Ep. 38: Hotel Emma
Gina (00:10)
Hello, welcome to I Scream, You Scream. I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:16)
I'm Kathryn.
Gina (00:17)
And for the month of July, we're telling stories about bars while we have some boozy ice cream. Unfortunately, the powers of dark magic have overcome us. have accidentally cursed ourselves, but you can help us break the curse if you leave us a five-star review. Or alternatively, share a link to this episode with a friend. That would really help us out. And then maybe we won't drown in hell for eternity. I don't know, something like that. Either way, grab a spoon, grab a glass, let's dig in.
Kathryn (00:41)
Maybe.
Are you, I think you're drinking the same thing? We're sticking with it? I think I saw the little green guy. Same.
Gina (00:49)
I, yes. Yep.
Nice. How is it? Still good?
Kathryn (00:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it looks so gross on camera. now it's like... it's just... Once the orange and the green start melting into the tan color, it just looks a mess, but it's good. It's delicious.
Gina (00:59)
Mine looks radioactive, it's okay.
Mmm.
Orange and green,
very beautiful together.
I wanna hear how it was up north.
Kathryn (01:17)
Up north, we spent the weekend up north. ⁓ It was hot as fuck. It was 95 degrees, 100 % humidity. ⁓ Yeah, awful. But fun, it was fun. The weather was awful. The trip was great. The trip was great. We went with my family. I was sick the two days prior to the trip. but I was feeling better day of.
Gina (01:26)
Jesus Christ.
Kathryn (01:44)
So it started off great. then day two, we spent all day on a pontoon boat. And it was so much fun, but the sun got to my body and may or may not have gotten a little bit of sun poisoning because day three, I was out for the count again. So I did a lot of sleeping on that trip. But it was like in a good way. That's.
Gina (01:51)
Ugh.
no!
Kathryn (02:11)
what it was for. We were just in a little house on the lake. So yeah, was just chill vibes. read a bunch, sat around a bunch, ate a bunch of s'mores, did some antiquing. I'll share some of the stuff that I got. I got a few cute things. I'll share some pictures on socials if anyone's interested. Yeah, it was fun. It was chill.
Gina (02:21)
⁓ yes, I saw the Instagram stories.
Kathryn (02:36)
Not physically. It was hot physically, but emotionally chill. Yeah, it was good. It was a good time.
Gina (02:45)
I feel like that's such a classic summer thing too. Like you go on a lake outing for the weekend or whatever and then you get sun poisoning and can't really go outside because you're so fucking tired.
Kathryn (02:56)
It's so funny because that has never happened to me before ever. The sun, like I'm fine in the sun and I use my SPF. and my sunburn wasn't that, it was just on my thighs. Like it wasn't anywhere else. It was just so bad that my body was like rejecting the notion of doing anything else. But yeah, I don't think I've ever had.
Gina (02:59)
Really?
⁓
Ouch.
Kathryn (03:21)
a sunburn so bad that it was like my body was inconsolable. This one, I think it was a combination of being out in the sun all day and the fact that I had been sick. because I was kind of surprised my sunburn wasn't that bad. So I was surprised it affected me so much. Yeah.
Gina (03:36)
But when you're fighting off or like just like
wrapping up kicking something out, yeah.
Kathryn (03:41)
Yeah.
Gina (03:42)
Well, I'm glad you had a good time. And if it was hot, at least you were on a nice lake.
Kathryn (03:44)
Yeah, it was good.
No, it was good. It was a good time. It was just, have to talk about like my body betraying me that first day because I was so happy that I was healthy and like could still go and stuff. And then the sun was like, no bitch, I hate you, remember? So that's okay. was fun.
Gina (03:53)
Ha ha ha!
Nice.
So I have two updates for you
First of all, wanna tell you about this candle that I got.
Kathryn (04:10)
Okay.
Gina (04:11)
It's in an egg.
literally in an empty eggshell. Somebody has poured wax and put a wick in and it is scented like the spring solstice. That was the name of the.
Kathryn (04:15)
My god.
God, I was so scared you were gonna say egg. It's scented like egg. I know you would.
Gina (04:27)
I was, it's scented like egg. No, but I would buy that too, either way.
Yes, excellent. ⁓ I also, the other update I have for you is that the other day, I don't know why I was doing this, but I was going through really old files on just like my Google Drive. And I found a screenshot of an email that you sent me when we used to work together. And it is, it is the most sublime. So I will tell you, the subject line is,
Kathryn (04:45)
god, I love doing that.
What? Which one? me.
Gina (04:57)
Got a fire request coming at ya. The email goes on to read, Yo, what up slug queen?
Kathryn (05:00)
Okay, I remember this.
Cough
Man, I had so much fun working with you. This was when we were still in the office, I think. Was it? It was so long ago. This was like five years ago.
Gina (05:15)
Same! Yes, yeah, we were probably sitting right next to each other when you sent this to me, probably.
The rest of the email in its entirety is read, report back, etc. Bless up, Kathryn
Kathryn (05:33)
Man, good times, good times. Gosh, that would have been longer ago than that. That would have been six years ago, five and a half, six years ago. Isn't that wild?
Gina (05:37)
I just wanted to surface that little memory.
my god.
That was wild. I also, found a bunch of pictures of us when we used to work together, just like taking pictures of each other at our desks. We had so much fun. I can't believe we got paid for that.
Kathryn (05:54)
love to do that. I love to do that. Yeah, that was that
was a wild, wild time. ⁓ I know for a fact that I have screenshots and stuff like that in my drive somewhere. Because it was remember while we were there, there was a period of time where I don't know what they were doing. They were updating something but we had to back up our files.
onto some other file. Do you remember this? Or is this a fever dream? We had, I remember needing to transfer all of my stuff to my personal files and then transfer it back, which as I'm talking through right now, I think they were just trying to steal our identities.
Gina (06:20)
Mm-mm. I don't remember that.
That doesn't sound
compliant.
Kathryn (06:38)
remember this happening. remember it was something that had to happen as they were like updating the system or something like that. And now that I'm talking through it, I'm like, I don't think this is real. But it did happen. It did happen. Because I because I in my dream may have been after you left, actually.
Gina (06:46)
That's so weird. ⁓ I don't remember that at all.
Hmm.
Kathryn (06:55)
I created a folder in my personal folder, like for all this stuff while we were transitioning it and it's in there somewhere. I may have cleaned a bunch of it out at this point, but they exist somewhere. And we were just very funny. We were very funny at work. We were definitely the personality.
Gina (06:59)
Aww.
We were hilarious.
