Ep. 47: The Wendigo
Kathryn (00:10)
Welcome to I Scream You Scream. My name is Kathryn.
Gina (00:14)
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:16)
and it is still spooky season. ⁓ We're working our way through September and the theme we've been discussing is it's not what it seems. And while we're telling stories that are not quite what they seem, we are enjoying ice cream with magic shell syrup on top. We're just, we're very close. We're just, what, a week or two away from our first birthday. So happy spooky season, happy birthday.
Gina (00:39)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (00:43)
And the only thing we want, the only thing on our list is a five star review from you listening to us right now. Yes, you while I'm rambling as I am want to do. You can go do it. You can give us a five star as I'm sitting here working my way through this sentence as a thank you. We would love to send you a free sticker. It's our logo, a sticker of our logo, Billy Sprinks which why don't we pop it into the YouTube? I don't think we've done that yet. Here.
Gina (01:09)
Yeah, yeah, let's do that.
Kathryn (01:12)
or here, I don't know where it's gonna be. It's gonna be somewhere. Yes, yeah. You can also just look at whatever app you're listening to us in at what our photo is. That's the sticker you're getting if you send us a screenshot of your five star rating to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com along with an address where we can send you said free sticker of our logo, Mr. Billy Sprinks But yeah, until then.
Gina (01:13)
Anywhere, anywhere we want.
Kathryn (01:38)
My guess is you've got the five-star review already finished ⁓ until you send us your address. ⁓ Go ahead and grab a spoon and let's dig in. And I'm very excited about something that looks like Gina has to say.
Gina (01:42)
You
⁓ I have some shit to tell you. Okay, hold on. Let me take a bite of my ice cream real quick.
Kathryn (01:54)
Yeah.
yeah, sorry, I got ahead of myself.
Gina (01:58)
Hehehehe!
So there I was. Last night, brain rotting on Instagram, scrolling through reels. And I keep getting these like same two comedians that pop up over and over again do this bit where they're like an obnoxious rich couple, but they're actually really funny and satirical and they actually have a really cute supportive relationship. Out of curiosity, I went to the guy who plays the husband. I went to his Instagram.
Kathryn (02:05)
my god, okay.
Okay.
Gina (02:27)
He's a guy named ⁓ Clayton Ferris. And in his bio, it said he was Terry in Weapons. And I checked IMDB, and he is in fact a guy named Terry in Weapons. So I don't know who Terry is or what his motivation was, but he's hilarious.
Kathryn (02:39)
⁓ wait, let me.
my god, stop! Wait! Okay!
Okay, that's interesting because Weapons is very much not a funny movie, but this character, I could see him being very funny.
Okay, that's
interesting. That's fun. He has a very small part, like important.
Gina (03:02)
And
I should also mention for posterity's sake, I bring this up because last week we were talking about Weapons. So it is relevant.
Kathryn (03:10)
yeah, well, I'm sure people, yeah,
that feels a long time away ago, whatever, from us, but...
I have faith that everyone will remember. don't know if I did. I just know I've been talking to you about it. Yeah, I'm remembering now how aggressively I brought it up last. Last week or two weeks ago? I don't remember. See, I don't know. We were recently talking about it. ⁓
Gina (03:31)
I have no idea, no clue. I also, I
have two other things to say that I forgot to write down in our little notes area. So the first is that I am a little bit under the weather right now. So if I sound like I have a kazoo stuck up my nose, it's because that's how I feel. Just gonna put it out there. Secondly, I saw something else on Instagram that made me think of you because of those little like Halloween sugar cookie. You have like a little pillow.
Kathryn (03:39)
Okay. my gosh.
yeah.
hahaha
Me?
Gina (04:00)
thing of it in your background right now the little sugar cookie guys with the pumpkin on it.
Kathryn (04:02)
I do, I have the
pumpkin, the ghost, and I don't think you can see the cat, but I've got the cat up here, yeah.
Gina (04:08)
So there was someone on Instagram who made a cheesecake and they used that cookie dough as the base for the cheesecake. How genius is that?
Kathryn (04:16)
Oh, that is genius.
Gina (04:19)
And made me think of you. And that's it. Those are my two things.
Kathryn (04:20)
⁓ that's fun.
I saw a thing. I really want to make it. It looks easy as hell, I like, maybe I do have an event I might be able to bring that to or just eat it myself. Anyway, let me tell you what it is. Okay, so it's just like box brownies or whatever brownie recipe you want, just whatever chocolate brownie and you slice them up and put those on top and then.
tap it with Halloween sprinkles and I think there was a layer of something else too. Maybe caramel or chocolate sauce or something like that. But it looks like just a easy Halloween party dessert. And I'm not a big sugar cookie person, but those are so nostalgic and so good. They are very sweet, but they're tiny. So it's not the end of the world.
Gina (04:52)
you
They're so good, yes.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (05:12)
I said that very dramatically, but you know what I'm saying. It's not like I don't want them. They're like not, you know what sugar cookies I hate is those ones that have the frosting on top. I know everyone always gets so mad at me for this. My niece ate an entire fucking box of those one night and she was a mess. my God. I could like, she literally it was like she was.
Gina (05:15)
I know what you're saying,
You're wrong. You're wrong. You're so wrong. They're so good.
Good.
Kathryn (05:38)
on uppers, like it was wild. She was like bouncing off the walls. And I just want to go on record saying I, it was unbeknownst to me that she had eaten the entire box. I thought we were in agreement that we were gonna like have control over ourselves. Yeah, no, I hate those cookies. It gives me like, I, what? That sentence makes no sense to me. Like that is why I, they just,
Gina (05:56)
fucking love them. They don't taste like anything. They're so good.
I have no idea why. I don't know. It's just
so nostalgic.
Kathryn (06:07)
tastes like sweet. just can't see
but they're not so that makes sense to me because they're not nostalgic for me at all. We never had those when I was little like people would have them at birthday parties and I'd be like why like other cookies are so much better. These Halloween ones I feel the same way you do like those are actually like my nostalgia those frosting ones I just can't I can't do it they like hurt me they give me like that weird
Gina (06:14)
Hmm.
