71: Persephone
Gina (00:10)
My back kinda hurts.
Kathryn (00:11)
I know,
I need to like, I really need to get back to yoga. I can feel myself like, crunched.
Gina (00:16)
I just need to
stretch.
Kathryn (00:19)
Hey, do you use the Finch app?
Gina (00:21)
I used to religiously.
Kathryn (00:22)
I used to two
and I started again. And one of the ones that I've been trying my best to do is the take a stretch break. ⁓
Gina (00:31)
Maybe I'll start doing that
again, because it did help when I was using it.
Kathryn (00:34)
Yeah, me too.
Gina (00:35)
Not sponsored, but wannabe.
Kathryn (00:37)
ooh, that'd be so cool if we were sponsored by Finch. That'd be so cool.
Gina (00:41)
I would love that. What if they made a little
Billy Sprinks hat that he could wear? We can dream big.
Kathryn (00:49)
Wait, that'd be so cute. Damn, kind of want to leave this in. Finch if you're out there. Hashtag not sponsored, but want to be. ⁓ Okay, yeah, I'm leaving this in. Hello everyone, welcome. This is I Scream You Scream we are you hear a weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Kathryn
Gina (00:52)
Please.
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (01:10)
And for the month of March, are telling stories about femme fatales. We've been having a real great time this far. And the ice cream flavor is chocolate and berries, dealer's choice.
If our once weekly cadence is not enough to, I'm gonna say tickle your fancy. I don't know, is that the right phrase? I've been real bad with phrases lately. If that's not enough for you, go ahead and join us over on Patreon. But until then, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Gina (01:29)
You
Hell yeah.
Kathryn (01:41)
So I know I promised that I was gonna do the lemon chocolate this time, but I couldn't find it. I don't know where it was. I might've already eaten it. But today I have chocolate, or I'm sorry, have cherry chocolate. So I have like a cherry chocolate raspberry thing going on today.
Gina (01:48)
Hmm.
I know how you feel about cherry chocolate.
Kathryn (02:01)
yeah, this is bomb. Yum.
Gina (02:04)
It's funny
that you mentioned the other one, because I was ⁓ working on editing the Lorena Bobbitt episode today. in it, I said that I would remind you. And so was like, OK, Gina, I can't forget you have to text Kathryn before we hop in to record later tonight. And then I absolutely forgot. So I feel better knowing that you tried and couldn't find it.
Kathryn (02:13)
Hehehe.
That's okay. Yeah,
I did look for it. To those who have been invested in my office journey, it is a mess again. So it could just be here somewhere, but it also seems like something I would have eaten right away. I don't know. Who's to say?
Gina (02:29)
Hahaha ⁓
I have a question.
Kathryn (02:37)
This is bomb now.
Yes.
Gina (02:41)
How was your first wedding anniversary?
Kathryn (02:44)
Yes, it was good. was very cold and snowy. I literally told Phil, I don't know what the hell we were thinking getting married in February. It was like really not thought all the way through. But it was fun. We went to brunch
Gina (02:50)
Romantic.
Kathryn (03:06)
It was very, very good. I had, have you ever had a Johnny cake?
Gina (03:10)
No, what's that?
Kathryn (03:11)
I effing love Johnny Cakes and I have not seen one on a menu in years. It's basically a pancake but made with cornmeal. like if a corn muffin and a pancake smushed together. Delectable, it's so good. we went to Uncle Wolfie's. It was my first Uncle Wolfie's experience.
Gina (03:18)
Okay.
⁓
that place is good.
Kathryn (03:38)
Everyone loves Uncle Wolfie's and it's been on my list for years and I've just never been and Phil had never been So we went there for brunch We were between like five different places and he was making me choose So I was going through the menus and I saw they had Johnny gate Johnny cakes and no one ever has Johnny cake So I was like we have to go here So that was good. Then in the evening, we just did normal like dinner drinks and
And then the next day, Sunday, I had the day off work and thank goodness I did because we were sick all day long, both of us. So it was great because like we didn't have anything to do or anything going on
Gina (04:12)
Ha ⁓
Kathryn (04:20)
yeah, all in all, great first anniversary. Love it. I love anniversary weekends.
Gina (04:25)
God, I can't believe it's already
been a year. That is insane.
Kathryn (04:29)
was confusing because we waited until November to do that rehearsal. reception. in my head, our anniversary's in November.
Gina (04:39)
Yeah.
Kathryn (04:39)
So was like, what the hell, we just did this. Why are we celebrating a one year anniversary? Because legally it actually is. yeah, it's our government anniversary and at our party anniversary.
Gina (04:47)
Yeah, yeah, it's your government anniversary.
I'm glad you like Uncle Wolfie's. I had forgotten about that place.
Kathryn (04:56)
It was so good. I can't believe it's taking me so long to... Well, I can. It's because I am adverse to places that don't take reservations. They stress me out. But knew it was going to be busy, so we walked down and got coffee somewhere else. then, because it was like a 45 minute wait. we got coffee and then by the time we came back, it was pretty much time to go. So, yeah, it was good.
Gina (05:17)
Nice. I met the,
I think I met the owner one time, because I'm pretty sure he used to, yeah, I'm pretty sure he used to work at the coffee shop that I worked at in college. And he came in one, like very much the vibe, like he's, know, hipster millennial vibes. And he came in one time, it was like right after he started the restaurant, he came in to get a coffee and he complimented the coffee that I made him. And it was, yeah, the highlight of my time there. And then I almost immediately quit.
Kathryn (05:22)
Really?
probably, that seems... yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
gonna...
Gina (05:47)
I'm super famous. Yeah, I'm a very big deal, Kathryn. I have a podcast. Wait, can I tell you a story that reminded me of something? So I was on a call yesterday at work,
Kathryn (05:48)
Wait, you're like famous.
Yes, please do. Yes.
Gina (06:01)
And at one point we were talking about like some stuff that's been going on and I was trying to give some advice and be, you know, motivational or helpful or whatever. And the guy I was talking to just started laughing and I was like being very serious. So was like, what, what's funny? And he was like, sorry, it's just when Americans give advice, it sounds like I'm listening to a podcast. And I was like, ⁓ does it? How funny. Imagine.
