70: Lorena Bobbitt
Gina (00:10)
Hi, hello, what's up? Welcome to I Scream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name's Gina.
Kathryn (00:22)
And I'm Kathryn
Gina (00:23)
And this month we're talking about femme fatales while we enjoy some delicious chocolate and berry ice cream. Before we get into it, just a quick reminder that we post some really cool behind the scenes stuff on Patreon. So feel free to join us over there. Link is in the show notes. But until then, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Kathryn (00:45)
I just realized I forgot my chocolate. I'm so sad. I was really excited because so you know last time I used my emergency chocolate from my purse, like what was left of that. So I had to replenish my emergency chocolate and still did not buy chocolate to put on my ice cream. So I was gonna use the new emergency chocolate from my purse, which I'm really excited about because I feel like it'll go really well with the raspberry. It is...
Gina (00:48)
no!
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (01:16)
lemon cookie crumble flavored dark chocolate.
Gina (01:20)
Hmm, what?
Hold on. I just took a big bite and I have so many questions.
Kathryn (01:22)
It's so good. Yep.
It's, I don't remember the brand. like, yeah, it's so good. And it would taste so good on raspberry. Raspberry lemon chocolate.
Gina (01:27)
As we.
That is like right up my alley. Yum.
Alright, so next episode. Expecting big things from you.
Kathryn (01:43)
Yes,
I know. I have to put a reminder on my phone or something.
Gina (01:49)
Yum. I'll remind you, I wanna see it. I wanna watch you eat it.
Kathryn (01:52)
yeah, please honestly,
please do, because that's I'm very excited to try it. And I was looking forward to that today. And the moment I took a bite, I was like, wait, I forgot.
Gina (02:01)
no! Nah, it's alright. This podcast doesn't have an end date, ever. It will go on and on in perpetuity, so you'll have infinite chances.
Kathryn (02:11)
So true. God, what a terrifying thought. Terrifying and beautiful. Just like this podcast.
Gina (02:14)
I think it's an awesome thought.
Kathryn (02:21)
I do have shout outs for my niece, is both of them. Can I talk about this past weekend? Man, like major, auntie vibe this Saturday. So the eldest niece, I don't know what she was doing. I don't know what it was. It was like she had to qualify for some sprinting race thing. So she went down to Chicago and was racing all day. She had like 70 million races.
Gina (02:23)
⁓ yes.
Please do.
Kathryn (02:47)
And this child is the fastest child I've ever seen in my life. Like, did I show you that? Yeah, I did. That video of her winning? She was in the lead the whole time. And then at the very end, this one also very fast child, they all did so good, started to pass her. And like, you could see her energy just straight up like, no, excuse you, I am winning this race. And she just took off. I was so proud of her.
Gina (02:53)
You sent me the video. Yeah.
Kathryn (03:16)
That was the reason I was so proud of that one in particular is not because she won. It's because she PR'd. That was a PR for her. Yeah. Yes. So very, very cool. And then the little one, I got to see her Riverdance dress rehearsal in the flesh. So also very cool. And she was very good. She was like on beat. Her kicks were kicking. She did such a great job.
Gina (03:23)
Hell yeah!
Hmm.
Kathryn (03:43)
It was so much fun. And from where Phil and I were, we could see her like, it wasn't a stage, it was some, I don't know what it was, some community space, but we could see her in the hallway, quote unquote backstage. She was dancing the whole time and like, my God, it was straight up like hashtag girlhood. Like you could just see her living her like best performer life. Yeah, so very proud of both of them. They did wonderful things.
Gina (04:04)
Yay!
love that so much. Yay.
Kathryn (04:12)
this weekend. I know
I was so happy. What was funny because we were driving to Madison while the older one was running her first few races. So I'm like trying to pay attention to like we're on our way to this one and I'm trying to stay updated with all the videos being sent for the other one. It was just so chaotic in the best way. I loved it. It was one of those. It was the first time in a very long time that I was like genuinely.
how can we get the technology to be in two places at once? Because it was the first time where I was genuinely so like, I really wish I could have been at both places at both, like one time, but it's okay. She knows I was there in spirit. I was like doing my best not to text her all day as she's like stretching for these stories. I was like trying not to be annoying, yeah. But yeah, very proud of both of them. They both did such a good job.
Gina (05:05)
And this is just the beginning, especially for the older one. Because she, I cannot believe how fast she was.
Kathryn (05:08)
Mm-hmm. Girl,
it's weird how fast she is. Like, there's a chance she could go to the Olympics, like, not to be dramatic, but I'm like, man, she's fast. Certainly faster than I could ever dream of being.
Gina (05:23)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ god, yeah. I'm negative on the old speedometer.
Kathryn (05:28)
And that's the thing.
There's no way I would be able to do that. Yeah, no, she's very fast. Yeah.
Gina (05:30)
I'm
So awesome.
Kathryn (05:36)
Anyway, that's my update.
Just proud. It's like very, ⁓ we've got like strong feminine energy over here this weekend. That's like kind of how it is, yeah. Yeah.
Gina (05:45)
I love that. Love it. Especially
for March. Love it for femme fatale.
Kathryn (05:51)
I know, right? Yes, I love this.
Gina (05:52)
Great. Excellent.
Speaking of femme fatales, ⁓ I'm really, yeah, I'm stumbling my way through this transition. I would love to hear this story because I know next to nothing about it, but it's a name that I have heard so many times.
Kathryn (05:55)
Are we transitioning?
Okay.
Yes.
This is definitely a name that most likely everyone has heard. And unfortunately, I'm not gonna be able to tell the whole story and everything that I want to talk about with this story because it would be a 10 part episode. We could do a whole podcast on this story and probably people have. ⁓ But before I get started,
am remembering a content warning, because this is a big one. I only remember during the really aggressive ones. So, content warning for domestic violence, sexual assault, and just various forms of both physical and emotional abuse. I will do my best to warn everyone when we're coming up on the parts, but it is...
Gina (06:36)
Okay.
Kathryn (06:59)
woven throughout this whole story. It's pretty much the topic of this entire story. So it does get pretty intense. Just want to give a fair warning right at the beginning.
It all started as these stories usually do with a whirlwind romance. Lorena Gayo and John Wayne Bobbitt, which was his real name.
⁓ were just two young and very sexy people swept up in the promise of a new life together.
