93: Lizzie Borden

Gina (00:51)

I'm crocheting an elephant, but it's not done. So it just looks like an alien. Thank you.

Kathryn (00:54)

Thank you. That's good. I I

struggle with crochet. I've been trying to learn for a long time and it's not going well, so I keep giving up.

Gina (01:04)

We need

to we talked about doing a crochet date and we never did.

Kathryn (01:08)

Yeah, we've talked about a lot a lot of things.

Gina (01:11)

And cannoli day. We haven't done cannoli day either.

Kathryn (01:14)

Okay, wait, I do have to do a check-in. I've not done a single thing on my my whatever

Gina (01:21)

Ha ha ha.

Kathryn (01:22)

springtime, New Year's, whatever the hoe. Have you? How are you doing on your list?

Gina (01:27)

That's okay. Hell

no, I don't even remember what my list was. That's not my business now. I've grown.

Kathryn (01:30)

I know. I know.

one of the things on my list was just take my sewing machine out of the box. I don't even know where my sewing machine is anymore, let alone. But anyway, I'm actually I'm keeping all this in because I want to know how everyone else is doing on their New Year's resolutions. It is September.

Gina (01:54)

Yeah, happy September.

It's basically spooky season.

Kathryn (01:55)

Happy September.

Yes. it feels like fall this morning. Happy fall. It is September, so it's fall. It is also I Scream You Scream. That's us. Your weekly scoop

Gina (02:06)

Ha ha

Kathryn (02:07)

of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. You thought I was gonna forget to intro, didn't you?

Gina (02:12)

Ha ha ha.

Kathryn (02:14)

My name's Kathryn

Gina (02:15)

I'm Gina.

Kathryn (02:16)

And since it is September, a beautiful, beautiful fall day, this recording day.

we're talking about axe murders today and for

Gina (02:24)

Hmm.

Kathryn (02:25)

the next few weeks while we enjoy praline ice cream. More on that later. If you already know us, welcome back. And if you want more from us each month, go on over and join us on Patreon, like our new friend Tramika. Welcome, welcome to Patreon. We're very happy to have you.

this episode is sponsored by Clobear Money Coach. If you're ready to start investing but unsure how exactly to get started, visit getlazynow.com. Till then, grab a spoon and let's dig in.

What are you eating,

Gina (02:58)

What do we got?

Kathryn (02:59)

Gina?

Gina (03:01)

Okay,

so I didn't have time to make or find praline ice cream because it's been a busy time in the Gina and Tom and Roux household. So

Kathryn (03:06)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Gina (03:09)

I got vanilla ice cream and a box

Kathryn (03:12)

Okay.

Gina (03:12)

of chocolates, of which one of the chocolates is a hazelnut praline in the shape

of a heart. So just gonna drop that right in there, and now it's praline ice cream.

Kathryn (03:20)

Yes.

I have also been busy here at the Phil Kathryn Spooky and Cinnamon household. so

Gina (03:28)

Mm.

Kathryn (03:29)

I have this really beautiful box of chocolates that my very good friend Gina got me.

Gina (03:35)

I recognize that. Huh?

Kathryn (03:37)

good thing for me, I eat things very slowly, so I still have plenty of these left. it also had a heart chocolate in it.

But I used it for a spell, which fun fact,

Gina (03:49)

Mm.

Kathryn (03:50)

you can incorporate eating chocolate into your spells.

it was the heart one. So honestly, kinda delighted that you have a heart chocolate right now. okay.

Gina (03:58)

Should we consume

some chocolate together Okay. Cheers.

Kathryn (04:01)

Yes, absolutely. Let see. I

can't get it out of the box. Cheers.

Gina (04:06)

Ha.

Kathryn (04:08)

Delectable.

Gina (04:10)

Chocolate.

Kathryn (04:11)

So good.

Where'd you get this again? Where were you? Bruges.

Gina (04:14)

It was

in Ghent, I think.

Kathryn (04:16)

Okay.

Gina (04:17)

I think I couldn't possibly remember where I was on my travels, Kathryn. I have no idea I was bopping around Europe.

Kathryn (04:19)

No good no who knows I have no idea. All over the place, yes, yes.

Speaking of travels, I was in Detroit this weekend.

Gina (04:30)

Ooh, how was Detroit?

Kathryn (04:32)

Detroit. It's simply lovely. I love I love the D. It's so good. Highly recommend.

Gina (04:38)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (04:40)

Honestly, so we have a lot of listeners in the Michigan slash specifically Metro Detroit region. shout out to you all because I love that city. It's so good.

my mom grew up there, but all of my family lives sprinkled throughout Michigan. No one lives in the city anymore. so I've never spent any measurable valuable time there. Phil and I have been trying to do a long weekend in Detroit for literally about six years, and the curse always gets us. He every single time we plan a trip,

he gets sick. This time his hand was only mildly broken, so we were able to do it.

Gina (05:24)

He he only had a little bit of hand surgery, so he was fine.

Kathryn (05:26)

He had a small

fracture. His pins have been taken out, so he was healthy enough to travel.

We just

Gina (05:31)

Hmm.

Kathryn (05:33)

had the best time. We were there for Iggy Pop slash my chemical romance concert at the ballpark. It was so much fun. One of the best concerts I've ever been to. It was so good. but yeah, and then we just spent the rest of the time bumming around Detroit. highly recommend, if nothing else, if anyone out there has

But one thing to do while in Detroit, go to Mudgies and get a sandwich. It was the best sandwich I've ever

Gina (06:01)

Tell me

Kathryn (06:01)

had in my entire life.

I got what was called the mayor, which was it was a hot sandwich on

I think I don't know what kind of bread. Delicious bread. And

Gina (06:11)

Yeah.

Kathryn (06:11)

it was turkey with salami and like a chipotle mayo with banana peppers.

Gina (06:20)

Ooh.

Kathryn (06:21)

So good. I can never find turkey and salami anywhere. Everyone always, always, always does ham and salami. No one ever does turkey and salami. Mudgies does though. And they had homemade pickles.

an enchilada soup. It was so good. Highly recommend.

Gina (06:38)

I love a turkey

and salam whenever Tom and I make sandwiches at home we do turkey and salami. Yeah, it's the best.

Kathryn (06:42)

Me too! I so many people

do. It's so good. And restaurants never do it. Ever. Mudgies does. Yeah.

Gina (06:48)

Mm. Yeah, it is always the ham. Well, damn, I need to go to Mudgies, all right.

Detroit is on the short list of places Tom and I might move when we move to the States someday. So we could just spend our

Kathryn (06:59)

My God, yes.

Gina (07:00)

retirement years. You're my retirement years, I don't care what Tom and Phil do. We can go to Mudgies. Every day.

Kathryn (07:04)

Yeah. Every day. my god. Wait, I would love if you moved to Detroit

because then I could just hit up you and my family and like all in one.

Gina (07:12)

And Detroit

style pizza.

Kathryn (07:15)

Yeah.

They're also the world headquarters of Little Caesars Pizza. Everyone's favorite late night college snack.

I made Phil take a

Gina (07:20)

Well thank God you

Kathryn (07:24)

I made Phil take a picture in front of the headquarters. I was a little bit

Gina (07:31)

You

Kathryn (07:32)

drunk. I was a little drunk. It was like

Gina (07:37)

Drunk Kathryn is so

Kathryn (07:39)

it was we had she had a great time this weekend, guys. and

Gina (07:41)

Ha ha ha

Kathryn (07:42)

then we ordered

Late night, 'cause we got home from the concert. We got back to the hotel room around like one. little before one. So there was just enough time to order Happy's pizza, which I think is only a Michigan thing. Very good. Also very good. Yeah. Man, I can't wait for you to move to Detroit.

Gina (07:56)

I've never had it. Okay. man, I want pizza now.

Maybe, maybe Detroit, we don't know. Although

Kathryn (08:04)

Hehehehehe

Gina (08:06)

the short list is getting shorter, so we'll see.