Kathryn (06:30)
I've never thought of that before. That's fantastic. That's great.
Gina (06:33)
Yeah,
made me laugh. So I had to tell you about it.
Kathryn (06:37)
Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you for telling me that. I'm going to notice that about people now because that actually so Phil does this thing. This is such an aside, but it reminds me kind of in the similar vein. Whenever he starts talking, because obviously, you know, he's very passionate about music. Anytime he starts talking about a particular artist or the history of something, whatever pertaining to music. voice like flips to the cadence, people
in music documentaries or historical documentaries speak. I don't know how to explain it, but you'll notice this now when he starts ranting about music in particular.
Gina (07:13)
That's funny.
Kathryn (07:19)
But I'm also like, that's also...
he does something similar when he talks about the brewers. He gets like real Wisconsin. Do you know what I mean?
Gina (07:29)
Yeah. It's funny that we're
talking about Phil's cadence because as I was like preparing to hop into this call, I like my inner monologue said something and I can't remember what it was. But as soon as my brain said it, I was like, that sounds exactly like Phil. It's like I said it in Phil's voice in my head. Yeah. That's funny.
Kathryn (07:45)
a psychic moment! You knew I was gonna talk about this. ⁓ god, Phil's voice in your head? That's horrifying.
Gina (07:54)
But it's the way that he
Kathryn (07:54)
I'm so sorry.
Gina (07:55)
like, like if he has a really short statement to make, like if he was saying, that's not good, he'll be like, ⁓ that is not good. You know, it's so specific.
Kathryn (08:01)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.
Yeah.
I love this. I think you do too. This is me trying not to fall down a rabbit hole of ⁓ identifying personality traits based on the cadence within one, like the way someone speaks or whatever. Because you and I have been told this before, pre podcast days that we have very specific cadences and the way we speak is very specific. And now having this podcast, I'm like, I can't unhear the cadence that.
Gina (08:06)
Anyway, I think I just missed Phil.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (08:36)
I speak with.
Gina (08:37)
Yeah, same.
Kathryn (08:39)
Anyway, that's a whole rabbit hole.
Gina (08:43)
Silver linings of having a podcast and editing it ourselves. I know the exact shape of your laughter and isn't that lovely?
Kathryn (08:50)
What a
little piece of poetry that was. Oh my goodness. The shape of a laughter. That's fantastic. I love that so much. Now I'm thinking.
Gina (08:55)
It's so nice, I know what it looks like.
I also know the shape of your
coughs.
Kathryn (09:06)
I was just gonna say I know the shapes of your misspeaks because Riverside always makes them so big. We need to share that one that I sent you the other day. I don't even know what Riverside did, but when it was transcribing this little tiny voice thing of yours that you did for like two seconds, it made it like three paragraphs long. I don't know what was going on with that. I think it just knew energetically what you were going for. ⁓
Gina (09:36)
Yeah, it knew I was panicking and it responded accordingly.
Kathryn (09:37)
Wow, that was great.
Anyway, enough about vocal things. I'm dying to hear today's story.
Gina (09:43)
Anyway...
Well, I will start by tossing it right back at you with a question. If you were a goddess, what would you want to be the goddess of? Not what do you think you would be the goddess of? What would you want to be the goddess of?
Kathryn (09:54)
Okay.
⁓
Okay, now I kind of want to know what I would be, but I am prepared want to be. But see, now I'm second guessing. Sorry, I'm going to like fall down the rabbit hole in my brain. Just to erase some of the movie magic here for our listeners, Gina did warn me and give me time to prepare and I'm still waffling over here. So want to be...
Gina (10:18)
gosh, I shouldn't have specified.
Kathryn (10:34)
the goddess of comfy, cozy women. I'm imagining like a hybrid between like Hestia and Hera, like home, comfy, cozy. Just imagine a woman lounging in her most revered place. And that is when I am with her.
Gina (10:39)
Ugh.
Mmm, nice.
you
Kathryn (10:58)
as the goddess of comfy cozy women.
Gina (11:02)
Like the goddess of Oodies. I love this. I love that so much. You know, my answer really is not that different than yours at all. I want to be, yeah. I thought so too, but I, so I put that I want to be the goddess of restful sleep and good dreams.
Kathryn (11:04)
Yeah, that's just me. That is me in my goddess form, my Ooty.
Really? I thought we were gonna be like opposite.
I love that
Gina (11:28)
And they're very complimentary. You have a cozy day, you have a restful sleep. Yeah.
Kathryn (11:30)
They're like two sides. Yeah,
they're two sides of the same thing. Like come first and then you follow and then cycle goes on forever. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, I love that so much. Good job, us. I think so too. We'll talk about it after.
Gina (11:40)
Yeah, it's like comfort during waking hours and comfort during sleeping hours. And yeah, I love that.
Yeah, me too. ⁓ God, I think we should be best friends or something. I don't know about you, but.
Well, the reason I asked you that question is because today I'm going to be talking about the mythological Greek goddess Persephone, who was the goddess of springtime and new growth. And the reason I wanted to talk about her during femme fatale month, despite the fact that she's not like a traditional femme fatale, is that Persephone is pretty literally a woman of death because she is also queen of the underworld.
Kathryn (12:05)
Yay.
Gina (12:25)
In a lot of the Persephone retellings that we hear today, she's framed a lot of the times as like a victim in her own story, but there are a lot of people that think that those versions do her a disservice. And I personally am kind of inclined to agree with them, especially when we see her as nothing but a victim in her story. So today, I want to explore what her story actually is.
the amount of agency she had within it, and also some more modern interpretations of her myth as well. content warning before I jump in. I will be telling a story that involves abduction, forced marriage, and just like general shitty misogynistic attitudes. So ye be warned.
take this all the way back to the beginning. Persephone's parents were Demeter and Zeus. So in the ancient Greek pantheon, Demeter was the Greek goddess of grain and agriculture, often referred to as the provider of the harvest. And Zeus, as I think a lot of us know, was the king of the gods, known for such acts as throwing lightning bolts at people and being a cool, funny dad in Disney's Hercules movie.