Mm.
I love him.
Kathryn (06:36)
I feel like my necksies is what I eat and they're so sweet. Yeah. That.
Gina (06:38)
⁓ I will say I can't have more than one like I wish I could
eat a whole box. can't I can only have
Kathryn (06:45)
Well,
I know people who can to be 13. Yeah. It was wild. That was a rough night.
Gina (06:48)
I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Yeah.
I love the season when you start to get reels and TikToks that pop up of those, what you were describing, like the fun little Halloween dessert, like the ones that look like little witches' fingers and things like that.
Kathryn (07:01)
Mm-hmm.
I know,
yes, yeah. I never make any of them, but I love knowing that I can if I chose.
Gina (07:09)
Me neither. But I always, I'm always
like, ⁓ someday when I have 50 people over for Halloween, which is never gonna happen.
Kathryn (07:17)
Yep. Never.
do have there are two things we're going to that I can going to like forcefully ask if I can please bring something not in like a polite way, but in a please I want to make this please let me kind of way. Because we don't ever host. And I wish we did. But it's like, everyone in the family loves hosting. So it's just already built it like our house isn't
Gina (07:31)
Mm.
Kathryn (07:42)
laid out in a way that makes sense to have things at our place. So I'm like, I don't really have anything that like would make sense to have here, you know? But doesn't mean I can't force all these Pinterest recipes on other people when I attend their functions. Yeah.
Gina (07:46)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Exactly. Exactly. Yes. Also,
this is random. Do you have wind chimes outside your house? Because I hear little tinkling bells. I love it. What a vibe.
Kathryn (08:11)
too. Yes, I do. Yeah.
Yes. Very vibey. We have we have some in the backyard. And I think our neighbors have some too. I need to get some from the front. You also might be hearing cicadas. The bugs are out too. Yeah.
Gina (08:29)
God,
I do not miss cicadas. They're fucking loud. For anyone who doesn't know what a cicada is, mm-mm, nope. They're bugs that just scream. They're loud as fuck. And that's pretty much it. I tried to explain what cicadas were to Tom one time, and he like thought I was joking.
Kathryn (08:34)
You don't have them there? Wow.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, I didn't realize that they weren't everywhere. It's kind of just the sound of summer.
Gina (08:52)
Mm-mm. Or at least like...
And that's why I kind of like... I don't miss them because they're loud as fuck, but it feels more like summer when I'm at home because I hear them, you know?
Kathryn (09:04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Do you guys have those mourning doves?
Gina (09:08)
don't know. I don't pay attention. I'm angry in the morning. I don't want to be awake. I don't listen to anything.
Kathryn (09:10)
but
No, okay, so it's not it's morning like M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G, which is interesting. I don't think a lot of people know that because that's not the first time. Yeah, it's not the first time that I've had a conversation like this. Yeah, it is. They're the ones that go like, I can't do it. But they're like, ⁓ remember those? It's very much like a summertime thing.
Gina (09:21)
I had no idea.
I don't think I
have heard them here actually. Wait, it's mostly seagulls where I live. Which is annoying. Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (09:45)
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yes. Yeah. We had a lot of seagulls in Chicago because of the lake. I
love a seagull, but I do understand that they're annoying. I just think they're funny. I know so there's this whole conspiracy theory about those mourning doves and how like they don't exist anymore. And I hear them all the time. And I was thinking about the other day and I was like, it's not that the birds don't exist anymore. It's that we are adults now and don't
Gina (09:55)
rats of the sky.
Kathryn (10:13)
spend any time outside in the middle of the summer, because like we're at work. You know, like you used to be on summer vacation just like laying in the grass outside listening to them and now none of us do that anymore. So it's kind of sad, but if you're worried that morning doves don't exist anymore, just go outside.
Gina (10:17)
Yeah... Yeah...
Yeah.
Touch some grass and then get back to work. Yes, capitalism, which actually is a pretty, that's not a bad transition to what I'm talking about today.
Kathryn (10:34)
Yeah, go lay in the grass and then get back to your desk.
I was gonna say, so, let's work our way
to whatever tragedy we're talking about today.
What is a Wendigo?
Gina (10:51)
We're talking Wendigos. So before I started researching this topic, all I really knew about Wendigos is like, monster hangs out in the forest. And that's pretty much it. And it turns out, I was completely fucking wrong about what Wendigos are, which is exactly why I picked it for It's Not What It Seems Month. So if you happen to be like me and your experience with Wendigos,
Kathryn (10:55)
Cool.
Gina (11:19)
starts and ends in Hollywood, strap in, because we're gonna crack that wide fucking open. Real quick, before I get properly started, ⁓ definite content warning for this one, I will be talking about cannibalism, mental illness, and colonial fear. ⁓ I don't get into graphic detail with the cannibalism part, but if that is not the vibe today, no worries. ⁓ Cannibalism is gross, so I get it, and we will see you next week. But if you're still here, let's fucking talk about it.
⁓ And let's start at the beginning. What is a Wendigo? Well, a Wendigo is a lot of things depending on who you ask and where you are from. There isn't just one story about Wendigos. They show up across a lot of different indigenous cultures and communities. So there are a lot of different versions of a Wendigo, none of which are more, quote, official than the others. So I'm going to be pulling from a lot of different communities traditions today.
but we can kind of zero in a little bit on traditions from First Nations peoples and Algonquin speaking Native Americans. So Ojibwe, ⁓ Cree, Most of the time, a Wendigo is either a creature that stalks and eats humans or a spirit that possesses humans to engage in cannibalism. In both cases,
they're characterized by like really intense hunger and greed. Wendigos are like always, always starving for their next meal, even if they've just eaten. In most of the stories, some of the most common ones, they are corporeal, which I did have to look up how to pronounce, because it's another one that I've only ever read and not said out loud.
