Ep. 48: Ed and Lorraine Warren
Gina (00:10)
What's up everybody? Hello. Hi there, you listening with your ears. This is I scream, you scream. I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:13)
and I'm Kathryn
Gina (00:18)
And this month we're telling stories where something isn't quite what it seems while we enjoy ice cream with some magic shell on top. As just a little aside, we are just over one week away from our very first birthday. I checked the calendar. It's like, yeah, like one week and a day after this comes out, it'll be our first pod birthday. I know. But I don't know if we've like said this before, but our birthday is on the 1st of October.
Kathryn (00:34)
wild.
Yeah.
So weird.
Gina (00:47)
For anyone who doesn't know. But yeah, 1st of October. And the only thing on our birthday list this year is for you to take those sexy little thumbs of yours and give us a five star rating. Please. I thought I could find a way to make that graceful and I couldn't.
Kathryn (00:47)
yeah, we keep like counting down to it like, it's almost our birthday! Everyone's like, when? For the love of God, when?
Gina (01:10)
than that, I'm real jazzed about the story that we have coming up today. So grab a spoon and let's dig in. Yay.
Kathryn (01:17)
Yay! I'm real
jazz to and rate this ice cream. I loved this ice cream.
Gina (01:23)
Yeah, what do you have a rating? Do you want to go first?
Kathryn (01:27)
Five out of five.
Gina (01:28)
Mmm, yay.
Kathryn (01:30)
Like six out of five, so good. I didn't change it. Remember, I think first episode of this month, I alluded to the fact that I might change the flavor because really the only actual rule was we're doing the magic shell. This stuff is so good, I love it so much. So I did the strawberry and cream, the Ben & Jerry strawberry and cream magic shell and then Halloween sprinkles. So good,
Gina (01:33)
my god, okay.
Yeah.
I actually did change my flavor. I did. Yeah, so I got some coconut ice cream because the magic shell I have is kind of a dark chocolate. And I was like, Ooh, I wonder if it'll be like a Mounds bar. Cause I like a Mounds bar and it is, it's very good. ⁓
Kathryn (01:59)
did you? Okay, I was wondering if you were going to. What did you change it to?
Okay. Nice.
Gina (02:13)
The deeper reason why I did that is because last time we recorded, I accidentally left the ice cream on the counter and it melted and I refroze it, but now it has those like weird little ice crystals in it, so it's not very good anymore. So I got coconut. It's fine. Yeah. I think the salted caramel one, before it's untimely death, I would have given a four out of five, because it was so good and it had chunks of like little crunchy caramel in there, which was nice.
Kathryn (02:19)
⁓ no.
Yeah, it's never the same. That sounds good.
You
Okay, yeah.
Gina (02:42)
The coconut one is fine. I think that gets like a 2.5 out
Kathryn (02:48)
believe that because I always think that coconut ice cream or like a coconut dessert is going to be better than I actually feel like it is. I got ice cream sandwiches. Phil wanted an ice cream bar. I was craving one of those just like old school classic summer vacation ice cream sandwiches. But then I was at the store and I saw
Gina (02:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (03:14)
Dairy free. I was like, my God, great. I'll get that. Thinking it was like just lactose free dairy or like whatever. Didn't really register that it said dairy free, not lactose free. So it was coconut ice cream sandwiches and they were good. They were fine. But I bit into it and I was like, that's not what I wanted. Like it was fine, but it was like I was craving that flavor of.
Gina (03:27)
Mmm.
That's not the same, that's not the same.
Kathryn (03:41)
an ice cream sandwich, you know what I mean? And it just, that wasn't it. So I feel you, I feel your two rating. I recently had a coconut two rating myself is what I'm trying to say. Yes.
Gina (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
We are sisters in the two
ratings of the nut. Yes. That happened to me one time. was really craving mac and cheese, but not like Kraft mac and cheese. You know, like the kind you can get at Panera where it feels a little bit more, you know what I mean? So I went, I didn't want to like spend money on like going to Panera because I'm not a billionaire. And so I went to the store and was looking for something close and I bought what I thought looked like a pretty fair, like one-to-one.
Kathryn (04:02)
Hmm.
yes, yes, yes.
Gina (04:22)
get home, it's vegan mac and cheese and it was made with carrots and it was not good. Yeah, it sucked ass. I was so sad. That's when I was in Milwaukee, actually.
Kathryn (04:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
What?
Carrots??
Gina (04:34)
for what it was, it was probably good. It just was not what I wanted and it wasn't what I was craving. And so I remember being really mad about that, but I got over it by fleeing the country. So it's all good.
Kathryn (04:37)
Yes. Yep.
Yeah.
Because even like Kraft Mac and Cheese tastes like Kraft Mac and Cheese and Panera Mac and Cheese tastes like Panera. You know what I mean? Like they're all very different flavors. Homemade baked mac and cheeses then taste very different than all the other ones. Like it's just you have to be specific when you're talking about mac and cheese. You know what Phil did? sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Gina (04:52)
Yeah.
god, yeah.
You know what? No, you
go. You go. Tell me your mac and cheese story.
Kathryn (05:07)
Okay,
so Phil has been sick. So we've been having also it's soup season. It's like 65 and breezy today. It's like fall on fall right now. And so we've been having a lot of just like easy soup. And one of the things he really loves broccoli cheddar. So I always get the Panera broccoli cheddar. ⁓ He just likes like whatever cheapest broccoli cheddar you can find. I'm like, no, you're sick. You have to have the good stuff. Like do this for me, you know, like have the good stuff.
Gina (05:14)
Nice.
Mmm.
Kathryn (05:37)
But he also, he was at the point in his illness recovery where he was like still not 100%, but like ready for more food. So he was really craving mac and cheese, but he still had a little bit of the broccoli cheddar left. So he mixed them. He like made the mac and cheese and like made a noodle broccoli cheddar soup. Isn't that so smart? I was watching him do it. I was like, wait.
Gina (06:02)
That is so smart!
Kathryn (06:08)
such a good idea. Because I was thinking like you have a side of soup and a bowl of mac and cheese, but he was like, no, why waste a dish? Like, okay. Yeah, I thought that was so clever.
Gina (06:09)
That's such a fucking, cause...
Yeah.
Phil's food innovations
are just amazing.
