.

a lot of people tell this story in a way that like the authorities are the ones that fucked it up. And and they they could have done better, but it was so outrageous and beyond anything the department could handle.

I wanna make it clear, it was not like they said, Hey everyone, come look at the moors. This is wild. take some for yourself. they did not want people there. they literally just physically could not stop the people from getting in. It was like a mob of weird ass tourists almost. Like everyone wanted to see what was going on.

eventually the coroner got there. He had to like bust through all of these people. It took him forever to get through. And he was basically like, Yeah, I can't work like this. You guys need to get this shit under control. So they had to call in the National Guard to secure the perimeter of this house. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Gina (24:25)

Holy cow, jeez. Can you sorry, can

you remind me how big this town was?

Kathryn (24:33)

Twenty five hundred people. But that includes

Gina (24:35)

Okay.

Kathryn (24:35)

like farming families. So that's not just

Gina (24:38)

Yeah.

Kathryn (24:38)

like within walking distance. Yeah.

Gina (24:40)

Yeah,

okay. Damn. Phew.

Kathryn (24:43)

finally, after things were secure, they were able to actually get some work done because at that point they only had their initial, I mean, they maybe had like a half hour by the time they got on the scenes and got their wits about them to actually like take a look

at things before everyone came and fucked it up.

what they were able to piece together was as follows. first and foremost, it was likely a man because all of these types of murders are always suspected to be men.

Axes are heavy, and women are, of course, too meek and mild to be able to wield such a weapon as we've heard previously and will continue to hear throughout

this month. after he finished with the murders, he went around the entire house and he covered all of the windows and mirrors with blankets and linens, like from throughout the house.

just to give a little bit of background, covering mirrors after someone died was a very popular Victorian death practice.

Traditionally, people believed that if there was a mirror or any type of reflective glass, such as a window, for example, in the room where someone died, their soul could get trapped and not be able to find their way off to heaven. This of course grew out of older folk traditions and beliefs, but like for the Victorian era, this was very much a like in order to make it to heaven, you couldn't get trapped.

In anything around you. So it was very normal for people to cover reflective surfaces or surfaces after someone died. This is valuable information. This really does tell us quite a bit about who likely did this. because whoever did this appeared to care about their immortal souls despite what he did to them. So that is immediately, you know, something that could give us a clue, but it doesn't really narrow things down.

That much, but it could, you know, it's something. It's better than nothing. there was also an imprint in some of the hay in the Moore's barn, which investigators believed is where he likely watched them for a little while so he could get to know their patterns and schedules. I know, bear with me. This is such a creepy story. There

Gina (26:53)

man.

Kathryn (26:54)

is a little frogging element to this story. Yeah.

Gina (26:57)

Okay.

Kathryn (26:57)

Yeah. Just tiny, but big enough, you know?

They also found two stubbed-out cigarettes in the attic, which is where he likely was waiting for them when they got home.

this is really all they have to go off of. I okay, so I saved this detail for last because it is the most, I'm gonna say like emotionally or psychologically unsettling to me. Not more so than the blunt end of an act to the head, but just like this is one of those pieces where I'm like, this could mean a lot of different things, either super sinister and gross or super casual. And not knowing that upsets me greatly.

So here we go. investigators found that a meal had been made, like after he murdered them, but it was left completely untouched at the kitchen table, and there was also a glass of bloody water next to it. So it's possible that he like after killing them was like, oof, I'm fan famish. That was

A lot of energy I just exerted. Let me make a quick little snack. And then just decided it was smarter to bounce before he got caught. But like it also could be symbolic in some way. The bloody water was likely just he poured himself a glass of water, took a sip, whatever blood was on him from them got into the water. So that's kind of explainable. But it's the untouched meal that freaks me out. Like it looked like he was like setting the table to sit down and

like have a nice night in by himself. There also was a package of bacon that had been taken from the ice box and like laid next to the axe that he left behind. I know. It's

Gina (28:49)

This is weird.

Kathryn (28:51)

creepy. It's very weird.