We finished Widow's Bay last night. That's my update for you. Mm-hmm. Very much enjoyed

Kathryn (08:12)

Did you? Tell me more.

Gina (08:15)

it. I love the way season one ended, and I'm very excited for season two.

Kathryn (08:19)

Okay, I love that because I liked it less and less the more I watched. Yeah.

Gina (08:23)

Really? I really liked it.

Kathryn (08:26)

But it's because I'm taking it personally because it's

It's shot so dark that we had to watch several scenes over again. I just take that personally.

The story's good, I think. I couldn't see half of what was going on. Like the like the note that he writes to that guy, literally no idea what it said. No clue. Yeah, I we

Gina (08:43)

Mm. Mm. really? okay.

Kathryn (08:48)

couldn't see it. It was too dark.

and that's why I do partially blame my TV because word on the street is other people can see it. Just

Gina (08:57)

Mm.

Kathryn (08:58)

literally no, we tried every setting. I rewatched that note scene six times on six different settings and we couldn't see it because it was too dark. I don't know. Yeah.

Gina (09:06)

Well, damn. I'm

so sorry.

Did you ever are you a fan of the show like the monster one? The one that covered like the Menendez brothers and Ed Gein?

Kathryn (09:18)

I'm not a Ryan Murphy fan.

Gina (09:20)

Okay.

Kathryn (09:21)

I'm not into like the grotesque horror style, which is like his whole deal. I'm not like anti-Ryan Murphy. I feel like Ryan Murphy's like a polarizing, like you either love his shows or you hate them. They're just like not for me.

Gina (09:35)

Yeah, I only I watched a few episodes of the Ed Gein one and I didn't th

Kathryn (09:38)

Yeah.

Gina (09:38)

it Charlie Hunnam's voice in that made me so uncomfortable that I had to stop watching. But I asked.

Kathryn (09:42)

really?

Gina (09:43)

Yeah, in part because horror TV shows. And also

Kathryn (09:46)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (09:46)

the new season is about Lizzie Borden and it comes

Kathryn (09:49)

I learned

Gina (09:50)

out this month.

Kathryn (09:51)

I learned that today and I was wondering if you were gonna bring it up. Yeah. Yeah. Is this yeah,

Gina (09:53)

Really? Uhhuh. Yeah. I feel I felt like I have to. Yeah.

Kathryn (09:58)

is this our perfect transition?

Gina (10:00)

It might be

in perfect transition.

Kathryn (10:01)

It must be.

Gina (10:04)

so I don't know if you knew about this, Kathryn, but apparently when you start a spooky podcast, you are legally required to do an episode about Lizzie Borden at some point. It is, yeah. And I, as you know,

Kathryn (10:12)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is in the contract. Mm-hmm.

Gina (10:17)

am nothing if not a staunch lover and respecter of the law. So I will be performing

Kathryn (10:20)

Always.

Gina (10:21)

my civic duty today. since this episode is coming out during our axe murderers month,

I'm sure it will be no surprise that today's content warning does include axe murder. I think we can probably say as a blanket statement for the rest of the month, be warned. That's what we're gonna be talking

Kathryn (10:37)

Yes.

Gina (10:37)

about. In this specific story, though, I do have to immediately admit that I'm a little bit off theme, because the murders we're gonna talk about today were not axe murders. They never officially found the murder weapon, but we're pretty darn sure it was a hatchet. So deepest apologies for this technicality.

I promise I might consider doing better sometime. But anyway, let's talk about the Lizzie Borden case. This story is one that has been told 10 billion times in 10 billion ways, mainly because there's just so much to it. There's all sorts of wild speculation and theories about this case that you can get into. I am gonna put some resources for those in the show notes if you want to learn more. But for today, I wanna keep it focused on Lizzie herself.

Because the more I researched this, the more I realized that I was wrong in a lot of what I thought I knew about her. And I love when that happens. So I want to share what I learned.

Kathryn (11:36)

I'm excited to see how you tell it because I've heard the story a billion times and I don't think two tellings have ever been the same.

Gina (11:44)

We'll see how it goes. if it's great,

Kathryn (11:46)

Ha ha ha.

Gina (11:47)

tell me. If it's not, keep that to yourself. That's not my business.

Kathryn (11:52)

None of my business.

Gina (11:54)

All right, so around 10:30 a.m. on Thursday, August 4th, 1892, Lizzie Borden was bored. She didn't feel very well for one thing. She, her dad, her stepmom, and their maid had all been sick over the last few days. Lizzie had slept in that morning. She could barely stomach breakfast when she did get up. And so when it came time to do chores, Lizzie picked the easiest ones she could.

Mending a bit of clothing, ironing some handkerchiefs, real easy, low effort stuff. And while she was waiting for those irons to heat up, she wandered out to her family's barn in the backyard. She picked some pears from the pear tree, munching on them while she wandered around the barn's loft, passing the time checking on the fishing lines they kept in there. After about 20 to 30 minutes, she wandered back into the house to check on the irons. And about 10 minutes later,

The family's maid, Bridget, heard Lizzie scream. Bridget had been upstairs taking a nap, but when she heard Lizzie, she bolted up and ran downstairs to see what was wrong. She found Lizzie backed up against the house's screen door. Lizzie looked at her, frantic, and told Bridget to go get a doctor because something was wrong with her father. As far as Bridget knew, Andrew Borden, Lizzie's father and the head of the household, was taking a nap in the sitting room.

She tried dipping her head around the corner to check on him, but Lizzie yelled at her to stop. She needed to leave and get a doctor immediately. Bridget ran outside, because handily enough the doctor lived across the street, and within the hour the house was filled with people. The doctor, neighbors, police, the county medical examiner, and a reporter who the police had allowed inside.

Within hours, the first newspaper report hit the stands. There was a murderer on the loose. Andrew's body was still on the sitting room couch. His head and face had been destroyed by a series of ten to eleven strikes that looked like they had been made by a hatchet. Detectives estimated that he died around eleven AM, right when Lizzie claimed she came back in from the barn, and when Bridget claimed she went upstairs to take a nap.

At this point, they had not found Lizzie's stepmother Abby just yet. Lizzie claimed that she hadn't seen Abby in hours. She said she had gone out after receiving a note, and as far as Lizzie knew, she hadn't come back. Eventually, Abby's body was found in the upstairs guest room, and just like Andrew, the cause of death was obvious. She had been struck in the head 17 to 18 times.

Detectives estimated that Abby was killed 30 minutes to two hours before Andrew, placing her time of death between 9 and 10 30 in the morning. And the list of suspects immediately started to shrink. Lizzie's 41-year-old sister Emma, who also lived in the house, was out of town. Lizzie's uncle John, who had stayed the night the night before the murder, was out visiting family in Fall River, airtight alibi.

Plus, the Borden home was unique in that it didn't really have hallways. All of the rooms were just connected to each other, meaning that it would be very difficult, not impossible, but difficult, for a murderer to get in and out undetected. Two people who were in the home that we know of at the time of the murders were Lizzie and Bridget, the maid. Both seemed innocent. They weren't covered in blood like you would expect someone to be after a crime like this.

They both seemed upset, both women seemed shocked, and crucially, both of them were women. And at the time, a woman committing such violent murders was absolutely unthinkable. That is, until Lizzie started correcting the police officers. For context, Lizzie was known to be a very straightforward, very literal person, and it sometimes came across as rude.

To me, reading transcriptions of conversations with Lizzie, it seemed like she just struggled with social cues, and she took words and questions at face value and returned them in kind. And sometimes, it would come across to them as if she was being too direct or even brusque. So, for example, when the officers were searching the Borden home, they asked Lizzie some questions. One of them started with something like.

Has your father or mother ever blah blah blah but before the investigator could finish asking the question, Lizzie interrupted and said she's not my mother, she's my stepmother. My own mother is dead.