But in actuality, he was not really a fun dad. In fact, he was a rampant sexual predator. He was super petty. He was selfish, also super powerful or whatever, but not exactly a great, strictly good moral figure, which is a really big part of the ancient Greek religious system and others like it, because the gods and goddesses that we're going to be talking about today flawed.
Kathryn (13:43)
You
Gina (14:09)
They make mistakes, they do horrible things sometimes, and in that way, they're much more similar to actual humans than something like the Christian God who is said to be like all-knowing, benevolent, always knows best, always has a plan, that kind of thing. That is not the case here. So it's just worth bearing in mind as we go through these stories. But between both of Persephone's parents, there was obviously a lot of power floating around.
both way up on Mount Olympus where the gods lived, but also on earth where the mortals are, where things like Demeter's domain over agriculture come into play. means that Persephone too was a very powerful goddess. She was a goddess of agriculture, just like her mom, but also kind of generally seen as like a goddess of life as well. So already like a lot of similarities between Demeter and Persephone.
And growing up, Persephone was kind of like her mom's mini-me. It was very rarely just Persephone at this point. It was always Demeter and Persephone, or Persephone and Demeter. They were very much like two sides of the same coin, but kind of like what we were talking about with our goddess thing, both sides of the coin were the same side, if you know what I mean. Like they weren't opposites, but they were complementary.
Kathryn (15:27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (15:31)
And according to some versions of the story, Demeter was super overprotective of Persephone, even going so far as to be pretty overbearing. These retellings go that Demeter didn't want Persephone growing up with the politics and the danger and the intrigue of the gods on Mount Olympus. So she intentionally raised Persephone kind of away from it all, like away from
the public eye in an attempt to keep her safe. So it was the equivalent of like moving away from the city to raise your kids in the suburbs. But in this case, the suburbs is just like earth, the mortal realm, whatever. The most famous and well-known story we have about Persephone comes from the Homeric hymn to Demeter, which was written in the sixth to seventh century BC. And we don't know how old Persephone is supposed to be.
in this story because gods are supposed to be ageless. That's one of their whole things. But most versions have her as either a young woman or late teens, just to paint a picture because I know we always ask about things like this during episodes, and this is one where we genuinely don't know.
Kathryn (16:45)
Yeah.
Gina (16:46)
And her story goes a little something like this. Once upon a time, Persephone was in her favorite meadow picking flowers. When she suddenly saw an unusually beautiful flower start to bloom. And I have a quote from the English translation of the original text because I think it's really beautiful. It says, quote, from its root grew a hundred blooms and it smelled most sweetly.
so that all wide heaven above and the whole earth and all of the seas salt swelled and laughed for joy. That's like a very beautiful flower.
Kathryn (17:22)
yeah. Wait, I love that. I want that flower.
Gina (17:26)
Me too. Well, so did Persephone because she...
Kathryn (17:28)
Mmm. I'm jealous. I want that flower.
Gina (17:37)
So did she because she immediately, her first reaction was to lean down, get a closer look and go to pick it. And as she did so, the ground beneath her started to tremble. The earth opened up and from the chasm arose Hades, pulled on a golden chariot with four horses. Yeah, so you don't really want that flower or maybe you do. I'll finish the story and then you can decide if you would want the flower.
Kathryn (18:04)
Okay, yeah, I like this.
Gina (18:07)
grabbed Persephone and dragged her back into the earth with her kicking and screaming for her release the entire way down. But her efforts were in vain because Hades took her to the underworld and made her his wife. When Demeter discovered that her daughter was missing, she was obviously inconsolable. Grief completely consumed her and for nine days she searched high and low for Persephone.
but no matter where she looked, she couldn't find a single thing to suggest where her daughter had gone or who had taken her. On the 10th day, Hecate came to Demeter and offered help, which quick shout out because our girl Hecate is the goddess of witchcraft among other things.
Kathryn (18:54)
is such an aside. There's a young adult novel named Hecate and it is one of the books that my computer is currently sitting on. Just so you know. Yeah, I'm about to start it. It's like the next book I'm about to start. That's why it's right here in my pile. Shout out. Yeah.
Gina (19:02)
hey, nice.
nice. Let me know if you dig it. Yeah, shout
out. I want to read that too. That sounds good. But yes, she shows up and she starts helping Demeter search for Persephone. And together they went to go talk to Helios, who was the god of the sun, to see if he knew anything about where Persephone had gone. And Helios told them Hades had abducted her in order to marry her.
and that Zeus had given him permission to do it. Persephone's own father. And Hades was her uncle, which is gross, but also pretty common in Greek mythology.
Kathryn (19:44)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that going on in Greek mythology. I feel like Zeus is like everyone's dad. ⁓ I did not know that. I didn't know that Zeus gave the OK, which like I guess I'm not surprised, but gross.
Gina (19:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much, yeah.
Very Zeus, still disappointing.
Kathryn (20:05)
Yeah.
Gina (20:06)
And Demeter shared our distaste for this because when she heard about it, she went feral with rage. And she wound up basically going on a goddess strike. She allowed crops to fail, which caused people to starve. And because the people were starving, they stopped sacrificing as much to the gods, which Zeus was not very happy about.
And Demeter refused to lift a finger until her daughter was returned to her. Zeus caved to this pretty quickly and he wound up sending Hermes, his messenger and also like a god in his own right, down to the underworld to negotiate a release. And he was successful. Hermes managed to convince Hades to let Persephone go. But before she went back to the surface, Hades tricked Persephone into eating a few pomegranate seeds.
And these seeds bound Persephone to spending part of each year in the underworld with her husband forevermore. And this is how the ancient Greeks explained the seasons. Persephone goes to the underworld, the cold months begin, plants start to wither and die, the harvest ends, and the world is basically plunged into like a reflection of Demeter's grief at the loss of her daughter.