Kathryn (06:24)
everything goes in one bowl or plate. Usually a bowl because there's often mixing. Like I'll have my like stew with like a small dish of rice if I want to put some in and then a plate with like my bread and crackers. He's got rice, stew, bread, crackers. Like there's no time for multiple dishes.
Gina (06:41)
It just mixes it all up.
Kathryn (06:45)
I am very much a let's piece it together, like every bite is different, let's test out what we want, he's just like mix that shit up.
Gina (06:54)
That's how I am with salads. I can't have a salad without giving it a good mix first. Tom will just eat salads top down and I can't, it never even occurred to me you could do that until I met him.
Kathryn (06:58)
Okay, that's so yeah.
I do both to an extent. start Tom's way. Like I'll do like, okay, maybe I a little crouton, some cheese and like a tomato. Now I want a cucumber, a leaf and cheese. Like I like sample and then as I go, I'm like slowly mixing it together.
Gina (07:11)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm
That's smart.
Kathryn (07:27)
Anyway. ⁓
Gina (07:30)
was trying
so hard to think of something else to say and I was like, got nothing.
Kathryn (07:34)
Like,
just, when I'm right, I'm right, you know? I've never been wrong about salad dressing distribution.
Gina (07:41)
Listen, you're an expert and a scholar in many ways, and this is one of them. I will not pretend to keep up with you in this.
Kathryn (07:46)
my god.
All
right, shall we move on? Do you want a story?
Gina (07:54)
I want this story so bad. I've been thinking about this since you told me you were gonna do it.
Origins of Ed & Lorraine Warren
Kathryn (07:56)
So Edward Warren, aka Ed, as he was better known as, was born in Bridgeport, Connecticut on September 7th, 1926. He was just a normal kid, normal New England upbringing, went to school, went to church, and was just super interested in art.
The only thing that one might consider strange about his upbringing is that Ed claimed to have grown up in a haunted house. The experience influenced a lot of his artwork. He did a lot of like spooky landscapes featuring haunted houses. Just anything dark and spooky, like we'll pop in a picture.
in the YouTube video, but you've seen it. It's like, you know, there's a haunted house on a hill and a cemetery in the front and like a, you know, bats in the background, just classic haunted house kind of looking artwork. Then when he was 16, Ed worked as an usher in a movie theater where he met and fell in love with one of the regular patrons and fellow 16 year old Lorraine Moran.
Lorraine was also from Bridgeport and she was born just a few months after Ed was in January 31st, the following year. And she says that she knew from the age of like six or seven that she had a gift that other people did not. She said that she could see different colors around people when she interacted with them, aka she could read auras. So she
Gina (09:36)
Hmm.
Kathryn (09:39)
would later go on to say that when they met she knew psychically that she and Ed were meant to be together,
they fell in love very quickly, ⁓ likely bonding over the fact that neither one of them had a quote normal upbringing. Both of them had kind of haunting paranormal experiences from a young age. And despite the fact that they did kind of bond over the paranormal stuff or the strange or the weird, everything else was a pretty normal courtship for the 1940s.
Ed would go on to fight in World War II. And when the war ended in 1945, they got married. That same year, Ed enrolled in art school. And then the following year in 1946, they had a baby named Judy. So it was just like, bing, bang, boom. Like, that's kind of how it went in those days. Guy comes back from war and it's like, all right, let's do this. Let's go. Exactly.
Gina (10:38)
American dream.
Kathryn (10:41)
one of the things that most heavily influenced both of their experiences just in the world in general is how profoundly Catholic they both were. Growing up, they both attended daily Mass because they went to Catholic school. And when you go to Catholic school, you go to Mass every day. But Ed's parents also attended Mass daily. And that's a little more unusual.
it's normal to go like to church on Sunday. It's a little bit more extreme to go every single day when you're not forced to any longer from being in school. So yeah, just to paint the picture of how devout they were, his parents would go every single day and his father, Ed's father, encouraged him to basically study up on
Gina (11:16)
⁓ god.
Kathryn (11:32)
how to use the power of God to protect himself whenever he got scared of anything. I mentioned that because remember, Ed grew up in what he claimed to be a haunted house. And he was often very afraid as a little boy. Little boy? He was a little boy. ⁓ But he did. He would see ghosts. I think one of the ghosts he said he saw was that of his aunt or great aunt.
Gina (11:47)
As a little boy. ⁓
You
Kathryn (11:58)
So these people would appear to him at night and it often really startled him. So his dad encouraged him to study the Bible, study what he could. as passionate of a Catholic as he was, he ended up entering the realm of studying demonology. And he learned it very thoroughly, studied it very deeply so that he could basically protect himself against any negative spirits that might come forth.
within this house. He did this throughout all of his childhood and he continued studying into adulthood until he became basically a self-proclaimed demonologist. So they're living this perfectly quaint Catholic New England life, he, Lorraine, and their daughter Judy, and at the time Ed was working as an artist and studying up on demons basically on the side.
they would travel around Massachusetts and other New England states like Vermont, Rhode Island. And they would set up these pop-up stands throughout tourist areas and sell Ed's painting. So kind of like feels like kind of vibey. I'm not gonna lie. I do kind of enjoy. Yeah, it kind of feels kind of bohemian. Like they're just kind of traveling artists a little bit. I kind of enjoy that vibe.
One of the ways that Ed would decide on which location they wanted to set up the, you know, pop-up table or whatever is he would keep his eyes and ears open for any reports of haunted houses and if they heard any such report he and Lorraine would travel to that house and Ed would stand out on the street and sketch the house and
after drawing the house, he would go to the door, explain to the people who lived there that he was an artist and he just loved their home so much and it was so beautiful. He couldn't help himself. He just needed to draw it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this would essentially get him an invitation into the home from their... Yes. Yeah, from...
Gina (14:07)
my god. People were so trust-
I would call the police.
Kathryn (14:12)
I mean, this was like, you wouldn't in like the 60s, you wouldn't, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it was a different time. It really was. Because this would have been probably earlier than that. This was like...
Gina (14:15)
Yeah. It's just so different now.