Later in their conversation, she corrected him again. At one point, the investigator said, You said this morning you were up in the barn for half an hour. Do you say that now? Lizzie replied, I don't say half an hour, I say twenty minutes to half an hour. The investigator said, Well, we'll call it twenty minutes then, to which Lizzie responded, I say twenty minutes to half an hour, sir. And the fact that she had interrupted him and corrected him was

Basically caused him to think that she was a bitch. And on top of that, she did seem upset, but she wasn't crying. And he found that very suspicious. And he wasn't the only one. One of the other officers on the scene, a guy named Philip Harrington, literally said, quote, I don't like that girl. Under the circumstances, she does not act in a manner to suit me.

Kathryn (17:36)

Cool. Well, then she's guilty.

Gina (17:38)

Mm. Right.

It feels pertinent to point out that Lizzie was not a girl, she was in her thirties.

Kathryn (17:46)

I always forget that. Honestly, thank you for saying that because I do Yeah, I do always forget that the way people like talk about this case. It seems like she's

Gina (17:55)

Right.

Kathryn (17:55)

like fourteen, fifteen years old.

Gina (17:57)

And it's when I was researching this, I was like, damn, she's like right in between mine and Kathryn's ages. Like smack in the middle of us almost.

Kathryn (18:02)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Gina (18:04)

it's weird to be at the age where she was or thereabouts, because

Kathryn (18:08)

How old are you? I'm like roughly a Lizzie Borden-ish. Give or take a view.

Gina (18:15)

I'm gonna start telling people that. You know Lizzie Borden, right? Well

So officers naturally start searching the house for any clues they can find. And they did find multiple potential murder weapons, mainly in the cellar. They found a hatchet that had some hair on it and a substance that might have been blood. And they also found a hatchet head that had been broken off the handle

recently enough that the break in the wood still looked fresh. You know how you can tell because like the inside of the wood is a lighter color, it was like that kind

Kathryn (18:48)

Yeah.

Gina (18:48)

of thing. They took both.

Hatchets, well actually, I think there were like four total. They took a lot of stuff away for testing. And they also took anything else they thought might be useful. but they very, very likely missed some extremely important evidence because the crime scene was very badly mishandled. And I'm not saying that from a 2026 perspective, I'm saying that from an 1890s perspective. Both Andrew and Abby's bodies were moved before a photographer could take pictures.

Abby's clothes were readjusted to sit more modestly on her body. Neither Lizzie nor Bridget were checked for bloodstains, and that lack of thoroughness followed them into other areas of the house as well. For example, officers were given all of the keys to everything in the house so that they could do a search, and there was this one, like particular trunk that they couldn't get open.

And they started getting all riled up about it because they thought, one of these women is hiding something. They don't want us to have a key to be able to open this trunk. Da da da. Started getting all pissed. And one of the women had to point out that the key to the trunk was tied to the trunk. They had just missed that somehow. And multiple officers had taken a go at trying to open this thing, and they had all missed it. So

Kathryn (20:03)

Co. Co- Co.

Gina (20:05)

not the brightest bulbs were on the scene.

Plus, a substantial proportion of the police department was absent that day because it coincided with the police department's annual visit to an amusement park.

Some newspapers estimated that half of the police force was gone, some said 80% was gone. Either way, the Fall River Police Department was not at its best while it was investigating the murders of Abby and Andrew Borden. But that didn't stop people from talking, it didn't stop officers from saying they didn't like that girl, and it didn't stop a newspaper article from running the next morning, literally with the headline, Suspecting the Daughter Lizzie.

Kathryn (20:48)

I'm I like have responses but also nothing to say, you know?

Gina (20:53)

It's a very trial by newspaper kind of story, which I didn't realize

Kathryn (20:57)

Mm.

Gina (20:58)

how big of a role the media played in the Lizzie Borden case. Massive turns out. But before we get into the media coverage of it all, I do need to touch on one incident that took place the night of the murders, because it gets brought up a lot.

So by that evening, Lizzie's sister Emma had come home after receiving the news.

And their friend, Alice Russell, was gonna stay the night in the house with them to keep them company, because it's scary to sleep in a house where two of your family members have just been brutally murdered. So Alice was gonna stay, keep them company, offer some support. They had officers stationed outside the house just in case, and around bedtime, one of the officers saw Alice and Lizzie go down to the cellar together to throw away what was essentially bath water.

They had a sink in the cellar, and so they were just pouring it down the drain. Shortly after they went up, the officer saw Lizzie come back down alone and kind of hunch over the sink for a few minutes. And this was later used in like a what suspicious thing was she doing by the sink kind of way. And one thing that I do believe adds a helpful bit of context here is that.

That Lizzie was on her period at this time, and the women kept their period supplies in the cellar. And we know this because Lizzie had been washing menstrual cloths down there in the days leading up to the murders. So personally, I think it's very likely she was just doing a little feminine hygiene routine. Obviously, we will never know, but

Kathryn (22:28)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (22:29)

like I said, the situation gets brought up all the time, and the period thing gets brought up all the time, but they're not always talked about together, and I think they're probably related.

Anyway,

Kathryn (22:39)

Yeah.

Gina (22:39)

back to the media coverage,

The day after the murders, Lizzie and Emma posted a $5,000 reward for any information about whoever this killer was. Today, that would be about $180,000 or £134,000.

It was a lot of money.

Quote, with that, the Borden Sisters elevated every citizen to detective, judge, and jury. Literally the same day that reward got posted, people started mobbing the Borden family home. Some say it was hundreds of people, some say it was well over a thousand. And pretty much immediately, every move the Borden Sisters made started getting dissected by the press. For example,

While the sisters were in mourning, the papers took a particular interest in Lizzie's outfits, which Victorian morning attire was like a whole thing. There was a very prescribed way you were supposed to dress when you were grieving someone, depending on your relationship with the person that died, to the point where literally because Lizzie wore black silk instead of black wool, the newspapers treated her like she wore a neon green bikini. It was like media uproar

Lizzie was asked about this and responded by essentially saying, My dad and stepmom were just violently killed. I don't fucking care about hats and fabric right now. And also, she explained that her dad thought the whole morning attire custom stuff was silly and didn't abide by it. And so, of course, when he's the one that died, she's not gonna buy traditions that he wouldn't have in life. But still, the media printed it, and people used it as fuel in

The Lizzie did it fire. And in the absence of a clear motive for why Lizzie would kill Andrew and Abby, they began speculating. And this is where I found out I was wrong about a bunch of stuff.

Kathryn (24:34)

Ooh, okay.

Gina (24:36)

So, one thing that people thought, which many people still say to this day, is that Lizzie killed them for money. At the time that he died,

Andrew was worth about half a million dollars, which today would be about 18 million But it's worth noting that Lizzie also had a bunch of her own money. The day the murders took place, her bank balance was around $2,800, which today would be over $100,000 or around £75,000. And that doesn't include things like stocks and shares and other illiquid assets that she had.

So that doesn't mean that she's innocent, but I think it's important context to have because people who bring this up usually try and make it seem like Lizzie was living as a pauper There's also this really common misconception that Andrew was really oppressively frugal.

And like he wouldn't even fork out for indoor plumbing, and he forced the family to live on the bad part of town, and the girls resented him for it. But none of that is actually true. It's just a byproduct of the sensational news coverage at the time. The Borden home did have indoor plumbing, for one thing. It was just in the downstairs portion of the house. And actually, the house also had central heating, which was considered this massive luxury at the time.

And the Bordens didn't live in a bad part of town by any stretch of the imagination. They just didn't live in like the Soho of Fall River, a place up on the hill, quote unquote. Andrew was actually really generous with money when it came to his daughters. He paid for Lizzie to go on a nearly five-month-long vacation in Europe. He paid for Emma to go to seminary school. He bought them all sorts of fine clothing, sealskin capes, he gave them a weekly allowance.

And as a property developer, he once sold them a house for a dollar, which today is like thirty bucks.

Kathryn (26:26)

Well that's nice. Damn, I didn't know that either.