Yeah, we and and again, we we have no idea why he did this. Some speculate that he was trying to send a message. And like I said, others were just like he probably was just hungry after murdering eight people. And it was as simple as that. We do not know and we will not ever know. we have no idea what the motive was. not only was the crime scene completely defiled, but what investigators were able to suss out from the mess.

was kind of completely nonsensical. Like nothing added up, nothing made sense. So how do we start to narrow down the suspects? There there was literally nothing to go off of. townspeople of course started to talk and while doing so it became apparent that one of the most obvious suspects was a man named Frank Jones.

Frank was a farm equipment business owner that Josiah used to work for. And that's how Josiah got his start in the industry within the town of Villisca. And when he got successful enough to go out on his own, he left Frank's business to go create his own business.

And he took the John Deere account with him when he left. And that's a big deal. That that is essentially the equivalent of stealing like a multimillion dollar client from a corporation today. And that was like a huge fuck you from Josiah to Frank. And this immediately created extreme competition between the two men because, you know.

I'm describing this as like a bustling railroad agricultural community, but like at the end of the day, it was still only 2,500 people with a limited number of farms. Like they did not need two farm equipment dealers in this town. So Frank had a huge amount of animosity toward Josiah, which is kind of valid because I mean the man basically taught Josiah everything he knew about this industry, and Josiah took that info and took their biggest client. So now

Not worth murder, but there there was reason for there to be animosity between these two men. Frank had become a senator by the time these murders happened. So don't worry, he was doing just fine despite the competing businesses. And he also

had no official alibi for the night of the murders. He was in town and available to kill people that night. So he s he started to

Gina (31:19)

Ha

Kathryn (31:19)

look real suspicious.

However, Frank was never formally charged with the murders because it's extremely unlikely that someone who holds public office would do this type of dirty work himself. So instead, they pressed charges against the man that they allege Frank hired as a hitman, a man named William Mansfield.

William had been accused of a different ex-murder case that happened the previous summer in Colorado Springs. they were very similar crime scenes. Both crime scenes had sheets covering the windows and mirrors of the location where the murders happened. And there was a lack of fingerprints due to the murderer wearing gloves. So there was a level of, you know, pre-planning is the word? Yeah, it it was clearly planned.

And the victims all had sheets covering them as well. Enough of a coincidence to make you raise your eyebrow, but not enough to officially convict William, specifically who was not found guilty of either crime because

there wasn't enough evidence to like this particular man to either crime. Whether they were related or not, he personally couldn't like there was no evidence that it was this guy.

So investigators keep looking and decide to pursue a man that I think is one of the most compelling suspects, and that is a man named Reverend George Kelly. Reverend Kelly was an itinerant minister. So he basically was like a traveling substitute Reverend, if you will. He would go from congregation to congregation depending on who needed someone to preach. And he was originally from England.

And he was thought to be, quote, rather odd by 1912 terms, but in 2026 terms, he suffered from schizophrenia. He had what was described as a mental breakdown when he was a little boy, but schizophrenia had not yet been discovered at the time he had this breakdown when he was younger. So he wouldn't be diagnosed officially until after the Villisca murder.

Investigation. This is information that like came out kind of as a result of this trial and looking into him and yada yada. he was described as a bit of a peeping Tom. He had been caught peeping in win women's windows numerous times all across the country in many towns that he traveled to to preach. And he also casually had a pension for arson. So

a lot of things that led people to like very quickly point their finger at him. One of the details discussed around the murders is the fact that it was done with a kind of a strange mix of passion, but also like calculation and planning. when people describe a crime of passion, it's often in relation to something that like.

You know, something happened and this person just snapped, you know, like a a crime of passion is something that's like, okay, you lost your mind and like brutally attack these people. It's not often associated with pre-planning, you know. So so this was kind of a weird case because based on the clues that they found, it kind of seemed like there was both. So because of

who Reverend Kelly was and his kind of strange behavior and the patterns that he had shown previously, it did kind of make sense that he could be someone that would do something like this that showed both crime of passion and pre-planning.

what is the official word I'm looking for? Pre-meditation.