But behind closed doors, that love story did not take long to fracture, unraveling into allegations of abuse with one particularly violent night that would explode into a media circus.
which painted Lorena as one of the most dangerous women of the 90s, despite the much darker truth that hid beneath
the surface. So let's take it back to the beginning. We'll get to the whole media frenzy because you know I picked this story because of how much I love a 90s media frenzy. So we get to all of that, Lorena was born in 1969 in Ecuador and her family moved to Venezuela when she was pretty young. So she grew up in Venezuela.
Gina (08:01)
Hehe.
Kathryn (08:14)
And when she was in high school, she went to Washington DC for a trip and she fell madly in love with the United States. was like, tail as old as time, you know? She came to DC, saw the cherry blossoms blooming in the springtime and was like, American dream officially born. Like, this is what she wanted. You know, this is where she wanted to be. She just thought it was magical.
When she turned 18, just a few years later, she officially moved to the United States on a student visa. And when she got here, she stayed with a family friend in Virginia, essentially the DC suburbs. And she was described as being very shy and quiet. And she kind of just followed along with the other women her age. I don't know exactly who the friends were or how they knew her, but they had
daughters around her age and cousins and stuff like that that she hung out with. And she was described not condescendingly, but just objectively as being very naive. Like she had a very sheltered and conservative upbringing. She was from a very devoutly Catholic family. And she just didn't have a lot of life experience outside of this big move. You know, she went from a very sheltered conservative home life.
to this like brand new land that she didn't really know how to navigate. She was very much a follower at the time. One night in 1988, very shortly after she got here, she and her friends went to a club for enlisted men where she first set eyes on a young Marine named John Wayne Bobbitt.
Gina (10:01)
Mmm, mm-mm.
Kathryn (10:01)
which I'm gonna keep laughing at this name, because I like literally can't with that John Wayne bullshit. Anyway.
So John was originally from Buffalo, New
and his brothers were very much raised in this kind of conservative ⁓ landscape, and they were taught,
to kind of, you know, work hard, be a tough guy, you know, don't show your emotions, blah, blah, blah, that whole, you know, pull up your bootstrap kind of situation, which, you know, for the 80s and 90s was very much a normal upbringing. So that's kind of the environment that he was brought up in. ⁓ When they met, when Lorena and Bob, not Bob, what's his name? John, sorry. I keep thinking his name is Bob Bobbit and it's not, it's John.
Gina (10:46)
John Wayne.
Kathryn (10:52)
Bobbit. Bob-Bobbit. That's kind of the vibe I get from this guy. ⁓ But it is said that it was love at first sight, basically. In the future, when they were asked what they thought of the other person when they first met, neither one of them really had any idea who the other person was. Both of them were just essentially just different variations of.
Gina (10:54)
The name's Bobbit. Bobbit Bobbit.
Kathryn (11:20)
He was hot, she was a babe, we fell in love. Let's see, another tale is old this time, Lorena was quoted as saying that he was just very handsome with nice eyes, and John would describe Lorena as, quote, beautiful, really cute, and had a sweet smile. So the basis for any healthy relationship, if you ask me. So they were married the following summer.
Gina (11:23)
Hmm, tale as old as time.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (11:49)
in June of 1989 when Lorena was 20 and John was 22. things seemed really great for a while.
but it really did not take very long at all for things to take a turn for the worse. Lorena's friends did not like John at all from the beginning. It is sad that it was impossible for him to keep a job. Numerous people could attest to this. Like it would be weeks and he'd get fired. It was...
Gina (12:07)
you
Kathryn (12:22)
reportedly normal for him to show up drunk or not at all
It all seemed to be attached to this drinking problem that he very clearly had, but also didn't admit to. He was very much under the impression that he didn't have a problem at all, but it was keeping him from being able to hold down a job. And Lorena was employed at the time. She was working as a nail tech at a salon and she was the breadwinner of the family because even when he did have a job, they couldn't really rely.
on his paycheck lasting for more than a few pay periods. And she was really good at her job. Everyone really liked her. She was very kind and worked really hard. But it said that not that she wasn't naturally a hard worker, but it seemed very much like she knew how much they relied on her job. So she was picking up extra shifts and working as hard as she could and getting as many clients as she could.
friends and family described their relationship as really volatile and they had frequent arguments and it was just really uncomfortable being around them because no one really knew what to do or what to make of any of it because no one explicitly said this, no one ever called it exactly this but it kind of gave me that vibe of like that couple who...
you know, seems to really love each other, but they just scream at each other. And that's kind of like how they just like get things off of their plate in front of everyone and then go back to just being normal. That's kind of the way people tried to paint it at the beginning.
Gina (14:01)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (14:07)
but over time it became clear that there really was something much deeper going on
While some people would later claim that they knew it was worse than that and did try to help, no one could really have possibly known how bad it was going to get because Lorena didn't really talk about their relationship. John wasn't willing to admit to himself that he had a drinking problem and he, and this is not excusing him whatsoever, but who knows what he actually remembered. It was just a mess. It was just one of those relationships where it was like,
Gina (14:37)
Mmm.
Kathryn (14:42)
once people started to figure out what was happening, it was too late and everyone was kind of mad at themselves for not doing more. But there also really wasn't much that people could do because they just didn't know. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Gina (14:55)
Oh, 100%, and especially when it's not
your relationship, it's not your place. If you're worried about, it's really hard. If you're worried about someone in a relationship, you can say something and that's fine, but there are all these unspoken rules about you don't wanna get involved because that's their business, and that's operating under the assumption that in my head, there's not abuse in this hypothetical relationship that I'm framing, but.
Kathryn (15:00)
It's hard. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Gina (15:23)
obviously different in a situation like theirs.
Kathryn (15:26)
And that did happen. And we'll talk about that toward the end. ⁓ But to take it one step further, you also can't make someone do something, you know? Like, that's why it's just a sticky situation. So it was really difficult. And that's why everyone was real caught off guard and really wishing they had done something when one...
Gina (15:35)
Yeah.