Kathryn (13:05)
I just realized that I think I might be the same way. That is how I always pronounce it in my head, but I don't know if I've ever it or if that's like a...
Gina (13:12)
Corporal real? I don't know.
But yes, they have bodies, like actual physical big scary things that can fuck you up and chomp on you. There are some stories where wendigos are actually psychological, which we'll talk more about later. But the corporeal version of a wendigo is more commonly known.
I'm gonna focus mainly on that for now. Within this kind of tradition, a wendigo is typically a gaunt humanoid monster that eats people and hangs out in the forest, particularly during winter time. And this is a trope that we see with wendigos a lot. Like they're associated with cold, with snow, with ice, anything winter related, kind of wendigo energy. Some traditions even say that wendigos have a heart made of ice. And the reason why it's because one of the hallmarks of a Wendigo is that they're hungry all the time, And winter is typically the season where food was hardest to find. It's when you're at the greatest risk of famine. Ipso facto, greatest risk of resorting to cannibalism in order to stay alive. And some traditions believe that even the act of a human eating another human turns them into a Wendigo. So it's not like Wendigos spring up magically out of nowhere. It's like in some belief systems, a human being can turn into a Wendigo if they eat somebody else. Which again, more likely to happen during winter when everybody is fucking hungry. So really, Wendigo isn't a monster as much as it is kind of a representation of what can happen to someone when they cross that line. It represents this loss of
humanity almost like a point of no return where, you know, once you eat somebody, there is no coming back from that really. It's a cautionary tale of what people can turn into ⁓ if they are not strong enough to resist temptation, even under extreme circumstances. But also in some traditions, that temptation doesn't even need to be eating people. And it feels weird to say like the temptation to eat people, because I'm not.
tempted to eat people. But when you're starving, you know, Donner Party style, you could call it a temptation, I guess. But anyway, the temptation doesn't have to be cannibalism. It can also just be really intense greed. Like if you're too greedy and selfish of a person, that can also turn you into a Wendigo. So Wendigos kind of act both as a warning and as a reminder.
Kathryn (15:27)
⁓ yeah.
Gina (15:54)
that community survival is more important than individual survival. It's really the nightmare scenario that represents like a breakdown in social order. And one thing that's very important to note is that the Wendigo predates any contact with Europeans. It's a very, very old traditional belief. And for a long time, it was primarily passed down through oral histories.
So when Europeans did come over and started encountering stories about Wendigos for the first time, it wasn't presented to them as like a boogeyman type thing. It was presented as a form of sickness, like a very real thing that could happen,
So this is like, Wendigos are a part of people's lives. They're not some scary abstract monster that you just think about in the middle of the night. It's like, it's a real fucking part of belief systems that exist. So while Wendigos often get lumped in with things like Bigfoot, they're really completely different. Like they're not really even a cryptid at all because cryptids are like weird.
kind of maybe real creatures that science hasn't really recognized yet. But Wendigos don't come from like blurry pictures and hearsay. They come from very real cultural and spiritual traditions. So this is the first time I'll get on my soapbox in this episode. Calling Wendigos a cryptid kind of flattens their entire existence into just creepy monster, which misses the entire point of Wendigos, which are again supposed to act as like a metaphor for a warning.
of what happens to society when it breaks down. and I recognize I haven't actually talked about what Wendigos look like yet, I kind of went off in this first part of the script. I will get there, I promise. I will get there. But if anything, Wendigos are maybe most similar to something called a Chenoo which have you heard of a Chenoo before?
Kathryn (17:44)
That's okay, there's time.
I have, yes. Yeah. They're not super commonly talked about, I don't think, in like the realm of, I don't know what to call it, but kind of like what you were just talking about, Not a cryptid, but not necessarily a real animal, maybe, question mark. But yeah, I don't hear about it as much, but yeah, I'm familiar.
Gina (17:56)
I had never heard of a chinu before. Okay, okay.
Mm-hmm. Yep.
no fucking idea what Chenoos are. So if anyone else doesn't know what a Chenoo is, I'm gonna tell you. So basically, it's a Wendigo adjacent ice giant. And they come from the Wabanaki people who are Eastern Algonquin. what's interesting about Chenoos is that there's a belief that they can be cured, which is something you don't hear very much with Wendigos.
So one way to cure them is just by being really nice to them. Whereas for wendigos, when we do hear about cures, it's often like getting them to ingest really fatty meat.
or like drink animal grease, which is very different from just being nice to somebody, but it goes back to the whole starvation and hunger thing. So the differences between Chenoos and Wendigos are more complicated than that. I digress. I just thought it was interesting and I wanted to talk about it because it's my fucking episode. Anyway, back to Wendigos.
What do Wendigos look like?
So in terms of physical appearance, like I said, they are humanoid. So head, torso, arms, legs, whatever.
The thing with their size is that when Wendigos eat a meal, they grow in size proportionate to the meal that they just ate. So if they eat like a big human, they grow a lot. If they eat a tiny human, they only grow a little So they're described often as being really, really tall. Like the kind of standard measure like 15 feet.
four and a half meters, like fucking big dudes or girls. I don't know if they have a gender or sex, but because their body always grows to accommodate their last meal, they're constantly starving. So like they can eat as much as they want, but then their body will just get bigger and they need more to survive. So they're never actually full. Yeah. And because they're always starving, they're also really, really thin and like bony,
Kathryn (20:04)
Oh, yeah, I didn't make that connection. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Gina (20:15)
They're also described as having very like ashen skin, kind of like a gray color. And this part is gross, so I will warn you about that. They're described as having like kind of a fucked up mouth. And the implication here is that they get so hungry that they chew their own lips off.
Yeah, yeah, it's gross. So like already... They are disgusting.
Kathryn (20:38)
hate mouths.
I do.
Well, it's
gross. I don't like teeth trauma specifically is my like, you know how people have like a thing that just is immediate heebie-jeebs?
Gina (20:53)
Yeah.
