96: Billy the Axeman
Gina (00:10)
And the episode starts… Now! Welcome to I Scream You Scream your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories,
Kathryn (00:15)
Ha ha ha.
Gina (00:17)
mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Gina.
Kathryn (00:20)
And I'm Kathryn.
Gina (00:21)
And in September, we're telling each other stories about axe murders while we eat some praline ice cream. If you already know us, welcome back. And if you want to see more from us each month, go on over and join us on Patreon. Link is in the show notes. Today's episode is sponsored by Clobear Money Coach. If you want tons and tons of money, you can totally do that. You should probably just invest
Kathryn (00:41)
Yeah.
Gina (00:41)
some of it so it can grow. If you're not sure how to do that, CloBare can help you out. on over to get lazynow.com. But until then, grab a spoon and let's take it.
Kathryn (00:50)
Yay!
we have to rate our ice cream today.
Gina (00:54)
We do. Axe Murder Month came and went at about the speed I was guessing it would. There were a lot of
Kathryn (01:00)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (01:02)
harsh harsh stories. And I I'm assuming we're gonna have another tough one today, but I don't know.
Kathryn (01:08)
I was gonna say this one's not better. I
I did try to try to make it a little it's a little it's not as detailed, I will say, in the violence. And that's the best I can give you all.
but at least we had this delectable ice cream.
Gina (01:23)
I don't even have chocolate today. I'm just eating vanilla ice cream. It's I've just I've
Kathryn (01:27)
Ha ha.
Gina (01:27)
given up. It's I give myself a one. I've really not tried very hard at all with this month.
Kathryn (01:34)
You know what though? we chose the entire year's worth of flavors when we were drunk in the middle of the night in New Orleans. And so
Gina (01:41)
Yeah.
Kathryn (01:45)
literally, I think the reason we chose praline is because I was like looking around the room and I saw the box of pralines you got me and we were like, Praline, let's do praline. I'm pretty sure that's
Gina (01:54)
Perfect. Yep.
Kathryn (01:55)
what it was. So not an easy flavor to come by.
Gina (02:00)
Nor did I particularly try, I'll be honest with you.
Kathryn (02:03)
You
know what? Who tries in September?
Gina (02:07)
Max.
Kathryn (02:08)
September is a time for rest, So
Gina (02:10)
Me
not searching for praline ice cream was actually a form of self care, and I won't apologize for
Kathryn (02:15)
Yes.
Gina (02:15)
that.
Kathryn (02:16)
You shouldn't. Absolutely.
Gina (02:17)
How's your
is it bluebell? Blue yes.
Kathryn (02:20)
Bluebell. Yes. Which
I have to say, when we were talking about the brand name Bluebell, when I was listening back to that edit, boy were we a mess. We were like going through all of the words we could think of that had the word blue in it. And finally we were like, Bell, it was blue bell. Not realizing that's like where we started. So to everyone out there, you know what? Not sorry. You're welcome for that weirdness. But anyway, yes, it was Bluebell ice cream.
this is only my second time having it. So I too just had, I don't even know if I had ice cream the first two weeks. I think I was just eating the chocolate. like the pralines that you gave me. I did say that this was a five, but upon further reflection, I'm give this particular ice cream a four.
Just because the first bite that I took was delectable. The ice cream is so, so good. But the first bite I took had pretty much the majority of the bits that were in the entire dish.
Gina (03:16)
Mm.
Kathryn (03:18)
So it was like the perfect amount of praline pecan pieces that are in the ice cream and the ice cream itself. So if the bit ratio was higher, it would be a perfect five.
Still good, still a really good rating. I it just I jumped the gun on calling it a perfect, perfect five. I'm disregarding the first two weeks because those were also good chocolates, but not technically, you know what? No, it technically is the theme because
The theme was just praline. Didn't say praline
Gina (03:51)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (03:51)
ice cream. I'm giving you a three instead of a one. I'm I'm bumping you up
Gina (03:54)
I'm giving you a five.
Kathryn (03:57)
to three. Okay, good.
Gina (03:59)
promoted. thank you.
I wonder if we should explain that the reason we're rating our ice cream now and not in the next episode is because the next episode is a fifth Tuesday. I feel like we haven't explained
Kathryn (04:11)
yeah.
Gina (04:11)
how palette cleansers worked in a while.
Kathryn (04:14)
Yeah, we did once upon a time and then we just s it disregarded it. But yeah, palette cleanser next week.
Gina (04:21)
Yeah. so if
there comes a month that has five Tuesdays in it, we use the fifth Tuesday as a palate cleanser. So just a little break where we do something a little bit more chill, a little bit less structured, a little bit of drinking, sometimes, So we'll see. Yeah.
Kathryn (04:35)
Mm-hmm. You'll see how it goes.
Gina (04:39)
I do think we have to talk about the fact that we have both now seen Practical Magic 2
Kathryn (04:43)
Yes, we should. don't know how to even talk about this because I don't want to give spoilers to people
Gina (04:47)
I know.
Kathryn (04:49)
because we both went opening weekend.
Gina (04:51)
For what my opinions are, if you're someone listening to this who has not seen the movie and wants to and doesn't like spoilers,
Maybe just like fast forward through the next two minutes. I'll put a
Kathryn (05:00)
Yeah, okay.
Gina (05:01)
a timestamp in the show notes of when it's safe to re-engage. So start skipping ahead now. So
Kathryn (05:08)
Okay, so
what are your spoiler thoughts?
Gina (05:10)
Really enjoyed the movie, loved it. I wish the two younger sisters had more time on screen together. I really missed the element
Kathryn (05:17)
my god, yes.
Gina (05:18)
of their relationship building. I feel like it focused so much on Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman, which is so much fun. And I did miss that. And it was great to see those characters again. But I really wanted the two new sisters to form their own strong bond like they had, and I completely missed that. And I also don't think I needed some
Kathryn (05:34)
Yeah.
Gina (05:34)
of the romance subplots.