Kathryn (14:26)
probably 50. Yeah, this would have been early 50s. He was doing this or he started doing this. like, you let people into your home for like tea and biscuits around this time, you know what I mean? they would they would go in when I say he Lorraine was there with him, but he was the one leading the charge and this and every other situation. And they would basically start performing an investigation once they were invited into the home like he'd
Gina (14:29)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (14:54)
casually basically just be like, yo, there's vibes in here, is this place haunted? And like, I know about demons, let us help you. So that was kind of their start. That was, you know, how they got the in on all the good investigations. They basically just invited themselves and forced their way in. Yeah, they basically cold called how haunted houses basically, yes. So
Gina (14:58)
hehe
Cold calling. ⁓
Kathryn (15:23)
Like I said, worth noting, this is all happening in the 40s and 50s and Lorraine was along for the ride and she would act as his quote psychic assistant. So she would go to the locations with him, get vibes or see visions. So however the message was sent to her, that was kind of their jumping off point. ⁓ know, well, I won't elaborate any more than that, doesn't matter. Anyway, blah, blah, blah, Okay, sorry. I was just about to do my ramble thing. ⁓
Gina (15:47)
No.
Kathryn (15:52)
trying not to ramble as much. So what I find interesting about these early years is Lorraine herself says that she was a skeptic at this point. Like she considered herself very skeptical don't want say she didn't believe in what they were doing. that's not how it was phrased, but
Gina (16:05)
Hmm.
Kathryn (16:13)
it just felt very much like he was leading the charge and I do believe that she had this gift but didn't I don't think she necessarily felt like there was a crossover into therefore this will help us find demons
but she did, you know, come along on the investigations and she would help out. She didn't ever indicate she was skeptical about her or talent or whatever you want to call it. But there was a disconnect. I'll just leave it at that.
Founding of NESPR
Regardless of whatever doubts she had, they did keep doing it as a regular practice. And in 1952, they officially founded New England's first ever paranormal investigation organization, the New England Society for Psychical Research, more commonly known as NESPR.
which is still around, we will talk about it at length toward the end. They, as an organization, did, and I'm gonna say still do, but this is all framed within, I'm gonna say, Ed and Lorraine's founding principles or whatever. So they as in Ed and Lorraine, but as translated into the beliefs of this organization.
believe that any type of paranormal evidence was basically in opposition to God and taking some liberties here but they it kind of gives the vibe of there's no such thing as like a good spirit or just a residual haunting but all of this is just demonic and dangerous this I'm paraphrasing I'm sure someone will be like oh that's not true it's not 100 % evil blah blah blah
Gina (17:45)
Mmm.
Kathryn (17:55)
But the cases that they took and the things that they focused on, it was very much like demon, demon, demon, negative spirit, demon, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. in this group, was the resident demonologist, obviously, and also the lead investigator. Lorraine's official title was trance medium who would connect with the spirits and help guide the extraction of evil from whatever house or.
Gina (18:01)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (18:20)
person or structure or whatever it was that they were investigating.
And I'm like kind of steamrolling myself a little bit, but there is kind of a disconnect for me right off the bat because one of the things they claimed was that, you know, these weird things and these, you know, extraordinary and paranormal, unusual things were all in opposition to God. But then Lorraine was a trance medium. So I'm kind of like...
Gina (18:53)
Yeah
Kathryn (18:56)
Is that not opposition to God? Like, where's the line between... That's a thing. Like, that's like, do do do. Like, I guess I don't totally understand where that line is. Like, where is the line between gift from God versus like evil demonic witch? Like, I don't know. Vibes, I guess. I don't know.
Gina (19:00)
Well no, because they're doing it.
I mean, if history is anything to judge by,
the line is very wiggly.
Kathryn (19:23)
It's very
wiggly and fine and microscopic and just a wee little hair of a lion. So anyway, so just to kind of continue painting a picture of this organization, the following is a direct quote from NESPR website.
Gina (19:29)
Yeah.
You
Kathryn (19:41)
Quote, the forces they confronted are religious entities that by their own admission exist for the sheer purpose of opposing the works of God. Diabolical forces are formidable. These forces are eternal and they exist today. In a world that scoffs at ghosts and laughs at the unusual, the Warrens deliver a contrary message. That message is this, the fairy tale is true, the devil exists, God exists, and for us as people,
our very destiny hinges upon which one we elect to follow.
Gina (20:14)
Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. Bars, baby girl. That was so good. Sorry.
Kathryn (20:15)
Chef's kiss.
They don't say which one you should follow. I just have to point that out. Just that you have to pick a side. Yes, I'll-
Gina (20:28)
Just pick a side. Pick a fucking side. I think that's kind of lame. I think
we should be able to take the middle road.
Kathryn (20:35)
Listen, I love a good fairy tale. I love that it started with fairy tales are true. Like, what? Fairy tales are true and so is God. Yeah.
Gina (20:41)
don't think, I don't think the death, yeah, that feels a little like Christian summer camp.
Kathryn (20:51)
It does. I don't know, I've never been one of those. Did you ever go to a Christian summer camp? Did you really? my god, I never did. Really?
Gina (20:51)
You know what I mean? If you think about it, God is... my God, yeah. I went to so many... Yeah, I went to so many of those things. I almost became an actual Christian at one of those things. They trick you. They're sneaky. By the end of the week, you're like, you know what? Maybe... Maybe.
Kathryn (21:07)
Listen.
Yeah, I'll. We're doing a slow burn diving into my religious trauma. We'll get there eventually. But mine did not involve summer camp. Mine was just good old fashioned Sundays.
So yeah, just as an intro to this organization, ⁓ NESPR is very well known for taking on a lot of very ⁓ significant and very well known cases.
Famous Warren Cases
Amityville
Of the cases we covered, that is the most infamous, which we covered in episode 25, and that is the Amityville Horror House. So I won't go into detail about that one for obvious reasons. And the reason is we already did. So go check out episode 25. There's also the case of William Ramsay, who lived in a seaside town in England and he believed himself to be a werewolf, which I actually almost did this for werewolf month, but
Gina (21:52)
Yeah.
Kathryn (22:03)
I decided not to. I'll be honest, no shade at all, but the more research I did... I was familiar with the story. I had heard it before, but the more I researched it and dug in, I was like, this kind of just sounds like he had a hormone thing going on. Like, if I'm being honest, I don't. So I didn't want to do it, but it is an interesting story and they were involved in that one. Maybe we'll do it someday. I don't know.