But when Persephone comes back each year, that's when the meadows start to flower, that's when the sprouts of the new harvest begin to show. And because of this, this is how Persephone becomes the embodiment of springtime, which I will say is very appropriate because the first day of spring is just three days after this episode comes out.
Kathryn (21:45)
Yeah, it is like feeling like spring is around the corner. So I'm very excited for it to like officially be here. For Persephone to officially come back. Yes, she's on her way.
Gina (21:52)
Agreed.
Me too. Yes, she's packing her bags as quick as she can. She'll be here.
Yes. But yeah, yeah, that's the traditional most well-known Persephone story. One other thing that I thought was interesting about Persephone is that she's also seen as the embodiment of grains, which sounds a little bit out there, but I'll explain why. It's because they were said to follow a similar path as Persephone.
Like the seeds disappear into the earth, but in the springtime, they reemerge as that year's crops. So Persephone is often portrayed carrying wheat or other forms of grain, which I particularly was excited about because that to me says she loves carbs, and as a carb lover, I just respect that a lot.
Kathryn (22:43)
As a fellow lover of the grain, we're here for it.
Gina (22:47)
Mmm.
I love bread so much. Thank you, Persephone Thank
Kathryn (22:50)
wonder if she likes Johnny cakes.
Gina (22:53)
I bet she does.
Kathryn (22:55)
she's got to.
Gina (22:55)
feel like I really wanna try John. I wonder if they're hard to make. I bet I could make them.
Kathryn (22:59)
There's no way, they can't be.
Gina (23:01)
I can make a pancake, I can use cornmeal.
Kathryn (23:03)
There you go, that's like the whole thing.
Gina (23:05)
God, I'm good. Persephone's domain kind of shifts over the course of her story, both physically, because she goes to the underworld and back, but also her power as a goddess becomes more her own. And we stop seeing her as like a mini Demeter, like just another agriculture goddess, and she specifically becomes the goddess of springtime and new growth.
But more than that, for a really long time, the story has as a tale of rebirth and the importance of accepting the many cycles and changes that we all go through throughout our lives. And a lot of people who practice witchcraft call on Persephone for help navigating those types of situations. More on that later.
What's extra interesting to me, what's extra cool is that some scholars think that Persephone's story goes back way, way further than ancient Greece, or at least like versions of her story do. Which like when I think about it, it makes sense because myths and legends do have to come from somewhere, but it just still boggles my mind how far back we can trace some of the stories that we still tell and connect with today. I just think it's really cool.
⁓ But some scholars specifically point to the ancient Sumerian goddess named Inanna as an early contributor to the Persephone narrative. Are you familiar with Inanna? You smiled when I said her name.
Kathryn (24:36)
Yes, that's the chick that got, ⁓ had beef with Lilith. Because of her tree, remember? Yeah.
Gina (24:41)
my God, it was!
⁓ damn, I forgot about that. Okay, hell yeah, well, she's back.
Kathryn (24:46)
Yeah, Inanna is
like, I feel like she, lot of goddesses get traced back to her ultimately. Yeah.
Gina (24:53)
I totally believe that.
just to put a little bit of context on the date, the story I'm about to tell you about Inanna dates back over a thousand years before our earliest records of Persephone's story. So that's what I mean when I say it boggles my mind.
so Inanna, she was a goddess of life and fertility, similar to Persephone, but she was also the queen of heaven, which...
Little bit ironic because Persephone winds up being basically the queen of hell. And while Persephone gets abducted and dragged into the underworld, Inanna goes there willingly. I'm gonna tell you one version of that story now. So Inanna, queen of heaven, had a sister named Ereshkigal who was the queen of the dead. And Inanna decided to visit her sister in the underworld so that she could be there during her brother-in-law's funeral.
because Ereshkigal husband had passed away. Inanna put on all of her heavenly vestments and all of her fancy outfit pieces and she made the trek down to the entrance of the underworld. before she went inside, she told her advisor Ninshubur to wait outside for her. And she basically told Ninshubur, look, if three days and three nights go by and I haven't come out, you need to go get help.
because Ereshkigal was like a little bit of a handful. And so Inanna anticipated, like there's probably gonna be some issues when I go down there. And Ninshubur was like, no worries Inanna, I got you. So with that, Inanna knocked on the door to the underworld and Ereshkigal decided to let her inside on the condition that each time Inanna passed a gate, because there were seven gates to the underworld. So every time she passed one, she had to take off a piece of her clothing.
Kathryn (26:39)
⁓
Gina (26:40)
Yeah, fun, sexy little game.
Kathryn (26:43)
I was gonna say, that's like underworld strip poker.
Gina (26:46)
It is, but with your sister. I'm not a huge fan of that one.
Kathryn (26:49)
you
That's like a hashtag girlhood, you know?
Gina (26:57)
deities are just deitying, you know what I mean? But Inanna agreed to do it. So one by one as she passed each gate, she stripped off her jewelry, her armor, her crown, her clothes, everything, so that by the time she entered the throne room where Erishkigal was, Inanna was completely naked and vulnerable. And that is when Erishkigal attacked her.
Kathryn (26:59)
deities be deities, you know?
Gina (27:24)
It is said that she struck Inanna with death and hung her body from a hook on the wall. Yeah, rough. No, like my sister and I fight, but I wouldn't hang her from a hook. That's a bit much.
Kathryn (27:32)
F.
That's not nice.
Yeah, that's a little dramatic.
Gina (27:45)
Yeah, agreed. And for three days and three nights, Inanna hung there until Ninshuber, who remembered what Inanna had said and warned her that this might happen, Ninshuber followed Inanna's instructions and went to her dad, Enki, for help. And Enki decided to save Inanna by sending these two little, like, creature things into the underworld to get her released. They're described as, like, picture flies, but they could talk.
He's not a fan. ⁓
Kathryn (28:18)
That's not for me
personally. Yeah. I I don't, I don't love that, but to each their own.
Gina (28:24)
Okay, if you had to
pick a little creature to go into the underworld and save Inanna, which creature would you pick?