Kathryn (15:50)
fateful night, John came home from a night of drinking with the boys in June of 1993. So right around their four year anniversary and content warning, is said that when he got home, he was severely intoxicated and he did force himself on Lorena before eventually falling asleep. And according to Lorena,
This was not a one-off incident. Not that that would be acceptable regardless, but this was a frequent thing that would happen over and over again. And it was a main piece of abuse that she did endure on a very regular basis. And she would later claim that she had been abused by him for years and not just sexually, but emotionally, physically, et cetera, pretty much since the beginning of their relationship.
and there are numerous people who those claims. We'll go into detail about that later. But this particular night ended up being essentially the final straw for her because several hours after John.
first fell
911 dispatchers got a call from the local hospital saying that they needed officers to come in immediately because a man had been attacked by his wife. And the person on the phone didn't say what had happened initially. They were just adamant that they needed someone right away. And when officers arrived, they discovered that John's penis had been sliced clean off with a kitchen knife.
Yeah, early that morning, Lorena drove herself to the police station, not to turn herself in for castrating her husband, but instead to report John for domestic violence. And when she got there, detectives were like, okay, cool, love where your head's at, but before we get to that, we need you to tell us where your husband's penis is.
Gina (17:57)
I know it's very serious, but.
Kathryn (18:01)
And while we take this very seriously, here on I scream you scream.
We will get to the humor in this because we'll just, let's address the elephant in the room. There is a lot and the reporting on this did not shy away from that whatsoever. And we will get there.
But I'm just going to move past that. was in shock from the whole ordeal. Apparently this had happened several hours prior and she had left immediately after the alleged incident with penis in hand. And she's driving around town in the middle of the night, one hand on the wheel, one hand holding the goods and
Gina (18:35)
you
Kathryn (18:44)
At one point while driving, she kind of like comes to and realizing she's still holding on to this thing, ditches it out the window and just keeps driving.
Gina (18:55)
⁓ okay. Okay, cool. I mean, not cool, but all right.
Kathryn (18:56)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Yes. Same page. Same page. Okay. So she tells the officers her general route. Again, she was kind of not all there when this was all happening, but she told them, you know, I went from the house to she had gone to the salon that she worked at because she was friends with her boss and she didn't have a lot of friends there.
she kind of viewed her boss as like a mentor, big sister type. So she went to the salon to like try to get help or something. I don't know. It was, it's all very strange. Anyway, the route she took went past a 7-Eleven and that is where they found the penis, ditched in this like grassy area outside of the 7-Eleven. I'm sorry. I'm like, me too. I'm, and this.
Gina (19:47)
amazed that they found it.
Kathryn (19:52)
You know, not to steamroll or get ahead, but there is a lot of question. How much did she actually blackout or go into shock or whatever, whatever if she knew exactly where to tell the officers where it was? We'll get to that part. Don't worry. regardless, whether she remembered or not, still impressive that they were able to find it. anyway, ⁓ they pack it up in ice.
Gina (20:12)
Yeah.
Kathryn (20:16)
bring it back to the hospital where the doctors were able to reattach it to John's body successfully. Fun fact, is neither here nor there, but I do think that it is kind of worth noting the title of the doctor who reattached John's penis is referred to as a microsurgeon.
Gina (20:37)
I mean, come on, it writes itself.
Kathryn (20:41)
Which is not
necessarily an important part of the story, but one that I thought was worth mentioning.
Gina (20:50)
⁓ he got the fun-sized one at 7-Eleven. Sorry, sorry. Okay. This is really difficult.
Kathryn (20:53)
Yes. Yeah. I know this is very serious. Sorry. Okay.
Yeah, this is hard. So Lorena was arrested and she fully admitted to all of this. It was very clear what had happened in terms of it being cut off, And during her initial questioning, for which it is very important to note she did not have a lawyer present, would give one of her most infamous and ultimately damning statements, which was, quote,
He always have orgasm and he doesn't wait for me ever to have orgasm. He's selfish. So in mind, she came to this police station to report abuse. She's in shock. English is her second language. She does not have a lawyer present. I just want everyone to keep that in mind for the rest of this story. So.
We can all use our grown adult brains and understand that what she was trying to communicate was, he is forcing me to have sex with him. He is enjoying himself. I am not enjoying myself because this is being forced upon me. But she didn't say that. She said, he's not giving me an orgasm. He's selfish.
So of course, prosecutors take this and run with it, right? Like who wouldn't? And like I mentioned previously, Lorena confided in and really considered her boss, her friend, her boss's name was Jana Bissuti and...
Jana was one of the people who knew that John had been abusive toward Lorena and she felt like Lorena was something of little sister to her. So she felt very protective of her and she was, you know, kind of in the mindset of, I've never been able to get her to leave him before. At least I can help during this process. You know, she could afford to get her a lawyer
And one of the things that she decided to do was to get her PR representative, because right from the beginning, everyone knew this was going to be huge.
Jana knew that once the media got a hold of this story, there was going to be a lot thrown at Lorena and she needed someone to help guide her through that situation and she didn't want people to take advantage of her. But of course they did because that's what people do to easy targets.
The headlines wrote themselves. We have a hot young Latina woman who was rumored to be like hot-headed and kind of insufferable. That was John's side of the story and people in his sphere were like, oh, well, you know, she would snap at him and she was mean and impatient and look at her. She's complaining about not being pleasured, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then...
she's married to this like conventionally attractive military dude whose wife gets so sexually frustrated she chops off his penis. Like that is like the wildest story any journalist could score ever. not only that, but it was kind of difficult to report on because at this point no reputable journalists had ever publicly said or written the word.
Gina (24:05)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (24:16)
penis while reporting serious news before ever. Yes. people didn't know how to approach this. People had a really difficult time because this is a very serious story. know, like this we're dealing with abuse. We're dealing with serious violence. We're talking about maiming some. Like this is a very like psychological and physical damage has been done here. But like
Gina (24:19)
That is crazy to me.
Yeah.
Kathryn (24:47)
What is that headline supposed to be? You know what I mean? So it was a circus. It was an absolute just madhouse. Not only that, but when reporters got wind of the fact that Lorena had hired a media representative, all anonymity that was supposed to come with a sexual assault case went out the window because they took it upon themselves to read it as...
Gina (24:51)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (25:10)
you know, well, she has a PR person, so she clearly wants to capitalize on this. Let's give her the fame and attention she so clearly wants. So they just completely ignored the anonymity side of things. And so she suddenly thrust into the spotlight.
Gina (25:19)
my god.
