86: La Llorona
Gina (00:10)
Welcome to I Scream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name's Gina.
Kathryn (00:18)
And I'm Kathryn
Gina (00:19)
And this month we are telling stories that have to do with bodies of water while we enjoy ice cream floats. If you already know us, welcome back. And feel free to join us on Patreon. Money, money, money, Kathryn. Money, money, money. Can't live with it, can't live without it. But the best thing you can do with it is invest, which is why today's sponsor is
Clobear Money Coach. If you are ready to start investing your money, but you're not really sure how to go about it, visit getlazynow.com. In the meantime, grab a spoon and let's dig in. let's do a float check in. Are you having the same as last time? Well, okay, remember when I said I was gonna do something different every time?
Kathryn (00:57)
What do you have?
Gina (01:02)
⁓ I'm not because we we still have peach ice cream. And in fairness, it does feel like we recorded the last episode about two days ago. So it's still peach with cream soda. What about you?
Kathryn (01:02)
Mm-hmm. That's fine. We're ⁓
Yeah.
Okay,
so mine is different. Still from the same bucket of sherbet though. lime sherbet with ginger ale, which I wasn't sure how I was gonna like it, but it's good. It's like ginger ale with lime, as I was hoping it would be.
Gina (01:36)
That sounds delicious and good for a stomach.
Kathryn (01:38)
It's very refreshing.
Yeah. Yeah, it's very I didn't have time to go get the whiskey ice cream.
So I'm gonna try before our next recording, I'm gonna try to go down to purple purple door, which is the place that has the whiskey ice cream, and see if I can finally do my whiskey and ginger ale float.
Gina (01:58)
Wait. I hope that when you eventually do it, I hope it's as delicious as it is in my head. It seems like it would be perfect.
Kathryn (02:04)
Girl,
me too. Like have I yammered on about this long enough? I'm like, we're finally doing floats and I'm still making everyone wait.
Gina (02:10)
It's the crescendo. It's
like you can't have the climax first thing.
Kathryn (02:17)
Honestly, I'm kind of thinking of saving it for last, just like out of masochism, but also hoping that it's as good as I think it's gonna be.
Gina (02:23)
That's a good bit.
That's a great bit. ⁓ speaking of bits, actually the movie Obsession is not a bit. I don't know how I was gonna transition that. But I I know that you saw Obsession. What did you think?
Kathryn (02:36)
Yeah.
Girl.
Boy boy, did I see obsession.
Listen, you guys.
Leave the hype. ⁓
Listen, I have never felt the way I felt while watching this movie ever in my life. It is horrendous, but not in the traditional horror movie way. It's not scary. It is just like the most unsettled I've ever felt. It's phenomenal. I I I like nothing against.
Gina (02:52)
Hehehehe
Kathryn (03:20)
everything about this movie, but her performance in this film, the main woman, I don't remember her name. I'm so sorry. Indy something. She's like the next big thing. Phenomenal. I I've never been so in awe with someone in a horror movie, literally ever. It was so impressive and so it was so fucking good. And it's very
Gina (03:39)
wow.
Kathryn (03:46)
I d don't want to say it's not scary, but again, it's not scary in the traditional way. It relies heavily on like Uncanny Valley, but not in an they don't overdo it either, which almost adds to that feeling. Wild. I have two things, two main things I wanna say. So I'm dying to talk about it, but I also don't want to give spoilers. One.
Gina (03:54)
Mm.
Okay.
Kathryn (04:08)
There was one scene where they tried to hereditary me with the whole like you don't know where she is. But your girl clocked it. I saw her immediately. The moment the camera, truly, the camera like did the shot and immediately I was like, be brave. And I like, I usually watch movies like this. Like, I usually am hiding a little bit. I was like, no, I'm I know what you're doing to me, and I'm gonna find her. Immediately I clapped her. I saw her before Phil even did.
Gina (04:14)
Mm.
Hell yeah.
Ha ha ha.
nice.
Kathryn (04:36)
⁓
so I was very proud of myself for that. The second thing I have to say, I'm not gonna give details, but there's one kill scene that I haven't never in my life experienced this amount of camaraderie with people in a movie theater. Everybody.
Was we were like hooting and hollering. It was everybody was like, Holy shit! my god! Like it was we were all like
Gina (05:00)
Yeah.
Kathryn (05:06)
Like yell we were yelling in this theater. It was banana it was so much I mean like it was so much fun, but it was one of those things where it was like it's so weird that it's so much fun because the her the scene was hor absolutely horrific. But it was so it was like I we were all in this together. Like we were all feeling all of the things. It was amazing. It was very good. It is something that I think that you like you will
Gina (05:10)
Fun.
Kathryn (05:35)
be fine seeing it, but it will like fuck you literally had to go on Instagram and look up behind the scene footage to like see them all having fun together on set so that I could fall asleep that night. Cause like genuinely I because they did such a good job and it's they used all practical effects. There's not any CGI or anything. It's all their budget was less than a million dollars.