Kathryn (28:31)
⁓ how man you're so much better at these on the spot things than I am. I don't know.
Gina (28:40)
I can tell you what I'm picturing you sending.
Kathryn (28:42)
Tell me.
Gina (28:44)
of cute little ducklings.
Kathryn (28:46)
Wait, that's so cute. A little duck. Yeah. Okay. I'm into the duck. Yeah. Okay.
Gina (28:47)
waddling their way down there.
Okay, so these
ducks go down to the underworld.
Kathryn (28:59)
When you said duck, I was imagining like a little baby duck, like a fuzzy baby duck with butterfly wings. That's like the, yeah.
Gina (29:08)
Butterfly ducklings?
No, that doesn't work.
Kathryn (29:13)
Bucklings.
Gina (29:16)
⁓ Okay, so.
Kathryn (29:17)
Sorry, continue.
Gina (29:20)
ducklings go down to the underworld. And they started to kind of like butter Ereshkigal up. They were there for her. They were sympathetic towards her. They basically just like won a bunch of brownie points with her very, very fast. To the point where Ereshkigal said to these little butterfly ducklings, I am so thankful that you are here. Name any gift in the world and I will give it to you if I can. And these little guys asked for
the corpse that was hanging on the wall, Inanna's corpse. Ereshkigal let them have it. And when they got her off of the wall, they gave her the food and water of life. Inanna was resurrected and she was able to go back and reclaim her throne as queen of heaven. But it was not that easy because once you're in the underworld, it is very, very hard to get out.
And so in order to leave, Inanna had to choose someone to take her place. She wasn't willing to sacrifice Ninshuber because she had been a total ally and like effectively gotten her out of there with the help of those little duckling guys. And Inanna also refused to sacrifice her beautician named Kara. I'm not kidding. Yeah. Yep. It sounds like, like random and like weirdly modern, like a little bit of like.
Kathryn (30:35)
Okay. Sure. Why not?
Gina (30:43)
the Tiffany effect or whatever that's called. But it's because the beautician had mourned Inanna's death while she was gone. Like she was really upset about it. And so Inanna was like, okay, she's a real one. Like I can't send her down there. The same could not be said for Inanna's lover, Dumuzi ⁓ Because while she was literally rotting in hell,
Kathryn (30:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Okay.
Yeah.
Gina (31:08)
Dumuzi had taken to sitting on Inanna's throne in all of this like fancy clothing and basically playing pretend at being King of Heaven. Very rude, yeah.
Kathryn (31:18)
Ew!
Gross, I don't like that. That's got like...
Gina (31:22)
No,
I don't like it either.
Kathryn (31:25)
Who's the like, little boy king in Game of Thrones? That really annoying blonde one? Yeah. That reminds me him. Are you?
Gina (31:30)
⁓ Joffrey, that little bitch. Where are we watching that right now? ⁓
yeah, and we just got to the part where it's like he's fully evil now and it's just horrifying. But yes, it's like that. It's like that. Yeah, Dumuzi, Joffrey, same guy. And when Inanna discovered that Dumuzi had been doing this, she was enraged. So she chose Dumuzi to take her place in the underworld. But before the deal was done, at the last second,
Kathryn (31:40)
Mmm. Yeah, fuck that guy.
Gina (31:58)
Dumuzi's sister, Geshtinanna so kind of like Inanna's sister-in-law, came to stop her brother from being sent to hell. And together, the group landed on a compromise where Dumuzi would spend half of the year in the underworld and Geshtinanna would take his place for the other half. And this, again, is how the seasons were explained. The thought being that when Dumuzi was in hell, it was cold outside, but when he came back,
So did the sunshine and the warmth and things like that, which I hate because that means that Geshtinanna only ever saw winter or hell. And that doesn't seem fair for someone who literally had nothing to do with this.
Kathryn (32:39)
Yeah.
feel like I read about this in the sleep. Not this story, but these people, I think, were part of that science of sleeping episode that I did. Because I remember her name. I remember the sister-in-law's name.
Gina (32:44)
Ooooo!
Kathryn (32:55)
to check but I'm pretty sure because she would like go to sleep while she was down there or something like that or like her body would sleep but she would be in the end or it was like something like that. had something to do with dreaming but I remember learning that that's how the seasons were. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm like there's all these like I can't believe we're already forgetting things that we've done episodes on but like.
Gina (33:03)
man.
Okay, I need to go back and check that out. Man.
I just thinking that.
Kathryn (33:21)
I do think that we, I mean, I didn't tell this story, this is all new, but like these characters or whatever.
I'm like, yeah. No, you're just.
Gina (33:28)
Okay, good, my god, I'm glad I'm not just repeating a story you've already told. That'd be so embarrassing. I come in and I'm like, I'm
gonna talk about the science of dreaming today.
Kathryn (33:37)
It's because the frickin' Sumerians started literally
Gina (33:40)
But yeah, think Geshtinanna got a little bit screwed over in that story, but that's also one of the whole points of it. And it's one of the key differences between Inanna's story and Persephone's story, because Inanna's story is all about choices. Inanna chose to go to the underworld. She chose to agree to the weird strip poker at the gates thing. ⁓
Kathryn (33:44)
for sure.
Gina (34:02)
and she chose who would replace her there. Whereas Persephone in the traditional tellings of her story is a victim. She's abducted, she's held against her will, and she's eventually released all based on the choices of other people, not her something else that sticks out to me is that Geshtinanna's role is kind of the opposite of...
the role that Demeter had in Persephone's story, or at least the way that Demeter was framed, because in the Greek myth, it's Demeter's grief at Persephone's absence that causes the seasons to change. But in the Sumerian story, it's Geshtinanna being willing to do this and choosing to do it that allows the cycle of seasons. So at the end of the day, like they basically arrive at the same result, but the difference is that Demeter is framed as the bad guy.