Gina (26:28)

Right.

Actually, there is there is more backstory to the selling them a house for a dollar thing because it gets into Emma and Lizzie's relationship with their stepmom Abby. And that relationship had never been a great one. When their birth mother died, Lizzie was two years old and Emma

was 12. There's a pretty big age gap between the two. Three years later, Andrew married Abby. And by all accounts, Abby wasn't like a wicked stepmom or anything like that.

Just not super affectionate, maybe a little bit fickle. There were a few people who testified that Lizzie thought she was two-faced, which to me kind of comes across as like just an annoying, you're not my real mom type of vibe. Anyway, Abby was really, really close with her half-sister, who was a chick named Bertie. And Bertie lived in a house nearby the Borden home-ish with her husband and her mom.

It was like Bertie and her husband owned half of this house, Bertie's mom owned the other half, kind of thing. And in the 1880s, the mom decided she wanted to move out for some reason. And Bertie and her husband were like, shit, we can't afford to buy your half of the house. Like, we're gonna lose our home. So Abby heard about this. Abby had a word with Andrew, and suddenly Andrew bought the house and

Put Abby's name on the deed, or he liked bought the share of the house that the mom would have left vacant. That way, Bertie and her husband wouldn't lose their home and they wouldn't go broke trying to buy it. It was a very generous thing for him to do. But for whatever reason, Lizzie and Emma found out about this through the rumor mill. I think Lizzie would later say they heard about it from quote outsiders. We don't know exactly who told them about it.

Or what they were told happened, but it turned into a really big issue for Lizzie and Emma. Because it's important to keep in mind that by this point they were adults. I think Lizzie was like late 20s, Emma was mid-30s. And according to a New York Times article about them, they were quote, too old for college, too old to marry, and too highborn to work. Meaning that their dad's money was pretty much all the money they had, and it was all the money they were going to have.

So they took it as a threat against their inheritance. And we think this situation is what caused Lizzie to stop calling Abby mother and start referring to her as Mrs. Borden, which is another thing that gets used against Lizzie a lot. Anyway, the situation with Andrew selling Lizzie and Emma a house for a dollar.

He wound up doing that to let Lizzie and Emma collect rent money on that property. He basically gave them a way to make money outside of the inheritance. They wound up selling it back to him a few years later for quite a bit of money, and that's why Lizzie and Emma were pretty independently well-off, as well as a wealthy family unit. A lot of people point to the house drama stuff as the reason Lizzie might have killed Abby. This is always like the one motive that gets brought up for it.

But in my opinion, there was just way more to it than that. Throughout the course of the trial and investigation, multiple witnesses attest to the relationship being strained well before this incident. And it wasn't just Lizzie's relationship with Abby, but Emma's relationship with her as well. Lizzie was just the least afraid of talking about the tension, which is a big reason why she became suspect number one, both to the investigators, but also the public. She just said what was on her mind,

And it's probably also prudent to point out there were other things that made Lizzie look pretty guilty as well, especially two things. The first is that a local drugstore clerk claimed that Lizzie had tried to buy hydrogen cyanide from him only one day before Abby and Andrew were killed. So the thought was like,

maybe Lizzie was trying to poison them, and then when she couldn't get the poison, she decided to kill them with a hatchet. But it is worth noting that this clerk had never seen Lizzie in person before.

He only knew of the woman in the shop by the name Miss Borden, and there were 125 other Borden families in Fall River at the time. It was a very common name, so it could be mistaken identity.

Kathryn (30:43)

wow.

Gina (30:44)

Mm-hmm. And when he did see Lizzie later on during legal proceedings, that's when he was like, yeah, her, it was totally her. But to be fair, like

That kind of thing is famously unreliable. They had us play around with facial recognition stuff in a forensics class I took in high school, and it's way harder than you would think it is to remember what somebody looks like. The human brain is just bad at it.

Kathryn (31:07)

yeah, that's like I could be wrong, but like I feel like they don't really use eyewitness testimonies that much anymore. Like for that reason.

Gina (31:18)

that's why you don't see like the lineups happen anymore, because people

Kathryn (31:20)

Mm.

Gina (31:21)

just pick they don't remember what people look like. They just pick the wrong person.

Kathryn (31:23)

Yeah,

that's famously unreliable.

Gina (31:27)

Mm-hmm. But some people still bought it, and they still buy it today, that this whole poisoning thing was going on. Also, separately at the time, do have to mention there was a sting operation going on where two women were going around to different drugstores trying to buy things they shouldn't be able to, like, for example, hydrogen cyanide. It was like a secret shopper situation. So it could have also been one

of those ladies.

Kathryn (31:53)

That's wild. I didn't know that.

Gina (31:56)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, one of the newspapers,

said something about how it couldn't have been one of the sting operation ladies because she looked nothing like Lizzie Borden. But I don't know if I 100%

Kathryn (32:05)

Yeah.

Gina (32:06)

buy that, yeah. and it was, I should say, it was legal to buy hydrogen cyanide, but not from a clerk.

I think you had to buy it from an actual like a pharmacist or a druggist or something like that. So it wasn't illegal

Kathryn (32:17)

Okay.

Gina (32:17)

to purchase, but the way they were trying to purchase it was not allowed. comes back later, which is why I bring it up. Okay, so

Kathryn (32:23)

Okay.

Gina (32:23)

the second thing that made Lizzie look really guilty is that just a few days after Abby and Andrew were killed, Lizzie burned one of her dresses. According to later testimony, Emma is actually the one who told Lizzie to do this.

Apparently one of Lizzie's dresses had house paint on it, like in a non-fixable, this stain is not coming out kind of way. And so Emma was like, just, you know, fucking burn it. Just get rid of it. We can't use it, can't fix it, burn it. And so Lizzie did. And when that came out later, it made people wonder, what if that's the dress she wore at the time of the murders and she was burning it to hide the evidence? It is worth noting.

That witnesses would later testify they didn't see any blood on the dress whatsoever, let alone the amount you would expect to see after someone hatchets someone to death. But still, the fact that she burned a dress was not a good look. So by this point, a few days had passed with no arrest, and the people of Fall River started grumbling that if Lizzie's dad hadn't been a rich guy, she would have already been arrested.

The police, for their part, were under a lot of pressure to catch the killer and to do it quickly. And so without any direct evidence tying Lizzie to the crime, they got a warrant for her arrest. But before they arrested her, they brought her in for an inquest hearing. Which was a very, very odd

choice, because inquests are for situations where there's a suspicious death and you need to rule whether or not it was probably a murder.

Because then that dictates how you proceed legally moving forward. But in Abby and Andrew's case, they were very clearly murdered. And so why the inquest? Like, why do we need to establish these people were murdered when they got hatchet wounds in the head? Like clearly somebody did

Kathryn (34:14)

Yeah.

Gina (34:15)

this, especially when they already had a warrant for Lizzie's arrest.

Kathryn (34:18)

yeah. That so I w honestly wanted to ask if I heard that correctly, because that doesn't make sense. Interesting.

Gina (34:25)

No, it doesn't make

sense. Mm-hmm. Some people say that they did this in order to get testimony out of Lizzie without the protection of her lawyer. Because she did have a lawyer, it was a family friend, but he was not allowed in the room for the inquest.

Lizzie is not the only one they got testimony from at the hearing. They also got testimony from the maid, Bridget. Bridget went first. Lizzie was out of the room. She didn't hear Bridget's testimony. And Bridget gave a very confident, very tied together account of

Where she was and what she was doing on the day that Abby and Andrew were murdered. Lizzie, when it was her turn, did not. Her story and Bridget's had major conflicts in them, especially about what Lizzie was doing when her father came home. According to Bridget, when Andrew came home, she heard Lizzie's laugh coming from upstairs. At this point, Abby would have already been dead, so if that's true and Lizzie was up there, that doesn't look very good.