Kathryn (05:37)
I agree. I really loved the story, but but that's relative to the fact that I knew I was not gonna love it as much as the first one. If you go in trying to recreate feeling we all had in 1998, you're gonna hate this movie, I think. Cause like just with any three decades later.
reboot or sequel or whatever, it's not the same, and it's never going to be the same. So I'm happy that I went in with those expectations because I I think a lot of people are gonna do the whole, like, my god, it's not the original, blah blah blah. It's like, it's very much not. Like, you're right. I did miss I missed that too. Like, I really was upset that they didn't have more of that, but I will say
To like devil's advocate just for my own self. The thing that I really loved about this one
Like the first one is very much a sister movie. Like, whatever that means to you, whether it's like biological sister or like best friend sister, like is very much a sister movie. This one I felt was, I think they did a good job of making it. It's not just for sisters. It's for daughters and mothers. I feel like aunties had a bigger moment in this one, like auntie-niece
Gina (06:45)
Mm.
Kathryn (06:46)
relationship, I felt was real strong in this one. loved that. I love that that.
Came through pretty strong for me. But I do feel like the sister thing, like, I don't know, they kind of just were like it was kind of an afterthought. And I wish that it was a bigger thought, but but I loved I mean I loved the vibes. The house, I think, had her moment.
Gina (07:07)
Yeah.
Kathryn (07:08)
The garden, this movie's really about that garden, I would say.
Had no idea that we crossed an ocean. I like the settings and scenes and all that were chef's kiss. I loved like visually everything about it.
Gina (07:24)
Yeah, I didn't know so much of it took place in England. I got really excited. And then during that
Kathryn (07:27)
Neither did I. I had no idea.
Gina (07:29)
scene where the guy pours the most disgusting looking custard onto that pie, I was cracking up in the theaters 'cause I was like, that looks fucking vile.
Kathryn (07:37)
Wait, can we talk about that scene? Because I literally was gonna mention this and I was like, Kathryn don't fixate on this pie scene, but I have to talk about how awful this pie scene was. When she is scooping their pie slices out of the fucking
Gina (07:49)
my God, yes.
Kathryn (07:50)
pan, I I wanted to leave the fucking theater.
I understand how filming works. I understand that you only have so many props to work with. She probably scooped that same piece of pie like 20 times. I don't care. You're a multi-million dollar project. Get a new pie.
It looked awful. It was awful. I was so offended by the pie slice. I'm so sorry. That was the worst part of the movie for me. That pie scene.
Gina (08:12)
Well who scoops
pie from the middle? That's insane. And then you leave the best little
Kathryn (08:15)
From the middle And she just left the
Gina (08:19)
crusty bit on the end. I was horrified. Sandy,
Kathryn (08:22)
I was so upset.
Gina (08:23)
come on.
Kathryn (08:24)
Zero stars for that scene. Awful. What an awful
Gina (08:28)
He
Kathryn (08:28)
scene. my god. I w I literally was like sitting like this in the theater. I was like looking around. Is no one else perplexed by this? We went at 2:45 on a Thursday, so there were very few people actually there. But I'm looking around like, ladies, we're all seeing this, right? Like what the hell?
Gina (08:45)
Hm.
Kathryn (08:46)
So awful. But the movie I enjoyed. It was just could have done without that scene, personally.
Gina (08:51)
That one specific
scene should have been cut. Yeah.
Kathryn (08:53)
That one scene is blacklisted as far as I am concerned.
Gina (08:58)
Yeah, I will put it in the pile with Hocus Pocus two of reboots that of course were not as good as the original, but I enjoyed nonetheless.
Kathryn (09:06)
I will say maybe a hot take, loved Hocus Pocus sequel better than this one, for sure.
Gina (09:13)
I think that's fair.
Kathryn (09:15)
Alright, well you wanna talk about sad things? Yeah. Alright.
Gina (09:19)
Yeah, yes, yes. What do you got today?
Kathryn (09:25)
You know what guys, it's the end. This is the last one. Like I said, I'm not gonna go into details of specific crimes. mostly because I'm gonna be talking about a string of axe murders in this one and
We're just we're not going into specific details on each individual one's i each individual crime. I'm not going to do that to you. this is sort of a continuation from episode ninety-four. when we were talking about those murders. It's not absolutely imperative that you know the whole
Villisca murder story in order to understand this episode. But if you have the time, I do recommend going back to listen to that one first so that you have all the additional context that I'm going to be leaving out of this one. Because this week we're going into greater detail about a man.
Who was first identified in 1911 as Billy the Axeman. Thing is, Billy the Axeman doesn't actually exist. Allow me to explain. This was the name that the press gave to the person suspected of committing a string of axe murders throughout America between 1911 and 1912.
Whoever this was had a very specific MO. First and foremost, he always used the blunt end of a heavy object. Most commonly an axe, as was used in Villisca, but sometimes it was something like a metal rod or pipe, essentially just a weapon of convenience. It was just always blunt and heavy.
Whatever house he targeted, he would always get everybody on the premises. There was it didn't matter who they were or like what their deal was. It was very clear that he was never going after one particular family. It was if he hit up a house, everyone fell victim to him. number three, the house would be completely sealed or locked after he left. And I don't think I go
Into detail in this later in the episode. Maybe it might come around again. I don't remember if I included it in this, but that is one thing from the Villisca episode that kind of perplexed people. Just how could you know the house all be locked up if he left? basically, we would later find out that he often would jam doors and windows to make it appear that they were locked.
so that people weren't sure if he left or whatever. Basically just to confuse people. but it wasn't always that they were left locked. He he was very smart in the way that he like staged things. So he always made it appear like the door was locked from the inside, no matter what.
Number, I don't know what number I'm on. It doesn't matter. Next thing that he did was the victims' faces and bodies would always be covered with sheets or blankets or whatever he could find, along with windows, mirrors. And if there was a phone on the premises, that would also be covered as well.
There was usually nothing stolen in the houses that he would hit up, and anything that was stolen on the rare occasion that it was, it was usually something very little and something that was just simply something he needed to leave the premises, like, you know, change for ticket to the train or a pair of sh clean shoes or something like that. It was never that he was breaking into this house to steal anything of actual value. then
One thing that we did not talk about in the last episode, that this one does get a little heavier, is one of the most puzzling details in his MO was the fact that in the majority of his crimes, one of the female victims would be staged to create the question of whether there was sexual assault or not. But upon further investigation, there never actually was. So this is.