Like in the traditional narrative, she's letting people starve, she's letting famine spread, she let the earth dry up. Whereas Geshtinanna is seen as the ultimate hero of her story because she's the only one that finds a solution that keeps the gods happy while also protecting humanity's need for agriculture. Despite the fact that, again, she had nothing to do with anything that was happening and she was well within her rights to stay out of it. So it's just interesting how two women who had similar roles and similar stories
are framed completely differently based on the culture that's telling and then retelling it, which we know happens, but it's interesting to see it in practice.
Kathryn (35:35)
Especially since it's pretty, I mean, obviously the details are different, but it's pretty much a one-to-one retelling other than like the details that are different are different because they're the subjective parts of the story. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.
Gina (35:55)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so if Inanna's story really is a precursor for Persephone's, which we only think it might be, it's not like a bona fide thing, but if it is, however did we move from something that represented and celebrated the power of women and their choices to something where women are victims or otherwise beholden to the decisions of their male counterparts? Whatever could have happened? Hmm, I sit here and I wonder over and over again.
Kathryn (35:57)
That's interesting.
Hmm.
Ponder, ponder, ponder.
Gina (36:25)
Well,
as society got more entrenched in a patriarchal structure, the very ancient stories, like super ancient stories about women, likely got kind of flattened to support a more male-centric worldview in ancient Greece. And then when Christianity came around and absorbed that mythology, they got flattened even more. And we see this all the time. Like I was thinking about the Lilith episode when I was writing this because it's
A similar story in that it's a powerful female figure who got rewritten into a more quote, convenient role of like monster or victim.
But these days, a lot of people are returning to the Persephone narrative and reinterpreting it in ways that give her much more agency within her own story. And a really popular topic that people return to a lot is the pomegranate seeds and whether or not she actually wanted to eat them. Because while Persephone told Demeter that she was tricked into eating them, that doesn't necessarily mean that she was.
Sorry, Mom, but I used to use the whole, they made me do a trick all the time, but I was the one leading the charge. Like, it's a thing that can happen. And the main arguments here are, one, it was very common knowledge that eating the food of the undead or the dead binds you to their realm, similar to like taking food or drink from fairies. It's just something that you don't do. And yes, Persephone grew up pretty sheltered and innocent, but by the time she...
Kathryn (37:39)
yeah, yeah for sure.
Mm.
Gina (38:02)
ate the seeds, she would have been in the underworld for at least a few months. So a lot of people think that like, all right, well, she would know the score by then. She would understand what was really being asked of then two, there are some interpretations that suggest she ate the seeds willingly because she knew that it would change both her life and who she was. Because by eating the seeds, she would be staking her claim in...
a territory where she wouldn't be in her mom's shadow anymore. And so the thought here is that she was claiming her own path rather than the path that Demeter or the other gods wanted for her on the surface. Like very, that's your dream, not mine kind of vibes. And Persephone had a lot to gain from this because she became the queen of the underworld and her power grew substantially after she ate the seeds.
Kathryn (38:33)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Gina (38:55)
And really she became one of the most respected and feared figures within the Greek pantheon because she wasn't just Hades's arm candy. She had real tangible power within the underworld. And in a lot of situations, she became the sole or key decision maker in the fate of mortals. So for example, the myth of Orpheus. Orpheus was a mortal who was said to be a legendary musician, like absolute prodigy.
And his wife, Eurydice, died of a snake bite on their wedding day. So he went to the underworld to get her back. Vibes. Love that so very much. The one good man in Greek mythology.
Kathryn (39:40)
You
Gina (39:43)
And while he was there, he played music that was so beautiful that it brought Persephone to tears. And Persephone is the one who told Orpheus he could have Eurydice back as long as when they walked out together, Orpheus went first and he didn't look back at Eurydice until they were out. So Orpheus and Eurydice start walking out, Orpheus going first with Eurydice trailing behind him.
But ultimately Orpheus could not resist the temptation. He did look back and with this, Eurydice died once again. So it's a very sad story, but it's worth noting in the context of Persephone that it's Persephone who made this decision, not Hades. She had the emotional authority and the decision-making power here. it's not like Hades was on like vacation or something. And so he delegated all of his work to Persephone while he was gone. He was there.
Kathryn (40:18)
No.
Gina (40:39)
And still, the decision was not his to make. It was Persephone's decision. And to be fair, you should not get a gold star for respecting your wife. That is like the bare minimum. But it's significant in the context of ancient Greece because that really was not the norm. So this is one piece of evidence that people use to say that Hades and Persephone actually had a much more modern relationship than other gods who were couples.
you know, being grounded in a partnership of equals more so than there being a weird power dynamic where one of you always deferred to the other. So the question of how much choice Persephone really had is very, very much up for debate, but it's worth noting that her choices were to become queen or go back to being her mom's little helper, basically.
One other fun fact about Persephone that I really wanted to tell you, but I didn't know where to put it, so this is going to be a bit of a break in the narrative, is that most mainstream versions of the story don't have Persephone and Hades ever having kids, because when they're together, they are figures of death, not figures of life. some traditions say that they did have kids. They had two of them. They had a son named Zagreus, who was the god of rebirth and resurrection.
Kathryn (41:40)
Hahaha
Gina (42:03)
often seen as one of the first versions of one of my personal favorite gods, which is Dionysus, the god of wine and religious ecstasy. Love him. But it's also said that they had a daughter named Melinoë who was the goddess of ghosts and nightmares. Bad ass. I know, yeah.
Kathryn (42:10)
yeah, yeah.
She's the reason I'm scared of the dark.
Gina (42:27)
Well, her name literally does mean dark-minded.
Kathryn (42:33)
See? Told you.
Gina (42:34)
Yeah. Yeah, I just love that. I thought you would love that too. One other fun fact about Malinois is her body is often portrayed as being like half white and half black to represent like the darkness and the light, you know? Yeah.
Kathryn (42:39)
Yeah.
yeah. Wait,
it's so funny that you're talking about this because I wasn't going to bring this up because I'm not doing well, but I'm on a journey to not be afraid of the dark anymore. And it's like my one of my springtime resolutions. that's it. That's the update. I decided this like three, four days ago ish. ⁓ So I feel like this is a sign. I don't know if it's a good sign or a bad sign.