But according to Lizzie, she had been in the kitchen. But after more questions, Lizzie said that she wasn't sure where she was. Maybe she was upstairs, or maybe she was in the dining room. And over the course of the 850 questions asked of Lizzie, she got very tangled up in the story.

Reading the transcripts, just to me, it seems like she got overwhelmed about remembering where she was at exact precise moments, and defining those precise moments became very hard for her. Because when you're asked about what you were doing when someone came home, what does came home mean to you? Is it when they opened the door? Is it when they stepped inside? Was it when her dad

went into the next room to start taking a nap because all of those things fit within the category of, you know, the first few minutes after he came home, but Lizzie was doing stuff all around the house 'cause she was doing chores at the time. And so it's hard for her to say where she was, because where does come home end? You know what I mean?

Kathryn (36:23)

Absolutely. This is my biggest anxiety,

God, I hope I'm never questioned for anything because

I don't know what I was doing an hour and a half ago, let

Gina (36:33)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (36:33)

alone I don't know. I feel like this is and this is just me. I don't I don't know. iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com Do you know where you are every single second of every day? I was like,

Gina (36:46)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (36:47)

unless it's general, like that, unless it's like super general and I can be like, I was at home. I don't know which room I was in at what minute, you know? Like

this is where I get like weird about stuff like this. if you were doing something bad, you would more likely know where you were at any given point because timing would be important. If you don't know where you are in those those moments, it's probably because they were insignificant moments to you at the time. So why would you know?

But that makes you look guilty if you don't know where you were. That doesn't compute to me.

Gina (37:24)

Yeah. Especially

Kathryn (37:24)

I don't know.

Gina (37:25)

when you give testimony right after someone who can tell you where they were at every single second. Yeah. And another thing

Kathryn (37:30)

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Gina (37:33)

I I was thinking about when I was reading like her testimony in this part is she like had food poisoning that day and was on her period. And you know when you just feel like absolute

Kathryn (37:43)

my god.

Gina (37:44)

garbage and all of the minutes just blend together because you're just trying

Kathryn (37:47)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (37:47)

to get through the day so you can go back to bed. And also it was a hot day outside at the time. I think it was like

Upper 70s, lower 80s. So it was just kind of a gross, horrible day. That why would you want to remember what you were doing? Like I wouldn't

Kathryn (38:00)

Yeah.

Gina (38:00)

pay attention.

Kathryn (38:01)

Yeah, I would have no idea. No clue.

Gina (38:04)

Me neither.

probably worth noting that Lizzie was also on morphine when she gave this testimony.

Kathryn (38:12)

Good.

Gina (38:14)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. by our standards, she was not on a crazy high dose. I think it equates to about 16 milligrams, which I've never taken morphine, so I don't know. I read that that is not crazy high. But a few days before the inquests, her doctor had doubled her dose from eight to sixteen. So I imagine if there were side effects, she might be feeling them more keenly at this moment. And one of those side effects is confusion.

So there's speculation that it impacted her ability to give accurate testimony, and that's why she got so confused and couldn't give very direct answers. But regardless, the inquest was an abject disaster for Lizzie, and it resulted in her being formally arrested for murder. And in 1890s, Massachusetts, the only possible outcome of a murder conviction was the death sentence.

Lizzie wound up remaining in custody for ten months while she waited for her trial, and naturally, the press reported on every second of her life behind bars that they could. But they were starting to run into a problem, because Lizzie wasn't really doing much in jail,

so there wasn't much to write about, and the public was ravenous for Lizzie Borden News.

And so a lot of outlets started using less than credible sources and publishing less than credible stories. And this is where the rumors about Lizzie Borden and her relationship with her other family members really started to go wild. Like they were already there before people have been speculating for like ever, but this is when they really pop off. And we still see the echoes of a lot of these rumors in the stories that we tell about the Borden family even now.

So for example, there's a rumor that Lizzie told her dad that she hoped he would die. She basically said, like, I hope you come home a corpse. And the source for this information was so tangential. It was like a friend of a friend's friend's friend kind of thing. It was so

it was yeah, it was like a banking clerk told a stove salesman, who told a sailor at the docks, who told like

Unconnected people who had nothing to do with the Borden family. That was the chain that this went through. But society wanted there to be a big dramatic falling out, like an emotional smoking gun. And the New York Times is the one who printed this story. And so people believed it because they thought it was a credible source.

And again and again and again, the stories kept coming back to Lizzie Borden doesn't seem sad enough.

She's not reacting the way that we think we would react, and therefore she must be guilty.

Kathryn (41:54)

Feel like everything you're saying, I would absolutely be arrested for murder. Because I I totally get that. I am very much like I've knock on wood. Thank the goddess. I've never been in a situation where like I have to react to a murder. But knowing how I react to like very high emotional.

stressful things, I don't think I'd be sitting there crying. I I think that I would be frozen. Like I am very

Gina (42:24)

Mm.

Kathryn (42:25)

I mean you've seen me in stressful situations. get very robotic and just very okay what's next? Like what ha I just freeze. Like I don't show a lot of emotion. whenever things like that are part of a story and part of quote unquote proof why someone did something I'm like

Feel like that's just emotions on overload, you know? It's kind of the same experience as when why people laugh at funerals. It's like your body is literally

Gina (42:50)

Mm.

Kathryn (42:50)

preserving itself and like protecting itself from the emotions. Like I'm gonna go crying private, but like if things if I'm being questioned, I don't know if I would be like blubbering. I feel like I would be so scared and sad that my body would just be like beep bop boop, you know.

Gina (43:07)

Yeah. Well, I think it's like the you you don't know how you're gonna react until you're in that situation.

Kathryn (43:11)

Exactly, yes.

Gina (43:13)

And it what's interesting about the Lizzie Borden case is that people's opinions on it are so well documented. And so we can point

Kathryn (43:20)

Yeah.

Gina (43:21)

to evidence in black and white that they kept moving the goalposts for her. Like there was,

Kathryn (43:25)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (43:26)

you know, in one instance there was someone who said something about like, well, clearly she's guilty because when she found her father's body, she didn't rush to his side and try and save him.

And then the next person literally says, well, clearly she's guilty because when she saw her father's body, she didn't run out of the house screaming. Two completely different actions, but you know what I mean? Like there is no

Kathryn (43:47)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Gina (43:49)

correct way to react to this. People just wanted to think she was guilty, and so they thought she was guilty. And another thing in her defense, she did show emotion. Like she did cry. She was

Not okay on the day where they found the bodies. She had to be taken into a separate room. She had one of her neighbors and her friend Alice there tending to her, making sure she was okay. She was not well. But because she wasn't crying, screaming, hysterical for hours and hours and hours, it wasn't good enough.

Kathryn (44:18)

yeah, I'm so sick of people acting like sadness is the only emotion. When people say, they

didn't show emotion. Shock is an emotion. anger is an emotion. Like you can react a lot of different ways when a tragedy happens. It doesn't mean you're not feeling things, it just means

Gina (44:37)

Yeah.

Kathryn (44:38)

you're not blubbering.

Like there's

Gina (44:40)

Yeah.

Kathryn (44:41)

a lot of different emotions she would have been going through, or anyone would have been going

Gina (44:45)

A hundred percent.

Kathryn (44:46)

through. yeah, that's annoying to me.

Gina (44:49)

Yeah. And on top of that, like she was also a thirty something year old woman in Victorian society, which meant that being loudly emotional in public was not the

Kathryn (44:57)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (44:58)

done thing. And it's also just not who she was as a person. At the

Kathryn (45:02)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (45:02)

time that people

were saying all of this stuff, she said, quote, There is one thing that hurts me very much. They say I don't show any grief.

Certainly I don't in public, I never did reveal my feelings. I have tried hard to be brave and womanly through it all.

Kathryn (45:20)

I hear you, girlfriend. Yep. Yeah.

Gina (45:20)

It's the womanly.

You can't just react as a human, you have to react as a woman.

Kathryn (45:25)

Y yeah.