Again, kind of a weird what the hell actually was your intent or reason for doing this. just as a little throwback again to the Villisca case, in this case it would have been Lena because she was the one that was not investigators assumed she was not asleep at the time of the murders because she was a little bit sideways.
And there was a defensive wound on her arm. And it was posited at one point that the defensive wound could have potentially not actually been a defensive wound, but something that was put there to make it seem like it was, because her nightgown was also pulled up over her waist,
Which many concluded could have happened during a struggle, but it's likely that she was staged that way by him. But they did investigate, they did do an examination on her, and it was clear that there was no sexual assault. So that's kind of when people were like, okay, maybe this was just a coincidence and she was flailing and just landed this way or whatever. But based on the pattern of the other cases where there was often a woman staged in a specific way, but when they
examined her, there was no assault. It it was perplexing to people. Like no one really understood why someone would do this. And I think that that is one of the reasons that the Reverend in the last episode was such a heavy suspect is because he did have severe mental illness. And it's one of those things that no one could really figure out why someone would do this unless there was something. Obviously something was wrong with them. I I don't want to phrase it that way, but like
An
actual severe mental illness. these are all very specific details that are very unlikely to be played out by different people. Th these are like incredibly niche things that wouldn't happen in just your average ex murder. So people did start to connect the string of crimes together.
I'd say relatively quickly compared to the years that these were happening, the early 20th century, word doesn't spread super fast, but we'll get into that a little more later. There were some differences between the cases. For example, he would occasionally set the house on fire after he was done. And in several instances, he would pile up the bodies instead of just leaving them where they had died, as was the case in Vallisca.
The piling of the bodies and the lighting the houses on fire did kind of indicate that he would commit these crimes at a point in the night where he could kind of take his time. And perhaps the difference between each of the cases just kind of depended on when he showed up, how long it took.
etc. etc. because that brings us to one of the most important connections between all of these cases. And that is the fact that all of his victims lived very close to train tracks. So it is possible that how much he could quote unquote get done during each crime depended just simply on when the train was arriving compared to when he got done with the crime. Like it's perfectly possible the only reason
the more a family in Villisca wasn't piled and their house wasn't set on fire is because he needed to catch the train. Remember his meal was just left cold on the dinner table. It's possible like he heard the train whistle blowing and had to bounce.
Gina (17:02)
That is a wildly casual reason to have to forego piling bodies and setting out gotta catch my train Jesus.
Kathryn (17:09)
Oopsie, here she comes. Yeah, it's
sick. I know, I know.
Gina (17:14)
Yeah, this whole thing is very creepy.
Kathryn (17:16)
I
know, it's very well, yeah, it gets creepier. So we don't know whether this was someone like hopping cargo trains or sneaking on, you know, a passenger train or whatever, or if he was someone genuinely traveling on the up and up, like maybe he was a businessman traveling through the country and would just stop in these small towns.
you know, get the job done and then bounce. We don't know. I think more on this later. I think it's well, more on that later. Never mind. I'm like, this is one where like we could talk about this in circles for days and days and days because this is very much like a cork board with string type of episode. So forgive me, I'm gonna be bouncing around a lot.
Gina (18:03)
Ha
Kathryn (18:04)
I will say the timing and location of each crime did match how long it would take for someone to
You know, commit a crime, hop on the train, l lay low for some time, somewhere for a little bit, and then be on his merry way to the next train stop for his next victim. So one thing that people know for sure is this was some type of train traveler. The first case that people do attribute to the classic Billy the Axeman theory was the Hill family on June 9th, 1911, and they lived in
Ardenwald,
Oregon. And I do just want to call out this happened exactly one year from the Villisca case, which was the last murder in this particular string. So I just want to call that out right off the bat because that's another thing that adds to kind of the weird specific calculated way this guy operated because it was exactly he did this for one calendar year, basically.
An axe was found at the scene at the Hill family home and it had all of the pillars that would become the list of things that Billy did. You death by blunt object, sheeps sheeps, Gina, I can't.
Gina (19:22)
Sheep everywhere.
Kathryn (19:23)
There were just sheep all over
the fucking place.
Gina (19:27)
So he likes trains and he's a farmer.
Kathryn (19:30)
I do have to call out I am sick and I'm doing my best. Okay.
Gina (19:34)
You're doing a really good
job.
Kathryn (19:39)
so yeah, death by blunt object, sheets, sheets covering everything, et cetera, et cetera. It is believed that the murders happened around midnight because it was around that time that the neighbor's dog started going absolutely ballistic for apparently no reason. he just woke up in the middle of the night and just started barking and growling and scratching like crazy, and no one could figure out.
What the issue was. Like it could could have been anything. They had no idea what was going on because they couldn't hear anything until eventually the dog just stopped and that was that. He was like fine for the rest of the night. So that's really the main thing that people had to go off of to identify what time this happened.
and there really there really wasn't much information on this. Like I said, this was the first in a string of murders. So at the time it was kind of just a random weird thing, and nothing really came of it. But then exactly one month after the Hill family murders on July 9th in Rainier Washington, which is just about like a six-ish-hour train ride directly south, a man named Archie and his wife.
Nettie
were both murdered the exact same way, and the house was in the exact same state as the murders up in Oregon. So these two were connected pretty quickly. Unlike the first murder, there was a conviction for this one. A man named George Wilson, who was Archie's foreman at work, he was found guilty of the crime. But there were numerous people who always questioned the verdict. It was kind of a classic, I don't want to call it botched.
But it very much felt to people like investigators were just trying to close the case. It was like we have to make the people happy. We gotta find a guy. Let's choose this one. Great, case closed, you're welcome. Not necessarily this is the right guy and he's behind bars, everyone's safe. so as far as a lot of people are concerned, these two Pacific Northwest murders were quote unquote solved.
Even though the Hill murders were technically not solved, the crimes were related enough that they were like, all right, we got this guy who probably did this crime. So it's similar to that one. So that's probably solved too. But like other people were like, What? Like that doesn't make any sense. so the as far as the official books were concerned, case was closed.