Kathryn (07:14)
We were definitely the personality in that office, let me tell you what. 100%, absolutely.
Gina (07:20)
But yeah, I just wanted to share that memory with you. That beautiful memory.
Kathryn (07:24)
That's fun.
Gina (07:25)
One of Rue's cat hairs is like stuck to my nose. So if you see me, I'm not picking my nose. I think it's like wrapped around my septum ring or something. It's driving me fucking insane.
Kathryn (07:27)
you
There's like a perpetual
hair on me at all times.
Gina (07:37)
Gah.
Anyway, so happy to be here celebrating this beautiful bar month with my very best friend. May I beseech you to tell me a tale?
Kathryn (07:40)
Anyway.
You may. You absolutely
may. And let me tell you what, I'm very excited to talk about this because it is such a bonkers story. I had never, I had never heard of this before until recently. So I was just absolutely tickled pink when I heard about it because it's
Gina (07:58)
Okay.
Kathryn (08:09)
Quick trigger warning, I will be discussing murder and asshole businessmen. So if you're sensitive to either of those topics like I just be warned. That's a big part of this story.
Intro to Hotel Emma
Kathryn (08:26)
In the heart of San Antonio, Texas is a tourist friendly and locally beloved district called The Pearl. There are restaurants, bars, coffee shops, knickknack shops, ice cream shops, basically any type of shop you could possibly imagine. got beautiful industrial architecture, cobblestone walkways, brick buildings, a large grassy area where you can have picnic, attend a concert.
Whatever your heart desires, just like immaculate hangout vibes. ⁓ Yeah, it's cool. I would have liked to spend more time there. One of the most notable buildings in this district is Hotel Emma.
Gina (08:58)
Yeah.
Kathryn (09:08)
Hotel Emma is quote, a delectably unique 146 room hotel with seven top floor suites, a handsome bar and club room, an excellent restaurant, which is a purveyor of fine foods.
and public spaces reminiscent of fine old hotels and far-flung locales, that is per their website. So you know it's true. I can attest, I can attest. Basically, it's a fancy ass hotel designed to look like years gone by, but it wasn't always a hotel. Hotel Emma was originally built in 1894 to serve as the brew house for
Gina (09:31)
I guess they're, yeah, not biased.
Kathryn (09:50)
Pearl Brewing Company.
Emma Kohler
When it turned into a hotel, was named for Emma Kohler, who was a prominent leader in the beer industry during Prohibition. Exactly.
Gina (10:00)
Fuck yeah, a woman was a leader in the beer industry during Prohibition? That's fucking cool. No!
Kathryn (10:06)
Did you read my notes?
Okay, literally the next line that I wrote down, I said, a woman in the beer industry during prohibition, you say? Yes, yes. Let me tell you more. So Emma Benson was born to German immigrants in St. Louis, Missouri on February 25th, 1858, which I think is my father-in-law's birthday. So happy birthday.
Gina (10:17)
Same fucking page. That's dope.
Kathryn (10:35)
Not same year though. He was born in 1957. Anyway, so she was the youngest of eight children. She and her siblings spent their childhoods very active in German-American cultural associations. They were particularly active in the Ternverein movement. Are you familiar with that? Do you know what that is? Neither did I, and it's very interesting and relevant. I'll tell you why. Relevant to us. I'll explain why.
Gina (10:56)
No, what's that?
Okay.
Kathryn (11:05)
So the Ternverein Movement was, it's kind of confusing. I'm doing my best to describe it. It was a German political movement which originated by a group of political refugees called the Forty-Eighters. Their goal was to spread awareness and knowledge about German culture, physical fitness, and liberal politics. So sort of ⁓ an interesting hodgepodge of like various
Gina (11:34)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (11:35)
interests one can have, but it was like a political lifestyle movement. They created spaces called Turner's where fellow Germans would gather and do like gymnastics and just be liberal. Fun fact, the reason it's relevant, the event venue, Turner Hall in Milwaukee, it was
Gina (11:53)
I was just thinking, I was wondering that, yeah, okay.
Kathryn (12:00)
originally a Turner Hall, that's what they were called, Turner Halls, where these people would meet and do Turner things. That's why it kind of looks like a gymnasium, because it kind of was. Yeah. So that's how Emma was brought up. That's who she was. She was very progressive, very smart, very strong, both physically and mentally, that they were very active in this community. Meanwhile...
Gina (12:10)
That's so cool.
Kathryn (12:28)
As Emma's like practicing backflips in the name of democracy, a man named Otto Koehler emigrated from Germany to St. Louis in 1873, and he began working for his older brothers who ran a mercantile in St. Louis. He did this for a little while just to like make some cash after he came over from Germany, but he was bored as hell. He just wasn't into working at the mercantile. So eventually,
He started working for Griesedieck Griesedieck Beverage Company. I wrote it out phonetically and did my best. ⁓ But ⁓ it's a beverage company. was a brewery. And it was there that Otto learned everything he needed to know about how to successfully run a brewing business. In his free time, Otto would attend German cultural events. And it was at one of these events that he and Emma first met. It can be presumed that they were taken with each other because of their politics and love of hard work and financial success, which were all things that they both valued a great deal. And in 1882, they were married. And then just a few years later, Otto got an offer that he couldn't refuse at the Lone Star Brewing Association out in San Antonio, Texas.
They packed their bags, headed out west with the promise of adventure and riches and riches they did find. Basically, if it was an industry that was known for generating a lot of profit, Otto had a toe dipped in. He invested in oil, copper mining, real estate, banking, like literally everything. Yeah, like all the big money industries he was he was investing in.
Gina (14:16)
Damn.
Kathryn (14:22)
He basically was in the business of generating business. That's what he did. He was a businessman. But his main passion, besides money, was brewing. So he continued to work his way up until eventually in 1902, he became the president and the manager of the San Antonio Brewing Association, whose signature product was Pearl Beer.
From this point forward, Otto would grow to be one of the wealthiest men in Texas, but Emma was right by his side the whole time. They both were very prominent members of the community. Emma in particular was very involved in several local organizations. She played a huge role in helping him do all of his business and like community affairs. So.
She wasn't just a socialite, she actually helped him with all the work he was doing, particularly in his brewing position. Right, she was, it was one of those things didn't get official credit because it was, it was the turn of the century and she was a woman, you know, like he was the CEO and she was, yeah. So.
Gina (15:14)
Fuck yeah, Emma. Yeah, women's history, yeah.