Kathryn (20:55)
Sorry, I just was thinking of Colette's loose tooth. I Can't that's like on the list of reasons we don't have kids I can't do a loose tooth
Gina (21:04)
Mine is eye stuff, I hate eye stuff, ugh.
Kathryn (21:07)
Yeah, I guess I don't like any type of face trauma or any type of physical trauma at all, but like if I had to rank them teeth like negative 100, that's how far up it is. And then eyes would be like two or three. Anyway, I'm sorry.
Gina (21:18)
Yeah.
Well, I think this is the only
place in the episode where I talk about their lips. So if that makes you feel any better.
Kathryn (21:26)
can handle it within the confines of this type of discussion.
I'm like gonna expect a Wendigo to be like make me uncomfortable. I also don't love cannibalism. So I was gonna do the Wendigo when we were gonna do the Cannibal Month, remember? That's when I saw it on the list. I was like, wait, when was I going to do it? But I had to nope out because I was like, I can't do cannibalism. It's not my vibe.
Gina (21:35)
Yeah, that's fair. That's like their whole thing. Yeah. Yeah.
that would have been really good.
Yeah. I can't do cannibalism for whole month. For
40 to 50 minutes, I can do cannibalism.
Kathryn (21:58)
Yeah, yeah, it is
interesting because the Wendigo is one of my favorite stories. Like I love the metaphor of a Wendigo and just yeah.
Gina (22:05)
Yeah, it's really interesting.
yeah, so already the Wendigo that we're talking about is already very different than like a Hollywood interpretation of a Wendigo.
which usually makes wendigos seem like werewolf-y or like they have a deer head or something like that, which I promise you we will fucking talk more about later, but I can't go down that rabbit hole yet. But wendigos don't just look creepy. They also have great eyesight, really keen sense of smell, great hearing. They can easily move through snow and forests. Picture like the ideal predator. That is what a wendigo is.
And if that wasn't enough, they also smell fucking awful. There is an Ojibwe scholar named Basil Johnson who describes the Wendigo as giving off a quote, strange and eerie odor of decay and decomposition of death and corruption.
And what freaks me out about Wendigos the most is that they aren't necessarily completely animalistic. Like I said, in a lot of belief systems, they are human on the inside. So a lot of traditions believe that Wendigos maintain their communication skills after they transform, just like humans have. And they can actually use them to taunt their victims. ⁓ In some stories, they can even mimic the voices of a loved one to lure you further into the forest.
Kathryn (23:31)
See, that's why I thought you had this under It's Not What It Seems. This fits so well for this topic in like so many ways. I hate a mimic. Mimics scare me.
Gina (23:38)
In so many ways. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
I'll fall for it every time. Every fucking time.
Kathryn (23:47)
Yeah, like those
stories you hear about people thinking they hear their mom calling them to come downstairs or something, but they know their mom's not home. Just like anything like that. just, because why would you not respond to someone you know that's such a tricky, scary power to have over someone?
Gina (23:59)
Yeah.
I know, Mimics,
Doppelgangers, any of it, just, oof
Kathryn (24:08)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (24:10)
Yeah, another creepy thing about Windigo's is they can also like use tools to help them while they're hunting. Like they're fucking smart. And I actually, I have a story for you about how ⁓ smart and intentional and patient Wendigos can be. It's the first story I'm gonna tell you of a series, but I think the rest of them come later. Anyway, that doesn't matter. So this story comes from an ethnographer named Lottie Marsden. And it's about how a long time ago,
a Wendigo kind of abducted a Native American boy to eat, like took him away, took him into the woods, was gonna feast on him. But the boy was too skinny, didn't have enough fat on his bones. So the Wendigo kept the boy with him and waited for him to fatten up. Time passed, the boy didn't get any bigger, didn't get any fatter. And so the Wendigo got sick of waiting. wound up bringing the boy back.
to his village and told him like, hey, go get some shit to eat and then come back here so I can eat you. And while the boy was in the village, he obviously told people like, hey, there's a fucking Wendigo near here. He wants to eat me. Can somebody help? And as proof, he like showed them the injuries that the Wendigo had given him. So the villagers, they go to find this Wendigo and they cut off its legs, which they thought, okay, that'll do it. go back to the village, everything's great.
Later on, they go back to see if the wendigo is dead yet, and instead they found it sucking the marrow out of its own leg bones.
Kathryn (25:44)
oof oof
Gina (25:45)
Yeah. Yup, gross.
Even like auto cannibalism, it's disgusting. anyway, the villagers wound up cutting the wendigo into tiny pieces.
Kathryn (25:54)
Great.
How to kill a Wendigo
Gina (25:57)
But on that topic, so cutting a wendigo into tiny pieces isn't the only way you can allegedly kill a wendigo. Depending on their tradition, they could also be killed with silver, steel, or iron. So kind of a little bit werewolf-y in that way. But some legends also say that in order for a wendigo to truly die, you need to cut its heart out and burn it. Which kind of gets back to one of the core
parts of Wendigo lore, which is that the human is still in there somewhere. just overcome with greed and hunger and starvation, like kind of, it's almost like they're pushed into a dark corner of their mind and they can't control what they're doing because they're just so hungry. legend goes that the spirit of the human is still within the Wendigo's heart. And the only way to kill the Wendigo is to
kill the human inside as well. So you gotta go for the heart. is worth noting though that some legends say that the human can be saved. Most legends don't. In most you do have to kill them both. they have also made an impact in the field of psychiatry.
Wendigo psychosis
By the time the 20th century rolled around, people started using the term Wendigo psychosis to describe a cultural syndrome, which is most commonly experienced in the winter time, where a person becomes convinced that they're a Wendigo and actually starts to crave human flesh. And real quick.