But a couple months later, a string of very similar murders continued in Colorado Springs, indicating that there was either a copycat or more likely, our guy Billy was still out there and he was starting to ramp things up.
In September of 1911, two families were killed in one night. This is the first time that this has happened in this string of murders. It was the Burnham family and the Wayne family.
They
lived right next door to each other, and their houses were literally just like a house or two down from the train track. So we they were like right there. At first, people were absolutely convinced that it was Mr. Burnham, the father of one of the families, because he was the only remaining member of the family that was not killed. But he wasn't one of the victims because he simply wasn't home that night.
Which yes still sounds kind of sketch, but the reason he wasn't at home is because as with any other Ice Cream You Scream episode that takes place at the beginning of the 20th century, I would be remiss if I didn't mention tuberculosis.
Gina (24:24)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (24:26)
There was a sanatorium in Colorado Springs, and you know, that's where people obviously would stay to be treated. This was a location.
Around that time, that doctors from all over the country would send people. We talked about this in Stanley Hotel. Like Colorado Air was like Chef's Kiss for TB
Gina (24:46)
Mm.
Kathryn (24:47)
patients, basically. That's where everyone was getting sent. So both of these families were in town because of TB, because members of their family were being treated at the sanitari sanitarium. Sanatorium and
Mr. Burnham was a patient there. Like he was literally admitted to the hospital. So, like, yes, it's technically possible that he could have snuck out and murdered two families, and one being his own, and then like snuck back in in the middle of the night. But the man had TB. Like wielding an axe and murdering several people in one night is not exactly something that you would expect from a tuberculosis patient.
Gina (25:32)
I don't remember reading that in the list of symptoms, no,
Kathryn (25:34)
Right.
And like he would have needed to get past like a lot of people. You know, there's obviously staff at a hospital. I don't know. It just it was one of those things where he was the only suspect because they didn't have any other suspects. He, you know, it that case also went cold. There was no one ever convicted of that case.
I know. I know. And you're a suspect, exactly. What a weird experience.
Gina (25:56)
Poor guy, having T B and then coming home, and your family and your neighbors have all been mur and you're a suspect. That's awful.
Kathryn (26:05)
That's heartbreaking.
One week after the Colorado murders, the Dawson family was killed in Monmouth, Illinois. And a few interesting things happened during this case that stuck out compared to the others. A few weeks after the murders, a flashlight was found, which honestly was astonishing to me just because I didn't even realize that flashlights existed then, but
They did, for anyone else who's also confused, they were invented in eighteen ninety nine. I don't know did you know that?
Gina (26:38)
Huh, no, I did not. I always assumed they were a later on thing.
Kathryn (26:42)
Yeah,
that feels super fake.
Anyway, yeah, flashlights did exist. and they found one on the property. I think like a fence was being removed or something, and they found it like in
The dirt and the flashlight had Colorado Springs written on it, along with the date September fourth, nineteen eleven. So when this hit the press, journalists immediately noticed and connected this to the discussion about a serial killer on the loose because they were connecting the Monmouth case to Colorado Springs. After Monmouth, he hit up Ellsworth, Kansas, about a month later.
On
October 15th. And this is where the Showman family murders happened. It had all of the same pillars as the other cases. But in this one, we got confirmation that he very likely did hop a train. So it's no longer possible that it's just some guy traveling on the up and up because detectives were searching around with their bloodhounds, trying to find him, and they tracked his scent all the way to.
The intersection of two train tracks. and that that's that was very common for train hoppers because trains always slow down at intersections. So that's the easiest spot for those who want to know how to start hopping trains. That is the best spot to get on because you're far away from the actual station. So people can't catch you, but they are going slow enough that you can actually get on. Just a little tidbit for those curious on how to get started.
There was an attempted break-in that night at the city marshal's house. so basically Ellsworth's peace officer, if you will, throwback to the last episode. His name was Morris Merritt, and he noticed that the screen on his window was missing and it looked like someone had tried to essentially pry the window open. Like there were markings that looked like someone was like trying to get in.
Worth noting that he was only a few houses away from the showman's, and of course, one or two houses down from the tracks. So this appeared to be an attempted double, not double murder. What is it called? Well, yeah, I guess double murder case. There was more than two people, but you know what I'm saying. Okay. This appeared to be a double murder. but Morris woke up at a certain point in the night, so it's possible that when he woke up,
the guy heard him and decided to bounce or just he couldn't get in and like we said before was running out of time. So he decided to bounce.
When the press was reporting on this case, we were at the point where it was no longer speculation that these crimes.
were
connected. They were like danger, danger, there's a serial killer on the loose. It was very clear to the press that these crimes were connected. And this is when we first get the name Billy the Axeman. Like this is when he gets his official code name or whatever listed in the press. up. Unfortunately, investigators paid no attention
To this proposed connection, and they continued to just look at local suspects for each of these crimes. So all of the different jurisdictions are like, you know, well, no, what if it was Mr. Burnham? And what if it was so-and-so who lives down the street? And nobody is like willing to acknowledge that you gotta work with each other to try to find this guy. Everyone was zeroing in on just whoever was the first one we were pointing our fingers at.
Which is very annoying. And honestly, probably the main reason this crime never ended up getting solved. All of these crimes never ended up getting solved. and the same reason so many serial killer crimes go unnoticed for so long today, like that's still a problem to this day, like jurisdictions not working with each other. But imagine in nineteen eleven when it's already hard to talk to people, there's not like the internet and people
Gina (30:47)
Yeah.
Kathryn (30:48)
like nosing in. It was literally just
The press was basically like true crime talk. Like back when, like, do you know what I'm saying? Like that was that was like
Gina (30:57)
A hundred percent, yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (30:59)
they were like, Hello, like, are you not seeing these clues? And the investigators were like, Where? I don't see anything, like completely
Gina (31:05)
Ha ha ha.
Kathryn (31:06)
not paying attention.
Gina (31:08)
Yeah. It's reminding me of Israel Keyes, the one who he
Kathryn (31:13)
Which one was that?
Gina (31:14)
modern-ish serial killer r went all around the country killing people in different jurisdictions. And that's why he part of the reason why he never got caught is because he would rent a
Kathryn (31:24)
Yeah.