Gina (22:04)
I don't know this one.
⁓ okay, yeah.
The Conjuring
Kathryn (22:31)
⁓ Another really big one is the Smurl family from Pennsylvania whose story was just immortalized in the latest installment of the Conjuring franchise that came out earlier this year, which we will talk about quite a bit. But just as a quick overview, ⁓ the family experience mimics
you know, ghosts and all the creepy things that come with haunted houses. It allegedly escalated to more demonic and kind of poltergeist-y activity. I'm not going to into too much detail because this is one that we might cover one But it's worth noting that at the time the Warrens covered this case, they were very well known publicly. I think this one would have been in the like the late
Gina (22:50)
you
Kathryn (23:15)
so just to paint a picture, you know, they started this in 1952 by the time the Smurl investigation happened. I don't remember the exact year. I'm sorry. I should have looked it up. It was like the late seventies. So, you know, they had a very long career by the time they started of working their way into Hollywood. And that was as a result of the ⁓ Amityville case, which when did that movie come out? Like around the same time as the Smurl family. I think it was around like 79 or something. ⁓
Gina (23:42)
think it was 79
if I'm not wrong. I might be wrong. Yeah.
Kathryn (23:45)
It was, I think it was the late seventies. Yeah. Cause I always think it's eighties, but it's seventies.
so just to paint the picture, like they, they grew significantly over the years and,
the cases that I would say really put them on the map and the ones that turned them into quote-unquote household names, at least from a church perspective and a paranormal perspective, would be Annabelle doll and the Perron family
both inspired the story for the just as a brief overview for those who haven't seen it, I feel like I did see the first conjuring movie. I just saw it very long time ago, and it was in that period of life where I was like, this is so not scary. Who cares? Blah, blah, blah, blah. So I wasn't really paying attention to it.
But anyway, story opens with Ed and Lorraine being called to inspect creepy doll that they determine is a conduit for demons and they decide that the doll needs to be locked up behind glass forever or else she will wreak havoc everywhere. So it's just kind of like
the opening scene, that kind of false opening that horror movies do. It doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the story, which is about the parent family. And they move into this house where they find this creepy cellar and they end up encountering this horribly malevolent spirit and are so scared that they end up calling the Warrens for help.
The Warrens swoop in and do a bunch of research determined that the culprit of these hauntings was the spirit of an evil satanic witch named Bathsheba Sherman, who sacrificed her baby before killing herself in the name of Satan. So that's the film. That's how the story goes in the movie. If you compare the plot of the movie with the case files provided by NESPRs website, and just their archive of case studies. Tons of overlap. It's basically a one-to-one for all intents and purposes. This movie franchise is 100 % accurate according to their research. So much so that Lorraine consulted on this movie franchise. She was there working with them on the script. Problem is, there's insurmountable evidence that contradicts pretty much every case the Warrens have ever claimed.
too solved So. Let's talk about the holes in their stories. ⁓
Gina (26:08)
Mm-hmm.
I was wondering what you were getting, because at first I was like, ooh, is this a defending the Warrens episode? no, I've come into this with the wrong mindset.
Debunking the Warrens
Kathryn (26:22)
Whoops. So author and historian Jamie Rubio did some digging and found that there really was a woman named Bathsheba Sherman. And beyond that, basically everything that is depicted about her is
completely false. There's zero historical evidence of her ever being accused of In fact, everything that could be found on her suggested that she lived a pretty normal life. She was born in 1812 and attended church on a very regular basis, just like the Warrens did. Raised a family, then died comfortably surrounded by family of old age. No sign of suicide or sacrifice or anything like that.
there was a rumor going around, I think, back in the day that a baby died while in her care. But there was never any, A, there was never any evidence of that actually happening. It was just a rumor that the baby died at all. But beyond that, there was no evidence of it. Like the rumor wasn't that she sacrificed the baby. The rumor was just that the baby died. And even if it did,
as very normal for babies in the early 19th century, sadly. Like it wasn't ever anything that raised any red flags in like the community or anything like that. So woman that was depicted as this like evil, scary entity, both in the movie, but also in their case files was actually just.
Gina (27:43)
Yeah.
Kathryn (28:03)
a woman like minding her own business and like not doing anything to hurt anyone. It does suck. Yeah, doesn't that suck? Because I'm pretty sure...
Gina (28:07)
Man, that fucking sucks.
That does suck.
Kathryn (28:14)
she was depicted really...she was depicted basically as a demon and like really gross and scary. And she was just some chick living life. So that's a bummer. Definitely hate that. But like, as far as the Warrens were concerned, was true. Like that was
psychic vision or whatever that Lorraine got was that of this evil entity that was Bathsheba. So therefore it was true. It's also important to note that no one in the Perron family actually even reached out to the Warrens. Warrens got wind of this haunting because remember this was in the early days. They weren't quite household names yet.
So they heard about the haunting and the Warrens reached out to them. In the movie, it was presented as like, you know, we were helpless, we need you, blah, blah, blah, blah, come help us. And so they come. That's not what happened. In fact, one of the daughters of the Perron family has been pretty vocal in recent years, basically ever since the conjuring franchise got big about the fact that she...
Gina (29:03)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Kathryn (29:27)
never really felt the same kind of negative energy that the Warrens claimed was in her house. She did say that the house was very haunted. She said there were definitely ghosts and, you know, energies and stuff like that there. But a lot of the energies that they felt were very protective. While there was negative energy in the home, there was also positive energy. And the family recalls
basically the haunting being made into a bigger deal than they felt like it was. Like, they really just wanted answers on how to quiet down the house while trying to go to sleep and that kind of thing versus like, let's rid the house of demons. You know what I mean? So I've watched a few interviews with this daughter and you know, she's done some podcasts here and there and some like other
Gina (30:11)
⁓ Yeah. My god.
Kathryn (30:25)
of talk showy type interviews and she said that her whole experience with the Warrens was kind of weird. A lot of leading questions. Lorraine would like feel or see something and then be like, this is what you see, right? And they'd be like, yeah, I guess, but I don't know, not really. I'm also seeing this, this, this, and this, you know, same shit that we've talked about a million times, you know, like just, it was very clear that the Warrens were kind of leading the narrative and
Gina (30:42)
Mmm.