Gina (05:45)
This isn't a documentary, right? Yeah.
That's what I was gonna say. I read something about their budget being teeny tiny.
Kathryn (06:02)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. It's already one of the highest grossing horror movies of all time. It's been out for like a month. Yeah. Yeah. It's very emb like genuinely, like I said at the beginning, believe the hype. It's so good. It's so well made. Everyone did such a good job. Yeah, highly recommend.
Gina (06:09)
Damn. Holy cow.
Okay, that's exciting. I need to add it to my
list. Did you see slash are you going to see back rooms?
Kathryn (06:28)
We have not seen it. I am going to see it. I as much as I've talked about liminal spaces lately, they do freak me out. So I do and I feel like movie theaters feel like one to me. So I feel a little scared to see it in the theaters. I do think that's one that we're gonna stream. But yeah, yeah. Yeah. that is one I'm really loving.
Gina (06:50)
Okay. Yeah. Safety of the couch.
Kathryn (06:56)
my algorithm right now because I saw this meme that was like or it was a tweet or something like it was a post that said something like this is Barbenheimer for sickles and it was a picture of obsession and backrooms. Have you seen I know me too. I just I that made me laugh out loud. I was like, yeah, this this is real. Have you seen it? Go ahead.
Gina (07:11)
my god.
my gosh. I ⁓ I have an No,
no, I'm kind of scared to see. I do want to. I'm definitely gonna see Obsession now that you have vetted it for me. And actually, speaking of vetting movies, I have another one that I want to ask you about. ⁓ because I wanna watch it, but I'm scared to. It's called Undertone. Have you seen it?
Kathryn (07:28)
Yeah.
Okay.
Have I not talked to you about Undertone yet? Undertone was very good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That one, that's the I swear I thought I'd talk to you about this. That's the one where may I could be thinking, I don't, I'm trying to think of who else it would have been. Maybe I didn't tell you, but yeah, we went there and it's very like Blair Witch coded. a lot happens and you have to be in the right mindset
Gina (07:40)
I don't think so 'cause it's the one about the p the podcaster, right? Okay.
Maybe I'm just not remembering the name.
Kathryn (08:03)
But it was it's one of those movies where I'm like, listen, if you like extreme horror and your, you know, your favorite movie is Saw or whatever the hell, if this movie is not gonna be for you. If you're more into like the, you know, the Blair Witchy.
kind of psychological, it's what you don't see that is terrifying. I think you would really like Undertone. I mean, it's it's it's a good movie. it's about podcasting. I mean it it captures the feeling of the reason why I only have one headphone in at a time because of like this movie. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Gina (08:36)
⁓ yeah. Okay, fair. Ooh, mm. All right.
Yeah.
Kathryn (08:44)
Yeah, I I I think you'd be fine with that one. It is scary. It's creepy, I'll say. I think you'd be fine with it.
Gina (08:49)
I did you'll be proud of me.
I watched Weapons recently and I was fine. I was okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Tom and I watched it together. I mean, I was scared. It wa it it's the most scared I've been watching a movie in a while, but it wasn't like I'm not traumatized by it. It was a very good film.
Kathryn (08:54)
Did you?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good. I love that movie.
Gina (09:07)
Yeah, that lady was super creepy. I can't remember what her name was. Evil clown witch lady. ⁓ yes or yes.
Kathryn (09:10)
Yeah. Amy Madgen. Yeah. Amy Madgen. Married
married to my one true love, as Phil would say. I mentioned one time that I had a little bit of a crush on Ed Harris in the nineties, and Phil will not let me live it down. I thought it was really
Gina (09:25)
Ha ha ha.
That's how Tom is that's
how Tom is with Oscar Isaac. Every time he sees him he's like, there's your boy.
Kathryn (09:35)
Yeah. That's what Phil
says. He's like, there's your boyfriend. I'm like, my god. I thought he was just really I thought he was a great dad and stepmom. That's it. Like yeah. Yeah. Anyway
Gina (09:41)
Mm-hmm.
That's hot. Being a great dad is hot.
Yeah, Phil.
I did ⁓ I'm excited to for the Scary on Top today because it has big Phil energy and I am gonna tease you with that and make you wait. It cracks me up. You'll you'll get it when Anyway, we have a lot to get through before Scary On Top. And I know basically nothing about your topic today, so please enlighten me.
Kathryn (09:58)
⁓ no, I'm scared. I know I wanna like go look at it now. I'm so scared. Okay. No.
We do. Yes.
Okay, we'll do.
this week I am going to be talking about La Llorona And I was going to start this episode just reading to you the story/slash legend of La Lorona. But when I went to look for a write-up of the actual story to read, it became very clear that that was not possible. Not because her story is hard to find. Quite the opposite. Her story is so prevalent and widely shared that
Not only are there numerous different versions of her story, but her origin, like the one true original story that I was trying to find, is heavily disputed to this day. There isn't really one original version of her story. There are many, many, many. So I will say I chose the story for Bodies of Water Month, because one of the key elements in her story is that she shows up along the banks of rivers.