Kathryn (25:30)
So she panics and realizes that, she has no control.
and she really wants to gain control of the narrative because people are like painting her as this weird monster who maims men for no reason and that's really not what happened at all. So she agrees to do an exclusive interview with Vanity Fair magazine to kind of give her side of the story. And the story is being conducted outside, like lounging by a pool. And at a certain point,
they convince her, the photographer convinces her to like take swimsuit photos, in the pool. Yes, yes. And this spread, we'll share a picture of it, but this spread in Vanity Fair is like, you would think it was Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition. She's like this very sexy, like dripping wet, femme fatale, like I don't know how.
Gina (26:13)
What? Ew.
Kathryn (26:34)
they knew exactly what they were doing. Like, I don't know how to describe this. And I also don't know where the media representative was for this. This is like the type of thing that he was hired to protect her against. I don't know. I don't know how this happened, but ⁓ it did. And it wasn't just an interview with her side of the story. It was this like salacious, dramatic saga, basically.
Gina (26:45)
Yeah.
Kathryn (27:03)
telling the quote unquote true story or real story of the Bobbitts. And it didn't do her side of the story any justice whatsoever. It very much made her look like this sexy attention whore who was not sorry for what she did and was not gonna say anything further about it, which was not the case at all. Like that was not what she intended to communicate by doing this interview. So I don't know.
Who dropped the ball on that? I don't know where her media representative was for that. But this was the big quote, her side of the story article and it did not do what she wanted it to do. And it just made matters so much worse. public response to this story as a whole
was really what you would imagine, especially for the was very much a man versus woman, male versus female type of case. You know, the men were horrified and hated her and like, you know, calling her whore and blah, blah, blah, all these things. you know, we can't even get a hot chick without fearing for our manhood.
Gina (28:00)
Mm.
Kathryn (28:12)
All the women were like, okay, but what did he do? You know, like the women knew, for some cultural context. This was just two years after the Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas case, during which...
Gina (28:18)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (28:28)
Anita Hill testified against Supreme Court Justice candidate Clarence Thomas, accusing him of sexual assault. And he was appointed to the Supreme Court anyway, which sucked and still sucks. women in America were and still very much are like completely distraught over this. And that happened right at the beginning of the 90s. And that really was a situation that kind of painted the public's perception of
you know, kind of sexual roles, but also just where women stood in society throughout that decade. So this being a follow-up to the Anita Hill case was very symbolic. And a lot of people who were already kind of outraged by the abuse against women, just, it kind of was just fuel for the fire.
I mentioned Anita Hill specifically because her case was so huge. And while it was by no means the first high profile sexual assault case in America, it was one of, if not the first big case in the age of court TV. And a huge influx of people
were tuning into real time big profile cases such as this. And Anita Hill was not on court TV specifically, but it was nationally televised. And the fact that one of the highest profile cases being televised at this time was a sexual assault case, it really set the tone for the 90s. And it was the first time people were tuning in literally live instead of reading about it afterwards through the lens.
of the media. So this is the narrative within which the Bobbitt case is occurring. So right off the bat, a lot of people had a lot of opinions, a lot of them not so good, particularly as it applies to Lorena. So they both brought charges against each other. John and Lorena both did.
John was charged with battery and domestic violence and Lorena was charged with malicious wounding. The trial, I know,
Gina (30:40)
I didn't know that was a thing.
Kathryn (30:44)
think it was one of those things that was just all they could get on her. And not saying she didn't do it, but like, you know, it wasn't technically domestic violence. It wasn't technically sexual. You know what I mean? It was like this weird in-between thing. So the trial against John was first and it was not televised because Virginia law prohibits televising sexual assault cases.
Gina (30:48)
you
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (31:11)
to protect the anonymity of the victim. But since her anonymity had already been broken, all this really did
was prevent people from being able to see her side of the story real time. And not that I'm advocating for televising a sexual assault case. It just... It felt like she was a little bit cheated because the purpose for not televising it was already ruined.
another issue with this particular case is the fact that the only, this is gonna piss you off. I'm so annoyed by this. The only evidence that was permissible was any abuse that happened within a five day timeframe of.
the incident, we'll call it henceforth. Yes, that means that Lorena's team could not use any evidence of abuse from any of the prior four years of their entire marriage that she endured to convict him of domestic violence. It had to be from that one week. Don't know. Literally no idea. Yeah. I think I...
Gina (31:56)
What?
Why?
Fucked.
Kathryn (32:23)
iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. If you know why, if you know about legal crap and know the actual reason for this, us know.
tried to look because I knew you're gonna ask that as you should as we all should I'm asking myself and I really I really don't know if that was just the decision that the judge made Yeah, yep Yeah, yep, absolutely. So as with the whole reporting on you know, this entire incident this This trial was a circus people were literally selling t-shirts outside the front of it with like
Gina (32:41)
Okay. All right. Well, negative points.
Kathryn (33:00)
cutesy little like, cut puns, like genuine. I'll see if I can, I'm sure I'll find pictures of it, we'll share them. People were, it was wild. This was the biggest thing that had ever happened to this town and people were eating it up. So John's lawyers are trying to paint him as this like likable boy next door type who claimed there was no way he was drunk that as she claimed he was because he quote,
folded his laundry that night and what drunk person folds their clothes before having sex? That was literally one of the arguments they made.
Gina (33:36)
the implication that sober people fold their clothes before they have sex.
Kathryn (33:41)
Literally my first
thought is I bet you a Virgo would That was literally my first thought I guarantee you that they would do that. Yes I'm like what that was kind of the vibe of their argument and they even went so far as to say they gave him I was gonna leave this out, but I'm like getting heated. They gave him a psychological evaluation and Determined that he was quote incapable of successfully lying
Gina (33:44)
⁓ yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Yeah.
What? ⁓ come on.
Kathryn (34:12)
Like, okay, me too.
Because I just said so What does that mean exactly? Incapable of successfully lying. Yeah, what is that? That's not a psychological deduction
Gina (34:14)
What does that even mean? Yeah. Incapable.
No, no. Incapable.
You can be a bad liar. Incapable of lying? No. In a courtroom? Jesus Christ, that's a joke.
Kathryn (34:33)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm-hmm. I know.
Yep. Yes. So... Anyway, long story not sure. It's gonna be very long episode. I'm sorry. John was found not guilty due to the fact that there just wasn't enough evidence to prove that he had been abusive to her, which, yeah, no shit, if you only give five days.