Kathryn (30:55)
making it so that they were getting the answers that they were basically looking for. And that was that there is an evil entity in this house. Within the confines of the film adaptation, I understand like zhuzhing things up a little bit and making them a little more spooky. know, anything that's like based on a real story is like, okay, take that with a grain of salt.
Gina (31:10)
Yeah.
Kathryn (31:18)
My issue is not with the Conjuring franchise. I'm sure they're great movies. I vaguely remember the first one being pretty good. I just don't remember it. I'm so sorry. I am curious about the most recent one that just came out. People are fucking loving it. So I do want to like revisit them and see what they're actually like because talk a lot of mad shit for someone who's not actually seen them. But I do want to clarify my issue is not with the movies. the fact that the information that the films are based on
Gina (31:38)
Hahaha
Kathryn (31:48)
is likely completely fabricated. You know what I mean? So this is a pattern that pops up when people describe their own experiences with the Warrens. A lot of people have a lot of retrospective, wow, they really were tricking me, or they just did all this for attention and nothing was ever real, blah, blah, blah, blah,
Gina (31:52)
Yeah.
Kathryn (32:10)
I don't want to say that they were conclusively just trying to trick people. And the reason I'm pausing myself and pumping the brakes a little bit is I found an interesting case study that... Well, I'll just... I'll walk through it before I share my opinions. Okay, so I found a case study. It was published in 1997, written by two men named Steve...
Gina (32:31)
Okay.
Kathryn (32:38)
Navella and Perry D'Angelis, who were part of the New England Skeptical Society, aka NESS. Yes, thank you. Yes, yeah. They describe, they dis-, the organization describes itself as, quote, an American organization dedicated to promoting science and reason, which like I love, we love science here at I Scream You Scream.
Gina (32:49)
The New England Fuck You Society. I love it.
Only Americans
are allowed in this organization. We do not have international branches.
Kathryn (33:11)
Well, and also like,
absolutely not. No, of course not. Also, like kind of tired of all these like science organizations dedicating all their time to like proving paranormal fake. Like go cure cancer. Like, what are you doing? I don't know. That was just my opinion. Yeah, like leave us alone. With that being said, I will say that ⁓
Gina (33:30)
There are bigger fish to fry.
Kathryn (33:40)
I do believe and agree with a lot of what they found slash concluded in regards to Ed and Lorraine. the value of quote unquote debunking things for me is when you are debunking something that can be dangerous to someone like, someone is charging you a lot of money to get rid of the demons in your home or you know someone is charging you a lot of money to xyz like that is when things are like i don't know if you need science to prove that that's fucked up
Gina (34:08)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (34:13)
A lot of con artists out there in every industry, including the paranormal. I digress. So in Steve and Perry's investigation or research or whatever you want to call it into Ed and Lorraine, they found that pretty much every piece of evidence they had acquired over the years could be debunked with very, very, very little effort. Like it wasn't a matter of
doing a lot of digging into anything, it was like, this is pretty objectively fake. For example, most of the evidence that the Warrens had were videos and photos that they had taken over the years. And when the photos were examined, the NESS team, determined that all of the orbs and apparitions and you know, fuzzy blurs or whatever were achieved by the camera settings. Basically, they would just crank up the exposure and put it at a setting that captured every little particle of dust or created a blur or whatever.
And then the other thing they found is something that we talked about in Amityville. It was just that a lot of these pictures were just very clearly staged. It was either like this is a blurry photo or this is just a photo of some guy. Like, there wasn't a lot of science being used to debunk them. It was just, the only science being used was like vision. Like it was very easy to like figure out that this was all very like basically just fabricated. One of the things
Gina (35:33)
Yeah.
Kathryn (35:54)
that they said that really stuck with me though is based on their experience with the Warrens, they didn't appear to be investigating anything at all. Usually when well-intended people go into a paranormal investigation, they're going in with curiosity and an open mind. They just want to go in blind and see what they find, see what they can uncover, see what they experience, and then share their experience with the world. Like that's typically how it goes. To the NESS team, that's not what the Warrens were doing. They, you know, after interviews and hearing about their process and what they did and how they did it and blah, blah, blah, blah, basically said it was very clear that they had an agenda, they had a message they wanted to send from the start and they led the narrative the entire way.
and made sure that whatever story, whatever information they found helped them reach the conclusion that they wanted to reach. In addition to that, which, and this is the part I think I find the most interesting, is the NESS team also felt like they genuinely believed all of the information they were gathering was actual proof.
It was this weird kind of mix between where it was like they didn't know they were lying to people to get them to say what they wanted them to say. Do you know what I mean? It was like a weird like.
Gina (37:25)
Mmm.
Is that confirmation bias? Is when you go in with a preconceived notion and then you just look for things that make you right? Yeah.
Kathryn (37:32)
Probably, yes. But you genuinely don't realize you're doing it. Yes, like that was kind of the most poignant thing that I found that this NESS team had to say. And it was that didn't seem to be intentionally manipulating or lying. It seemed like they were like, yeah, this is proof. They said it. and it's like, okay, but like that's not, there's all these other things
Gina (37:42)
Okay.
yeah!
Kathryn (38:01)
that are leading them to say that. And I think the Warrens just genuinely didn't see that,
This case study from NESS was published in 1997, but the critics didn't really do much to dissuade people from believing in the Warrens. Like we've mentioned numerous times, they were very talented in understanding how to get people to believe them and monetize... like these people's belief in them. know, whether intentional or not, they were good at that.
So obviously Amityville Horror was a very big hit and that was kind of Hollywood's introduction to the Warrens. But when The Conjuring was released in 2013, their notoriety just skyrocketed. They were untouchable at that point. The film franchise, which is, like I said, still going on, the most recent one was just released, ⁓ it introduced them to people who were nowhere near like the paranormal community or the church community or you know ghost hunters or weirdos or whatever. The ones that they had been household names for previously now it was just any old body was like my god the Warrens and the fact that Lorraine consulted on the film franchise had people really genuinely believing the authenticity of these stories. So their following just continued to grow and grow and grow. Along with the notoriety came kind of a spotlight on their personal lives and people started wanting to get to know them more and like a personal level, like who are Ed and Lorraine versus Ed and Lorraine like demon hunters, you know?