The version I know says that she will lure sinful men wandering along the banks to their demise, kind of like a siren-like ghost situation. I will tell that story later, do not worry. ⁓ but right, but I'm I'm front-loading this explanation instead of just telling you the stories because
Gina (11:25)
Thank God.
Kathryn (11:34)
There are elements of her story that I'm going to talk about that also have to do with water that are much, much darker and very, very sad. And it would make me feel strange if people thought I chose it for those reasons. So I just wanted to clarify with that being said, I will give a content warning for severe depression slash mental health issues, also pregnancy and child loss, specifically child murder.
Gina (11:46)
Mm.
Kathryn (12:00)
So on that note, I am going to start us off by reading the version of her story that I plucked from the Library of Congress. and this is quite dark so just buckle up.
A long, long time ago, there lived a woman named Maria. She was the most beautiful woman in all of Mexico, and she herself knew it too. Day after day, male suitors begged for her hand in romance, but day after day, men returned home defeated. This was the livelihood of Maria until a dashing young gentleman galloped into town and turned Maria's life upside down. She knew in an instant that she had to have him.
for he was the only man to match her in beauty and in elegance. Soon they were to be wed, and not long after had two delightful children. This delight, however, was short-lived, for one damning day the dashing gentleman became grotesque as he rode into town with another woman at his side.
He rode up to Maria and pledged his life to this new woman whom he had just met, because his current wife was no longer beautiful. I know, so gross. Maria's heart burst into tiny shards of glass, invisible to the eye, but painful for those handling it. That night, in a fit of sorrow and anger, Maria decided to inflict the same agony toward the man that bestowed it upon her. Maria woke her two boys.
Gina (13:07)
My god.
Kathryn (13:26)
took their hands and guided them to the river for a bath. Hand in hand the three figures immersed themselves in water, but under their mother's hand the little niños never came up for air. After the blood red glare of fury faded from her sight, Maria came to and realized what she had done. She shrieked from the deepest gallows of her soul, Mis niños, mis niños before letting the river water fill up her lungs. It is said now this weeping woman
Or La Llorona has returned from the hereafter. she wanders along the banks of rivers searching for new children to claim as her own for all eternity.
So that is the story of La
Gina (14:09)
I can see why you gave the content warnings. Geez. Whew.
Kathryn (14:10)
Hold on second. Yeah, exactly. ⁓
yeah, very sad. The as is mentioned in the story, La Llorona translates to the weeping woman. She is someone that children grew up hearing about. Parents would and still very much do tell the story of La Llorona to essentially dissuade children from staying out too late at night.
Because if you're out in the woods or wander by the creek after the sun goes down, as the story states, La Llorona might take you as her own and you will never see your family again. She's almost like a boogeyman, if that's not a disrespectful way to compare it. Sorry, if it is. But it she's like kind of in that class of entity, you know. she comes after children. Children grow up being afraid of La Llorona. but where did she come from? Great question.
Long before the Spanish arrived in Mexico, people of the Aztec Empire shared stories about a mysterious goddess, whose name I did look up and practice and write out phonetically, but still so sorry. It just this is not an intuitive spelling for me, so I'm doing my best. I'm so sorry. I did try.
Gina (15:14)
Yeah.
Kathryn (15:19)
I think it's Sihuak Sihuakwat, I think. Sihuakwat, I think. I don't know. I'm so sorry. her name translates to Snake Woman. She I know, I know, is she's cool. We like her. sh yeah, she was a powerful and revered mother goddess associated with childbirth, motherhood, fertility, and just the earth in general.
Gina (15:29)
Sick.
Kathryn (15:44)
And like many Aztec deities, she embodied two opposing forces at once. One, she brought life into the world. And two, she also guided souls through their death journey. Very Persephone-coded. yeah. Yeah. So women who died giving birth in ⁓ you know, the Aztec culture were honored as fallen warriors, which
Gina (15:57)
Hell, I was just thinking that, yeah.
Kathryn (16:12)
I'm obsessed with. I love that very much. And yeah, exactly. it was believed that Sihua Quat would watch over them as they pass and like just kind of guide them through the journey of childbirth and caring for the child and helping the moms on the other side and you know, assuring them that things would be taken care of once they went. Midwives would call upon her during difficult births, asking her to protect both mother and child.
Gina (16:15)
As they should be.
Kathryn (16:40)
And she was thought of as a very nurturing figure, but she also had that kind of unsettling presence. She was there to remind people that life and death were inseparable. If you are born, you must eventually die, and she will be there for you for both milestones, essentially. As the Aztec Empire reached its heights, stories started to spread of a strange woman appearing after dark,
And
She was dressed all in white and she wandered silently through the streets before eventually breaking into absolutely devastating sobs. These accounts were later preserved in the Florentine Codex, which was a 16th-century ethnographic manuscript that documented the culture and history of the Aztec people. And according to the Codex, witnesses allegedly heard the woman in white call out.