A cultural syndrome is basically when a certain group of symptoms show up within a specific community. So it's not necessarily something that comes about because of biology. It's more so because of a system of shared beliefs or expectations within that culture. There's lots and lots of examples of cultural syndromes. If you just Google it, I tried to find a few examples and I wound up finding way too many. So I had to cut that bit out, but just Google it. It's fucking fascinating. So the fear of becoming a wendigo basically becomes so
Kathryn (27:48)
you
Gina (27:53)
deeply rooted within a culture that it actually shapes people's behavior and psyche. And Wendigo psychosis itself is characterized by symptoms like paranoia, depression, and of course cannibalistic urges. And in some First Nations communities, symptoms also include intense feelings of greed and a desire to destroy the environment,
Kathryn (28:10)
Jesus Christ.
That's really interesting
it's such a, what's the word I'm looking for? it feels very just like fuck you as like a cherry on top situation. You know what I mean? Like there's no, not that there's any reason for any of these things, but it's like, I'm also gonna destroy the environment. know, like just anger and destruction
Gina (28:39)
Yeah!
Kathryn (28:42)
for no other reason but anger and destruction, you know, I don't know what the word is for that, but...
Gina (28:44)
Yes.
I don't know what the word, but yeah, yeah, totally, yes.
Modern psychiatry doesn't really recognize Wendigo psychosis. They see it more as like a product of culture rather than a formal diagnosis or even as a metaphor for mental illness, which I personally think that that's a little bit dumb, but I'm not a psychiatrist, so what do I know? Whatever, at the very least, what it does show us is how deeply the legend and fear of the Wendigo has been embedded within certain communities.
So with all of that in mind, I think it's story time. Would you like to hear a few stories about Wendigos? Great. I have a few. Some are about Wendigos. Some are more like in the Wendigo psychosis territory. And you are not gonna like some of these, so I apologize in advance.
Kathryn (29:32)
Okay.
I was gonna say, so wendigo psychosis is new to me. I've ⁓ never experienced that, so I am scared and looking forward to those stories specifically.
Stories about Wendigos
Gina (29:44)
I guarantee it's almost exactly what you would expect.
The first written account of Wendigos
One of, if not the earliest, written accounts referencing Wendigos comes in the 1600s from Jesuit missionaries in Eastern Canada. And they reported like this is a written record they wrote about this, that within a group of Cree hunters, a few of them
Kathryn (29:48)
Great.
Gina (30:10)
began craving human flesh and even resorted to killing and eating members of their party. Eventually, local villagers killed the men who were suffering from this to stop them from hurting anyone else. And ultimately, the situation was blamed on a Wendigo. Do have a quick side note on this one. There is a quote from the record that the missionaries left behind that I want to read to you because I want to see if you have the same reaction I did. So.
Kathryn (30:38)
God,
okay.
Gina (30:39)
It's talking about ⁓ the men who were suffering from this Wendigo or Wendigo psychosis and it says, quote, this makes them so ravenous for human flesh that they pounce upon women, children and even upon men.
Kathryn (30:54)
⁓ Okay, well.
Gina (30:59)
Even upon men.
Kathryn (31:00)
I do have a reaction to that. Christ. OK. The most horrible of side effects. Yes. Right. Yeah. Jesus Christ.
Gina (31:04)
Mm-hmm.
Can you believe the women and children? Sure, but the men? No, my goodness. Anyway, on to my next story.
The story of Swift Runner
So the most famous case involving Wendigos is that of a man named Swift Runner. He was a Cree trapper in the 1870s. And after a particularly brutal winter in 1878, Swift Runner emerged in the spring and he went to one of the local Catholic missions alone.
claiming that his wife and children had all died of starvation during the winter. Pretty much immediately everyone was very suspicious of this because one, where Swift Runner and his family lived was only about 25 miles away from emergency food supplies. So that's far, especially in the winter, but when you're starving, you could do it. Plus, Swift Runner weighed over 200 pounds and he didn't seem malnourished in any way.
Kathryn (32:09)
Interesting.
Gina (32:11)
It came out eventually that Swift Runner had actually killed and eaten his wife and five children But he maintained that he didn't do it of his own free will he had been possessed by a wendigo He did eventually confess and he was hanged within a year and this interesting fact was the first legal execution in Alberta. This thereason why this is the most one of if not the most famous cases about a wendigo is because it became Kind of the ultimate cautionary tale about how desperation can turn someone into a monster on par with legend It gets brought up a lot when people talk about wendigos
The story of Jack Fiddler
I'm gonna give you one more story It comes from 1907. It's about a man named Jack Fiddler
Kathryn (32:53)
Yeah.
Gina (33:00)
Fiddler was an Oji Cree shaman and he was known for hunting wendigos. Apparently he had killed at least 14 people who were said to have been possessed by wendigos. This was like his thing. He knew what he was looking for. He was good at doing it. In 1907, Canadian authorities arrested Jack and his brother for murdering a woman who they believed was turning into a wendigo. And the case kind of blew up.
Jack argued that killing her was necessary in order to avoid more deaths, y'know, her eating people, but the law said, murder is murder. And in the papers, Jack was made out to be
this superstitious, murderous maniac, but to his community, he was respected. He was one of the few people willing to carry the burden of protecting people against Wendigo. So it was polar opposites in how these different cultures and communities viewed what he was doing. Before the trial, he wound up escaping from custody and sadly killing himself in the woods. And his brother was sentenced to life in prison
where he was eventually pardoned, but he died just three days after learning he would be released.
Kathryn (34:18)
So he wasn't released, it was after he learned. Like he hadn't been released yet. That sucks.
Gina (34:24)
I don't think he had been released yet. Mm-hmm. Just sad. Yeah.
Wendigos in modern pop culture
So let's talk about Hollywood. In terms of modern representations of Wendigos, like we've already said, there are a lot of differences. Wendigos are still an extremely important traditional story, particularly in Algonquin communities. But outside of that,
Kathryn (34:32)
Okay.
Gina (34:50)
it's morphed into just a generic kind of monster. A lot of people around our age got introduced to Wendigos through scary stories to tell in the dark, which I know you love. So I don't know if you remember ever, yeah. So I think if I'm not wrong, it's from the first book. okay, so it talks about a Wendigo, but it doesn't actually have a Wendigo in it. It just like discusses a Wendigo.