NESPR’s Website
So Judy, their daughter, and only child was featured as a character in some of these movies. so people started showing an interest in her. what is what was life like growing up with these two notorious paranormal people, right? Like, that's an interesting story.
Especially since at this point, Judy's an adult and she, along with her husband, Tony Spera, were and are at the helm of NESPR, which I have to land on for a second. Maybe this is like a known thing. I did not know this and I was real weirded out while I was doing my research. The NESPR website, the URL is tonyspera.com.
Gina (40:34)
⁓ I wonder who bought the domain.
Kathryn (40:34)
their son-in-law who is now like, I'm just like, why is that like a high value keyword? Like, why did we change this URL? Like, it feels weird to me. Truly, I'm, listen, I don't know if they're thinking about this at all and it's stuff. If you're listening, Tony, I do wonder how your search performance is. I don't know. I just thought that was weird. It very much rubbed me the wrong way.
Gina (40:44)
Where's the search strategy in this, guys? We gotta think about the impressions.
Hahaha!
Kathryn (41:05)
why it should just be nespr.com, right? Why is it tonyspera.com? I don't know. I don't get it, but I don't like this guy. I'm sure he's lovely, but I just get bad vibes. It's weird. What if I, like, what if I changed ice cream, you scream pod. to Kathryn.com. That's weird. I don't like it. Just Kathryn.com. ⁓
Gina (41:09)
Mm-hmm.
Hahaha
It is weird.
That would be fucking funny and I think you should, I'll help you do it. Just Kathryn.com. ⁓
I love it. Now that is weird though, especially when it's like, it's an organization, especially one that like, and I'm gonna say this carefully, I don't mean this in a bad way, but an organization that is trying to be taken seriously, that's kind of a lazy.
Kathryn (41:32)
I don't know. I thought that was weird.
Say yes!
Yeah, it has very like, no offense, NESPR, but it has like, I'm slapping this together on mom and dad's computer in the basement vibes.
Gina (41:56)
Can I pull it up real quick, do you mind?
Kathryn (41:58)
Yeah, I mean the website's fine. It's just the URL weirds me out.
Judy’s Claims
Anyway, no shade to Tony Spera. I just have a couple of questions. backing up, back to Judy. ⁓ Judy has gone on record saying some things that kind of echo her mother's initial thoughts on paranormal from the early days, like lot of skepticism. Judy has claimed to be a skeptic. She's kind of done that thing where it's like she's a skeptic, but she's also just scared.
Gina (42:29)
Mmm.
Kathryn (42:29)
which inherently
is like, are you a skeptic? But like, she just doesn't 100 % is very normal. Yes, I feel like most skeptics are that way. It's like you're choosing to not believe because you don't want to, which like, great. What you don't know can't hurt you unless it's demons. Anyway, so... So she basically was like, I am not interested in the paranormal at all. I'm fully afraid of ghosts.
Gina (42:33)
How'd get that?
Hmm.
Kathryn (42:58)
like doesn't want to have anything to do with it. But she is at the helm of Nesbier now. Also makes sense if I was like handed an organization, I would also run it even if it wasn't something I believe in because we live in a capitalist society and that's just the way things go. So because her parents were constantly on the road touring and cold calling these haunted houses and visiting these haunted places and you know, working in Hollywood just like all the things she
Gina (43:08)
Yeah.
Word.
Kathryn (43:28)
Judy lived with her grandparents for the majority of her childhood. So she wasn't really involved in her parents' day-to-day lives, aka the paranormal. I think that her upbringing was pretty normal. I don't think that she was really involved with that side of things much at all. And if so, it felt very like here and there whenever they were in town. They were kind of just not really around. They were always on the go.
Judith Penny
And that's why in 2014, when a woman named Judith Penny...
came forward to claim that she and Ed had a 40 year long sexual relationship while he was married to Lorraine, people initially did not believe this penny woman. And I mentioned Judy's
lack of proximity to like the Warrens kind of day to day every life or day to day everyday lives. ⁓ Judy likes where it's high and low that these allegations from I'm to call her Penny because Judith and Judy is going to throw me off. So Judy, the daughter, claims that these allegations by Penny are completely false. ⁓ So that's one reason people were
Gina (44:17)
Mm.
Kathryn (44:45)
like not believing Penny to begin with, which like kind of immediately debunked for me because Judith, I'm sorry, Judy was literally not there. So like she just simply wouldn't know. And she was a another reason people didn't believe her is just no one fucking believes women. And finally, their image was
Gina (44:55)
Yeah.
Kathryn (45:06)
that of like God-fearing Catholics who fought evil and Ed would just simply never do something like this. So like, all really strong arguments. I laugh so I don't cry. So clearly this penny woman is lying, right? So let's take a look at some parts of her official statement.
Gina (45:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm swayed personally.
Kathryn (45:35)
She made the statement in November 2014, which some places say 2017, but there are articles published about it before 2017. So I'm going with the 2014. I don't know what happened in 2017, but I'm going with 2014. She states that Ed was working as a city bus driver at the time. This was the early 60s and she was a high school student who took his bus route to school.
That's when they met. Ed falls madly in love with her, tells her parents, hold on to your butt, Gina, he tells her parents that he has fallen deeply in love with her and gets permission to move her into their home. So in 1963, 37-year-old Ed Warren moved Penny, who was a teenager at the time, into
Warren's house to Lorraine's knowledge and proceeded to have a sexual relationship with her until just before his death in 2006.
when they were in public with each other, like when they took her out in public, they would say that she was either like a niece that they had taken in or just for some charity case that they were like taking care of because she had like a bad family home or like something like that. don't know.
Gina (47:04)
I hate all of this.
Kathryn (47:06)
Yeah. So she stated that she originally had a room in the house and then as she got older, they moved her into, I think, the basement of the house or something like that. I don't know what exactly it was, but it was basically her... Well, it was like an apartment. Like, it was like she wasn't like a cellar. She like had an apartment. Yeah. No.
Gina (47:23)
I mean, still. Yeah, that's what I was like. What, had a basement
girl that they kept? I mean, technically, yeah.