Kathryn (15:34)
His biggest claim to fame at the San Antonio Brewing Association was creating a pretty in-depth strategy for growing the brewery, not just in sales, which obviously was a big focus for them for any business that would be important, but also physical size. They wanted to physically expand and make their land bigger and make the property bigger and have more production, more buildings, more this, more that, more they just wanted. It's Texas. Everything's bigger in Texas.
So they just wanted to grow, grow. And like I said, Emma had a huge hand in that. She was with him while they were putting the plans together. She was helping map everything out. She did everything except the title for what she was doing, basically. like I said, they continued working. The business continued growing.
They were active and beloved in their community. They had tons of friends. They had tons of success. They had tons of money. They just continued getting richer and richer and richer and everything was perfect. Until one day tragedy struck as it does in all these stories. It was reported that Emma was in a huge car accident, which she did survive, but she ultimately was left confined to her bed from that point forward.
And I believe the accident 1910, 1911-ish, I want to say.
it left her kind of unable to do as much work as she had previously been able to do, both for the business, but also for the community. Remember, she was in a whole bunch of organizations and, you know, she was a philanthropist and all that kind of stuff. So she kind of had to slow down a little bit. ⁓ But despite the fact that Emma was bedridden, the Koehlers still traveled to Germany every summer to see their families who were still over there.
Gina (17:09)
Mmm.
Emma Dumkey
(AKA Emma 2)
Kathryn (17:28)
And it was on one of these trips in 1911 that they met and hired a nurse to take care of Emma full time. That nurse's name was also Emma, Emma Dumkey. I will henceforth be referring to her as Emma Two for the duration of this story. ⁓ So Emma Two ended up moving.
Gina (17:38)
Okay.
Kathryn (17:54)
back with them to San Antonio to be Emma's full-time caregiver. She had her own place, so she wasn't exactly a living caretaker, but I believe the Koehlers paid for her apartment and like set her up and everything like that. So it was that she wasn't living with them, but she was living on their property basically. And then they took care of everything for her in exchange for her caring for Emma. It wasn't long before Emma 2 and Mr. Kohler started having an affair.
Gina (18:20)
Ugh.
Kathryn (18:28)
It is, in my opinion, kind of unclear exactly how consensual this fair was. There's not a lot of information on the internet suggesting that it wasn't consensual. Most people seem to
say that this was, you I don't know, they don't really mention it at all, whether it was consensual or not. I'm not gonna outright accuse Otto of anything, but the source for this information is just my own opinion. I do want it to be clear that like this woman's entire lifeline was Otto. Like I said, like he was paying for everything.
Gina (18:58)
Hehehehe
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (19:09)
He did everything for her. He was like the reason she was able to be in America. If she didn't do what he wanted her to do, all he had to do was send her back to Germany and that would be it. So I do want to add that because no one out there is talking about that. And based on the way this story goes, I do suspect that this wasn't 100 % consensual. We will never know for sure. That's just me using my little woman brain. Okay.
Gina (19:24)
Yeah.
Kathryn (19:39)
So. One of the biggest reasons I have this opinion and suspect it may not have been entirely 100 % consensual is the fact that at one point, Emma 2 did reach out to a friend of hers to basically confide in her and say that she was uncomfortable with her current living arrangement. And she said that it was like weird for her to
Gina (20:04)
Ugh.
Kathryn (20:08)
like care for Mrs. Kohler who she cared about by day and then like be Otto's little woman by night. It just was too much for her. She didn't like it. She was uncomfortable. It was weirding her out. So she basically told this friend I'm at the end of my rope here. It's all just too much. I need some support. So she enlists this friend to come and help her tag team taking care of Emma.
Gina (20:20)
Hmm.
Emma Bergmeister
(AKA Emma 3)
Kathryn (20:35)
So she didn't need to be so overwhelmed. So this friend moves into the house with Emma 2 The friend's name you ask? Emma. I won't, yes, Emma.
Gina (20:44)
Really? I won't.
Is this going to be Emma 3
Kathryn (20:49)
Her name is Emma 3 but her birth name Emma Bergmeister, but we'll be calling her Emma 3. So we have the three Emma's wife Emma, nurse Emma and friend slash backup nurse Emma. What ends up happening with Emma 3? She ends up having an affair with Otto.
Gina (20:50)
Okay. Fucking Christ, dude, how many Emmas does he need?
Kathryn (21:12)
Three apparently.
We're capped at the Emma's. There's no more Emma's. ⁓ But again, like this is also kind of another reason I don't think this is 100 % consensual, because He started kind of having this whole Hugh Hefner thing going on where these two women are living together and-
Gina (21:16)
Okay.
Yeah.
Kathryn (21:32)
He's got like mistress number one and mistress number two who are Emma two and Emma 3. And it was straight up said when he would come out, come around to have like a date or a loan time with one of the Emma's the other Emma would like make herself scarce and go do shopping or go see a show or something and like come back when their time was up. It was weird. Yeah. So it was like,
Gina (21:39)
Hmm.
I'm getting a big fucking ick from this. There's no, that's not right. Yeah Especially with that power discrepancy like if that's what you're into fine as long as you are all Equal in that relationship in terms of power dynamics this no, fucked
Kathryn (22:00)
Big ick. Big ick. Yes.
100%.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, Ihe had total control over the one. think they all were German immigrants, but I don't think Emma Three...was like trapped there under like not as reliant. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah. Because she didn't come over as his employee the way Emma to did basically. Meanwhile, Emma one, our main girl Emma is just at home minding her business, allegedly doesn't know and I only say allegedly because people talk and he was a big prominent figure. They were big prominent figures. So it's like
Gina (22:28)
not as reliant for immigration purposes maybe? Okay.
Mm hmm.
Kathryn (22:54)
The only reason I bring it up is women aren't stupid, so I'm sure she did know to an extent.
Gina (22:57)
Yeah. Yeah, especially back then. Like there's a difference between not knowing something and not saying something. And this was back when not having a husband was like, if you were a divorcee, it was seen as this big embarrassment. So I get it.
Kathryn (23:01)
Especially back then.
Right, exactly, exactly. So this arrangement, if that's what you want to call it, goes on for a while. Otto was in a whole ass relationship with all three of these women until 1913 when they went on their summer trip to Germany and Emma 2 traveled with them, like she always did before. And it was on this trip that Emma 2 met and fell in love with a different man.
Named Martin Daschle. And he lived in St. Louis and just so happened to be visiting Germany at the same time they were. So when they get back to San Antonio, Emma 2, fucks off to Missouri to marry this Martin guy. Yeah, so she leaves. It's at this point that Otto declares his love for Emma 3, the replacement Emma. He's like,
Gina (23:42)
Hmm.