Gina (35:03)

Is it premeditation?

Kathryn (35:06)

Thank you. Yes. Okay. I was like,

Every time pre-planning came out of my mouth, I'm like, that is not the phrase. Pre-meditation.

Gina (35:13)

Mm.

Kathryn (35:14)

Okay.

Kathryn (36:15)

Because it was done with such a bizarre mix of like passion and premeditation, it was thought that there may have been some level of like the phrase that was repeatedly used was some like sexual frustration behind the

murders. though there was no sign of any sexual assault or anything, it was just like a psychological theory for why someone

could have done this. I I don't know like the details of how we came to that conclusion, but the whole peeping Tom situation that this reverend had, the the reputation that he had, fit the bill pretty exactly. So I think that was one of the big keys as to why he became such a prime subject. Why he became such a prime suspect in this case.

It's also important to note that since he was a traveling minister, he arrived in Villisca the day prior so that he could work at the children's program where the Moors were the night of the murders. And he was gone the next day. Like literally, he was on the train out of town by the time the crime scene was cleaned up. Because investigators had spent so much time on other suspects, though, it took them five years to arrest Reverend Kelly.

by the time he was arrested, most witnesses had a really difficult time remembering details. Plus, the defense had a sound argument for why he couldn't have done that. And it was because he was teensy winsey. He was five

two and 119 pounds. So he was, of course, unable to wield an axe. Of course.

Gina (38:00)

Of course, my gosh.

Kathryn (38:05)

despite this, everyone was so sure that it was him. He even confessed to the murders in writing. But there is evidence that the confession that he wrote was likely coerced.

And even if it wasn't, the schizophrenia makes things muddy because it's always going to be unclear if he really remembers committing this crime or if it was like a delusion and something that he came up with as like a result of this trial, essentially. You know, like it just

Schizophrenia wasn't well understood. I mean, it was only it had only been discovered, I think, like fifteen, twenty years prior, something like that. So there just wasn't enough knowledge or evidence or anything like that to convict him.

We can't really discount the fact that like of the very few clues we do have, it did appear that the person who did this was in the house for a little while. And so he it couldn't like he I don't wanna say it couldn't have been him, but based on that information, he couldn't have been in the house for a while. He was at the children's program and he wouldn't have had time to, you know, sit in their barn and scope them out and sit there and have a few cigarettes or whatever unless he came home.

With them, which is perfectly possible, but it just but we just don't know that. You know what I mean? Like everything could have happened, but there is no concrete evidence to say that it actually did. So he walked free. the list of suspects was kind of endless.

Villisca was such a prominent train town that it was literally impossible to narrow it down because there were so, so, so many people passing through at any given moment. It literally could have been anyone anywhere in the country who did this. A lot of transient people were accused, literally all of them, but there just wasn't any solid proof linking anyone to the crime.

So they kind of the way they did it was they kind of just were grabbing it, anybody, like anybody who was in town at the time, anyone who had any suspicious activity whatsoever. everyone was accused basically of this crime. Every man was accused of this crime, I should say. There was one man in particular

named Andy Sawyer that authorities zeroed in on because he showed up in a town about an hour away early in the morning after the murders. He was someone just passing through town.

And he was looking for work at the next town over. And by the time news spread about the murders, he told the crew that he was working with the crew in that town, the next town over that ended up giving him the job. He told them that he had been passing through Villisca the day of the murders. And when he heard about the crime, he was scared that he was gonna be accused of.

The crime because he was some guy passing through and he felt like that was probably suspicious. He knew that they were gonna point their finger at guys just passing through. So he got scared and like headed out of town. So the people he was working for turned him in because they were like, Well, why would you be scared if you weren't the one who did it? which like I guess kind of makes sense. Like I got that's not like an unreasonable thing.