Which and even when she does, it's always wrong. Like you said earlier,

Gina (45:28)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (45:31)

everyone's like, Well, not like that.

Gina (45:33)

Yep, yeah. And it was everyone doing this. Like everyone had an opinion about it. As we saw, the police had an opinion about it, her friends and family had opinions about it, newspapers had an opinion about it. And so you can only imagine that made her retreat into herself even more. When people are telling you that you're feeling things wrong, well, fine, I'm gonna stop showing you that I'm feeling things, which just makes it worse. It's a vicious cycle.

Kathryn (45:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Gina (45:56)

So anyway, this trial is looming, and the prosecution.

was not feeling great about its chances. For one thing, the hatchet that they thought had human hair and blood on it. Turns out it was animal hair and the

red stuff wasn't blood, it was just like a stain. And for another thing, Andrew and Abby's bodies had been tested and there was no poison in their systems. Despite their earlier illness, it really was just like food poisoning from a bad piece of fish.

Multiple witnesses had also come forward saying that they had seen suspicious figures lurking around the Borden home in the hours leading up to the murders. And if that wasn't enough, Less than a week before the trial started, there was another murder in Fall River, and it was eerily similar to the murders of Abby and Andrew.

On May 31st, a 12-year-old boy came home to discover the body of his 22-year-old sister, Bertha, who had been struck in the head with an axe over 20 times. The police did not think this was connected to the Borden murders because Bertha's watch had been stolen along with some money, and so they were like, okay, this murder was motivated by theft, as opposed to the Borden murders, where nothing had been reported stolen. But the similarities between the cases

raised some questions that maybe Lizzie really didn't do it, and maybe the murderer was still out there. And so very quickly the police did arrest someone for this. He was a man named Jose Correa de Mello, and he was an immigrant from Portugal. And that's relevant because in 1890s Fall River, the immigrant population, and especially the Portuguese immigrant population, were blamed for pretty much everything. Even on the day of the Borden murders, a Portuguese man was reported to the police

just for asking for directions to New York City. And another one was brought in for questioning because he withdrew money from his bank account. An amount that today would equate to a couple of grand. And that made them suspicious.

So I'm not saying the authorities lied when they convicted Jose of the murder, but I will point out that he was denied a lawyer. He didn't speak English, so I'm not sure he stood much of a chance at defending himself. And after serving two decades of a lifelong prison sentence, he was pardoned and told to return to Portugal.

And never come back to America again. Why? Great question. We don't know.

Kathryn (48:23)

That was it. They just were

Gina (48:25)

That was it.

Kathryn (48:25)

like, Okay.

Gina (48:28)

Yep. There's speculation that he was released in part due to the activism around his case. The Fall River Portuguese community

Kathryn (48:34)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (48:35)

and the Portuguese community in general were massive advocates for him. They really rallied in support behind him. But as for an official reason why he was let go, we don't have one. Which begs the question if Jose really was innocent, could Lizzie have also been innocent and a killer walk free from all three crimes? I don't know.

Kathryn (48:57)

Who knows? Nobody knows.

Gina (48:58)

Yeah.

Anyway, but of course, by the time Lizzie's trial started, that hadn't happened yet. All they knew was that there was another murder, and it was very similar to the murder of the Bordens. And besides, a grand jury had already determined that Lizzie's case should

go to trial, so it was like too late to back out, we gotta push this thing through no matter what. And from June fifth to the twentieth, eighteen ninety three, the jury witnessed a very dramatic trial.

It was one where, quote, each time a witness was called, the evidence swung from one side to the other. For example, on one hand, a doctor testified that Abby and Andrew's wounds could have been inflicted by a woman. The murderer wasn't necessarily a man or someone super duper strong. But on the other hand, and put on your eighteen nineties hat while I tell you this, the way that Abby's body had been positioned.

They thought that her killer must have been standing like right over her while she was being attacked, like with their feet on either side of her body. And the idea of a woman standing like this was completely unbelievable. Quote, women did not even part their knees to ride horseback. Only a man, it was thought, would straddle his victim.

Kathryn (50:12)

Mm.

yes. Don't you know that

Gina (50:15)

Mm.

Kathryn (50:15)

our knees were glued together until twenty twenty five?

Gina (50:20)

I still reapply the super glue every morning, babe.

Kathryn (50:24)

Very vintage of you.

Gina (50:26)

yes. but yeah, I thought that was fucking hilarious, so I had to tell you about that. What are we gonna do? Who are we gonna convict? But the longer it went on, the more and more cracks started to show in the investigation. Two of the officers who had been at the scene that day.

Couldn't seem to agree on what weapons they had found in the house or the condition they had found these weapons in, or what they had done with these weapons after they had found them. Officers also denied seeing any footprints in the barn, contradicting Lizzie's claims that she was there while her father was killed. But two other witnesses testified that they had also been in the barn that morning. And the way the timeline worked out, an inspector entered the barn five minutes after those two witnesses left.

And he didn't see any footprints then either. So it's possible that they just missed Lizzie's the way they missed the other two guys. Side note, it was this is kind of a funny story. The two witnesses who were in the barn, it was like these two teenage boys who, when they saw the commotion at the Borden house, they wandered over, because you know, internet didn't exist, latchkey kids. They wandered over and they were like, Hey, can we come in the house? And the police were like, No, get out of here. And so the boys were like, Okay.

Kathryn (51:40)

Yeah.

Gina (51:40)

And then they broke into the barn and went up to the loft to go quote murderer hunting.

Kathryn (51:47)

Yeah. Yeah, I could see that. Cool.

Gina (51:50)

And then they left. Yep. So anyway. A

particularly dramatic moment in the trial came when Lizzie fainted after catching a glimpse of her dad and stepmother's skulls, which were being used as evidence. And the fact that she fainted was a very, very big deal, especially in the press, because before this the papers had been reporting on her as quote, a sphinx of coolness, never manifesting feminine feeling.

But now that she had fainted, they had proof that she was a woman.

Kathryn (52:26)

what did you say? A sphinx what? Sphinx of cool coolness?

Gina (52:29)

A sphinx of coolness.

Kathryn (52:32)

I love that so much. I will only answer to that now. my god, wait. Yes, merge. Ice cream

Gina (52:36)

T shirt merch.

Kathryn (52:40)

usecreen pod at gmail.com. Should we do that? I love that.

Gina (52:43)

Merch, merch, merge. Okay, this could be a good one too.

Here, I'll read you this extra. So this came from another

Kathryn (52:49)

Okay.

Gina (52:49)

paper. So this was like after she fainted. Since her fainting yesterday, she is regarded as being full of startling possibilities.

Kathryn (52:58)

Full of startling Yes.

Wow. Yes to all of the On the back.

Gina (53:04)

Okay, Sphinx of Coolness on the front, full of sp startling possibilities on the back.

Kathryn (53:11)

Yeah, I would buy that.

Gina (53:13)

So basically this whole trial was kind of just a giant fucking mess, especially for the prosecution. And to add on to that, Lizzie's inquest testimony where she kept contradicting herself was not allowed into evidence, with the argument being it was a breach of her constitutional right to remain silent. And the testimony from the drugstore clerk saying that she had tried to buy hydrogen cyanide wasn't admitted either.

Because, buying hydrogen cyanide is not a crime. And the judge was like, nah, she could have even if it was her, she could have been using it to like kill rats or something like that. Like there's no proof that she was gonna use it

Kathryn (53:48)

Yeah.

Gina (53:48)

to kill people. And when it was the defense's turn, their argument was basically this. There was no murder weapon. There was no clear motive. The prosecution hadn't even tried to explain why Lizzie would kill her dad. There were opportunities for someone else to enter the house and commit the murders, and

Basically, the prosecution had failed to show beyond reasonable doubt that Lizzie had committed the crime. And so, on the 13th day of the trial, the jury deliberated for about an hour before delivering a verdict of not guilty. Lizzie and Emma were overcome with relief. When Lizzie heard the verdict, she dropped like a stone and burst into tears. Someone literally had to come and like help her stand.