Nice.
Otto!
Kathryn (24:09)
I can't put the moves on my sick wife. She's like sleeping in bed. My main bitch up and left. So I love you now. That's basically what happened. Yeah. Yes. So he asks Emma 3, if I leave my wife, will you marry Yeah.
Gina (24:17)
Jesus Christ.
Why would you leave a female leader in the beer industry during the fucking prohibition? That's dumb.
Kathryn (24:34)
Because she couldn't walk? I don't know, it's so stupid. This guy sucks. Yes, yeah. So Emma, which one are we on? Emma 3 is like, there's no way this guy's leaving his wife to your point because why the fuck would you? She doesn't believe it for a second. So she declines this fake ass proposal and is reportedly still okay with like,
Gina (24:38)
Yeah, fuck Otto.
Kathryn (25:02)
being in this relationship, she just doesn't want to go through the whole process of like marriage and all that. ⁓ Which is another thing I'm like, okay, this probably wasn't consensual. She's probably sitting there trying to like, think of a way out, you know. again, power dynamics, all the things that we've already mentioned, it's shady as fuck at this point. So it appeared that everything was back to quote unquote normal for a while, everyone was happy with this new arrangement.
Gina (25:14)
Mm-hmm.
Drama ensues
Kathryn (25:29)
You know, wife doesn't know what's happening, Otto's doing whatever the hell he wants, Emma Three is just along for the ride. That's basically what everyone is like casually living through. Until the following year, when the Kohlers took their usual trip to Germany, Emma Three was not invited. What she got instead of an invitation to summer in Germany was two $10,000 bank notes.
Gina (25:48)
Hmm.
From whom?
Kathryn (25:59)
From Otto. In today's money, that's the equivalent of roughly $650,000 or £444,000.
Gina (26:01)
Wow.
So do we think that Emma told Otto you're not fucking bringing your mistress and he was like, okay shit, well at least I'll give her some money so she doesn't feel bitter about it?
Kathryn (26:21)
I think either that or he was like trying to get rid of Emma 3 and was like trying it was hush money. Yeah. Yeah. So either Emma knew and like what you just said was like, get rid of her do whatever you need to do blah blah blah or Otto didn't want Emma to know slash you know, his name be tainted or whatever and was gonna try to
Gina (26:29)
Like paying her off. ⁓ okay, okay, okay, okay. Fuck.
Mm-hmm.
My god.
Kathryn (26:50)
and like get rid of her. Either way, shady as fuck. Like there's no good reason to do this, you know?
Gina (26:54)
Yeah, gross.
Kathryn (26:59)
After this, details honestly get a little muddy in my opinion. There's a lot of different, I don't wanna say different sources saying different things, but it was like, at this time, different people were saying different things. It kind of became a he said, she said, they said type of situation. they're all very similar things. It was just the way in which things happened.
Gina (27:14)
Mm.
Kathryn (27:22)
the why behind the what gets a little like depends on your interpretation of the situation. at this point, Emma 3 said that Otto started to act suspicious, ⁓ particularly when he got home from Germany. So like right off the bat, it's like, does Emma know? Does he not want other people to know is something going on?
Emma 3 claims that she was nervous that Otto had grown depressed by Emma 2 leaving because he was very sad and didn't want her to go. And after all this time, he grew like more and more depressed that his mistress didn't want to be with him anymore. So sad. know. So she
Gina (28:03)
Poor baby.
Kathryn (28:09)
Emma 3 was scared that he was going to hurt himself. Other people say that Emma III suspected that he had met someone else in Germany and she didn't like that. Which like, he probably fucking did. Right, exactly. He of course met somebody, but whether or not that matters to this story is neither here nor there. Like 100 % believe he did though.
Gina (28:23)
Probably. Judging by his track record, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (28:35)
allegedly Emma 3 hired someone to follow Otto around and like hopefully catch him with this mistress number three. It's just wild. Like yes, yes. And again, this is like the he said, she said, we don't know. I don't know if it's confirmed she had someone follow him, but it's definitely not confirmed why. Like...
Gina (28:43)
Come on!
Gosh, that's crazy.
Kathryn (29:01)
Was it because she was afraid he was gonna hurt himself or was it because she didn't want him to be with someone else or did she not have someone follow him at all and this is just rumor? We do not know. ⁓ This guy sucks. I hate him. So.
Gina (29:11)
Either way, this man is so much fucking work.
The murder
Kathryn (29:17)
All of this is to say, I think what matters most during this time period ⁓ after their most recent trip to Germany is the fact that that is when paranoia from all sides kind of start to escalate. cares why, who cares what, it's that people were starting get a little crazy at this point. So Emma Three calls Emma Two in St. Louis and is like, shits weird. Like I don't know what to do. I don't know if I should be afraid for my safety or if I should be afraid for his safety. I don't know if I'm gonna, you know, lose my home if he did meet someone else is she gonna get the boot like she's just kind of like I don't know what's going on. She needs some moral support. So much like Emma to call them a three for support Emma 3 is now calling him a to back. So Emma to travels from St. Louis.
Gina (30:09)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (30:14)
back to Texas and she and Emma Three like work out their emotions on the situation. They talk it over and they decide that they need to have a little mistress meeting with Otto. So I know my heart rate's elevated right now. Yes. Yeah. So they're having a weird little family meeting and Otto goes over to what is now Emma Three's house.
Gina (30:30)
Join me in the principal's office, please.
my gosh.
Kathryn (30:43)
Used to be Emma Two, but they swapped.
Gina (30:45)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (30:46)
And they're gonna talk it out. Like they decide they're having this meeting, they're gonna figure out what the fuck is happening. But they never get to talking because on the afternoon of November 13th, 1914, when Otto arrived to talk things out, he was shot and killed by Emma 3
Man, she killed the guy. Do you have questions? Because otherwise I'll explain a little further.
Gina (31:12)
I way more suspicious of like her thing about, maybe he's going to hurt himself because… Tell me more.
Kathryn (31:19)
So let me keep going because yeah.
And preface, we do not know for sure when we never will. But
Gina (31:28)
Hmm.
How did Otto Koehler’s neck get broken?
Kathryn (31:32)
I said, Otto died by gunshot. He had three gunshot wounds and a broken neck, which, listen, because this part has fucked up so many people, but let me explain. A lot of people claim that there was some weird, like, torture...
shit going on because how could two little women break a whole ass man's neck? But there's an explanation. The broken neck is from one of the gunshot wounds which hit him at the exact right angle. the force basically snapped his neck sorry graphic trigger warning. lot of people don't and I only I looked into it because I was like I don't believe that these two women just
Gina (32:09)
I didn't know that was a thing, my gosh.