So, yeah, exactly. So, worst part of this whole story, John became this weird, like, E-list sex icon interviews with this guy after this, like during and after this trial, they were just absolutely nutso-butso, as we like to say here on the pod. Everyone was obsessed with knowing,
Gina (35:01)
of a four-year marriage.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Kathryn (35:27)
whether or not it still worked and you know Lorena wasn't satisfied but you're capable of satisfying other women right like just it was disgusting it was so yes he was on Howard Stern's radio show numerous times and I'm like not even gonna go into detail about those interviews because they're just as gross as you would imagine they would be
Gina (35:39)
my God.
Kathryn (35:51)
There were John Bobbitt lookalike contests at Hooters. There were, it was like, it was a circus. Meanwhile, he had medical bills piling up because not only did he, you know, have to pay for his reattached penis, but he also decided that it would make sense to get a penis enlargement.
Mm-hmm. Which you'll find solace in knowing that it was botched. So he had to like get it fixed. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
Gina (36:17)
Stop. Really?
Right now I'm hearing that scene
from the office where Michael is like, snip, snip, snip, snip. There's only so many times a man can have a, what is it called? You know what I'm talking about.
Kathryn (36:41)
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I know what you're talking about though. Yeah, this
is like really happening. I just, dude, the world is so weird. Meanwhile, Lorena is still getting ripped to shreds this whole time. yeah, John's out and about making a fool of himself and therefore also her because she's looped into all of this. Did I mention he was in a couple of pornos too? Okay, yeah.
Gina (36:55)
Yeah.
No!
Kathryn (37:11)
He won called John Wayne Bobbitt Uncut. And then the subsequent one for which he got the penis enlargement was called Frankenpenis.
Gina (37:17)
Well.
Kathryn (37:26)
I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.
Gina (37:28)
I
don't like this dude.
Kathryn (37:30)
Yeah, this guy fucking sucks. So. Lorena's trial gets going the following year, 1994, and she pled temporary insanity, claiming that at this point in their marriage, she had undergone a significant amount of trauma as a result of his, you know, emotional, physical and sexual abuse. And that night was basically the straw that broke the camel's back. Like she just completely snapped, blacked out.
Gina (37:52)
You
Kathryn (37:59)
castration ensued. Unlike the previous trial, this one was televised because it wasn't a domestic violence case. It was just a regular violence case. And right away, his lawyers carried on the narrative that the media had started by painting her as this jealous, hot-headed woman who would snap, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all the same old stuff. And this time, they...
presented, the reason she did it is because John wanted to leave her because he was the one fed up with her abuse toward him and she didn't like that, so she chopped it off. That was the story they were going with this time.
so Lorena's and his team needed to prove that even though she did do it, it was the result of, it like basically wasn't her fault, it was the result of the trauma that like made her do it. unlike the previous trial, they were able to talk.
about the previous four years and describe how it had built up over all that time. And she detailed every single moment of abuse and probably not all of them, but
amount of detail that she had to go into in order to successfully prove that it was reasonable for her to snap was so... Honestly, I took literally probably 30 pages of notes and needed to stop because they went into such severe detail. And I'm not gonna share all of the things here, but I will say for the rest of me describing the trial, we will be talking about some things that...
They are obviously sensitive. So content warning from here on out. I'm not going to go into like the nitty gritty or anything like that, but it just it was a lot. if anyone does go into details about this trial, just be warned. So Lorena did testify that the first time he hurt her, he was drunk and just completely lost it on her. And he was like punching her and kicking her and just beating the crap out of her. And
she was finally able to escape and call, like long enough to call the cops. But by the time they got there, his whole demeanor had changed. Like he had become an entirely different person and was being super level-headed and accommodating to the officers, basically making it look like she was the one who was like having a mental breakdown for no reason, which like enter emotional abuse, right?
her neighbors testified on her behalf and every single one of them, it was like multiple families. They were in an apartment complex. And so several people stepped forward and every single one of them basically said, I'm paraphrasing, but they all communicated that John was a huge.
piece of shit and they all hated him.
One of the neighbors said that Lorena would stay with them every now and then to essentially get away from John. And they would try to convince her to leave him, but she always went back to him because she was afraid of him. And she was afraid of what he would do if she left him. And not just to her, but she was afraid that the neighbors would get hurt.
too, like she was afraid of him being violent toward other
I mention this because of what we talked about at the beginning. everyone who spoke on her behalf, every single one of them said, I wish I could have done more. Like I wish she had left him. Like I wish she had stayed with us, but I just did not know what to do.
friends and family testified about instances that they witnessed during family gatherings where, like, he would take her aside and yell at her about something one day, just like stupid shit, that he was just a bad guy. And honestly, the footage from the trial is so disturbing. When she is...
forced to talk about the abuse. It's like, you can literally see her dissociating. Like you can watch the moment that she leaves herself. It's so awful. I hate it. It was massive trigger warning for this one. I'm so sorry. It was revealed during her trial that she had gotten pregnant at one point and she claimed
and testified that she was so happy because that was kind of part of her American dream. Like she wanted to be a wife and a mother and have a good job and raise a family and blah, blah, blah. So she was really excited to tell John and basically was just enraged. He felt that they were not ready for a baby and they weren't financially stable enough because she didn't work hard enough and...
I'll give you a second. I've had my time. I'll give you a moment. Yes.
Gina (42:53)
Mm-hmm.
I have nothing to say, I'm just feeling my feelings.
Kathryn (42:58)
Yes.
Yeah. Continue feeling them. It does not get better. Well, it does eventually, but not for several more minutes. I'm so sorry. So he took no responsibility for this whatsoever and was just mad at her. This is the content warning. He did force her to have an abortion and he testified that they both agreed that they wanted an abortion, but neighbors.
and friends testified that that was not the case. Like they all were like, she was absolutely broken over this and basically never the same. They also testified that he told her that she had to choose either keep the baby or stay with him. He also said that if she ever chose to leave him, he would report her to immigration claiming that she was abusing him.
and the child to make sure that she got deported and he would end up with the kid anyway.
Gina (43:57)
was wondering if there was some kind of power imbalance because of the immigration status. Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah.
Kathryn (43:58)
Mm-hmm. Yes. 100%. How could there not be, right? Like,
from the very beginning, and he knew that there was. That's why he was with her from the first place. 100 % there was. There always was. I'm honestly gonna skip past the next few things in my notes because it just gets worse. It just gets worse than that. Like, that's the whole problem. It's just like thing after thing after thing. It's like...