Thing to think. But it also is just he was scared because of exactly what happened. Like he knew they were going to point their finger at Transients and he was someone passing through. So like it was almost like by naming the fear, the fear actually came true. Like if he had just not said anything, he would be on no one's radar, basically.

Gina (41:49)

this might be

a a very unfortunate in comparison. Do apologize. I don't mean for it to be insensitive, but it reminds me of a scene from Miss Congeniality 2 Because there's

Kathryn (41:59)

I don't remember that movie. What what scene?

Gina (42:01)

there's a scene where I can't remember like what causes this to happen, but basically Sandra Bullock is chasing who she thinks is a Dolly Parton impersonator, tackles her to the ground because like the Dolly Parton impersonator's running, and then it turns out to actually be Dolly Parton, and Sandra Bullock like

Well, why were you running if you didn't do anything wrong? And Dolly goes, Well, because someone was chasing me. That's why I was running. And so it's

Kathryn (42:24)

Yeah.

Gina (42:25)

it's kind of like that vicious cycle of like Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's Yeah, R I P Yeah.

Kathryn (42:29)

That is so funny. R.I.P. by the way. R.I.P. We didn't mention that, but the world has

completely crumbled this past week. Yeah.

Gina (42:36)

Yeah. I think that's probably why it was on my mind. Just all of my memories of Dolly Parton resurfacing, yeah.

Kathryn (42:42)

gosh, I have to go watch that now. Yeah.

Gina (42:45)

Great movie.

Kathryn (42:46)

But I mean, honestly, that that is I think a perfect example because it's like

If you if she hadn't run, she wouldn't have gotten tackled, but like she ran because she was afraid of getting tackled. Like, that is exactly what happened to this guy, essentially. But again, just like everyone else, there was literally no proof that he or any of the other travelers had anything to do with it whatsoever. There just simply was no way to know who did this. And we still don't know to this day. They had no

Proof of anything to go off of. And after the crime scene was ruined by the townspeople, it was like whatever little was already there. They likely were not going to solve it anyway, but once people got a hold

of that crime scene, it was basically just like done. There was no chance whatsoever. This crime absolutely unraveled the community. The Stillinger family was never the same. we haven't really talked much about.

Them yet, but the most heartbreaking part of the aftermath to me, is the fact that Mrs. Stillinger was pregnant when Ina and Lena were murdered, and she ended up miscarrying just as a result of like the stress and heartbreak of the situation.

So yeah, she lost three babies in a matter of like a month. Yeah,

Gina (44:07)

Jesus.

Kathryn (44:09)

just so heartbreaking.

The community struggled so hard after this. There was a bit of an influx of the morbidly curious, but the commerce and bustling industry and growth and all of that significantly slowed after this before stopping altogether when the railroad and agricultural prominence of the area started to shift. And now to this day, Villisca is about half the size.

That it was the year of the murders. And the decline wasn't just because of the murders. things shifted. People in s were moving out of the small towns to go to the larger cities for the more like automated agriculture and blah blah blah. You know, the railroad isn't as prominent anymore, all of these things. But that definitely was kind of

The kickoff to the decline of the town. And for the next 90 years, the house itself changed hands 13 times. And for many of those years, the house just sat empty. Nobody wanted it. It was thought of to be cursed, and no one wanted any association with the murder house. It was like a bad omen in the town. A lot of people were like, let's just knock it down. We don't want it here. And it started to significantly deteriorate.

Until the nineties, a couple named Rick and Vicky Sprague purchased the property on New Year's Day, 1994. Which I feel like my last episode had to do with New Year's. in like the early nineties. I just realized the Sallie house, they moved into that house around the same time, I think. I don't know if it was 94, but it was definitely around New Year's. Anyway,

Gina (45:51)

That's creepy.

Kathryn (45:52)

yeah, I just noticed that.