Gina (31:24)
car in one state, drive it hundreds of miles away to a different state, and then kill someone. And he was really careful about his digital footprint.
And so to your point about the amount of effort
it takes to do that now with things like traceable credit cards and plane tickets and all sorts of things versus back then when it's literally just hop on a train at an intersection. Like they
Kathryn (31:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (31:45)
really didn't stand a chance of catching them, to be honest.
Kathryn (31:47)
No, even just beyond digital, like pre-DNA, and this was when they were still manually comparing fingerprints and stuff like that. You know, there was certainly no technology that could do that. And also that's something I haven't mentioned, but another thing that he would do is there were never any fingerprint prints.
Left at the crime scenes at all. So it was very clear that he was thinking ahead because even that was kind of a new technology. Not everyone knew that that was a thing that police did. but he always wore gloves or s would wipe things down or something like that. And he never slipped up, no one ever found any fingerprints. So that's really the only thing anyone had to go off of. Fingerprints and eyewitness accounts was like how people figured things out. So, like to your point, if you're moving all over the country.
What are the odds you're ever gonna find someone? Pretty much zero.
There were two more murder cases in this particular string. the next one was in, I don't know how to say it, Paola, Pa Paola, Kansas. Just a short train ride from Ellsworth. But what's interesting is so the previous one in Ellsworth happened in October. And this one, a very short distance away, didn't happen until June 5th, 1912.
So
there was a big stretch of time where he was just kind of laying low.
that's pretty notable just because up until this point he had been moving a pretty standard cadence between murder locations. So it's weird that you'd get to a point where you could do two towns in two days and he waited so many months. So it is likely that he was paying attention to the press and he saw that they were
Catching on that this was a string because up until that point he had the luxury of these people not paying attention to anything outside their jurisdiction. But when the press started talking about it, that was when he slowed down for a second.
As with the previous case, there was an attempted break-in at another house in town. So it was clear that he was trying to move up from one each night to two each night. The attempted break-in happened at the Longmire residence, but someone woke up.
To the sound of his break in. I think it was like he broke the window or something like that, which is not like him. So that may have been kind of a source of like panic. It could be one of those things where he was starting to slip up. He's really trying to get two in one night, or maybe he was just trying to force the window open and it broke on accident. We do not know. All of that is to say, someone heard the broken class and woke up in the middle of the night. He heard them up and about in the house and decided to flee.
So this brings us to Villisca just a few days later, on June 9th. again, go back and listen to that episode if you want more details. This would be the last and most infamous in the string of murders by Billy the Axeman is all well and good, but who the fuck is Billy the Axeman? Sorry. We still do not know.
Gina (34:50)
Ha ha
Kathryn (34:53)
but there is a
Pretty
long suspect list that has been narrowed narrowed down to a few key potential people that could have been doing all of this. it's basically the list of people I already talked about in the Villisca episode, minus the local guy. I don't remember his name, Fred. Son the one who became the senator. He's pretty much the only one that was the local one. Everyone else was a suspect for not just Villisca, but all of these murders.
First, I'm going to mention a man named Henry Lee Moore because he is one of the big ones from Villisca specifically, to the point where we're definitely gonna get some hate comments on our Villisca episode because I didn't mention him. But you all better go back and delete those now because I'm mentioning him now. So fret not. Yeah. Apologize to me now.
Gina (35:43)
Eat your words.
Kathryn (35:49)
So Henry was convicted in 1913. So after all this happened, for the murder of his mother and grandmother. he had a record. He had previously been convicted of forgery.
And he was also known as kind of just a strange guy. He had a casual habit of visiting local morgues. And when asked about it, he simply said that he liked looking at the bodies. So
Gina (36:14)
Mm.
Kathryn (36:15)
that's not great. He was also known to have a lot of pen pals, shall we say. He wrote let love letters to a lot of women. Not sure how he got connected to any or all of them, but there was one in particular named.
Queenie, who lived in Colombia, which is where he was originally from, and he professed his love for her. He she rejected him because he did not have a house of his own. So she was like, How are you supposed to take care of me if you don't have a home? Because he lived with his mom and his grandma. So he wrote back to her saying, No worries, my mom is leaving the house to me. We are all set after she dies. So he kills his mom.
Gina (36:57)
my god.
Kathryn (37:00)
I know. that's how he chose to deal with that. it's
Gina (37:05)
It's not funny.
Kathryn (37:06)
not funny, but like it's it's not funny at all. It's just like, what? Do you know what I mean? Like what? Yeah.
Gina (37:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (37:17)
So yeah, he shortly after this exchange, he was convicted, as I said. He
murdered both his mother and his grandmother so that he could have his house for his potential future bride. he also worked near the railroad, so it was natural for people to connect him to these railroad my god railroad crimes throughout the country. But honestly, besides the use of an axe and the fact that he had access to a railroad, there really wasn't much
Else connecting him to these other crimes. It, you know, it was discussed how how comfortable he was with an axe when he murdered his mom, et cetera, et cetera. But unfortunately, there there really wasn't much connecting him to the crime. He he, of course, was convicted of the murder of of his mother and grandmother, but the rest of these crimes, it just was a stretch, basically.
Many people said that he looked like someone they saw in town around the time of the murders. Even Mr. Stillinger, the father of Lena and Ina from the Villisca case, said that he looked very much like someone who used to work for him. So he actually went to pr like, he didn't go to prison. He went to prison to see if he was him. Like he visited the guy in prison, is what I'm trying to say. and it was like, yeah, you could make the argument.
That they ki he kinda looked like this guy Stillinger knew, but he also just looked like some average guy, you know? Like he had brown hair, average build, average feet. Like it just wasn't it wasn't reliable enough to definitively say that was the guy. You know what I mean? Classic, just eyewitness, whatever. Yeah, exactly.
Gina (39:04)
Hundred percent.
Kathryn (39:07)
Another suspect.