You know, my children, my children, where are you? My children, we must flee this city. So it was a very ominous, like, something's gonna happen. We need to go. Where are you? Like, come with me type energy. No one knew exactly who she was or what she was doing there, or what she wanted, what we were trying to flee from. Everyone was just very confused about what was happening with this woman in white. But many believed that it was Siwakwat who was mourning.
A terrible future that only she could see, of like a prophecy type situation. And the children that she was calling out for, were not literal kids, but like the people of the Aztec nation, like all of her children, basically.
Gina (18:13)
Mm.
Kathryn (18:15)
Her cries were eventually remembered as one of the eight omens said to have appeared before the arrival of the Spanish in 1519. This omen appeared alongside reports of blazing comets, mysterious fires, various strange visions from numerous, you know, deities and citizens, etc., etc. prophets, I guess, if you will. And the weeping woman became a symbol of the coming catastrophe. Soon afterward,
Hernan Cortes and his forces entered the Valley of Mexico, and within just a few years, the Aztec Empire would fall. And to later generations, Siwa Quat's lament took on a whole new meaning. Rather than simply warning of disaster, she kind of became this symbol of grief in general. And she was thought of as this grieving mother forever searching for her children.
So obviously that echoes the story of La Llorona, but
historians debate exactly how much of La Yorana comes directly from Siwaquot's story, since the modern legend also draws from like European ghost stories and colonial era morality tales.
Because when the Spanish came over, of course they brought over their own folklore. And of course, Catholicism had a lot to do with kind of the building of folklore in that region, which has very different moral cornerstones than what the Aztecs believed. So even though there does seem to be a direct correlation to like from one of these women's stories to the other one, there's so much mixed in and there's so many other versions of things that
It's hard to say that this is the exact one true beginning. not only that, but as the Spanish conquest unfolded, stories about the crying woman did start to become kind of interwoven with the trauma of colonization. So it wasn't just Spanish influence, it was like internally these indigenous stories started to shift now that the Spanish.
were there and you know influencing what was already theirs. And one of the stories that further influenced the Siwaquot story was the story of a woman named Malinche. And Malinche was an indigenous woman who joined Cortez on his conquest as his advisor and she acted as an interpreter so she would translate between the Spanish army and the indigenous people. And eventually she did become his lover.
or concubine as it was called back then. And Milinche was born into a noble indigenous family. And she was little she was captured and enslaved before eventually working for Cortes. an important piece of her story because her role in helping the Spanish communicate with the indigenous people was later thought of as like a very big ⁓
Say like betrayal, like people viewed her as a traitor, you know, because she was an indigenous woman working for the Spanish. But many modern historians argue that her circumstances left her with really no actual choices. options were likely either help the Spanish or die. So it culturally, she is viewed as like a villain or traitor or whatever, but her story.
Gina (21:20)
Mm.
Kathryn (21:45)
As we've seen so many millions of times before, is a lot more complex than that. and we understand that now, and it's discussed in more complex terms now. But at the time, there was no room for complexity. That is just who she was. She was an evil figure to the indigenous people. and the more negative feelings people had toward her, and the further colonization.
went on, her real story kind of started to morph. She wasn't just his concubine. She kind of became this evil entity that eventually did drown the children that she had with him after Cortez abandoned her to go back to Spain. There is no historical documentation or evidence whatsoever to prove that that actually happened.
I'm thinking of it like what is the most violent, evil thing a woman could do? And that is what they assigned to her, basically. So that's where that yeah.
Gina (22:40)
Yeah.
Especially when it's like ba based on
the version that you told right at the top, especially if it's murdering your boys.
Kathryn (22:49)
Your bo exactly, yes, yeah. I didn't even think of that. Yes. so as the story kind of started to spread, we started to see the story of Malinche combined with the Siwaquat story. And that's when things started to change from family to family. it became this
Cautionary tale, if you will, that depending on what parents were trying to c caution their children about, they would change pieces of the story to kind of fit the narrative. And that is where we start to see La Llorona as her own sort of character, even though pieces grew out of these other women's stories.
There are historians that will argue that she was not like her story was not created in ⁓ Mexico or the Aztec region. A lot of people claim that oral traditions in Spain were like kind of her origin, but I think it's just one of those situations where, you know, her, she as a character did start.
in like what was the Aztec region, which is now, you know, predominantly Mexico, also Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica. But because of the Spanish influence, a lot of people claim Spain as her origin as well. So I think it's just like six of one, half a dozen the other. Like I think that both things are true. But she wasn't named until after the fall of the Aztec and when it became that kind of like Central America region.
Gina (24:05)
Mm.
Kathryn (25:20)
regardless of where she came from or what version of her story that you hear, there are basic elements that the standard La Llorona story always has. One, something heartbreaking happens to her. Two, she has a mental breakdown. In a fit of either grief or rage, she drowns her children. Some stories are starting to do away with the drowning.