And the crowds standing outside the courthouse cheered when they found out. But not everyone was on her side. The vast majority of society still believed that Lizzie was guilty, and news outlets continued to capitalize on that demand. As Lizzie went through the release process

and tried to settle back into normal life, the press just followed her everywhere. And when she was spotted in public, quote, shops and offices emptied into the streets to gawk.

This is in part because the police had decided not to continue investigating the Borden murders. And so with no one else to look at, the public just kept looking at her. And to make matters worse for Lizzie, a district attorney who was very involved with the prosecution sent a copy of her inquest testimony to the media where it was printed and consumed by the public, despite the fact that it was not allowed as evidence in the trial.

She tried to reclaim something of a personal life, like she would leave town when she wanted to go to church or do some shopping or things like that, but it only made like a fraction of a difference. And for the rest of Lizzie's life, someone was writing stories about her. Not long after the trial, Emma and Lizzie left the Borden house and moved into number seven French Street, aka Maplecroft. That's what Lizzie named it.

Kathryn (55:54)

That's an adorable name. I like that. But also like mildly spooky, very gothic. Mm-hmm.

Gina (55:59)

Right? Yeah, it's also apparently haunted

as fuck. I don't have time to get into it, but Maplecroft is apparently very haunted. Anyway, so Emma and Lizzie moved in there. They continued living there together for the next twelve years until one day Emma left. And we still don't really know why. In the one single interview that Emma ever granted to the press, she said that she stayed as long as she could until

Quote conditions became absolutely unbearable.

Kathryn (56:27)

Interesting.

Gina (56:28)

Interesting.

So it could have just been like, I've been living with my little sister for decades and I'm fucking

Kathryn (56:33)

Yeah.

Gina (56:34)

sick of her shit. Or s

Kathryn (56:36)

Yeah.

Gina (56:38)

some people thought that Lizzie had confessed her guilt to Emma, and that's what caused Emma to leave.

Kathryn (56:44)

that's a ginormous leap with no evidence. Like, you're living with your sister essentially your whole life, and you move out, no one knows why. Therefore, it's because there was a confession. There's an infinite number of other things that it could also be in addition to that. Like,

Gina (57:06)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (57:06)

I mean

We're both sisters. I feel like we could only take living with our siblings so mu you know what I mean? Like, I don't know.

Gina (57:15)

Yeah.

Like I love my sister very much,

Kathryn (57:18)

Yeah.

Gina (57:19)

but I could barely make it through the teenage years, you know what I mean? Like I couldn't do a whole

Kathryn (57:22)

Yeah.

Gina (57:22)

nother decade, let alone decades.

Kathryn (57:24)

That's I think very normal to just be like, I've had enough of this, I'm moving on.

Gina (57:30)

And we also know that Emma had issues with people that were in Lizzie's life as well. people often bring up that Lizzie was really close to an actress named Nance O'Neill. And she was. She would have Nance over like all the time. She would throw these big lavish parties for her, which Emma didn't like because they would get all this attention, and Emma was like, Hey, I'm I'm sick of like the papers following us around. Can we chill out? And Lizzie kept throwing the parties. And it might not be a coincidence that

Nance came to stay with them one week and Emma left the next week. The two might be related. And also

Kathryn (58:03)

Yeah.

Gina (58:03)

there was this thing with they they had a coachman, I think his name was John, and he was like supposedly very hot, very sexy, he was a womanizer. Lizzie was a big fan of him, gave him these expensive gifts all the time. Emma fired him because she didn't like him. And after Emma was gone, John like immediately came back. So there were a multitude of things it could have been. It could have just also been

You don't pick up your fucking socks and you smell.

Kathryn (58:29)

Right. Yeah.

Gina (58:30)

For Lizzie's part, she stayed at Maplecroft for the rest of her life until she passed away in June 1927 at the age of 66. And interestingly, or maybe just coincidentally, Emma died just nine days later. And the sisters are buried

Kathryn (58:48)

interesting.

Gina (58:49)

side by side in Fall River with their family.

Kathryn (58:53)

I just I do think that's kinda funny that Emma was like, I'm getting out of here, I'm sick of the shit and then the poor woman has to be buried next to her for the rest of eternity.

I'm sorry, that's kinda funny. Yeah. Lizzie's like, What up, bitch? I wanna know where John is buried.

Gina (59:01)

I'm back. Yeah, that's true. I didn't think about that.

Hmm.

Mm. But yeah, that's Lizzie Borden.

Kathryn (59:17)

Yeah. Lizzie Borden story is wild because, like you said, to this day, everyone is still basically like, yeah, she did it. But I feel like most people who ascribe to that theory really don't know why. There they really have no other,

Gina (59:33)

Yeah.

Kathryn (59:33)

they have no reason

to say that or think that, other than for generations, people have always said, it was probably her. It's like it actually probably maybe perhaps was.

wasn't like for all of the reasons that were discussed back then and like who knows maybe it was and she's the greatest mastermind of all time but without any evidence whatsoever it's I will say I have never per like ascribed prescribed I've never ascribed to the Lizzie Diz did it theory. Just me personally. But

Gina (1:00:09)

Mm. I totally did.

Kathryn (1:00:13)

no

It's only because I'm immediately out when there's a lack of evidence. That's just me across

Gina (1:00:18)

Mm.

Kathryn (1:00:19)

the board for every case I ever come across. Like you gotta actually find me like substantial evidence. Otherwise I'm just not I just don't buy it.

Gina (1:00:30)

And when I started looking at the evidence, that's when I changed my tune and was like, and you know what? I still

Kathryn (1:00:32)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Gina (1:00:34)

don't know if I think Lizzie did it or not. My

Kathryn (1:00:37)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (1:00:38)

thing is at the very least, this was a botched investigation, and finding her not guilty was the correct choice. Like she should not have been found guilty. But it's wild how certain

Kathryn (1:00:42)

For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Gina (1:00:48)

like I when my mom came to visit a couple of weeks ago, she and I were talking about Lizzie Borden and I was asking if she ever heard that nursery rhyme. I don't know if it's a nursery rhyme, but like, you know, the Lizzie Borden took an axe and da-da-da.

Kathryn (1:00:55)

Mm-hmm. It is. That's what's so wild about it. Yeah.

Gina (1:00:59)

Yeah.

And she was like, yeah, you know, I grew up hearing it and that's kind of all I know about Lizzie Borden and the fact that she

Kathryn (1:01:06)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (1:01:06)

did it. And that's that's just like it's just ingrained in the public consciousness that she's guilty.

Kathryn (1:01:11)

Yeah.

Gina (1:01:12)

And the amount of tourism like Lizzie Bor Borden tourism is wild as well. I didn't have time to get into the fact that her old house is now like a B and B and stuff and they sell hatchets there. but they do.

Kathryn (1:01:23)

Yep.

Well, we'll get into that a little bit with my scary on top. But before we get to

that, I will say one of one of the interesting things to me is it's only been, I think, in recent years that I have started reading and hearing things on Lizzie Borden sub like emphatically supporting the she likely didn't do it. And

90% of the things that have approached the case in that way have been written by women. And I think that's interesting. I

Gina (1:02:00)

Hmm Hmm, that is interesting.

Kathryn (1:02:05)

think that's very interesting. yeah, that's all I'll say about that. but yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that perspective because I think it's definitely one and I think and we'll get into the ghosts.

Another time slash a little bit with my scary on top here in a second. But I do think the case is so interesting, and so many people focus on the house and the hauntings and all of that, that it's fun to hear. don't want to say fun, obviously, axe murder is not like a fun topic. But but it's I think valuable

and nice to hear like this is what happened. take from that what you will, versus just like.

it's an evil house and she was an evil lady and blah

Gina (1:02:44)

Mm.

Kathryn (1:02:45)

blah blah. I just I don't know. This is a fascinating story to me. yeah.