Is a man named Lovey Mitchell who was arrested for the Monmouth murders. One detail that I intentionally left out before, because I'm answering it now, is the flashlight that was found didn't just say Colorado Springs and the date, it also said the word Lovey. So people were real quick to point their finger at a local man named Lovey Mitchell. And I will say this also was dismissed pretty quickly.
it didn't pretty quickly relatively, it didn't go all the way to the jury trial or anything like that. Because the only thing connecting this particular man named Lovey was this flashlight. And it it seems like one of those things where it's like, okay, well, that's his name on the flashlight. It's gotta be him. But keep in mind, if a murderer is able to take the train from
Colorado all the way to Illinois, so too can hundreds of other people. And Lovey
Gina (40:10)
Mm.
Kathryn (40:11)
is not an uncommon name for this time period. what it comes down to in this case, Lovey's accusation was really just a case of racism, it seemed, because Lovely, lovely, sorry, because Lovey was a black man and it was literally just some random white guy in town was like, Lovey, I know a Lovey, that's him.
Gina (40:33)
Okay.
Kathryn (40:34)
You know what I mean? Yeah.
Gina (40:34)
Yeah.
Kathryn (40:35)
Yeah, there was no other proof whatsoever that he committed even the local crimes, let alone all of the crimes in this string committed by Billy the Axeman whoever he is. We just know it's not Lovey. Another one of the main suspects expands the discussion about Billy the Axeman pretty significantly. His name was Paul, I think it's Mueller or Mueller.
And
he was first accused of the murder of the Newton family in Massachusetts in 1898. This is significantly before the string of murders attributed to Billy the Axeman that started in 1911. And it raises the question, when exactly did whoever commit these murders start?
this brings us to what is known as the modern Billy the Axeman theory. What we were just discussing, just the span of one year is the classic Billy the Axeman theory. This is the corkboard string thing that I'm talking about.
Gina (41:34)
I'll hold on to my butt.
Kathryn (41:42)
Yeah. and it it is just the fact that he is responsible for like significantly more crimes than we originally thought. So the f the classic theory states that Billy, whoever he is, was responsible for 30-ish murders, like the murder of 30-ish people in the early 1910s. But the modern theory posits that he could have been the perpetrator and
responsible for upwards of 90 axe murders committed across decades. People even go so far as to wonder if he could have been responsible for the Borden family murders back in the early 1890s. and not just specifically Billy the Axeman, but people are pointing to this
Paul Mueller guy specifically.
I I struggle with this broadened theory just because we're kind of getting into the realm of one man committing every axe murder at the turn of the century. And there were things, that seemed very familiar.
for all of these crimes. So, you know, part of the modern theory is the 1911 to 1912 murders were just a more, I'm gonna say, like sophisticated and like tightened up operation of what this guy was doing earlier than that. Like he, you know, took notes and workshopped and really perfected his craft in the 1910s, if you will. but
I
will also say that this modern theory wasn't posited until 2017, which is over a century after all of this happened. This is very much the type of thing that, like, we're talking about this now. Like, we're talking about, like, okay, that crime was never solved. What are the other crimes that have never been solved? And are they related? People are noticing these little pieces that are a little bit similar and being like, same guy.
I don't personally necessarily believe that all of these crimes were related or done by the same person. Is it possible? Yeah, but I just I think that the string in the 1910s were definitely related. don't think we know who did it.
and I don't necessarily believe that they are related to like going as far back as like a Lizzie Borden. Like I just I think that that's
Gina (44:11)
Yeah.
Kathryn (44:12)
just too much of a stretch.
I
think that people make the connection between all of these axe murders around, like I said, the turn of the century because they underestimate just how common owning an axe truly was. I think it's like, you know, that's barbaric and who would do that and blah blah blah. It's gotta be the same guy. To us nowadays, the majority of people have literally never even seen an axe, let alone wielded one for any reason whatsoever.
But back then it was as common as owning a set of kitchen knives. Like literally everyone owned an axe. And I know we've talked about this. I'm kind of just wrapping things up for Axe Murder Month. But like people needed firewood and people were slaughtering their own cattle. Like there was a million reasons why someone would need an axe around this time. It truly was just a weapon of convenience that can be difficult for us to wrap our heads around now.
But around then it was super duper common. while it might seem like an outrageous and niche type of crime, I do think that it's perfectly plausible that we just had a bunch of axe murderers wandering around in the early 20th century. there is a really great book that I do want to shout out because it was like part of the reason I wanted to do an axe murderer month when we were first discussing it. It's called Whack Job. And
just did you ever read that one? I know we talked about it.
Gina (45:33)
No, I didn't.
Kathryn (45:34)
my god, it's so good. It does a great job of painting like an accurate picture of how axes have been used pretty much throughout all of history, not even just as murder weapons, but it literally explains everything I just discussed, like the prevalence and how they were used and like the difference in cultural use and all of that. It's it's super interesting and it really like shaped my understanding of why axe murder.
like was thought of and talked about back then versus how it is now. and that book is a big reason why I'm confident that I don't adhere to the modern Billy the Axeman theory. So I highly recommend it. I it's a really good book. I'll link it in the show notes. I do ascribe to the classic theory though, and like I said, I do believe that the they call it the Midwest string
Of murders, even though it didn't just happen in the Midwest. So I don't know why. I think it's just because a big clump of them were in the Midwest. I also think there's just kind of a like the turn of the century Midwestern farm vibe that people ascribe to the ex-murder vibe. I don't know. I feel like
People
just don't think of the Pacific Northwest when they think of ex-murderers. So I think that's a large that contributes largely to why people focus on the Midwest murders. but as far as who it was, honestly, I don't genuinely I don't think that anyone on the actual list that we have was him. I I feel like they all were just kind of desperate grabs, like could be him, could be him. This guy was weird, might be him.
I think whoever it was flew completely under the radar. I don't I honestly don't know if the right guy was ever even accused, let alone convicted or anything. I think he was probably just someone passing through town that no one ever noticed. and maybe he felt the fuzz closing in on him after Villisca, and that's why he either stopped or went somewhere else or changed how he did things or what he was doing. But
I don't know. don't know who he is. No one knows who he is. And if someone says they know who he is, they're lying to your face. but I do wanna know if anyone
Gina (47:54)
Mm.