And it's just like a she does something terrible, like there's still an element of her losing her children, but we're kind of in a in an era where that's kind of shifting a little bit. but child loss seems to be like the main key, whereas like the drowning used to be the key, and now it's just general loss. three, after realizing what she has done, she dies by suicide, and then final form.
Her spirit wanders near rivers and or waterways, sometimes just the woods in general, depending on the version of the story. And she is crying out for help in some capacity, often for her children. But again, things are changing, so not always for her kids, just crying out, sobbing in general. So this is where we get the version of the story used to get children to, you know, come home before the streetlights come on.
it wasn't until the nineteenth century when the stories started to spread into the American Southwest that the legend started to grow into the version that I knew, which is the one where she lures men. And at that point it was still just in oral traditions. We don't have any documentation of that version until well after the nineteenth century. I don't know when the first official documented version of that story was, but I do think that it wasn't until
like mid twentieth century. I think it was a long time. Yeah. And I'll Yeah, I'll get into that a little bit, but I won't go into too much detail just because I'm not 100% sure. But it is that is a very, very recent version of her story.
Gina (27:08)
Wow. That's way later than I would have thought.
Well and I guess too with folklore, like it's hard to pin down the first version of anything because it changes so much over time that like what it what do you mean by first version, you know? So yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Kathryn (27:28)
Right.
Right. 'Cause even
yeah, even the Siwaquat story, it's like that wasn't really La Llorona yet, you know, so it's right.
Gina (27:39)
Mhm. That was about her protecting people. That wasn't about a
woman doing had like having something horrible happen to her and because of her. It was kind of the opposite. Yeah.
Kathryn (27:48)
Right. Yeah,
I agree. So it's like we can claim that as the early version of her story, but you could also argue it wasn't because that wasn't her, you know?
Gina (27:59)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (28:00)
I will tell the full version now, as this version of the story goes. One night a man was walking alone long after dark. He had spent the night drinking with friends and was stumbling his way over to his lover's house as his wife and children slept at home. Suddenly, there she was, a beautiful woman standing alone in the moonlight, dressed in a flowing white nightgown.
Her long black hair hid most of her face as she stared toward the water, softly crying. Ignoring the uneasy feeling creeping up his spine, the man stepped closer with the intent of helping the beautiful woman and perhaps getting something in return. Senora, he called, are you all right? She didn't answer. She just turned away from him and glided along the water, softly sobbing. The man followed. Then, without warning, she stopped abruptly.
And slowly turned to face him, but the beautiful woman was gone. Instead, what stared back at him was nothing more than a grinning skull that shrieked with an ear-piercing scream. By morning, all that remained of the man were footprints leading to the river's edge and the faint sound of a woman crying somewhere in the distance. So did you like that one better?
Gina (29:11)
I like this version. I like that version a lot. I like the bit where she
turned into an angry skull.
Kathryn (29:17)
I know, I saw
your face. An angry skull. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Gina (29:21)
So okay, in this version
of it like in this chapter of La Llorona lore does she prey specifically on like men who have done something wrong to a woman? Or is it sh she preys on men in general?
Kathryn (29:34)
Depends who you ask. This is very much a depends who's telling the story. I think that one might argue that those could be the same thing. You know what I mean? The more jaded class will say. yes. But I will say the theme
Gina (29:35)
Okay.
You know what? You make a damn good point, Kathryn.
Kathryn (29:55)
or purpose seems to be of revenge, you know, like he's out drinking, he's not being faithful to his wife, therefore, blah blah blah. You know, like a good man who was not gonna follow a woman in the woods down by a riverbank is not in danger of getting eaten by La Llorona. You know what I mean?
Gina (29:59)
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
If if you look at a woman who's crying and think maybe if I comfort her she'll sleep with me, maybe you deserve to meet an angry skull. Yeah.
Kathryn (30:18)
That's the key. Right.
Right. There's a difference between trying to help a crying woman and trying to be thanked for helping a crying woman. That seems to be the key difference. But could also just be like, you're a dude, stay away from rivers because no one is safe, you know? because this, I I'm not gonna go too deep into this, but there there are a lot of other
Gina (30:37)
Ha ha ha
Kathryn (30:46)
⁓ this is gonna sound very familiar to a lot of people because there are a lot of indigenous stories that have versions of a woman like this who prey on men at night who are out drinking too late and you know, should be going home, but they're actually going that way, kind of thing. There's a lot of stories like that. So, you know, it just depending on the culture or where you are, she might have a different name, but it is all underneath this kind of weeping woman umbrella, I guess.
Gina (31:00)
Mm.
Kathryn (31:15)
One of my favorite things about La Llorona, it's I mean it's gonna be very obvious to anyone that has listened to our podcast ever. It's just the fact that she follows that classic trajectory that most stories of evil women do, we start off with a version of her story where she is actually very helpful. she is warning people that something bad is coming and you know, we all need to protect ourselves and get out of here, save ourselves.