Gina (43:01)
Ooh.
I believe in you.
Kathryn (43:18)
Should I like, feel like she should be my goddess?
for now.
Gina (43:22)
man, I
didn't do any research working with her. I'm sure she's cool. You could call on Persephone and be like, yo, help me with your kid.
Kathryn (43:26)
That's okay. That's okay. I'll do that. Yeah. Fill me
in before I make any decisions. What's she like? that's interesting. Yeah, I've never heard of them having kids before. I didn't know that was a thing. That's interesting. Yeah.
Gina (43:40)
Yeah, I either. just always assumed that they didn't, but yeah, I thought it was
fun. But regardless of how much choice you think Persephone truly had before she became queen, just to come back to that whole thing, history has always, like I've been saying, treated her as a victim in her story. But that does not mean that she wasn't loved and celebrated. One of the very big things that was born out of Persephone's myth is the Eleusinian mysteries.
I I'm saying that right. I did practice the Eleusinian Mysteries gathering, the name is, I'm glad I haven't heard that in many moons. The name is a little bit misleading. It really was just a series of religious rites and rituals. And the word mysteries here just means that they were secret. wasn't like, you know, playing Clue or something like that. It was just a secret.
Kathryn (44:12)
The what now?
Okay, yes, yes.
Mm.
Yeah.
Gina (44:40)
And the Eleusinian mysteries were basically just a celebration of Persephone and Demeter's story. And they happened in like chunks throughout the year. So there were the lesser mysteries, which occurred in the spring. we think these included like cleansing and purification rituals, like taking baths in the sea or fasting for a few days, that kind of thing. And then there were the greater mysteries, which happened in the fall.
and we still do not quite know what the ancient Greeks did for the greater mysteries. Some say that it involved reenactments of Persephone's story. Others say that it involved people taking a bunch of psychedelics with the thought that they would receive visions from the gods. Super sweet. But there was also another separate festival celebrating Persephone and Demeter that I'm more interested in and it's called
Kathryn (45:26)
sweet.
Gina (45:36)
Thesmophoria.
Kathryn (45:39)
Okay, what the heck is that? Yeah.
Gina (45:42)
Sounds fun, right? So it was a
festival ⁓ specifically for women. Men were not allowed to participate. And that was a very, very big deal. Because in ancient Greece, women were property. And they couldn't do anything that was not related to homemaking or baby making. And yes, I'm painting with a very broad brush. Yes, I know that Sparta existed. But that is still problematic. And for the most part, it was true. Women were extremely limited in what they could do outside the home.
Kathryn (45:55)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (46:11)
and even in the home, to be honest, except for when Thesmophoria came around. Because during Thesmophoria, women were encouraged to engage with each other openly and publicly. And rather than spending all of their time working on stuff at home, they could focus on their community of women, which is such a vibe. I know, me too. Real quick, I do have to say, before someone jumps in my comments,
Kathryn (46:32)
I'm obsessed. I love it.
Gina (46:38)
I'm pretty sure it was only citizen wives that were allowed to participate. So if you were an enslaved woman, you weren't allowed to participate in Thesmophoria. So it wasn't all women, but some women were given some freedom to have some community, which I guess is better than nothing. So Thesmophoria was originally held over the course of three days from October 12th to 14th, so right after your birthday. And, really?
Kathryn (46:46)
Yeah.
That's my cousin's birthday. That's my cousin Jillian's
birthday, yeah.
Gina (47:07)
I wonder if Jillian celebrates Thesmophoria. I hope so too. But on the first day of Thesmophoria, women would sacrifice piglets, which is sad. And yeah, they would sacrifice them and throw them into a hole. And then on the second day, I think it was supposed to replicate like the beats of Persephone's story, like going into the earth. And then in the next part, they're going to come out of the earth kind of thing.
Kathryn (47:09)
I hope so. I'll tell her. I'll tell her about it.
⁓
Okay?
Yeah.
Ugh.
Gina (47:38)
Yeah, yeah, not great. But on
the second day, they would take the remains of the piglets and they would place them on an altar mixed in with things like pine cones, pine branches, and also dough that had been molded into the shape of serpents or men, because all of those things were said to represent fertility. And for the rest of the second day after that was done, the women would just fast together and hang out and like chit chat.
Kathryn (48:00)
Mm-mm.
Gina (48:08)
And on the third and final day, which was known as the fair birth, everything was dedicated to the women's fertility. So they would spend the day calling on Persephone and Demeter for fertility and protection in the year to come. And my extra special favorite part of this is that some sources say that during the festival, women were encouraged to tell like very gross or crude jokes.
because part of Demeter's lore is that she loved nasty jokes. So the women would basically just sit in a circle, crack a bunch of dirty jokes, and this is now referred to as ritual obscenity, which I'm obsessed with.
Kathryn (48:50)
This is so Gina-coded. This is so you. Yeah. Yeah, I could see you doing all of this. Yeah.
Gina (48:52)
It's so cool! That's so much fun! That's hilarious! I love that so much!
Dicks!
It's just funny.
Kathryn (49:04)
⁓
my god, that's funny.
Gina (49:07)
And Persephone's story and power continue to resonate for people today, particularly women, and especially when it comes to modern witchcraft and paganism. I really loved the tips that you gave on working with Lilith when you did your Lilith episode, so I also pulled together a list of loose pointers for working with Persephone if you are interested. So it's very common to call on Persephone when you need some help
Kathryn (49:27)
Ooh.
Yay! Absolutely.
Gina (49:36)
accepting the past or moving on from something that happened to you. It goes back to that cycle of change that we were talking about earlier. And it's thought that Persephone helps to embrace change or also explore new parts of yourself while reconciling the lighter and the darker parts of you. So there's also like a shadow work element to it as well. If you have an altar,
Kathryn (49:58)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (50:01)
and you do want to leave an offering to Persephone, things like flowers are always a great idea. She especially loves roses. She also responds well to vanilla and vanilla-scented things. And of course, pomegranates are a very common addition. But if you don't have an altar, that's completely okay. Mine is an absolute wreck right now. But you can also honor Persephone by just enjoying nature and experiencing the seasons with mindfulness.