Kathryn (35:03)
⁓ wait, which one's the when to go? What? I don't remember this.
⁓
Gina (35:19)
⁓ Yeah, like
Kathryn (35:19)
gotcha, gotcha, okay.
Gina (35:20)
the story is kind of it's a if you have spoiler alert, if you haven't read scary stories in the dark, sorry. ⁓ It basically features a description of a man who runs away because he can feel himself turning into a Wendigo. But the story is told from the perspective of his companion. So his companion sees this guy run away through the snow goes to follow him and sees the footsteps in the snow grow bigger and bigger.
as the man has transformed. But he never actually sees the Wendigo.
Kathryn (35:49)
⁓ yeah.
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. Yeah, I do not remember this. It's interesting that that so my introduction to Wendigos was from a book of stories, but it wasn't scary stories to read in the dark or tell in the dark. It was from the library. was a book of like, they were fiction stories, but it was a book of like Native American folktale stories.
Gina (35:54)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Kathryn (36:18)
I don't know the name. I'm never gonna be it was one of those like small publisher, like kind of no name press type thing. So I'm never gonna be able to find it. but now I'm like, that's weird. I wonder if subconsciously I had seen it in scary stories to tell in the dark. And like, that was actually my intro. But I just don't remember
Gina (36:26)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (36:40)
I definitely read scary stories to tell in the Dark earlier than that. So I'm sure that somewhere in my psyche, I'm wondering if that's why I clocked that story specifically. You know what I mean? Like,
Gina (36:48)
Maybe, yeah. mean, like,
and it shows up all over the place. Like, ⁓ Stephen King has a Wendigo in Pet Sematary, which is another really big one. This was one I don't think you would have seen it, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. ⁓ Wendigos show up in Marvel comics, and actually there's a Wendigo that fights the Incredible Hulk.
Kathryn (36:57)
Yeah.
What? Oh, I did not know that. No. Huh.
Gina (37:13)
Yeah, yeah, but it's not like
it's a Hollywood Wendigo. So it really just kind of looks like a white furry gorilla thing that they slapped the name Wendigo onto. yeah, but they do shit like that in Marvel all the time. Like they have witches and like cryptid inspired shit and like random. They'll they'll just pull from all different sorts of places and just turn it into whatever they want to.
Kathryn (37:18)
Yeah.
Oh, okay. It's like the name.
Yeah, they're using the name, but not the actual lore. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gina (37:37)
They're using the name, yeah.
Yeah, they've also shown up in Supernatural, which I think every, any girl who was a teenager in the early 2000s is probably familiar with Supernatural. Oh, I definitely did, did you?
Kathryn (37:51)
I was gonna say, did you watch that?
I'm astonished to tell you I never did, but I think it was because it was like, it came out like a year after I would have been like in the target audience. I think I was like just not too old, but like I was, had moved on to other things. I was kind of like past the teen drama romance thing by like a year or two. You know what I mean? Like.
Gina (37:58)
Huh.
⁓ okay, yeah, yeah.
Okay, yeah, I get that.
Kathryn (38:18)
I'm familiar. I should watch it. I should go back and watch it. Like, I'm sure I would enjoy it. I probably would have enjoyed it if had I watched it. I also think I just didn't have like cable or streaming at the time. Because like, that would have been probably when I was in Chicago and I was not able to afford those things.
Gina (38:21)
my god, that would be fun.
It's one of those shows
that I genuinely can't remember if it's good or not.
Kathryn (38:43)
I'm sure it's not. It's a CW show, isn't it? Not that there's anything wrong with CW. I just feel like they're known for like churning out just cheesy teen things, you know? Yeah.
Gina (38:45)
Yeah, I don't fucking know.
Like really cheesy.
Yeah,
yeah. But I think maybe someday we can do like a far apart but close together, watch it around the same time. Because I want to know if you're a Sam girl or a Dean girl.
Kathryn (39:01)
We should... We should do a watch.
So this, was gonna say literally the only thing I know about is Sam and Dean, but I don't know what that means. I don't know who is who or any of that. I just know it's Sam versus Dean.
Gina (39:11)
huh, yeah.
It's just, do you remember
like ⁓ Team Edward, Team Jacob from Twilight days? It's like same thing. Okay. Yeah.
Kathryn (39:23)
yeah, no, yeah, I get the concept. I feel like every single team show, I just mean like, I don't know who is who,
I don't know whose team I would be on, I don't know what it means when someone's the Dean girl or Sam girl, you know, like, yeah. We should do a group watch sometime and I'll decide if I'm team Sam or team Dean.
Gina (39:37)
I can't guess which one you... Okay, yeah, well... Yes.
Sweet, okay.
And in 2021, Guillermo del Toro's film Antlers the film's like main bad guy is based pretty obviously on a Wendigo. But in almost all of these adaptations, we miss the deeper
cultural context of the Wendigo. Like the whole reason the Wendigo exists is to warn people of what human beings can become if we are pushed too far. Whereas like modern pop culture is just like, generic bad guy.
So it makes sense that a lot of Native American and First Nations communities critique modern depictions of the Wendigo for this very reason. It's not just like a random forest ghoul. It's like a symbolic narrative about the balance between humanity and survival kind of thing. Also kind of ironic that Hollywood depicts Wendigos like that because one of the whole things is like greed. And they're being really greedy and trying to rake money in by misappropriating this thing. anyway, interestingly,
Kathryn (40:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That always scares me when it happens.
Gina (40:45)
light my fucking light
i think i need to get a new one because the lifespan of it is just bad i know anyway
Kathryn (40:50)
You do need to, that's way too short. Yeah. And like not
to like be obnoxious, but like you really can tell the difference. Like the video quality just dropped like 10 points. We like can't see you. You still look great. We can't see your beautiful face. Hello.
Gina (40:57)
Ugh.
Sorry, everyone. I'll be back. Follow the sound of my voice. Well, I look great. Let me tell everyone.