Kathryn (47:31)
I mean, yeah, but in an
apartment, you're like, yeah, this is not better. But like, yeah, it's not, it wasn't like a cellar, but like she had a space of her own. And she claimed that basically Ed would just take turns. Like one night he'd sleep upstairs with Lorraine, one night he'd sleep downstairs with Penny, Judith Penny. Yeah. Yeah. Well, keep holding on to that booty of yours because speaking of God,
Gina (47:35)
It's not better, but.
Okay.
You know what? Praise the Lord.
Okay.
Kathryn (48:00)
and Catholicism and what you are and are not supposed to do. So they insisted that she be on birth control because obviously can't be having a scandal to that extent, especially as their notoriety grew and their popularity got more prevalent and they were more in the public eye. would just be the worst scandal for them. And as birth control sometimes does,
Gina (48:11)
Hmm.
Kathryn (48:28)
When Penny was in her 30s, I think it was like the late 70s at this time, she did get pregnant. And because this obviously would have been the ultimate scandal, Penny claims that Lorraine specifically essentially coerced her into getting an abortion. Yeah, these two Catholic demon hunters forced her to be on birth control and then made her get an abortion when she got pregnant.
Gina (48:55)
There's something about, I mean, I'm not letting Ed off the hook. There's something about a woman traitor
Kathryn (49:01)
Oh yeah, no, they're both evil. And I will say, I will say,
Gina (49:03)
They're both evil.
Kathryn (49:05)
There's part of me, I definitely, I don't want to say feel for Lorraine in a let her off the hook situation.
One of the things that Penny claimed was that there was a lot of fighting and a lot of physical and verbal abuse from Ed to Lorraine. So there is also a part of me that is she a traitor? Yes. Was it because she horrible person or was it because she was also a victim? I don't know. Either way, still was, still not good.
Gina (49:19)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Kathryn (49:40)
still not defending her but I'm like these are the things that I wonder. Like I wonder what her experience with him in this house slash life together was because going all the way back to the beginning
Gina (49:46)
There are layers to it.
Kathryn (49:56)
Like, did she have a choice to join him on this journey? Like, she was a skeptic. Like, did she want any of this? I don't know.
Gina (50:02)
Doesn't sound like, especially in the beginning. Yeah.
Kathryn (50:07)
like I can't help but wonder, right? Like, I don't know. I just, this guy just fucking sucks. May he rest in peace or whatever the fuck. Anyway, so everything that she was saying was very believable and like there were to my knowledge, if anyone like has any information that has come out since, be more than happy to hear it. But based on what I could find,
There wasn't ever really any holes in the stories. this happened, people did take notice of the fact that Lorraine had very intentionally crafted
the contract between her and the film studio when they first started doing the Conjuring film together to make sure that A, the film did not depict her relationship with Ed in any negative way whatsoever, and they were not allowed to show them fighting and they weren't allowed to like dig into their personal life at all. That was like in the contract, yeah.
Gina (51:07)
That's a little fishy.
Kathryn (51:11)
It is fishy and it's like on the one hand, that's pretty, I don't want to say standard practice because I'm not in Hollywood, but like protect yourself because Hollywood is dirty and like big studios are really ⁓ interested in taking advantage of people's stories. This happens all the time. So I get the concept of like protecting yourself. But on the other hand,
It's like, the fuck are you trying to hide that you have to be so specific about not talking about you at all? You know what I mean? it just... Yeah, people did point out that this was kind of a notably tight contract, But I do too, but...
Gina (51:41)
Yeah.
I think suspicious. I think even if it's just her
being smart, at the very least it's like, okay, well on the one hand you claim that you're these benevolent demon fighting Christians, but on the other hand, you're letting Hollywood take advantage and publish things that probably aren't true about people who were vulnerable and you thought needed you. So either way, you fucking suck.
Kathryn (51:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, I agree. Due to the fact that both Ed and Lorraine have since passed, Ed passed back in 2006 and then Lorraine died in 2019, this is the part of the story where I would typically say something along the lines of like, we will never know, we'll never know the truth. I feel pretty confident in this one that we can like... kind of surmise what actually the truth was, or at least what it wasn't. ⁓ I feel like these two were shady as hell. And no offense to fucking TonySpera.com, but like, I feel like everything as part of this sphere is also kind of like, ⁓ it's just a little bit weird. ⁓ Which is a shame because
Gina (52:33)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (52:59)
Some of, if not all of the most notorious hauntings from the latter half of the 20th century are tied to the Warrens. What's interesting though, we've mentioned it before earlier in the episode, is the discrepancy between the actual haunting that took place and the things that the real people at these houses experienced versus what the Warrens turned them into and then monetized.
That's the disconnect. ⁓ I would still love to do an episode on some of these hauntings. They really interesting. And I would love to see a comparative, like, what was said versus, like, what was originally claimed, you know,
The Conjuring is the most popular one. That one's been talked about quite a bit. You can find so much information about the discrepancies on that. ⁓ But The Warren's Legacy lives on and will continue to live on. I think we've, have you been following the Annabelle doll tour stuff?
Gina (54:03)
I think I did read something about it. Didn't the guy who owned it die and so now it doesn't have a new owner or something? ⁓
Kathryn (54:12)
Yeah, yes.
So basically Annabelle the doll who was supposed to be locked away behind glass forever and never removed was taken on tour for people to see and every town she stopped in something weird happened.
The first instance I remember hearing about, I don't know if it was the original one, but whatever town she was in, that plantation burned down. And then there was another stop where like the 911 dispatch
line went down for like several hours, just like all these weird things that would happen in the towns where Annabelle was. And the biggest one was the man who was He, ended up dying, I believe.
It was a heart attack, So everyone just like lost their minds. It was like, my God, was Annabelle, was Annabelle, blah, blah, blah. But this is kind of a classic case of like, you see what you want to see. Yes, weird things were happening, but weird things happen all the time. Like we had torrential downpours in our area that led to record breaking floods and our basement is full of
Gina (55:04)
Mmm.
Kathryn (55:24)
like absolutely fucked and had Annabelle been in town when that happened, everyone would have blamed Annabelle. You know what I mean? Like, like this doll did not kill anybody. But that was kind of the Warrens' MO. Like, I feel like the Warrens are absolutely delighted in their graves, like with everyone thinking that this doll is to blame for all of this weird stuff because that's like...