And then she transforms into this monster told as a cautionary tale to children. And then now she's evolving again in more modern times. And we are starting to see like what we what we just heard, you know, the story of like it wasn't like it's not the bad things were not on her. These are bad things that were done to her and we're now
punishing those that kind of catapulted the events that would take place. Go ahead. Yeah. I did huh, that's weird. I didn't even think of that. I feel like my brain usually goes to that. I didn't even clock that. Yeah. it's very similar. I feel like all of these deities and female entities have very similar there are pieces of all of them in each other, you know, like
Gina (32:06)
Big Lilith energy with that, too.
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Kathryn (32:25)
The revenge is a very modern interpretation of all these stories that I'm really vibing with. I'm really loving this. I know you do. Yeah, I know you do. I know I was waiting for I was like, sorry about the first version of the story, just hold on until we get to the second one because I promise it's gonna be b good toward the end.
Gina (32:31)
Yeah. I mean, you know how much I love revenge, so it's my favorite flavor.
Yeah.
Kathryn (32:46)
So yeah, I all of this is to say what we can gather from this kind of more recent version of her story is punishment is where it should have been all along. And beyond that, as we learn more as a society about mental health and depression and psychosis and all of these things that have to do with like severe mental health issues, people definitely view her as a more
Empathetic character, yes, she did do a terrible thing. And like I don't, I don't want to like brush past that part of it. that is a huge part of her story that like is the whole story. She is paying for all eternity for that though. she has been punished for her wrongdoing. It's just that in these more modern versions, the men are being punished finally as well,
Gina (33:33)
Mm.
Kathryn (33:33)
All of this is to say it doesn't matter how empathetic her story is or who she is as a character.
doesn't make her any less terrifying because the result is the same. Doesn't matter whose fault it was or who you want to point a finger at or anything like that. She is still a figure who wanders around at night snatching up little children. And one of the more I don't want to say it's more emotional than kidnapping kids, but I think it adds a little bit of a like different type of anxiety is
She is associated with pregnancy loss. It is part of her lore that she will steal babies from straight from a mother's womb. So a lot of women are afraid of La Llorona after they conceive. and when I say they fear her, I mean genuinely.
it is ingrained in the culture so deeply. I have heard stories of women who, you know, they get pregnant in the last like two or three months of their pregnancy, they'll go like stay with family elsewhere in another country because they're so afraid of La Llorona coming and taking their baby before they can be born.
it's not just the children that are afraid of her. It's literally everybody. she's kind of a just a representation of.
That fear in general. It's like a name that you can put to the fear of losing a child. And I I think that it's really easy for people to kind of write this off as just, she's just a folk character. It's not real. You know, she's not really coming to take people's babies. Like if you're a skeptic, it's easy to view it that way. But the things that she represents are very real.
Gina (34:49)
Mm.
That reminds me of bit in that witch podcast that we like that the BBC did. ⁓ we'll put a link in the show notes. But there's the episode that they do on ⁓ belief in magic. And this guy is like, it's easy to like even the strongest non-believer in the world, the biggest skeptic in the world, ask them to go into a room and think really, really hard and try to make something bad happen to their family. And they won't do it because what if? You know what I mean? Like there's always that.
Kathryn (35:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (35:37)
Why take the risk? Just to be safe. This thing is important because our brains tell us that it is, and that that means that it is important. You know what I mean?
Kathryn (35:45)
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that.
I I was like questioning whether I wanted to bring this up because it's like very fresh, but have you seen or heard about that Netflix documentary, The Maternal Instinct?
Gina (35:59)
No. What's that? Mm mm.
Kathryn (36:01)
You haven't heard anything about it? Okay.
I'm not gonna go super into detail about this documentary. It is absolutely devastating and I've depressed us enough in this episode. As a general summary, it is a true crime documentary about this woman who claimed to give birth on the side of the road. It was discovered this baby was not hers.
Gina (36:28)
I have heard of this. I didn't know the name. I or at least I've heard of the case. I didn't know there was a documentary.
Kathryn (36:30)
Drama, tragedy ensues, yes. Yeah. So
yeah, it just came out recently. I remember reading about this. It happened in the fall of 2020.
it's a horrendous story. Like, watch at your own risk. the reason I bring it up, her story, is
what women are afraid La Llorona is gonna do to them. So I'm like, this is why I say, like the even though we say La Lorona isn't real or, you know, she won't get you, don't worry, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like these fears really are valid. Like these things really do happen. So it is worth sharing these stories, whether or not you believe in ghosts, you know?
Gina (36:50)
Okay.
God, that's terrifying.
Kathryn (37:12)
my god, it's so awful. And I don't, I feel weird bringing up the documentary. I'm not trying to like capitalize on this documentary or anything. It is just genuinely directly related to this story. So we just watched it the other night and I was like wrestling with myself on whether or not I wanted to bring it up. But I mean, I think it is relevant just to understand how important La Lorona's story is.