Kathryn (47:56)
out there has a theory or is very confident that they know who it is. let us know. iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com I wanna know who do you think Billy the Axeman is?
Gina (48:07)
I think the the idea of how many people who committed horrible crimes
the number the the quantity that we just simply don't know about and will never know about terrifies me. Because there's
Kathryn (48:19)
yeah.
Gina (48:19)
this thing of you hear people say every now and then like
think about the people who never made the history books, who made such an impact upon the world. And like what you don't see is like behind every person who does this, there's the person doing this and blah blah blah. But there's also people that you don't see who have made the world way more horrible. And I think about
Kathryn (48:37)
Yes.
Gina (48:37)
that a lot. Like, who do we not know about that has made humanity
Kathryn (48:41)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (48:42)
way, way, way who's lowering the average? It's just so depressing.
Kathryn (48:47)
So many people. Yeah.
Gina (48:50)
But I'll rest easy knowing that this guy's probably dead by now.
Unless he made a very big discovery while on his travels.
Twenty seventeen
Kathryn (48:56)
Yeah.
Gina (48:57)
is very recent though. When you dropped that year,
Kathryn (48:59)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (48:59)
I was like, damn,
Kathryn (49:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Very much a Hindsight's like still kind of
fuzzy vision in this case, in my opinion, but we have had time to like collect all the pieces at this point. And then it was just kind of a this is the second round theory that people have added to.
Gina (49:19)
and what you were saying earlier about how people ascribe the whole Axeman
axe murder thing to like Midwest. I wonder if that is because of things like Vallisca and the idea of like yeah, like a small town,
Kathryn (49:31)
I think so, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Gina (49:34)
the kind of like we were talking about in the Mary Russell episode, like that claustrophobia of being surrounded by a small group of people and you know that one of them might have done it and that that feeling
Kathryn (49:42)
Mm.
Gina (49:43)
you get from it. But the just to draw another parallel to Israel Keys, he was originally Pacific Northwest. And so when you started talking yeah, when you started talking
Kathryn (49:51)
okay. Interesting. I didn't know that.
Gina (49:53)
about
That there's actually a lot of similarities in between the story you just told and the story of Israel Keys.
Kathryn (49:58)
Interesting.
Gina (49:59)
I recommend going down that rabbit hole when you're in a good mental space. Yeah.
Kathryn (50:01)
Yeah, I will. Hmm.
That's just so funny because Pacific Northwest I don't think of as like a, you know, violent crime. I think of like Nirvana. I don't know. I don't know what I think of. Just like, yeah,
Gina (50:13)
And like camping and stuff. Yeah.
Kathryn (50:15)
nature and coffee, pretty much.
Gina (50:18)
But
I think th the same things we're thinking about is also what makes it a really spooky and kind of scary area to be
Kathryn (50:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (50:25)
in, is that you know, there's places to hide bodies and there's a lot of uninhabited
Kathryn (50:29)
One hundred percent.
Gina (50:30)
area and there's you know what I mean?
Kathryn (50:32)
Yeah. And to to that point, just like the whole mm spookiness of it, what you're talking about as far as like the Midwestern. There's that like Midwest Gothic feel
Gina (50:41)
Mm.
Kathryn (50:42)
like with that, where it's like there's nothing as far as the eye can see and so easy to get away. that claustrophobia you're talking about has so like I think that's so on the nose. It reminds me of Pearl. Did you ever watch Pearl? I think that
Gina (50:57)
I did.
Kathryn (50:58)
was I think that was
I don't know where that I think that was Kansas. I don't know where it took place, but
it just has that vibe. It's a very like, you know, murder in a barn type movie.
Gina (51:09)
Mm, mm.
Kathryn (51:11)
sorry, spoiler. Anyway. Not
Gina (51:13)
It's okay.
Kathryn (51:16)
really. It's like in the trailer. It's fine.
Gina (51:19)
Yeah, it's fine.
Kathryn (51:19)
but yeah, same with Lizzie Borden, though. I mean, the New England is spooky in its own
Gina (51:25)
Yeah.
Kathryn (51:25)
way. So I think that, yeah, there is something to that, why certain things can
like people latch on to certain stories. I think the setting has a lot to do with it. And, you know, not to cheapen it. These are real things that happen to real people, but there is something that makes these things stick. And I think that has a big thing to do with it. But yeah.
Gina (51:43)
Yeah. Well damn
Kathryn (51:46)
Yeah. End of end of axe murder month. we're keeping, like you said, the the other topic is secret from you all until our next episode.
To hold us over until then, do you have something spooky for me?
Gina (52:01)
Do, I have a spooky little ghost story for you today. Yeah.
Kathryn (52:04)
yay, I love those.
Gina (52:06)
earlier this year, my mom came to visit me for a week and we spent some time up in York, which is very, very also haunted.
we got lots and lots of creepy and spooky stories while we were there, but today I want to tell you about what I think was the most haunted place we visited, which is called the Treasurer's House.
Kathryn (52:26)
I'm so excited for this. I've been like, I've been waiting for this. No one knows
Gina (52:27)
Me too.
Kathryn (52:30)
this, but to let our listeners know, Gina teased me when, because obviously I knew when you were with your mom. And I think I specifically asked, did you, you know, what kind of spooky stuff did you do or whatever? And she had the audacity to like hint that I would hear about it later. So I've been waiting for this.
Gina (52:48)
And there will be more. I'm not saying all of it today. So there's I'm only telling you bits and pieces of the treasurer's house. I'm gonna write the rest of it up and we're gonna put it on Patreon, and then there's more that
Kathryn (52:56)
Yeah.
Gina (52:57)
I will I will add down the line. Anyway, so
Kathryn (53:00)
Beautiful.
Gina (53:01)
the treasurer's house is a historical site, and unsurprisingly, it gets its name from being where the treasurer used to live. Shocking to all concerned, and thus is the end of my scary.
Kathryn (53:09)
Classic. What a plot twist.
Gina (53:15)
but yeah, that hasn't been the case for some centuries. The site is nearly 1,000 years old in terms of history and how long the treasurer lived there and how long it's been a historical site and a private residence and blah blah blah. And over that thousand years, it's had lots of different owners, which means it's collected plenty of ghosts along the way. But my favorite ghost story about the house happened in 1953. So pretty recent when you take a thousand years into consideration.