Every thing that an abusive relationship has within it occurs in this story. It's just all of the bad things. And the worst part is you can tell this piece of shit is lying. Like you can tell he's lying because he's doing that thing people do when they lie, when they're like not looking at anyone and they're kind of twitchy and like blah, blah, blah. Not only that, but the things he says in interviews, both present day and back in the nineties.
do not match what he testified on the stand. Like he was blatantly lying. Yes.
Gina (44:59)
he's incapable of lying. How could this possibly be true?
Kathryn (45:02)
What? Okay.
Well then he's innocent. the biggest argument that his team had against her was
she claims that she blacked out and doesn't remember what happened, and yet she is able to describe what happened in detail. How could this possibly be? a couple of things on this, I'm not going to go into great detail.
because this is all available. I'll share my sources, of the things she remembers, she describes them as pictures. She describes it as like seeing what is happening, like not feeling in control of what was happening. was like she was like,
she watched her hand pick up the knife and she watched herself walk to the bedroom. You know what I mean? that's where, you know, when we talk about her knowing where she threw it as she was driving, that was one of the pictures. Like she remembered seeing a 7-Eleven at one point. This is very common with this amount of trauma. And like, you know, when you're dissociating or whatever psychological term you want to use, I don't know.
iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com Please let us know what your take is on her emotional state. that is what happens. It's very hard to, A, remember what you're doing or what's happening to you or around you or whatever. But B, even if you do remember it, it's not, like, you're not really able to make conscious decisions about what you are doing. You just know you're doing them.
And that's what makes cases like this so tricky. Like, yeah, she did something awful. Like, that was a very violent act, you know, to do. But whose fault is it when it is the result of stuff that has been done to her time and time and time again? And I bring all of this up because I found...
One of the psychologists that testified, Her name was Dr. Susan Feister and she testified for the defense. she diagnosed Lorena with PTSD, major depressive disorder,
anxiety disorder and a panic disorder. of these things are why she believed that Lorena didn't have control of her faculties when the situation took she was operating on a purely survival level and her body
was basically telling her to remove the danger from the situation. And because she is the victim of a sexual assault situation, that danger is her husband's penis. So her body did what it needed to do to remove the danger from the situation.
on the flip side, of course, his team also had psychiatrists on the stand and they were all like, no sign of PTSD. She's just a mad woman. Like, as these cases tend to go. Yeah. So we're getting to ⁓
Gina (48:03)
Great.
Kathryn (48:09)
my... it feels so weird to say this, but my favorite part of this story...
The public was starting to warm up to her now that, you know, this is all being televised and she is finally able to tell the story that she hasn't been able to tell this entire time. we still had a lot of back and forth. all of the abuse was being described by people who were on her side.
So there was still that question mark of like, well, are they just trying to help her get off? There was still that like, you know, inability to believe women, essentially. That part was not my favorite part. Now we're getting to my favorite part, just to clarify. So that was the case until the defense called to the stand a woman named Regina Keegan, who had had an appointment at the salon with Lorena.
Gina (48:42)
Hmm.
Hehehehehe
Kathryn (49:02)
just a couple of days before the incident. did not know each other. She had never had an appointment with her before. She just wanted to get a quick manicure and eyebrow wax. So was like a last minute appointment. She was assigned Lorena. Great. Regina testified that the moment Lorena sat down, woman, Regina, noticed that
Lorena's arms were completely black and blue from her hands to her elbow where her sleeves were. And Regina was caught off guard by this, so she kind of involuntarily gasped at seeing this. And it kind of freaked Lorena out, and she pulled her sleeves down and was kind of apologetic or whatever. It was like she had been caught or something with her injuries.
And asked if she was okay and like what had happened and it basically all came spilling out of Lorena. It was like word vomit. She confided in Regina about everything, all of the abuse and like the fact that she was afraid of her husband and that he hurt her and she didn't want to go home. Like just everything, you know, it was like, was like she finally felt like she could tell someone and like, you know, not that she could do anything, but she was just like, it was.
putting it all on the table. And really felt for her. She was like really caught off guard, not expecting to experience this at a fricking manicure appointment, you know? And so she offered to let Lorena come home with her so that she could help her like figure things out and basically escape. And Lorena declined.
For the same reason that she had declined with her neighbors, she said that she couldn't leave John because he would hurt her and she was afraid that he would hurt Regina. And in a later interview, Regina would say that she gave Lorena big hug before she left the appointment and it felt like hugging her young daughter. That's how small and helpless and broken Lorena felt to her. And sorry, I'm getting emotional. Sorry, hold on.
Gina (51:06)
Aww.
Kathryn (51:12)
I can do it. Mini cry break. Okay. So this all happened. They part ways. And Regina would say like she could never shake this encounter. You know, she really hated that she couldn't do anything for Regina. For Lorena. And it was several months after this encounter that Regina was...
folding the laundry one day and she had the news on and all of a sudden she sees footage of this quote crazy woman who was charged with castrating her husband and she was like, oh my God, that's her, that's the girl, you know? Like she literally is like calling all her girlfriends like I found her, like there she is. And so Regina calls someone, I don't remember who, like courthouse or someone or something like that and she's like.
I'm paraphrasing, but she's like, fuck this guy. He had it coming. Like I can prove that she really was abused. Like, you know, whatever. He like, this is not her fault. This was a damaged girl. And so they get her in contact with Lorena's attorney who calls her to the stand and she recounts everything and
Because of Regina's testimony, that caused one of the state psychiatrists to change his mind on the diagnosis. sorry, I'm just like, this is the most like women supporting women's story. I just like, I love Regina so much. Okay, normal, I'm normal, okay. So a man named Dr. Miller-Ryans reached out to Regina to interview her.
Gina (52:47)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (53:01)
personally and based on what she had to say to him, he was able to get a glimpse of what Regina had witnessed just days before the incident. Whereas all of the other information that they had was like the retrospective version of it, right?
You know, was interviews being conducted after the fact and friends and family being able to say, I knew it the whole time. But there was always that question mark of like, why didn't you do anything? We've already covered my feelings on that. But like, this was the first time that you had someone 100 % objective, 100 % unbiased and like able to give a very clear picture of what actually she was.
going through and the state that she was in. And she was essentially the equivalent of just a fly on the wall of the whole situation. And it was considered the most important witness testimony because of that. She was kind of like the buzzer beater of this entire case. Women in particular were extremely invested in the verdict of this case for like,
the same reasons we're all going through what we're going through right now. So many women could see themselves in Lorena and it felt like, and not only that, one thing we've not really touched on a whole lot besides him threatening to deport her, but like she was very much a symbol for immigrant women as well because like so many women deal with that and so many of them feel like they can't say anything.