But gonna like shift gears just a little bit because I want to talk about one of my favorite chapters of the La Llorona history. I mentioned the first, I believe, documented record or whatever of the more recent version of her story happened in the mid-20th century. And I believe that it was
documented when there was a research study done at a juvenile detention facility for girls in the 60s. Have you heard of this? The Las Palmas School for Girls? Girl. ⁓ really? Okay. It's rumor had it in the 60s, Las Palmas School for Girls in California
Gina (38:07)
No that rings a bell. I don't know anything about it.
Kathryn (38:17)
Was haunted by what the girls described as a ghostly female figure who wandered the halls at night. So a folklorist named Bess Lomax Hawes visited the school to collect these stories from the girls who were living there. They were all teenagers.
She essentially wanted to document where these stories were coming from, if there was any like cultural connection to the versions of stories they were telling, and just like why was it that all of these girls were seeing the same thing and you know, sharing these stories with each other? What she found became one of the most influential studies of La Jorona in basically modern folklore history and just
modern folklore studies in general. This became like kind of a capstone case in understanding how folklore spreads and grows and changes, et cetera, in modern times. So she interviewed, I believe it was 14 girls who told about 30 stories in total. 28 of those stories featured a similarly described frightening female ghost, and nine
Nine of the girls identified the ghost specifically as La Llorona, and many of the remaining stories either closely resembled La Llorona or you know had elements of her story or physical appearance, even when she wasn't named directly. So, according to their stories, La Llorona was often seen wandering the halls of the facility, and she was sobbing. Sometimes she would stand outside.
Of the building, like just on the grounds, and watch the building. They would often say that they could feel her like looking up into the window. And most of these stories were either passed down from like girl to girl, like they heard it from someone who heard it from someone who used to be here, but now she's out. Or they heard it from a mom or a sister or an auntie or a grandma or a friend or whatever.
At least one girl, I think it was more than one girl, did claim to see her at the detention facility with her own eyes. What I love most about this research project was that Hawes wasn't really interested in proving whether or not the girls were actually seeing ghosts or even just believed they were really seeing a ghost.
What she cared about was why were these girls telling these stories in the first place? And like how were all of these stories, like the ones that they heard from like moms, aunties, et cetera, they were so similar and so different, I guess, at the same time that she was interested in that specifically. Like what made the story you heard different in this way from the story that this girl heard? ⁓ it reminded
Gina (41:10)
Interesting.
Kathryn (41:11)
Yeah, it reminds me a lot of the Bloody Mary episode when we were talking, yeah.
Gina (41:15)
That's what was just thinking of. Yeah,
'cause they did a really similar thing.
Kathryn (41:19)
because I remember my thoughts on that episode kind of came down to like, well, who who cares? Girls just like telling ghost stories, you know? Like, does it necessarily matter where these stories come from? but like similar to the Bloody Mary story, I don't necessarily think there is a correct answer. I don't think it's as easy as just like
Saying, okay, this is why they're telling this story, but I also don't think it's as easy as just brushing it off as like, okay, girls will be girls. You know, there's like something in between those two things. particularly the reason that's true for this story is that an overwhelming majority of the girls, if not all of the girls, at this detention center had experience in unstable homes, abuse, abandonment.
Gina (41:46)
Mm.
Kathryn (42:04)
various forms of emotional and physical neglect before coming to Las Palmas. So there is a direct correlation between these girls and this story about a woman who suffered tremendous loss and betrayal, emotional instability that led her to lashing out and doing something unthinkable that led to a lifetime of punishment.
you know, wandering around looking for her children, similar to doing something so bad that one might be detained in a juvenile facility. So Hawes basically concluded that La Llorona had become sort of a shared language for the girls to express emotions that were otherwise either difficult to discuss or something that might be seen as weakness, rather than saying, I feel scared, I was abandoned.
I wish I could go home, these girls could just tell a ghost story that shared all of those individual things. And the legend gave shape to these very real feelings that these girls had about loneliness and guilt, but also just like the fear of the unknown. Like who knows what's gonna happen after we get out of here, you know? that fear of the unknown could be communicated through La So
What started as a story about like a terrifying and mysterious woman kind of has stayed a story about a mysterious and terrifying woman. What has changed is the things that make her so mysterious and terrifying and why her story is shared. It's not like the elements of the story haven't really changed at all. It's
the reason for and the context within these stories are shared that has changed significantly over the years.
I just find her fascinating.
Gina (43:55)
That is absolutely fascinating, and I knew none like my the extent of my knowledge was that one song that everyone knows, and also ⁓ Water and the Death of Children. And I didn't know how those things all played together.
Kathryn (44:03)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. It goes so deep. Yeah.