Regardless, they couldn't keep up with all the repairs and maintenance needed to bring this house to like livable and operable status condition is the word I'm looking for. So within just a few months, they didn't own it very long, they approached a local real estate agent,

Darwin Lynn, and asked him to buy it. Lynn was super passionate about local history. He and his wife

Martha co-owned the Olsen Lynn Museum in Vallisca. So the home's connection to the murders kind immediately piqued his interest. I mean, that what I really cannot stress enough how much that murder case influenced the decline decline/slash success, if you want to think of it that way, of this town. Like it was a huge part of their history. So after several months of hemming and hawing, the Lynns ended up buying the property.

And they restored it to what it is today. And I do just have to say, I do think it's funny that this house was for sale for several months because I think the average house on the market time now is what two weeks. So the fact that they could

Gina (47:00)

God

Kathryn (47:00)

just sit and sit there, yeah, like, should we or shouldn't we? That if this house goes up for sale today, it's gonna be gone in an hour or two. anyway, like I said, they restored it to what it is today. And what is it today? Haunted and

As fuck. So the Linz

Gina (47:15)

Ha ha ha.

Kathryn (47:17)

opened it to the public in the 90s. They restored it and got it up and running. And ever since people were allowed into the home after they bought it, so many people have claimed to have experiences here. The most prominent thing that nearly everyone, claims they feel is

Basically, an overwhelming sense of dread and sadness. And a lot of people experience like an unxplainable and unprompted feeling of rage. There is also a strange fog that has been seen creeping from room to room. And this has been documented in photos too. Unfortunately, all the photos that I could find, it's like one of those things where I can see what you probably saw in real life, but it just looks.

like dust or haze or like a flash flare in the photo. But so it's I'm not comfortable calling these images proof, but I also believe that these people are really seeing something and there is something there. It's just something that doesn't seem to be able to be captured on camera. I did find one Reddit post that was a video of people who got a child's laugh come through on a spirit box.

And it was creepy as fuck. I'm not gonna put it in the recording, but I'll link the Reddit post in the description for anyone who wants to see it because that is another thing that people experience a lot. They say there's a lot of childlike activity. A lot of people have heard giggles, children

playing, the sound of kids running around. it definitely was very much very clear that it was a home filled with children. There's a lot of childlike energy there, but it's

it seems to be that kind of like sad childlike energy. Like it seems like they're playing and maybe they're happy on the other side, but there's also because of the heaviness and dark history of the home, a lot of people are nervous that the childlike energy is like darker entities just kind of trying to manipulate people to let them know that there are children there when maybe there really aren't.

I like to think that maybe it just is the Stillinger children and the Moore children like playing around in their house as they did in life. I mean, this is another situation where, they did live in that home happily for many, many years before this happened. So, like, there is going to be happy energy in that house. It's just these murders are so big and so dark that that is a that is a stain, I think, that has been left on the property.

I am real quick just gonna read a blurb from the haunting section on the house's website because they do have a website you can visit and they have a really good history section and information about the house. I think they did a compared to other historic homes that I've seen kind of in this genre of house, I I actually really like their website. So shout out to the Villisca X murder house website. I think they did a good job. Anyway, so it says.

In 2014, one paranormal enthusiast entered the house with a hunting knife, despite being warned not to take it inside by the home's t caretaker. Like they have strict rules not to bring stuff like that into the home. After attempting to provoke the spirits into a response, he reported that he saw a flash of light, and the next thing he knew, he woke up in the hospital.

He had suffered a quote self-inflicted wound with his own knife that he did not remember inflicting. He later returned to the house and apologized for his behavior. So that's the kind of energy,

Gina (50:59)

Holy shit.

Kathryn (51:01)

yeah, that we have in this house. Yeah. There have been numerous reports of things like that. That that is an extreme example, but you know, it is worth noting that a lot of people do experience strange like blackouts and things like that. And it

That is where the kind of evil reputation comes from. As far as hauntings, obviously the evil reputation comes from the initial murder. But these are the types of stories that kind of reinforce the type of evil that people think has been left in this home.