Kathryn (32:18)
broke this guy's neck. So they didn't. It is possible. It does happen. It's very rare. But it's it's possible. And based on what his injuries look like, that is what happened. They're confident in that. He also had another gunshot wound in his skull just below his left eye. And the third one went through his chest, which like, I'm sorry, not to be crass, but like,
Gina (32:29)
Okay.
Kathryn (32:46)
She sounds like a very good shot because those are three like very deadly shots. ⁓ So like, I don't condone murder, but that is like kind of impressive. But like in a Texas way, I'm sorry, but like, it's very Texas. Like, that's Texas, baby. like, you can trust a Texas woman to be a good shot. That's all I'm saying. So
Gina (32:48)
She does.
in a Dex this way. ⁓
Hmm.
Kathryn (33:15)
she was aiming to kill basically those are all very precise shots. When authorities arrived on the scene both Emma's are arrested but Emma 2 is set free because it was clear that she was not the one who did anything. Emma 3 is let out on bail, immediately flees to Europe where she starts working as a nurse in the war. I don't mean to laugh but like
Gina (33:41)
Wow.
Kathryn (33:44)
We just casually let her leave the country? Like, what? I don't know. Yeah, she just fucks off to fucking like Germany or something. which I guess she could do. Like she went back home essentially, but which I don't even know. Like, I don't know when she came over because Emma 2 is the one that they met in Germany and Emma 3, I don't know where she, when Emma 2 called her, I don't know where she came from. Maybe I'll look this up and we'll...
Gina (33:47)
What a colorful life.
Damn. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kathryn (34:13)
If watching the YouTube video, it'll be like right here somewhere. So she's in Germany. The judge in the case is like, get your fucking ass back here. She's like, OK, fine. So she's just like, all right, fine. So yeah, I don't know how that works. She did not run any further than the war, which like sounds like as far as you'd want to go anyway. So she comes back.
Gina (34:27)
She said, okay. Good luck catching me, pal.
Okay.
The trial
Kathryn (34:42)
Trial starts three years later. So what would that be? 1918, I believe, is where we are right now.
Gina (34:46)
Okay.
Kathryn (34:48)
Emma Three did admit to shooting Otto during this trial, but she pled not guilty by reason of self-defense because remember, she claimed that she had been feeling unsafe around him for a long time and like uncomfortable with the situation for a long time. And she claimed that she only had her gun handy because
Gina (35:02)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (35:12)
suspected that he was going to snap and be weird and violent. So she was scared and had a gun, ⁓ which according to her, he did as the story goes on the day of their meeting, Otto burst through the door is all upset that they're all having this weird family meeting. He doesn't like it, things have gotten out of his control. And he's just yelling like, all over the place just losing his mind in a tizzy.
waving his pistol all over the place and looking for Emma 3. So then she comes out of the back of the house from where she was, he raised his pistol at her. She shot him with her gun first and self defense. Like that's the story. Emma 2 corroborates this story.
In addition to Emma 2 backing up everything Emma 3 said, everyone in the courthouse during this trial and a huge percentage of the public also, like backed up everything Emma 3 said.
It was reported in the Houston, I know, yeah, wasn't expecting that. And of course, naturally, it wasn't everybody, but she had a big following. She had a big support network. was reported in the Houston, Houston. Houston. It was reported in the Houston Post that after her testimony, after Emma 3’s testimony, people applauded in the courthouse and women,
Gina (36:19)
Damn.
Yeah.
Houston!
Kathryn (36:47)
openly wept over everything she said.
Gina (36:49)
This is reminding me of
Chicago, like the musical Chicago.
Kathryn (36:53)
Yes, me too. It was around that time too, a little earlier, but still, yes. Yes, this very much has Chicago vibes. Yes. people just really fully seemed to support her. It seemed like a big, big percentage of the courthouse was there for her, not Otto. And discourse around it was, it was self-defense. So I don't know.
Gina (36:56)
Yeah.
Kathryn (37:19)
I don't know if maybe like he wasn't, it was like known that he wasn't the upstanding like citizen that maybe people wanted him to be or what, but yeah, a lot of people were on her side. And then on January 22nd, 1918, after a five day trial, Emma was found not guilty by reason of self-defense. Yeah. One year later.
Gina (37:24)
Okay, Emma 3.
Kathryn (37:49)
She married one of the jurors on her case.
Gina (37:53)
Fuck off! Ultimate power move. What the fuck? I have no notes. That is excellent.
Kathryn (37:56)
No, it. Yeah. Yeah. I have no no notes. No notes whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. And
Also to your Chicago comparison, I wasn't going to add this, but it's part of why I was thinking of Chicago. Ever re thing that you read about Emma 3 describes her as this like leggy blonde who wore like red lipstick. She was just a bombshell. You know, so like
Gina (38:24)
Fucking Roxy, yeah.
What happened to Emma Koehler?
Kathryn (38:26)
Yes, yeah, very Roxy heart. Yeah. So what the hell? Whatever happened to our girl Emma, the Emma, Emma one of Hotel Emma fame? She was totally fucking fine. Eventually she got better. She got better and she was able to get up, walk around and live a perfectly normal and healthy life. Starting immediately after Otto's death in 1914, she took over all business ventures. She managed the entire portfolio of real estate investments that Otto had made. And she stepped into all of his board positions, including but not limited to acting as the director for the Central Trust Company and the Texas Transportation Company, which were two organizations that they as a couple had started to help with the transportation of beer across Texas. a year after Otto died, Emma donated roughly 14 acres of land to the city of San Antonio so that they could establish the Otto Kohler Park. And there was only one stipulation with that land gift, and that was that beer must be sold on Sundays, which I love. Yeah, isn't that fun? So, yeah.
Gina (39:42)
⁓ I love that. That's great.
Kathryn (39:47)
Of course, Emma's most notable venture is what we've already talked about, and that is after Otto's death, she assumed the helm of the San Antonio Brewing Association. And basically, she enacted every single business strategy that she and Otto put together together. Put together together? Yeah, that makes sense. They worked on them together before his death.
Gina (40:07)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (40:11)
And she grew the business like a weed. She's pretty much known for single-handedly guiding the company through prohibition when it hit in 1920. a big reason they survived is she essentially saw it coming and planned ahead. So many breweries closed down during that time, but in 1919, before it started, she repurposed all of their facilities to generate non-alcoholic goods with a focus on dairy products, which everyone needs, especially back, I bet she did. I know, that's what I thought too. was a main source of protein for a lot of people, especially leading into the Great Depression when meat was so expensive. yeah, it was something that everybody needed and wanted. So before Prohibition even hit, they transitioned to the dairy products.