Gina (55:30)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (55:50)
what they set out to do. Like they wanted people to believe like their team held the power to like protect us from these demons and see what happens when that doesn't happen. You know what I mean? They they're still they're still fucking with people from beyond the grave. That's all I'm going to say anyway. So in conclusion, the Warrens were fear mongers.
Gina (56:10)
Mm.
Kathryn (56:15)
That was it. Their goal was to make everyone think that anything spiritual or paranormal or strange or unusual was synonymous with demons. they wanted people to pay lots of money for salvation. I do, I will say, I do think it's OK to believe in the work that they appeared to be doing. I don't want anyone to be like, you know.
Well, I hate demons. I want to protect myself from demons. Like, great. Do that. But like, the issue is fake evidence, the charging lots of money and like the attention seeking, you know? It's just like, you can do these things without being shady about it.
I know a lot of people kind of came up in the paranormal world very much looking up to them. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that within the confines of understanding that they were flawed humans with flawed methods. And if you can do better, great, do it. I believe in you. think we all can be better. That's all I'm saying.
That's all I'm saying.
Gina (57:22)
Unless you're Ed and Lorraine and then you're just, you've bottomed out, sorry. Even in the afterlife there is. Stuck where they are.
Kathryn (57:26)
Well, they're dead, so like there's not space for them to get better. True. Yeah, that's true.
Yeah. Anyway, I'm just sitting here thinking of TonySpera.com now.
Gina (57:36)
God damn.
Kathryn (57:40)
Yeah.
Gina (57:40)
I just think it's such a shame, man, because Ed and Lorraine Warren, they're like, like you were saying, like a lot of people came into their knowledge of the paranormal through them or with them as a big part of it. And there's so much like beauty and wonder in the paranormal. And then they, some of the best known paranormal people in history have to just fucking put a stink on it.
Kathryn (57:50)
Mm-mm.
Yeah, it's a bummer.
Anyway, hit me with it. Cool.
Gina (58:07)
Anyway, I have a story for you. I have a mini story for you. Okay, so
one comes from Pod Friends, Tea Tails and Talks. They've sent us a few stories. Yeah, this is like, I think what the second or third in a series? can't remember how many we've read out so far, but I know there's multiple. Third, well, welcome to the third installment of Tea Tails and Talks on I Scream You Scream So this is titled...
Kathryn (58:16)
Yay!
I think third, yeah, yeah.
You
Gina (58:33)
Old man in the basement. Mm-hmm. I know. I feel like it was so perfectly paired with our topic today. Very spooky. Okay. One time I was going to our basement to get something. Let me note, at this time our basement was unfinished. the way the lights in the basement were set up was really just a couple of light bulbs sporadically around.
Kathryn (58:37)
I'm scared. Jesus.
Yeah.
Gina (58:55)
So some corners were very dark. Of course, my dad had his desk and books in the darkest corner of the basement, away from everything else, and it was coincidentally placed very near the stairs, so I had to walk past it to get to the rest of the basement. Now, short backstory, my dad found this very old, solid wood desk at an old house or apartment that he had been working at.
And he brought it home because it was huge and beautiful and dark, solid wood. So like not cheap to buy. My dad also sometimes has a habit of not tucking in his chair when he leaves, and that's important information. So, back to the story. I'm walking into the basement past this huge old desk, and I glance quickly at it because again, it's a dark corner and very shockingly, I saw the back of someone sitting in the desk chair.
Now I knew what I had just seen, a short shadowy figure of a person definitely sitting in the desk chair. I tried not to think about it while I hurried to get whatever I came down there for, but of course now I have to walk back past the desk to get back up the stairs. So I peeked over at the desk and didn't see anything there, no shadow, no figure, so I sprinted back up the stairs.
It's such a relatable feeling, the sprint up the basement stairs.
Kathryn (1:00:23)
I just, I literally just got that chill that goes down your spine when you just know the demons are chasing you up the stairs. I just got it listening. Like, ooh, yes. Where you're like crawling with your hands. Yes. God, I hate that feeling.
Gina (1:00:31)
You gotta go go go go. my god. Yes, as fast as you can. ⁓
Same. I told my parents about this later, basically lecturing my dad to push in his chair because I saw a spirit sitting in it. Come to find out, as my dad so eloquently revealed, he had actually received that desk from an old man who had passed away. And he believed that old man was probably still attached to it. And then she says, great, good to know. I didn't see the man after or since, but we have gotten rid of the desk and surprisingly, the area where it was felt a little lighter without it. Anyways, stay spooky.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (1:01:23)
scary
that the whole thing felt heavy.
That's kind of sad.
Gina (1:01:29)
Seeing a shadowy spirit figure in a basement is worst case scenario.
Fuck that. Yeah.
Kathryn (1:01:36)
especially when it's heavy.Yeah, I don't like that.
Gina (1:01:41)
and like sitting facing away from you. makes me think of like, Tom and I were talking about this the other day. It's this thing they do in horror movies where it'll like be a scene in a room or something and then the scene kind of ends but then the camera stays there and you realize there's someone or something in the room that you didn't see at first. Same vibe, same vibe as that. Scares the shit out of me.
Kathryn (1:01:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-mm. Stop. can't. Yeah.
Ugh. Yeah. It reminds me... You know what it reminds me of Which please don't ever watch. Is that one that you watch? Okay. I remember... I remember you watched one that I was like... That was way too scary for anybody.
Gina (1:02:08)
Mmm
No. God no.
Kathryn (1:02:17)
is a scene like that where it's like the camera is just sitting there for a very long time and then all of a sudden you see her. ⁓ my God. ⁓ my God.
And it's that shadowy... Nowadays movies... I don't love that my light just changed as I'm talking about this. Nowadays movies do that too well. That shadow, you can see the lights from outside, but it's dark inside. I feel like movies are too good at that now because that's the...
Gina (1:02:39)
Hahaha
Mmm.
Kathryn (1:02:53)
genuinely too afraid of the dark to watch movies that have that. And they all do now because it's an objectively scary thing.
Gina (1:02:59)
No, no, no thank you.
But anyway, well, the next time we talk to you guys, we're going to be basically one years old. So not to brag, but we're kind of toddlers now. Keep it cool. Yeah, all grown up. Anyway, until next time, keep it cool.
Kathryn (1:03:10)
Yay, we're all grown up.
and keep it creepy.