I think that whoever did this, I think that alone is probably going to be enough energy to leave any evil behind anywhere they go. But we we will never know for sure. This crime will never be solved. We do not know who did it and we will never have answers to this particular crime. That should drive me nuts, which is why I can't stop thinking of this story.

but out of the slew of countless Villisca Axe murder suspects, many of whom I did not even mention because we would be here forever, there is one in particular that piques my interest more than the others. He is a man whose name we don't even know, and he has never been caught. And I will tell you more about him in my next episode in two weeks.

Gina (52:19)

What? you're

gonna leave me a

Kathryn (52:23)

Yeah! Yeah, and I'm really leaving

Gina (52:24)

Hey, damn.

Kathryn (52:25)

everyone hanging, you guys. Gina doesn't get this story until you all do. Yeah. Thanks. I was hoping for that reaction.

Gina (52:30)

okay, damn. Okay, okay, okay. Wow, this was a super messed up sorry. And I was muted for

half of my gasp. I had to like unmute myself as quick as I could. Wow, that's messed up. And there are so many

Kathryn (52:44)

Yeah.

Gina (52:45)

parts of that that are messed up. Like the I keep getting stuck

Kathryn (52:47)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (52:48)

on the fact that it was the blunt part of the axe and not even the sharp part.

it wasn't even like the most efficient way to kill and not that I know the most efficient way to kill people, but I would assume the sharp part of the axe is the quicker way.

Kathryn (53:00)

That is a notable thing to pick up on because I looked into that because I was curious about the same thing. Part of the reason they

consider this kind of premeditated or at least thought out to some degree is it seemed clear that he had the intention of murdering everyone. This wasn't just a I'm gonna go get Josiah in bounce, but then decided to just get everyone just in case. It wasn't that because the reason he likely used the blunt end is because using the sharp end A would cause more of a mess. Blunt end produces less

blood spatter And also using the sharp end would more likely it would get caught. You can get more done with the blunt end

Gina (53:49)

my god.

Kathryn (53:49)

faster than if you use the sharp end. It it would require more effort to like use the sharpen for multiple people. Yeah.

Gina (53:57)

Okay, so

it's kind of the opposite of what I thought. This was like this person definitely knew what they were doing.

Kathryn (54:04)

If he yeah, if he was going after one person, you are correct. The sharp end would make most sense. But he as far as efficiency, blunt end was actually more efficient in this particular scenario.

Gina (54:17)

Jesus. When are we recording your next episode?

Kathryn (54:17)

Yeah. I yeah.

I don't know. I think sooner than our our current pace. It's only a few days away, I think. Less than a week, I think. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. I still

Gina (54:29)

I wanna know. Okay. Cheers.

Kathryn (54:32)

have to research it. I like this was like a late night discovery. I did not plan on ending my episode this way. This happened about ten hours ago.

Gina (54:44)

okay. Well,

this is super messed up.

thank you for doing that research, so I didn't have to, but my god.

Kathryn (54:50)

You're

welcome. Do you have something lighter for us? I don't know what your scary on top is, so I don't want to promise anyone levity.

Gina (54:58)

for today's Scary on Top, it's I don't want to say it's lighter, because it's still about Lizzie Borden. I'm still on Lizzie Borden.

Kathryn (55:07)

Okay, I was hoping you were gonna do that. Yes.

Gina (55:09)

Yeah, because we didn't have a whole ton of time in our last episode to talk about paranormal encounters at the Lizzie Borden house. I know

Kathryn (55:14)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (55:15)

you had the scary on top with one of them, but there's lots and lots and lots that we can talk about. So I want to

Kathryn (55:21)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (55:21)

talk about that a little bit today. And

If you did not listen to the last episode, it's totally okay. The only context you really need about Lizzie Borden, if you're not familiar, is that Lizzie Borden's father and stepmother were found killed. Lizzie was accused of the murders, ultimately acquitted of the crimes, and the Borden home has since been turned into a bed and breakfast, where guests report all kinds of strange things happening. Shadowy figures in the backgrounds of photos, items getting knocked over with no explanation.

And I think you're really gonna hate this one. Doors opening by themselves, especially closet doors.