And here she is in the spotlight, like saying all the things that women can't say, really.
all of this is to say it was a huge relief and celebration when the jury did find Lorena not guilty by reason of insanity. So big celebration, everyone's relieved. you know, he did justice was not served to John because his trial had already happened and he also walked free. But this felt like, you know, we'll take whatever when we can get.
That was all great and wonderful, because like per Virginia law at the time, but also I think still to this day, because she was found guilty because of insanity, she still needed to be held for 45 days in a maximum security mental hospital.
that made Lorena feel so defeated. It was like, OK, yes, I'm not guilty, but I still need to be locked up while he's out doing interviews with Howard Stern. Like, what the fuck?
was an evaluation to determine whether or not it was safe for her to be out or if she was like, you know, actually criminally insane. But it was just another gut punch. Ultimately, the 45 days did pass and it was determined that she was mentally stable. This was all just a result of the abuse she had endured by John and
I think she did, I don't know if she was required to go to therapy after this. I think she did regardless. I'm not totally sure about that, but she ended up free and an innocent woman, officially. Aftermath is wild. I like have some more things to say about John. Kinda don't wanna say them because like... ⁓
I feel like we've heard enough from him. I will say he was convicted of domestic violence the following year and a couple years later, ⁓ multiple women. one of the women that he had, brought charges against him, brutal, he kidnapped her, tortured, it was just the whole thing all over again. And he, yeah, that guy's just a piece of fucking shit. I hate him so
Gina (56:37)
Hmm. Imagine that.
Fuck
him.
Kathryn (56:57)
Anyway, so forget John, we're done with John. We're moving on. Let's get back to Lorena. It was, of course, still very important to her for her story to continue being told. So they planned to have a TV movie made from her perspective, finally fully telling her story. And she would later be quoted as saying, I did not plan to be in the spotlight. It was not intentional.
But for some reason, people thought that they could always make money off of my story. I just wanted to lead a simple life. I went through so much and I had to somehow get the strength to move on. And about a year after everything happened, Lorena started to go to women's shelters and she would basically share her story and like hear stories from the women there. And she realized that her story really wasn't that unique. She just happened to be the one that was like,
chosen to be the spokesperson for all of it because of the kind of outrageous, I'm going to say, outcome of her trauma. hearing that she wasn't crazy and she wasn't really out of the ordinary brought her a lot of comfort. And she did end up speaking at women's shelters full time. And she does credit that.
was being a huge part of her healing. Like she didn't really view it as something she was doing for them. It was something that like she needed to do to help her move on. And after that, she decided to go to school. So she enrolled in college and that's where she would become good friends with a man named David Bellinger. And they would eventually become long-term partners and have one daughter together. So Lorena did finally become a mom, like she always wanted to.
And as far as I could find, she and David are still together as of today, but they're not married. She's like very happily not married to him. I'll put it that way. Yeah. And she, in an interview I saw with her, she was kind of cheeky about it. And she said something like, you know, I'm not saying no, but I haven't said yes yet. You know, like they've been together for like 20 years at this point. So.
Gina (58:57)
Good for her. Yeah.
Kathryn (59:13)
Anyway, while she was painted as this like super sexy yet violent, like femme fatale, quote unquote, Lorena really was just a young girl with an American dream and it was a bumpy as fuck road to get there. But I do want to take the opportunity to like find comfort in the fact that she
have a happy ending
Gina (59:36)
Thank God. I mean, talk about someone who deserves a happy ending.
Kathryn (59:38)
I know.
I know. and she seems so sincere. I will say one of, I was very familiar with this story. This is, I hate saying this, but it is my favorite true crime case. But it is my favorite true crime case because.
she has her happy ending. And just the media circus and everything, it's just one of those things that it was so culturally relevant at the time. If not for Anita Hill and OJ Simpson, it would have been the case of the 90s.
I will say one of my biggest sources for this and just all of the details was a mini series called Lorena and it is on Prime. It was produced by Jordan Peele, which I didn't know, but it's done so well. Yeah, it's done so that was why I ended up watching it because I was like, I didn't want anything tabloid so I wasn't going to watch anything on it. But I saw he did it. I was like, OK, this is going to be good. And it is.
Gina (1:00:26)
Love that.
Kathryn (1:00:39)
The best part about it, it is told as objectively as possible and John still makes himself look like a fucking asshole in it. So like, yeah, I'm just gonna leave it at that.
Gina (1:00:48)
Hmm.
Kathryn (1:00:55)
Anyway, I'm done, sorry. And thank you for your time. Man, I really gotta stop doing stories like this. I promise I'll do a nice light one someday.
Gina (1:00:59)
Yeah.
But this is such an important story though, because it's a version of the same story that we hear all the time, but that doesn't make it any less important.
Kathryn (1:01:09)
so important.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (1:01:19)
keep thinking about Regina and getting like, huh, you know? But also...
Kathryn (1:01:22)
I can't, I literally can't. Podcast milestone?
I've never cried on the podcast before.
Gina (1:01:28)
my gosh, joint crying session. I cry, you cry? Is that an ending segment? I cry, you cry.
Kathryn (1:01:32)
my god, yes, that's our spinoff show.
Gina (1:01:35)
Thank you for telling this story because it's important to tell it.
Kathryn (1:01:38)
You're welcome.
I love this story in a very, like...
I love it in like an academic sense. Like it has the pillars of everything that I am interested in and it's a horrendous story. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Gina (1:01:50)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kathryn (1:01:53)
Anyway, can I pass it over to you? For the love of God, please.
Gina (1:01:55)
you can try.
am going to tell you a scary on top. ⁓ Because few weeks ago, Tom and I went to a show in London over the weekend and it got me in the mood to tell you about theater ghosts.
Kathryn (1:02:16)
my God, okay.
Gina (1:02:17)
Yes,
so we're gonna take a step back from the true crimey bits and we're gonna talk more like, paranormal-y haunting. Yeah. Okay, so today I want to tell you about a very specific haunting at London's oldest theater called Drury Lane. Like the, yeah, yeah, have you heard of Drury Lane before? Okay, yeah.
Kathryn (1:02:24)
Love it. Take me there.