Gina (40:45)
Wonder if she made ice cream. ⁓ my gosh. I love this.
Well that's a good point.
Huh.
Kathryn (41:07)
And then when Prohibition was lifted in 1933, they just picked up right where they left off with the beer. And secretly, they probably were still producing beer just like under the table, but like off the record, we won't officially say that because that was illegal. But then once Prohibition was over, we're into Great Depression now. So like they kind of already set themselves up for success with that because of the food products that they were producing. And also she immediately expanded ⁓ kind of when prohibition was coming to an end, which just kind of helped them cycle even further throughout the Great Depression. So she kind of was just one step ahead of the economy her entire career. And
Gina (41:41)
Mm-hmm.
What a fucking visionary.
Kathryn (42:03)
She really was. I think one of the most important things to keep in mind that really wasn't talked about directly. It was talked around a lot in a lot of the things I was reading. But all of these leadership roles that she had were that she needed to be elected to stay on.
Gina (42:26)
How?
Kathryn (42:27)
So like the guys wanted her around, like they knew she knew what she was doing. And therefore she was able to hold these positions long term. They could have easily replaced her after like the initial, okay, my husband's dead now I'm the interim director. They could have gotten rid of her immediately, but they didn't because she was good at what she was doing.
Gina (42:37)
It's massively impressive.
Kathryn (42:50)
Eventually, her nephew did take over the business. They never had any kids, so nephew took over. But she stayed an active member in the company until her death in 1943. So she was leader for many, many years. And even when she wasn't the leader anymore, she still was part of decision making and like her vote mattered and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, she really is known for like being
a huge prominent figure in the brewing industry, ⁓ not even just as a woman, but in particular, as a woman, because that was just completely unheard of at the time. I do have one other thing to get off my chest about Emma, and just the way she fucking thrived after her husband's death, respectfully.
I was looking for official documentation of everything, I kept feeling really stumped because I couldn't find anything about the car accident she was in. And I kept looking and looking and looking until I found an article that kind of had me feeling a little vindicated. And it's because other people have also been unable to find record of this alleged car accident. One in particular.
an article about an author Robert L. Gulley who wrote the book titled Money, Murder, Sex and Beer. Excellent title. He also noticed that he couldn't find any official record of the car accident and upon doing further research there is a possibility that there never was a car accident to begin with and she
Gina (44:21)
Love that.
Kathryn (44:39)
may have actually been suffering from something called neurasthenia, more commonly known as chronic fatigue syndrome. The I guess, at risk population at the time, the most heavily diagnosed people were, this is straight from Wikipedia, I thought this was not funny, but it was like, yeah, there were three most commonly susceptible.
Gina (44:48)
Hmm.
Kathryn (45:04)
demographics. One, the wives of farmers who were quote made sick by isolation and lack of engaging activity. I know. Two, businessmen with too many stressful ventures and three, society women who were overwhelmed by endless engagement.
Gina (45:11)
Aww.
I'm simply too overwhelmed by my soirees.
Kathryn (45:23)
I know. Exactly.
So it's basically extreme burnout. It's the thing that celebrities are hospitalized for all the time nowadays. And, you know, if you take a look at this list, she was kind of two of those people. She was a society woman, but also a businessman. ⁓ So there is speculation that perhaps she got this diagnosis and was basically told to be on bed rest because she was too stressed and overworking herself. And
Gina (45:28)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (45:51)
because the goal the colors valued like hard work and climbing the ladder and all that so heavily, it's speculated that they may have been just embarrassed by this diagnosis. So they fabricated this car accident. So they didn't need to admit that she needed to rest. Basically, for lack of a better phrase. And this is just speculation. It is worth noting that cars
were not really widely accessible until 1908, which is just three years before her accident. So it is perfectly possible that they just didn't have the infrastructure to have, you know, official regulations and official reporting on every accident that ever happens. It's just a little suspicious that, you know, with how prominent they are and how well known they were that there would be no record of the situation. So that's why
Gina (46:33)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kathryn (46:48)
If they were just any old family, this wouldn't be suspicious, but because they were who they were, there should be record on it, basically. So that's why a lot of people are kind of questioning what she actually had. Also, the fact that she did get better after so many years, particularly once her deadbeat ass husband died. So it's like, yeah, right. you know, take from this what you will, literally since
Gina (47:07)
That is interesting. That's interesting, the timing of that.
Kathryn (47:16)
his death, everything has been speculation other than the success that she had business wise. That is the only thing that is 100 % we know this for a fact, because we saw her doing it, you know, everything else is kind of like up in the air kind of a mystery.
Gina (47:27)
Mm-hmm.
Hotel Emma hauntings
Kathryn (47:32)
So yeah, I mean, that was her life. That was everything that happened to them. There are, of course, rumors that Hotel Emma is haunted by our lovely, wonderful namesake, Emma Kohler. it is said that while construction was going on, in the process of converting it from brewery to...
Several of the construction workers claimed to see a woman walking throughout the halls. And it was when the property was closed to the public because it was under construction at the time. And it happened so frequently that several workers refused to return to the project because they were so like they were freaked out by it. They didn't want to be part of it anymore. So even to this day, many hotel guests claim to see a woman walking down the hallway.
⁓ kind of out of place. They don't recognize her. She doesn't seem like she belongs there. And then when they follow her, they notice that she's disappeared upon turning the corner. Legend has it that this is the spirit of Emma tabs on everyone to make sure business is running smoothly. ⁓ I love it. I love the concept of her still kind of managing the place, you know.
Gina (48:39)
Love that.
Even in death,
she's like, I need to keep an eye on this ship. Yeah.
Kathryn (48:47)
⁓ She's still that boss. Yeah, she's still the boss babe that she always was. Yeah,
to wrap up the bar aspect of this story, there's plenty of beer talk in here, but if you are so inclined to stay at Hotel Emma, they do have a lovely bar. You know I love a freaking hotel bar. It's one of my favorite vibes ever. most popular signature cocktail that they have on their menu is called the Three Emmas.
Gina (49:09)
Mm-hmm.
Ha!
Kathryn (49:16)
And if you order
it, I know, I knew you were gonna love this. If you order it, your bartender will remind you that quote, one is not enough, but be careful, because three will kill you.
Gina (49:19)
I love that.