Kathryn (56:01)

No, okay, that fuck that dude. Man, don't be saying stuff like that to me.

Gina (56:03)

Mm yeah. Worst nightmare. Have fun sleeping tonight. Anyway.

In twenty twenty two, one guest was on a tour of the house when the temperature suddenly dropped significantly and he started getting spikes on his EMF detector. And right after this, the tour took them down into the cellar.

The guest started taking some pictures, including a picture of like it was a portrait of someone's face in like a nice ornate frame. And in the glass of the frame, you can see a face reflected back. And I'm gonna send that picture to you right now.

Kathryn (56:41)

No okay, show me

Gina (56:45)

It's very creepy. All right.

All right. It's so creepy. So

Kathryn (56:47)

Wait a second. my god, it's right there. That is so clear.

Gina (56:55)

do you want to describe it for anyone who's listening and not watching?

Kathryn (56:59)

my god. It's like so I don't know who this portrait is, but yeah, I mean it's as you described. It's like this woman looking over like to the left, and then over the shoulder there's a w I mean, that's a woman. That's a person's face. don't know how to describe it. Like, that's just a face.

Gina (57:20)

Yep. It's so creepy. Yeah.

Kathryn (57:23)

But it's n it's very clearly not part of the portrait. Yeah. It's not

Gina (57:23)

To me it looks Yes.

Kathryn (57:27)

like, yeah. Go ahead. What were you gonna say?

Gina (57:30)

And to me it looks like she has bangs or something and her eyes are kind of these dark

Kathryn (57:33)

Yes, she does.

Gina (57:35)

black pits and then her mouth is open almost in like an expression

Kathryn (57:39)

Yes.

Gina (57:39)

of shock or maybe like she's screaming. It's very clear and it's very creepy.

Kathryn (57:44)

It definitely looks middle middle of speaking or something, like you said, either like a scream

Gina (57:50)

Right.

Kathryn (57:51)

or talking or something. Like the mouth definitely looks open. that's wild.

Gina (57:55)

Yeah. And there have been

it's su that one 'cause I normally I struggle with like finding the pictures of creepy things that people capture during paranormal encounters, which is why I send them to you

Kathryn (58:05)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (58:06)

so you can point them out to me. This one I saw all by myself and I was so proud.

Kathryn (58:11)

Yeah, it's so clear. And it's also clearly not we can we'll put this on social too, because it's hard to describe why it's so clear, because it's also clearly not someone in the room either. That's wild. Ooh, I've never seen that before. That's creepy.

Gina (58:28)

Right. Yeah.

So that picture was taken in the cellar, and there have been multiple reports of a feminine presence in the cellar. But the

Kathryn (58:38)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (58:38)

most haunted part of the house is actually said to be the attic. We didn't really talk a whole lot about the attic in the Lizzie Borden episode, but it's where Bridget's bedroom was and

And Bridget was the maid who, alongside Lizzie, was the only other person in the house that we know of at the time of the murders. She plays like a very big role in the investigation. You can stay the night in the attic, either in Bridget's room, or they have a few other rooms up there as well that I think used to be storage rooms. And guests that stay there often report things like a rocking chair rocking back and forth all by itself, or

coat hangers in the closet jostling without anyone moving them. I know. It's all the closet stuff, man. It's so scary. or

Kathryn (59:20)

No! that just gave me chills. Yeah. Ugh.

Gina (59:27)

the sound of a ball rolling across the floor as if a kid is playing with it.

Kathryn (59:32)

I've heard that one. That one I found a lot of those when I was looking for a Reddit story for last episode. Yeah.

Gina (59:38)

Yes.

There are quite a few child ghosts in the Lizzie Borden house. these are often thought to be the children of Lizzie's great aunt, Elizabeth Darling Borden, who lived next door

Kathryn (59:53)

Mm.

Gina (59:53)

to the Borden home with her husband and three children about like a decade, decade and a half before Lizzie was born. And I am just gonna re up the content warning for child death here because it's about to get really dark again, I'm so sorry. So Elizabeth

In 1848, she snapped. She took her youngest two children, and this is a true story. She took her two youngest children, a three-year-old

Kathryn (1:00:16)

Okay.