Kathryn (53:42)
my god. I love a mid-century spooky story. Yeah.
Gina (53:46)
It's a good one. Okay, so
at the time, a heating engineer named Harry Martindale was doing some work in the basement. I think it's like a very, very old house, so I think he was installing heating, like a boiler or something like that. And as part of that work, he was on a ladder, kind of up by the ceiling, doing his thing, when all of a sudden he hears what sounds like a trumpet blasting one note, but it's kind of muffled, so it sounds like it's maybe coming from outside. And he's like,
That's a little bit weird. Whatever things make weird sounds sometimes I'll just carry on. So he keeps working, and then he heard it again. But this time it had gotten closer. He still couldn't see anything, and he still didn't know what it was, so he just kind of kept going. And when he heard it a third time, it sounded like it was right on the opposite side of the wall of the basement. And then suddenly he saw a Roman soldier
Walk straight through
Kathryn (54:42)
He
Gina (54:42)
the wall.
Kathryn (54:43)
What the F
Gina (54:46)
This obviously freaked him the hell out, so he scrambled off the ladder and he kind of hid in a corner while he tried to make sense of what he was seeing. Because the soldier, it wasn't like he suddenly appeared. This dude walked through the wall. Like he should not have been able to do it. the soldier, this Roman soldier, just kept walking forward and walking forward until he disappeared through the opposite wall of the basement. And then more soldiers came marching in behind him.
Following the same path as the first soldier, and one of them was on a horse. So there's also a ghost horse. Mm-hmm. And so
Kathryn (55:22)
Just in a random basement?
Gina (55:24)
in a random basement, yeah. So this guy is just watching a full-on Roman military unit walk through the basement where he's trying to install a heating system right in front of his eyes. He saw, all told, about nine or ten of them. And when all was said and done,
he said that all of them shared a strange quirk. Harry couldn't see their legs from the knees down.
Kathryn (55:49)
my god,
okay, I was just thinking this 'cause you've mentioned this before about I th
Gina (55:53)
Mm-hmm. I think it was Langham Hotel, maybe?
Kathryn (55:57)
was it yeah, I think it was. It was definitely one of the hotels, I think. Yeah.
Gina (56:02)
Mm-hmm. How the placement of space over time can change how a ghost appears. Yes, yes.
Kathryn (56:07)
Cause I
was thinking I was thinking it was weird that it was in the basement. Like, wouldn't it be on the ground? But like has yeah, I don't know. That's weird. Okay. Interesting. okay.
Gina (56:16)
There there is a reason. I w I will tell you the reason.
but first I'll I'll tell you what happened next. So he did start telling people this story because he was not
Kathryn (56:25)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (56:25)
particularly educated on Roman British history. Like he was he was a normal dude. I'm not saying he was dumb. He just wasn't like, I could tell they were from
Kathryn (56:32)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (56:33)
this year and this military attachment and blah blah blah. All he this guy knew is that he saw a bunch of Roman soldiers in a basement where they shouldn't be. So he starts telling people, and for the most part.
People dismissed it, like especially academics, the people who do know their stuff about when Romans lived in York, they were like, no, this couldn't be the case. Because they said that the way Harry described the soldiers didn't make any sense. They wouldn't be wearing what he said they were wearing, which was like a green tunic. They wouldn't be carrying the weapons and the type of shield they were using, because they had a round shield on their left arm, and apparently that was not what they would have had back then.
and it also didn't sound like they were the right age. Harry described them as looking between the ages of 30 and 40, and that was kind of old for a Roman military unit at the time. And so they were like, no, that's probably not true. This guy's making it up, he must have seen something, whatever. But Harry never backed down from his story. He never compromised on a single detail. He knew what he saw. And many, many, many years later, excavations revealed that Harry was right.
Kathryn (57:41)
my god.
Gina (57:42)
They found that the treasurer's house actually sits right on top of an old Roman road. And the road, like the level of the road, was a little bit further down than the floor of the basement, so that if someone were walking on the road, their the floor of the basement would be like at their knees where those soldiers got cut off. Wild, right? So that explains.
Kathryn (57:59)
my god, I literally have chills. my god. That's so weird.
Gina (58:04)
The cut-off legs, yeah. But what I find even cooler, this blew my mind, is that the excavations also revealed that Harry was correct about his descriptions. The way the soldiers were dressed actually exactly matched soldiers who took over the Roman garrison in York in the fourth century. And defensive forces were often made up of slightly older men because they didn't need to be
Kathryn (58:25)
Mm.
Gina (58:25)
on the front line, they could be a little bit older, which is what Harry had described.
Right down to the color of their tunics and the shape of their shield, Harry had been spot on before academics knew about any of this. This was brand new
Kathryn (58:39)
Mm.
Gina (58:39)
information. So anyway, yeah, that that's my favorite ghost story for the treasurer's house. It is truly an amazing
Kathryn (58:45)
That's wild.
Gina (58:47)
place to visit. highly recommend. If anyone is up in York, you should check it out. It was absolutely one of the highlights for my mom and me. And I also think it's probably very extra gorgeous.
this time of year because they have a very nice walled garden and kind of trees and stuff. It's very pretty. yeah, isn't
Kathryn (59:01)
Ooh,
Gina (59:03)
that crazy?
Kathryn (59:05)
That's so cool. I love that validation of
Gina (59:09)
Right?
Kathryn (59:10)
after the fact. That's so weird.
Gina (59:13)
Yeah, and for the historical evidence to back it up, like, shit, no, this
Kathryn (59:15)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (59:16)
dude was a hundred percent right. We were wrong. We have learned. Like just I think that's wild.
Kathryn (59:21)
Yeah, that's cool.
Gina (59:22)
Yeah, that's the treasurer's house. if you have any spooky stories you would like to hear on the pod, feel free to just send them iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com
If you're enjoying the podcast, it would be amazing if you could leave us a review or a rating wherever you listen. And if you do want some bonus fun extras from us every month, you can feel free to join us on Patreon. Link is in the show notes. But until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (59:46)
And keep it creepy.