Yes! I love that. my gosh. Do you know what kind of cocktail it is? Like what? I'm still on the booze. I'm like, what can you drink?
Kathryn (49:30)
Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't that a wild story? ⁓ So the the base... No, it's I looked it up. I meant to copy it because we'll we'll include it. We'll we'll share it right here. ⁓ The base is Pearl Beer. And then there's like a little rose and a little some like citrusy floral something or other. It sounds... I'm not a beer drinker, but it sounds... everything they did with it.
Gina (49:53)
Yum.
That sounds good.
Kathryn (50:00)
Sounds I would I would give it a shot. It sounds good. Sounds like so I think you would like it. Yeah, it sounds like something you would like. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we'll share the actual thing. Yeah, isn't that I I knew I didn't know anything about this until I was in San Antonio earlier this year and they have parts of the story right on the wall. I mean, you can read the story of everything that happened
Gina (50:04)
I was just thinking, because I love the floral, yeah, the florally stuff. That is a fucking wild story.
My gosh.
Kathryn (50:29)
The lobby is very cool. It's very. You can definitely tell it used to be a brewery, and it's very old, very cool. The bar is beautiful. When we were there, there was this country singer doing like Patsy Cline covers. It was just so vibey. It was very Texas. It was fun. It was my first time in Texas. So I was like living my best life. It was great. yeah.
Gina (50:49)
Yeah.
Kathryn (50:55)
It's a beautiful hotel. The building is stunning.
Gina (50:58)
I remember you sending me pictures when you were there and it is fucking gorgeous.
Kathryn (51:00)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (51:02)
This is two episodes in a row where I feel like we've been gossiping the whole time and I love it.
Kathryn (51:07)
I was so excited to tell you this story because of that. Even as I was writing, was like, my God, no. Did she really? What happened next? Yeah.
Gina (51:13)
my gosh! ⁓ Yeah,
holy fuck. You know what? One thing I love about this story that, and maybe it's something that happened, it just didn't make it into record or whatever, the distinct lack of women bashing other women, just seemed like they were all helping each other out.
Kathryn (51:20)
Yeah.
Yes! I was wondering if you were gonna catch on to that because I didn't want to outright say it and project too deeply because I know we're real passionate about that but think my favorite part - There's no real record of Emma, Emma 1, main Emma, bashing the other two. It was, she kind of just like kept her head high and continued. Like she, she mourned her husband, did like, they had this giant ass funeral. It was one of the highest attended funerals in Texas. It was like one of those, but then she just like moved on with her life. It didn't seem like there was any.
Gina (51:48)
Mm.
Mm.
Yeah
Kathryn (52:10)
fuck these other bitches type energy. Like, and like you said, maybe it just wasn't reported on because that wasn't the story, but I appreciate that that's not the important part of this story. You know, whether it happened or not, I'm happy that it's communicated the way that it has been all these years.
Gina (52:21)
Yes, agreed. And I think too.
Same,
I like that this is the story that we have. And I think that if there had been women bashing other women or putting each other down and shit, that might have come out in the trial. Because I think Emma One could have just gone to Emma Three's trial and been like, nope, I knew she was a murderess from the very first moment. That's why she stole my husband. You know what I mean? And it doesn't sound like there was any of that.
Kathryn (52:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
There is one quote that I found from Emma threes new husband, the juror she married his sister some statement about how
I don't remember how she phrased it. I'll try to find the quote and we can pop it in. But basically she was saying like, I'm not saying it wasn't self-defense. just, I am a little bit scared of Emma. But it seems to have been said in the way of like, this bitch did admit to killing this man. So like she seemed to be saying it in that way, not in a like, I think she did it. I think it was like, okay, she's confident enough to have three
Gina (53:14)
I get that. Yeah.
Kathryn (53:30)
very precise shots I don't ever want to cross her, you know, which like, yeah, same, same energy.
Gina (53:33)
That's fucking, yeah, yeah, same. Definitely same. I hope the three Emma's hang out in the next life and have cocktail parties.
Kathryn (53:42)
I was gonna say I'm pretty sure they're all gone now, but same. Yeah. Maybe they're all hanging out at the hotel. Maybe they're all at the bar.
Gina (53:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And every time they see someone order the 3M as cocktail, they all high five and go, woohoo. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you for telling me that story. That was really interesting.
Kathryn (53:56)
Yeah, and then they steal the tip jar.
welcome. I would love for you to close us out.
Scary on top: More mass panics!
Gina (54:11)
⁓ Did you want to do a scary on top? Okay. By the way, we haven't told anyone this, but we're calling this new segment scary on top. Yeah. ⁓
Kathryn (54:14)
I sure do.
Yeah, we've been calling it that internally for a long time, even before we
started it, and then we just never told anyone. We just giggled about it amongst ourselves and leave you all in the dark.
Gina (54:30)
Yeah, ⁓
and the scary on top is at the end of the episode one of us has some shit to say so we're gonna say what we want
Kathryn (54:35)
Excellent.
Gina (54:37)
So back in May, we did a whole month on mass hysteria. And I was going through like my old notes the other day, just like podcast notes as part of my Google drive, clean out, whatever. And I found a ton of interesting examples of weird panics over the years that weren't meaty enough for a full episode. So I'm...
Kathryn (54:49)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (54:57)
I'm gonna tell you some of my favorites because I think that they're funny and interesting. First one is Monty Python related. Have you ever seen like Monty Python stuff? I can't remember. Okay, okay. So this is about Life of Brian. If you haven't seen it, Monty Python did this movie called Life of Brian, which kind of pokes fun at the whole Christ narrative and Christianity thing. It's about this guy named Brian who was born, I think on the same day as Jesus and he becomes convinced that he's actually the Messiah and it's...
Kathryn (55:01)
Love it.
Yes. Yeah.
Gina (55:27)
and see what's very funny. And when it came out, there was one specific town in Wales that refused to show the movie. It's this place called Aberystwyth. I looked up how to say that, so I think I got it right. And they didn't want to show it because it was very immoral. It wasn't officially banned or anything, but it was like very stamped down upon in the town. Cut to 2008, this movie came out in like 79, I think. Cut to 2008, they elected a mayor.
Kathryn (55:39)
Okay. You did great.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (55:56)
named Sue Jones Davies, who turns out was an actor in that movie. She played Brian's girlfriend, Judith Iscariot, instead of Judas. And when she became elected, somebody told her about this movie being like a point of contention in the town. And she was like, huh, that's silly. So she sponsored a charity screening of it. Yeah. Isn't that so cool?
Kathryn (56:10)
⁓ my god. Wait, that's so funny.