Gina (1:00:16)

and a baby, down into her basement, where she placed them into a water cistern before

Kathryn (1:00:22)

Hmm.

Gina (1:00:22)

going upstairs and committing suicide. It's really sad. Her children tragically

Kathryn (1:00:28)

Yikes.

Gina (1:00:28)

died as well. They drowned in the cistern.

And it is said that their presence continues to linger both in that home as well as next door in the Lizzie Borden house. In fact, many guests at the bed and breakfast will bring toys specifically for the kids, but sometimes

the kids seem to bring toys to the guests.

Kathryn (1:00:52)

Excuse you?

Gina (1:00:54)

In twenty twenty four, one guest reported that when he arrived, you know, he went to his room, which was in the attic, which is where these kid ghosts are said to hang out, and he kinda settled in a little bit. He greeted the spirits of the house, introduced himself, invited them to communicate with him if the if they wanted to, just like setting a positive intention for the evening. And then after a while he left the room, as you do, to go check out the rest of the house, and when he came back, he saw a baby doll

That hadn't been in his room before laying face down on his bed.

Kathryn (1:01:29)

Magnus.

Gina (1:01:30)

Isn't that so creepy?

Kathryn (1:01:32)

That's like, ma'am, see, this is why I understand like children ghosts not being really kid ghosts, that's like a is the fact that the baby is face down on the bed because it's an evil something or other sending you a message, or is it because that's like

A child passing through just toss their baby onto bed, you know? That's so creepy. Oof, yeah.

Gina (1:01:54)

Exactly. Yeah, you could read so much into it. It's incredibly

creepy, yeah. of course it is also said that Lizzie, along with other members of her family, still hang out around the house as well. Those who report encountering Lizzie's spirit often say it comes with a feeling of really intense sadness or even grief, as as

Kathryn (1:02:13)

Mm.

Gina (1:02:13)

if you've just lost something. And every now and then, especially when staying in Lizzie's old room, people report hearing the what sounds like a woman either chuckling

Or a woman crying, which I think is the perfect metaphor for the way we talk about Lizzie Borden today. It's either she was laughing

Kathryn (1:02:30)

Yeah.

Gina (1:02:31)

or she was crying and like innocent, guilty, that kind of thing. But the house is most famously haunted by her stepmother Abby and her father Andrew. Abby is often seen on the second floor of the home, especially in the guest room where her body was discovered. Whereas Andrew is just kind of like all over the place.

And he's described as being either very grumpy or just straight up malignant. Tour guides have reported getting punched in the back while walking around the home, and they often say that it's Andrew's ghost or spirit that does this. Interestingly, I think you're gonna love this. The owners of the Bed and Breakfast have been keeping a running count of the different types of paranormal encounters over the years, and by far the most common are reports of poltergeist encounters.

As of May twenty twenty six, there have been two hundred and seven poltergeist encounters in the Lizzie Borden home in the last thirty years, ranging from physical attacks, like getting punched in the back, to guests' belongings going completely missing and then turning up the next day with no explanation at all. And I love that they keep count of this. Like there's literally a bar graph on their

Kathryn (1:03:43)

Yeah.

Gina (1:03:43)

website that shows like it I'll send it to you and we can post it somewhere 'cause it's I I

Kathryn (1:03:49)

Yeah.

Gina (1:03:50)

I just think it's so interesting to see. and I do have to cut myself off because I think we could very easily talk about this all day. And I do need to go

Kathryn (1:03:57)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (1:04:00)

lace by the pool and think about the Villisca house and try and recover from that. so if you listening have a story that you would like to hear at the end of the episode, you can send it to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com.

If you would like to see more from us each month, go ahead and join us on Patreon. And if you are enjoying the podcast, it would really help us out if you could leave us a review or a rating wherever you are listening. But until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.

Kathryn (1:04:29)

And keep it creepy.