Another fun thing, well, not fun, economics isn't fun. Something about Wendigos is that they have even spread into economics. So there's an activist named Winona LaDuke.
who coined the phrase wendigo economics, specifically to critique corporate exploitations of the environment. So in this comparison, it's basically the perspective that like rampant capitalism is cannibalizing the earth.
Kathryn (41:46)
It is. Wait.
Gina (41:47)
When to go economics.
Kathryn (41:50)
How do I get involved with spreading the word on this? Because this is like everything that I never shut up about. I didn't know there was a term for this.
Gina (41:55)
fascinating, right? Yes. And even like, you know, laborers who are underpaid and overworked and things like that, like the people, the wealthy, literally grow bigger in terms of wealth by consuming the lives of people. And so it makes that like the, the line tracks.
Kathryn (42:17)
That's interesting. I've never heard of that. What a... That's like a one-to-one comparison.
Gina (42:23)
It's the only time I've read something about economics and been like, yes!
Kathryn (42:28)
Did you ever read the book Freakonomics? Or listen, listen, because I took an economics class in college because it was either that or math and I've moved on from math forever. And it was like half calculations and charts and like math that they want to pretend is not actual math and us reading this book.
Gina (42:30)
No. ⁓
you
Mm.
Kathryn (42:50)
It was like the two sides of your brain combating. Like this teacher was great because like those who like resonate more with charts and graphs learned. Those that resonated more with like anecdotes and real life situations learned. It was really a great strategy for teaching this class. I don't remember the teacher's name, but good job, whoever you are, wherever you are now. It was a good book. It was, I mean, I will say you should read it if you...
Gina (42:53)
you
Okay.
Kathryn (43:17)
hate economics but care about like understanding from the perspective of like, the world sucks and we should probably know what's happening. I recommend it and I fucking hate everything so. Because they had real world things it was like a, it was like the equivalent of a word problem versus like a math problem. What are those called algebraic equations?
Gina (43:25)
Okay.
It's one of them.
okay.
What are those fucking things?
Kathryn (43:44)
Are those fucking things called?
It's also a podcast, I will say if if you don't want to I mean, I know you're a reader, but like for those out there who are not interested, I do think it's it's a podcast. I've never listened to the podcast, though. Yeah. Yeah. I know.
Gina (43:49)
⁓
Okay, amazing. This is a whole new world for me. I'm fucking into economics now. It's a new gena.
Kathryn (44:03)
I used to tell people that I was interested in economics because I read this book.
Gina (44:07)
Ehehehehe
back to Wendigos. So to answer the question, what is a Wendigo? Like I said, we need way longer than just one hour on our little podcast, but hopefully this can act as kind of like an intro to Wendigos for people who are like me and didn't really know that much about them.
Kathryn (44:18)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (44:27)
That said, if you do have a different version of the Wendigo story, please let us know. ⁓ Like I said, there is just so much out there that we don't have time today to dig into, but send us your traditions, send us your stories, because I would love to learn more. ⁓ iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com and I will gladly feature them on the podcast, because this is fucking fascinating. Anyway, that's my story. That's the end.
Kathryn (44:52)
Yay, thank you for sharing.
That was, yeah, one of those are fascinating and similar to what you said, I feel like. It's one that I always thought I knew so much about, but every time I read about it, you kind of learn something new as time goes on, every time you dive in. So yeah, I think it's a fascinating story. I wanna learn more about that Wendigo economics because fuck.
Gina (45:08)
Mm-hmm.
Me too. But anyway, now that I'm done trying to creep you out with a cannibal, do you?
Kathryn (45:24)
with cannibal spirits.
Gina (45:27)
Do you have a scary on top for me?
Listener story
Kathryn (45:31)
I do. I have another listener story from one of our very, good podcast friends. This is not from Tea Tales and Talks. ⁓ We will have more from them at some point, but this one is from Allie from Macabre Mondays, which I love. They're great. If you haven't listened to them, go over and check them out. We will link them.
Gina (45:32)
Hell yeah.
Kathryn (45:55)
So she sends us a story and here we go. All right. I'm struggling starting with starting this. All right. Three, two, go.
Gina (46:01)
was good.
Kathryn (46:05)
I've had really strange and unexplained moments in my life that have stuck with me, but nothing quite like this. I was sleeping over at my ex's house one night and at the time he had a chameleon. For the sake of the story, I'll call him Pedro, the ex, not the chameleon. I know, I thought Pedro was the chameleon too when I first read it. Is that such a cute name for chameleon?
Gina (46:20)
⁓
Cute.
Okay. Pedro 2.
Kathryn (46:32)
Anyway, the ex is Pedro. I don't know if she says the chameleon's name.
Pedro Jr. I don't know if we like Pedro though, like the ex. We'll call him Cami, Cami the chameleon. That's dumb. no, it's cute, okay. Okay, okay, sorry, sorry, All right, back to the story.
Gina (46:40)
Okay, okay, yeah.
on cue.
Kathryn (46:57)
One thing you should know about chameleons is that they need lamps for different nutrients, yada yada yada. So that was her, not me, just so you know. That was a blah blah blah. Allie just keeps yapping on about those chameleons.
Gina (47:05)
I was like, wow.
Kathryn (47:14)
So at night that meant he needed red UV light. Now yes picture that a dark room with only a red light on illuminating the room. You can imagine it looks as spooky as I am saying it is. Anyway the night is going normal and we head to bed. I randomly wake up in the middle of the night and open my eyes like great just another night of waking up randomly.
So from my point of view, I'm laying on the bed on the left and Pedro is on the right closest to the door. The bedroom was big and the door going into the room was at the corner across from
my side of the room closer to Pedro. So she's looking like diagonally toward the door. I'm thinking about just going back to sleep until out of nowhere, I see Pedro walk into the room saying, great, you're up. And I started thinking, Wait a minute. If that's Pedro, who the fuck am I sleeping next to right now? ⁓
Gina (48:21)
What the fuck? We were just talking about this!