Kathryn (50:22)
you
Gina (50:29)
So during the warmer months that might look like going outside and literally stopping to smell the flowers and complimenting Persephone on her work. Or in the colder months, things like making sure your house plants are happy and tended to properly, which I also kind of suck at. But I am gonna try harder now because I love Persephone.
Kathryn (50:47)
You
Gina (50:51)
But yeah, that's all I got for you. That's the Persephone story scaled down into one little episode.
Kathryn (50:57)
I love that. Yeah, I've never I knew the whole you know the reason for the season Situation, but I never knew her full Like beginning to end story. That's interesting. I love this
Gina (51:05)
Mm.
glad you liked it. I had so much fun researching this one. Because I think any kind of god or deity, just find interesting, especially when we're talking about ancient civilizations where the religion isn't, it was kind of absorbed by others over time. And so it's cool to go back and look and see what it's like. But especially Greek mythology and especially Persephone, I find so fascinating. Because there really wasn't, I can't think of a similar goddess.
Kathryn (51:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (51:39)
in that pantheon. Like she had such a unique journey.
Kathryn (51:43)
Yeah, I don't know. I'm not like super familiar with, you know, I know the obvious Greek people and the general consensus about a lot of them, but I feel like that's one that there's so many people and so many deep stories that, you know, just have never fallen. I don't want to say never. I have not really fallen down any of those rabbit holes too deeply. So.
Gina (52:03)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (52:12)
interesting. I love it. I like the deity the episodes a lot. Yeah, this is fun.
Gina (52:16)
Me too. I don't think I've done
a deity episode before. I think this was my first one. Thing. Yeah, because I tend to be more... What weird stuff did they do in the 18th century?
Kathryn (52:20)
I think so too, I don't remember you doing one.
Yeah, this is a good one. Yeah, I like this a lot.
Gina (52:32)
But anyway, thank you, I'm glad you liked it.
Now I demand recompense in the form of a scary on top.
Kathryn (52:40)
my God, I was like, what are you talking about? Okay.
Okay, I have a very, very teeny tiny scary on top for you today. As you all know, we love when you all send us stories. Doesn't matter how long or short, weird or normal, spooky or not they are. And per tradition, we got one from my father. So it's real quick. I'm just gonna walk through it real fast, but.
Gina (52:52)
Okay.
⁓ okay.
Kathryn (53:15)
Quick background. I don't remember what episode it was in, But I mentioned that my parents go to this like ice fishing thing every year. It's the perch-a-thon. And my parents were there, I don't know, a weeks ago at the time of recording. I have no idea. Time's not real. the evening...
After the day's festivities, I received this email from my father.
We are at the Perchathon and we're all sitting in the open area we use as a party slash social room. Two people on opposite ends of a couch are facing me. And as we're talking, I noticed first one of them, then the other shiver one right after the other. Then they both look at each other and say, did you just feel cold air pass by you? it was like a
ripple effect. He saw like it hit one and then the other, but there was no draft or anything. Then he says, tomorrow I will ask the desk clerk if the place is haunted. So I responded asking and asking about it and he just goes, nope, nothing. I was the first one ever to say anything. That's it. That's the email. No one's ever had a ghost experience here ever. ⁓
So anyway, I don't know where they were staying, but yeah, first ever recorded ghost experience at this place, experienced by my father. But he said that it was like one of those things, like he watched it happen, you know? I feel like those are such interesting. That was kind of like the experience Phil and I had. Remember that one at that glass making, or I'm sorry, that candle making bar where we saw her have the experience?
Gina (54:45)
Okay.
Yes, yeah.
Kathryn (55:04)
described it very similarly. Like, it wasn't an experience he had. He just, like, watched other people go through it. And he did say that there didn't appear to be any specific draft or anything. It seemed like, it seemed spooky. I'll say that. So who knows? Maybe there's... There's gotta be just some random ass lodge in the middle of the Northwoods. What's not haunted about that?
Gina (55:21)
think that place is haunted.
Totally agree. I think maybe they just don't like telling people about it because they're worried it'll hurt business or something.
Kathryn (55:34)
There, yes, there is a specific culture up north where Pete, like everything's haunted and everyone's just like, ⁓ nope, that's just the one there.
Gina (55:42)
Well,
it's like Schutes because didn't you say they were like a little bit reluctant to tell you stuff?
Kathryn (55:48)
So I don't remember if I told this on the podcast, yeah, wasn't the people at. So the people at Shooties were only reluctant to tell us stuff because we were outsiders. Once she realized I like wasn't going to make fun of her for her story, she was going to tell me she was like super happy about telling me. But I think what you're thinking of was that one historical society employee, I asked him if he had ever had any.
Gina (56:00)
Mm.
Kathryn (56:17)
ghost experiences and he was immediate. Like exactly what I just said. He was like, what did he call it? I'll have to ask Phil. He used a funny word. Like he called it like hullabaloo or something like that. I don't know if that's what it was, but it was like that type of thing where he was just like, yeah, it was something like that. I think it was malarkey. He called it malarkey. I believe it was something like that. And like his super Northern accent. Yeah, that was fantastic.
Gina (56:29)
Thank
her fuffle.
Malarkey! That's great. That's a great word. That is...
That would sound great in a Wisconsin accent.
Kathryn (56:46)
yeah, that's it. That's my scary on top. Super short and sweet. I'm hoping that more people have experiences at that place so that they can send it to us and let us know so we can read on podcasts. ⁓ If any of you out there have a story, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. We would love to hear it in a similar vein. If you enjoyed today's story, best thing you can do
Gina (56:57)
Hell yeah.
Kathryn (57:12)
to ensure we are able to continue making stories like this as leave us a five-star review. And if you would like a free sticker, feel free to send a screenshot of that review to that same email, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com, and also include your address so we know where to send the sticker. Yeah, until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Gina (57:35)
Keep it creepy.