What? ⁓ my God. Like,
after she was elected. That's fantastic. I love that.
Gina (56:27)
Mm-hmm, after she was elected, Yes, yeah,
so that's number one. The second one is about the show Hannibal, which I've only seen a few episodes of it. I do remember it being very good. I remember it being, I don't remember where I watched it, but I remember enjoying it. It was a very like, you get hooked, you know what I mean?
Kathryn (56:39)
I never watched that. Yeah.
I remember it being on my list and then I just never got to it and I forgot about it until this moment.
Gina (56:51)
Well, it has that actor in it. He looks like a shark. I always forget his name, but he's terrifying. He's the one who plays Hannibal. What's his name? Yeah. Mads Mikkelsen.
Kathryn (56:57)
Wait, wait, let me see. I think I know who you're talking about.
Are we racing?
Gina (57:05)
So in the show Hannibal, this is less of a mass panic and more just something silly that people were stressed out about. There's a scene in the show where a bunch of people have been like flayed. Like there's a killer on the loose who is,
Kathryn (57:19)
Yeah.
Gina (57:20)
kind of skinning people alive a little bit. And because these people were flayed, they're naked when they're on the screen because it's like, you you have to show the damage that was done to their body. And when NBC saw like the rough cut of this, they were cool with the flaying, but not with having their butts showing. So their solution to this was to cover the butts in more blood so people didn't have to see them.
Kathryn (57:23)
Sorry.
Okay, I have so many things to say right now. You know what, actually, this is, this is a thing I think about all the time. Like, we could do a whole episode on this. We could, we could, we could have beefed this up and just made this an opinion episode because, well, first of all, I have to address when you mentioned flaying, I did laugh a little bit. It's not because I think flaying is funny. It's because somehow
Gina (57:52)
hahahahah
Kathryn (58:15)
This is the third conversation this week that I've had about flying, which is new for me. So I'll send you this video because it was very, it was kind of very accidentally funny. When we were on vacation, parents and niece went to bed. So was just Phil, my brother and me sitting around the campfire. And somehow we started talking about like the most painful ways you could die. And I have this like...
Gina (58:21)
Why?
Mmm.
Kathryn (58:44)
very soothing, beautiful, beautiful video of the campfire. And in the background, you can hear Adam, my brother, like reading off the list of most painful ways to die. And flaying is one of them. Anyway, so I was just like, wow, I
I don't remember what the other one was. I think I just was telling that story. The other thing I have to say is what the fuck? Like we're offended by a couple of butts, so let's add violence? Hard pass. Fuck that. I hate that opinion. The fact that like human bodies are more offensive than violence is just, it's such a universal thing in the Western world and yet.
Gina (59:11)
I know. It's a weird opinion.
Kathryn (59:25)
No one recognizes how fucking stupid it is. That drives me nuts.
Gina (59:27)
Yeah, it's one
of those things that feels regressive, it's not actually regressive because we've never moved past it. Like there's nothing to regress to, we're still there. yes, yeah, yeah, Yeah, so that made me just roll my eyes, the mental gymnastics of that. So this third one is my favorite one. It's a drug panic.
Kathryn (59:31)
It's so-
At all. Right, exactly. It should be. It should be, but it's not. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. Huge eye roll.
Gina (59:51)
So in 1969, there was this big panic going on about drugs, specifically things like LSD, weed, all that kind of stuff. And there were also claims that kids were getting high by injecting themselves with a combination of peanut butter and mayonnaise.
Kathryn (1:00:12)
Wait, I think I've heard of this.
Gina (1:00:13)
I
had never heard about this before.
Kathryn (1:00:16)
I'm like, it's, sorry, I like just escaped from my microphone. It's, You just unlocked a memory. I didn't know I knew this, but hearing you say that, I'm experiencing something I've experienced before. was I the peanut butter? No, that's wild. Yeah, because that was, what year was that?
Gina (1:00:29)
Were you the kid doing peanut butter?
like 69.
Kathryn (1:00:41)
Was that around like, or badness? When that came out?
Gina (1:00:43)
So I looked this up,
I thought the same thing. Reefer Madness was in the 30s, but very much same energy. Like they thought that like weed would drive you insane and things like that.
Kathryn (1:00:48)
Okay.
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Gina (1:00:56)
this was such a big thing. It showed up in Senate committee reports. ⁓ Narcotics Bureau officials like went on record talking about this. And we also know that at some point, Richard Nixon had this on his desk. It was in his presidential papers.
So papers, like media starts latching onto this. It becomes this whole big fucking thing. And so they start to interview experts about this when they were investigating it. And just some of the quotes from them are so funny because you can just feel the exasperation. Some of them were kind of like, yeah, maybe you might do that because it could make you feel high because it cuts off circulation to your brain, I guess. But a lot of them were like,
Kathryn (1:01:13)
classic.
you
Yeah.
Gina (1:01:40)
kids aren't doing this, they would fucking die. Like there's no way this is something that's happening. So either way, people kind of stopped talking about it by the time 1970 hit. So it was like a blink and you miss it very quick panic. But the the modern interpretation of this weird little thing now is we kind of think that someone started this as a rumor, like as a prank, and people just were so panicked about drugs that they latched on to it. ⁓
Kathryn (1:02:02)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, probably.
I'm sure that's probably what happened. Someone probably didn't even, I bet someone didn't even mean to start this rumor. They probably said it as like a joke, like, oh, kids are doing blah, blah, blah. And then it's like some mom heard it and was like, no, Jimmy! Yeah.
Gina (1:02:17)
Yeah.
Someone was like, what? Put down the
jiff. Yeah. So yeah, that's my scary on top.
Kathryn (1:02:28)
That's wild.
Wow, that was interesting. I loved Mass Panic Month. Thank you for bringing that back. That was so much fun. I loved those episodes. Yeah.
Gina (1:02:36)
Me too. That was a really, really, yeah. It was a really interesting month.
I still, I think about the Satanic Panic episodes at least once a day.
Kathryn (1:02:45)
You know what's so funny? I used to think about this atypical panic every day until that I did those episodes and now I'm like, I'm done. I never need to talk about it again.
Gina (1:02:49)
You got it all out of your sister.
You've closed that chapter in your life.
Kathryn (1:02:57)
Yeah, that was the, that was April me. I'm June me now, or July. Where are we? I don't know. No clue. Yeah, thank you. That was super interesting.
Gina (1:03:01)
No fucking clue. Thank you for the story. Can't wait until the next one. And until then, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (1:03:20)
and keep it creepy.