Gina (1:02:49)

good. I'm c I do have to say

there there are so many things I didn't have time to talk about in relation to the actual evidence and the c it's one of those. So

Kathryn (1:02:54)

I know, it's just one of those. Yeah.

Gina (1:02:57)

I do recommend to anyone listening, read books about it and not just stuff that's online. because

Kathryn (1:03:05)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (1:03:06)

the stuff that is available online, a lot of it doesn't go into the depth that it probably should. there are some good sources out there. I just recommend if you're gonna read the story, you need to read the whole story

Kathryn (1:03:16)

Yeah.

Gina (1:03:17)

to form your own opinion.

And that's that. I'll just leave that there.

Kathryn (1:03:21)

Cool. Well, I'll tell you a little bit of a ghost story now if you'd like.

Gina (1:03:26)

I would love that.

Kathryn (1:03:27)

So it's a mild one, but it was I found it on Reddit. It was posted in the Ghosts subreddit about two years ago by user Dave P. Hoffjax or Dave P. H. of Jax. I don't know. Anyway, it says, it was the year nineteen ninety-nine.

And my daughter came home from school with an assignment to write an essay on someone famous. She asks me, who should I write about? I don't want to do Washington or Lincoln or someone like that because everyone does reports on them, and I want to do someone different. So being who I am, I suggested that she do a report on Lizzie Borden. She then proceeded to ask me who Lizzie was and hung on every word I said. She was captivated. She had to present her choice to the teacher the next day for approval.

She came running home that next afternoon yelling that the teacher approved, and she was so excited. So I took her to the library to do some research. As she's reading through a book on Lizzie, her eyes got wide as saucers, and she cautiously looks up at me with a bit of fear. It wasn't what had happened that scared her, but the fact that Lizzie and I share the same birthday and love for fishing.

Plus we share the same sorry, plus we share some of the same facial features and hair color. It kind of spooked her a little bit. Anyway, flash forward a few days, and the local news does this story about the board in house being bought and turned into a bed and breakfast that gives tours. Perfect.

Gina (1:05:04)

Mm.

Kathryn (1:05:06)

I called to see if we could take a tour for research for my daughter's report. They were ecstatic that she wanted to do her report on Lizzie and were happy to help with a young person's education. I wanna know what grade she was in because it's implied that she's kinda little, but it I don't does it say I didn't

Gina (1:05:25)

I didn't I was picturing like fourth

grade for some reason, like thereabouts.

Kathryn (1:05:28)

Me too, but it doesn't

say. Yeah, it doesn't say, but I was a imagine like fourth or fifth grade. Anyway, we took a trip down to Fall River, Massachusetts, and I was amazed that the town and historical society preserved the space on the street in front of the house to look just as it did the year of the murders. We go in and meet the tour guide before making our way to the second floor, and eventually we find ourselves in Lizzie's bedroom.

There was a young man with us in training to be a tour guide, and he followed right behind me. In Lizzie's room, there was a letter writing desk against the wall at the foot of her bed. And this is where it happened. I bent over and was very lightly touching the desk as I read the letter from the bed and breast boo. The bed and breakfast describing the items in the room. All of a sudden, the desk starts shaking.

And rapidly shifting from left to right directly under my fingers. My eyes got huge, and my excitement was beyond measurable. I looked at the young man in hopes that he saw what just happened to make sure I wasn't imagining it. Lo and behold, this man turns white as a ghost and runs from the room. My experience had been validated. I caught up with the rest of the tour, and the woman asked where.

The young man had gone and I told her what had just happened and that it seemed that Lizzie had scared him off. Isn't that wild? So it was like w

Gina (1:07:02)

my gosh.

Kathryn (1:07:06)

an early tour. That was like shortly after they opened as like a what it is now.

Gina (1:07:13)

I would be so scared if that happened to me.

Kathryn (1:07:16)

I know.

Gina (1:07:18)

Crazy. Did it say where his kid was when that happened? She didn't see?

Kathryn (1:07:23)

I don't think she saw I think it was like a it was a group tour, so she may have still been them at with them and he just ha was hanging back a second 'cause he was reading like

Gina (1:07:30)

Okay. Got it, got it, got it.

Kathryn (1:07:34)

placard or whatever. Yeah. So I think it was like just

Gina (1:07:36)

Okay, okay.

Kathryn (1:07:37)

outside the room type of thing.

Gina (1:07:40)

man. I would you stay in the boarding house?

Kathryn (1:07:44)

yes, it's a bucketless item for me. Yeah, I'm

Gina (1:07:46)

Yeah.

Kathryn (1:07:46)

I'm very curious. Because another thing, that's a good question, because I'm always curious about the vibes of places, because of what we've talked about numerous times on this podcast. Just, you know, how important is the energy you bring to a space, blah, blah, blah. And when I was looking for something to read for the scary on top, so many people on Reddit.

said they were astonished at the vibes of the house because they were very good and calming and

Gina (1:08:18)

Mm.

Kathryn (1:08:20)

kind of peaceful, I'd say. Many of them said, not me, I haven't been there, but many said it was very peaceful. But then others would describe, you know, there are certain rooms where a lot of people experience nightmares, but then their waking experience is really good. You know what I mean? So it seems like a

Gina (1:08:37)

Mm.

Kathryn (1:08:38)

an interesting

It seems like one of those places that

because of the discussion around this story and all the history with this house and this family, I think people forget that that energy, this story is one story with this house, and this property and land and house existed so much longer

Gina (1:09:02)

Mm.

Kathryn (1:09:02)

before and after this one instance that is so dark and heavy. So I wonder what other types of energy

Like are there, And who else is there? Yeah.

Gina (1:09:11)

That would be interesting. Mm-hmm. Cause I know

I don't know anything about people who used to live there, but I know it used to be

Kathryn (1:09:18)

Mm.

Gina (1:09:19)

two home like basically a duplex that the boardens turned into just a single family

Kathryn (1:09:23)

interesting.

Gina (1:09:24)

home. So there would have then that's why there's no hallways. It's because the upstairs

Kathryn (1:09:26)

Yeah.

Gina (1:09:27)

was like an apartment and the downstairs was an apartment And they have two staircases,

Kathryn (1:09:31)

Yeah.

Gina (1:09:32)

one in the front and one in the back, for the same reason. So double the families.

Kathryn (1:09:38)

That's interesting. didn't yeah, 'cause I didn't know how old the house was, so I don't know how long it was there before they were there. Or like who lived there after them? If anyone. Do you know?

Gina (1:09:50)

I can't remember. I know that Maplecroft is a private residence now. I think the company that

Kathryn (1:09:55)

Mm.

Gina (1:09:56)

owns the B and B bought Maplecroft and they were gonna turn it into another one, but then COVID hit or

Kathryn (1:10:01)

Mm.

Gina (1:10:01)

something like that, and so now it's private. I don't know who owned

Kathryn (1:10:04)

Okay.

Gina (1:10:05)

the board and home. I'm assuming that Lizzie and Emma still owned it. They just leased it out to someone else, but I I I'm not positive about that. Yeah.

Kathryn (1:10:11)

Yeah. Which and that's a lot of energy too. Like if they were

leasing it out, like maybe it was multiple people or whatever.

Gina (1:10:18)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (1:10:19)

Like there could be a lot of different things going on there. It's just this one day in these people's lives is what people focus on. But that wasn't the only day of energy that would still be there, you know.

Gina (1:10:34)

Well we'll go. We'll go someday. I do want to go to Massachusetts.

Kathryn (1:10:35)

Yeah.

Gina (1:10:37)

Well, thank you for that scary on top.

Kathryn (1:10:37)

it's on the list, don't worry. Yes, thank

you for the story. and if any of you out there have a story, please send it to us, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com.

Don't forget to leave us a rating or review wherever you listen. and if you want more from us each month, go on and join us on Patreon. All the links are always in the show notes. And until next time, Lil Spoons, keep it cool.

Gina (1:11:01)

Keep it creepy.