Okay, yeah, I've heard of it, yeah. I don't know like
specific ghost stories, but I've heard this name before on like haunted place things, yeah.
Gina (1:02:43)
Okay, perfect. Yes,
so ⁓ Drury Lane is pretty much smack bang in the middle of London and it's been there for about 350 years. So a very long time. And over the course of its history, it has been demolished, it's been burned down on two occasions, and it was also bombed during World War II. But each and every, yeah, it's gone through a lot. I know, yeah. But each and every time it's...
Kathryn (1:03:06)
Oh my God. That's like so dramatic.
Gina (1:03:13)
come back and it remains to this day a staple of London's West End, but not just for its history or its shows, but also because Drury Lane is known as one of the most haunted theaters in Britain, which is why you've probably heard about it. It gets talked about a lot in the same sentences like most haunted XYZ of whatever. And its most famous ghost is called the Grey Man.
Which is interesting, because we've talked about gray ladies, or like women and white, but we haven't really talked about a gray man before.
Kathryn (1:03:41)
Yeah!
Especially gray is like, what is that?
Gina (1:03:48)
I know, yeah. So he's most often seen in the audience area of the theater where the seats are. And when people do see him, it's almost always during the day. Normally, like just me, when I think about seeing ghosts, I think about like nighttime and darkness because it's like spooky and scary, but that's not the case here. He comes during daylight hours and he's reported to look very like 18th century vibes.
Kathryn (1:04:06)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (1:04:16)
So he's got like a tricorn hat, a cloak. Some say he has a powdered wig, that kind of thing. I know, I love very, you can tell why I picked this because, yeah, 100%. And pretty much every time someone spots him, he's doing the exact same thing. It's like he's taking a walk through the aisles and the seats area and he's approaching the royal box. But right before he gets there, he like,
Kathryn (1:04:23)
⁓
I know, from start to finish, yeah.
Gina (1:04:46)
disappears into the wall.
Kathryn (1:04:49)
⁓ I wonder. Sorry, I'm like, okay, continue, continue,
Gina (1:04:51)
Mm-hmm.
No,
I want to hear what you were going to say because I might be able to answer it.
Kathryn (1:05:00)
No, I just wonder if it's a residual haunting or if he's like really wandering around.
Gina (1:05:07)
I think it's a residual haunting because the story goes that in 1848 we discovered a clue as to who he might be and where he might be going because around this time the theater was undergoing renovations and during that the workers realized that one of the walls sounded like it was hollow So they broke through the wall and on the other side. They found a secret room with a skeleton in it
wearing gray clothes with a knife sticking out of its ribs.
Kathryn (1:05:42)
What? That is so dramatic!
Gina (1:05:44)
Yes.
It's not a bona fide fact, this is like the story goes kind of thing, but wild.
Kathryn (1:05:52)
that's a fact. It's gotta be. Yeah.
Gina (1:05:53)
that's a fact on this podcast, yeah.
Sadly, we don't know who the skeleton belonged to. I would say probably the ghost, but what do I know? But that room is not the only place where the gray man is said to appear. That's just where he's most often found, kind of in the seating area. At least two people have also reported seeing him in their dressing room. One of them was a Regency-era comedian named Joseph Grimaldi.
Kathryn (1:06:04)
Yeah.
So,
Gina (1:06:23)
AKA the father of the modern clown. Fun fact. You may have heard about him at the clown museum. I don't know. You probably did.
Kathryn (1:06:27)
Okay.
I bet I did. I'll go back
and I'll look at my pictures from, I took a bunch of pictures of all the placards and stuff. I wonder if he, I'm sure he was in there, yeah.
Gina (1:06:42)
Yeah,
yeah, that's a whole thing. He has like a whole story we could get into another time. But the other person who reported seeing the gray man in his dressing room a pantomime performer named Dan Leno. And ironically, both of these men are now also said to haunt the theater.
Kathryn (1:06:47)
Yeah.
cool.
Gina (1:07:03)
So like, is there a correlation between people spotting him outside his normal kind of zone and later on haunting the same theater? I don't know, who am I to say? Simply Gina. But these days, despite how scary he sounds, the gray man is actually seen as a very good sign because he tends to appear just before the run of a very successful show.
Yeah, so his presence is seen as like a good sign that whatever you're about to perform is gonna do really, really well. And this has happened quite a few times throughout the theater's history. shows with famous runs like The King and I, Oklahoma and Miss Saigon, just to name a few. He was spotted before all of these began their West End run. So his presence is kind of seen as like the paranormal equivalent of break a leg.
right before a show. It's like a good luck charm. Yeah, and that's it. That's the Grey Man. There is so much more we can get into on Drury Lane. This is a very condensed, very focused snippet of some of the hauntings there, but it is a fascinating rabbit hole that we will go down one day.
Kathryn (1:07:55)
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. That's cool.
Yeah,
okay, I kind of love the idea of if you see him, you will also haunt the theater because it almost feels like he is presenting himself to people as like a, you're cool. We can hang kind of vibe. That'd be fun.
Gina (1:08:29)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (1:08:34)
you know.
Gina (1:08:34)
have a theory that it was like a director or someone that wouldn't hang out on the stage necessarily. I'm picturing like during a tech rehearsal or a dress rehearsal, him like sitting in the audience and then to make sure that the Royals would have a good view, he goes to walk over to their box and like goes into the secret room and I don't know, there's something.
Kathryn (1:08:58)
Yeah, mine was much more dramatic than that. Mine was like a lover of like one of the actress's lovers and then her husband found out and that's where the knife in the ribs came from or something.
Gina (1:09:03)
⁓ could be.
You know, I'm pretty sure I
remember reading that as one of the, like, popular theories. So you just had a psychic moment.
Kathryn (1:09:17)
it's gotta
be. Well, it doesn't, that's not really a stretch when it, yeah, so psychic moment.
Gina (1:09:20)
The psychic moment!
Kathryn (1:09:26)
Yes, correct.
That's cool. I really like that story a lot.
Gina (1:09:32)
Yeah, yeah, me too. It's one of my favorites. And if you liked that story, feel free to leave us a review or a rating wherever you are listening to us. You can also send us a story at iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com if you want to be included in a scary on top. Real quick before we let you go, just a reminder, we do have a Patreon and it's very, very fun. So you should probably join us over there. But until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (1:09:46)
Yeah.
And keep it creepy.