Okay.
Kathryn (48:25)
Yep,
we were. So now mind you, this is all happening very quickly. Pedro is walking into the room dressed practically in the same sleep clothes that Pedro, who I am sleeping next to, is wearing to go to bed. So they're wearing basically the same clothes. Pedro starts walking toward me saying how he's glad I was awake and the craziest part was that there was this insane strong
energy to him.
It felt really, really bad, but it also felt so good. It's hard for me to describe it. The minute he laid down in bed with me, that's when the energy felt even stronger, so much so that I could feel it in my ears. That's when I started getting freaked out, like what the fuck is going on? And in that moment, when I felt like I had to get up, I heard the most demonic voice whispering something in my left ear. It said, aw, don't tell me you're scared.
Gina (49:26)
Ooooo
Kathryn (49:28)
Yeah. Yeah. At that moment, I tried so hard to move and say something and I couldn't. I was trying to call real Pedro for help, but even with all my might, all that was coming out of me was heavy breathing and the slight like fingertip movement, like her like fingers were twitching or whatever. But I just kept telling myself to keep trying. And then I woke up in that same room, in that same position, in the same spot.
Like nothing that I had just witnessed had even happened. I was awake. I woke Pedro up frantic because I don't know what the fuck just happened. And that was when I learned about sleep paralysis.
Gina (50:10)
I was, yep, I was thinking this sounds a lot like your sleep paralysis thing that you did. Yep.
Kathryn (50:12)
Yep.
Yep. I went on a deep dive that night because in no way in hell I was going to be able to sleep after that lol. And I found so many other forums of people who have had sleep paralysis and also learned that it's a thing that demons or lost souls can try to take over your body. So in reality, sort of what the movie Insidious is about. I don't remember Insidious at all. I know I should, but I don't.
Gina (50:40)
Great film.
Kathryn (50:42)
Yes, yes. Horror scholar Gina. Is that the one that you said, like
one of the few that you said? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I thought so. couldn't remember. One might say your favorite horror movie.
Gina (50:56)
Yes indeed, yes.
Kathryn (51:02)
Needless to say, after that night, I was terrified to go to sleep late. I remember I asked Pedro the next few days not to go to sleep until I went to sleep first to see if he saw me in any distress so he could wake me up immediately.
Two days later, I actually was starting to feel that same feeling again, the one that I felt that night before bed, which was the way I was drifting into sleep. It's weird because I can tell if something is going to happen based on how I fall asleep. My body feels like it's being taken by a deep sleep current and it's different and I can differentiate it from a normal night's sleep.
I find it hard to fight myself to move and open my eyes, even though I haven't fully fallen asleep yet. In those moments, I have to fight so hard to not give in to the feeling because it doesn't really feel good. Exactly what you would think it feels like when someone says that they drifted into a deep sleep. Anyway, two days later, I noticed I was doing that and before I knew it, I was in all of it again. I opened my eyes and the lights were still on and I immediately said, nope.
and I closed my eyes and tried to move. Thankfully, I woke up before anything happened. For a while after that, I cleansed myself often and also, I'm gonna say like, she means spiritually, not bathe, just for those who don't do that as like a natural practice. I'm sure she was bathing regular before and after this. Anyway, cleansed myself often and also would go to sleep with a sleeping mask on, that's smart.
Gina (52:26)
Yeah.
you
Mm-hmm. That's really smart.
Kathryn (52:42)
I
figured as long as I couldn't see it, it would at least take the fear away even if I did hear something. At least I couldn't see it and I could immediately realize and try to wake up. Since then, I have not experienced sleep paralysis quite like that and I hope it doesn't happen again because it has stuck with me ever since. Well, needless to say, that's fucking terrifying.
Gina (53:10)
That's fucked up.
Kathryn (53:10)
That's like real aggressively,
that's like personal. He was like all up in her space and that's like a mimic. Because he was like replicating Pedro.
Gina (53:17)
Yeah.
And the fact that like actual Pedro was right there too, and she couldn't get that I have nightmares about that all the time where you're trying to get help and you can't move. Fucking terrifying.
Kathryn (53:23)
right next to her.
Yeah, I used to I don't
so much anymore. But like, Or like when you try to call out and you can't make a sound or anything in that genre of dream is just so it's frustrating.
Gina (53:41)
I kept hoping that you would say that like Cammie the chameleon jumps out of the tank and like bites this doppelganger guy demon thing. Even though I don't think that would hurt. Maybe.
Kathryn (53:47)
Right? I know. Yeah, Cami was just there to explain the lights. Maybe. I don't know.
I don't know about chameleons like jaw power, strength. Who knows?
Gina (53:58)
I don't think it's very strong
if I had to guess, but I don't know. If anyone knows, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com All right, yeah, just like a little, like a kiss more than anything.
Kathryn (54:01)
Are they the ones? How badly does a chameleon bite hurt? I don't think at all. I think those are the ones that are just like.
They're
the ones with the slingshot tongues, right? That are like...
Gina (54:17)
That's my understanding. That's my scientific understanding of how they evolved.
Kathryn (54:18)
Yeah, I think so.
It reminds me of, like the cartoon version of a chameleon has, looks like a, what's that like roll up gum? It like unrolls and rolls back in. Do you know what I'm talking about? Bubble, maybe, I don't remember. Probably. Bubble tape, yeah.
Gina (54:31)
my god, what was it bubble bubble tape or something? was it called? I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Well thank you. Thank you for the scary on top. That's gonna haunt me.
Kathryn (54:40)
Anyway, yes. Thank you
for the story. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you, Allie, for the story. And thank you, Macabre Mondays for being a great podcast. Check them out. We love them. And don't forget to leave us a star rating and send us your stories if you have them. We love reading them. And you all love hearing them. You all love when we read you other people's stories. So make sure you're sending us some so we can continue doing that. iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com and yeah until next time keep it cool.
Gina (55:14)
Keep it creepy!