Gina (44:10)
That is fascinating. It does. And it
feels very I mean, I feel like every time we do an episode about like a a quote bad woman, I'm always like, it's indicative of the wider female experience. And I feel the same way this time. Like I'm not trying to make it a big grand thing, but it's just like what's I I do think the pre the masculine presence in her story is really interesting.
Kathryn (44:21)
Yeah.
I know.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (44:38)
And I'm struggling to put it into words because the her story is just like a horrible thing happens to her and then she does horrible thing. But also she doesn't really seem to have any agency at any part of it. Like yes, she does in the story kill her kids, but she was having a mental breakdown and when she comes to she regrets it. And yes, of course, she still did it. It is still her fault. But there's a reason why we
Kathryn (44:46)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (45:00)
not guilty by reason of insanity. You know what I mean? And so it's just like she's such this terrifying evocative figure, which in versions of the folklore, I mean, how much did she really have a say at the end of it? I don't know. It's just interest it's fascinating. I'm also intrigued to see how the folklore is gonna change and the bits that people relate to and the bits that stay the same.
Kathryn (45:00)
Mm-hmm.
I know.
Yeah,
I do like that the the piece that has stayed the same is that she is still deeply mourning for her children. There isn't really a version of her story where even as this like evil entity, she's not like, ⁓ fuck them kids. You know what I mean? Like she there is always that piece of her that like at her core she is a mother. Like that is the thing that she is and always will be.
Gina (45:44)
Mm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (45:54)
It's just the whole like, even just the bad stuff about her own children. Like she is now looking for other kids. And it's like, well, who the fuck are you trying to take someone else's kids after what you did? You know? But it's like that is I I don't want to say universal experience, but like that is a thing, you know, that is like a sign that's such a deep sign of grief, you know?
Gina (46:03)
Yeah, true.
Yeah,
Well, you'll be glad to know I found us some lighthearted stuff for Scary on Top because
Kathryn (46:17)
Yeah.
I was gonna ask you, I was gonna ask you if I was gonna
say, do you have something lighter for me? But I was scared that you didn't. So good.
Gina (46:29)
I do. Give me one sec
Alright, so despite knowing very little about La Llorona I did suspect this was gonna be a dark episode. So I looked up funny ghost stories. So I have two stories for you. One of them is incredibly short, one of them is a little bit longer, ⁓ and they both come from threads on Reddit that were basically just like, you know, everyone always has really scary ghost stories. What are some funnier or lighthearted experiences that people have had?
Kathryn (46:41)
⁓ nice. Okay, cool.
Gina (46:59)
So this first one is the one that I think has major Phil energy. It just makes me laugh so much. And i this person does just jump straight into like their little story, but just for the sake of context, he is talking about meeting a ghost in his house. And it says, quote, this is from user Kid Moth, quote, I told that freeloader to fight me.
Kathryn (47:04)
god, okay, I'm so scared.
Okay. Okay.
Yeah.
Gina (47:30)
You see why. All right,
so it says
that freeloader to fight me and by golly they did. One of my little snow globes came flying off the shelf and almost hit me in the head. As in, it lurched forward and flew horizontally through the air at my head three feet away. And you know what? That freeloader missed.
feel like Phil totally would call a ghost a freeloader
Kathryn (48:00)
He wa he yeah, he would call him a bozo to this is what I'm hearing. Yeah. I love how this is like a a funny ghost story, but like actually very terrifying.
Gina (48:02)
What was that?
Terrifying.
Throwing glass at your head. It's very scary. Alright, this next one is ⁓ more lighthearted. I do enjoy this one. It's from a user called Mike the Cleaning Lady, and it says, I've had more than a few not so serious paranormal encounters. One of them really stands out in my memory, so it's funny you should ask this question. When I was nineteen, my parents bought a big old house on a huge wooded lot.
Kathryn (48:13)
Yeah.
Gina (48:38)
The place was originally built in 19 something, and the original owners both died in the house and were interred on the property, neither of which was anything unusual at that time. They were also heavy spiritualists, members of a Christian church that was into seances and whatnot. And the cellar, which contained an actual chapel, looked like something straight out of an Aussie video.
Needless to say, I loved the place, and weird stuff happened on an almost regular basis. The first thing we noticed was that nothing could be left burning unattended. Candles, cigarettes, and even incense would go out within a minute of being left alone. Then there were the flare people. Two, always two, little balls of light that would change colors and move at roughly walking speed around the roof line, usually in the late afternoon.
Then things got really goofy. I'm a rock musician in a family of musicians of varying genres, so everyone I've ever lived with knows not to touch the settings on my amp. I had a Marshall half stack at the time, and one night I hit the power button without looking for anything unusual. And within seconds, the walls shook and the windows nearly shattered from the ungodly feedback coming from the speakers. I killed the power.
Kathryn (50:01)
My gosh.
Gina (50:02)
And noticed that every knob on my power unit was cranked to maximum. I would never have done that, not even in a drunken stupor, and neither would anyone else in the house. So I went way out on a limb and decided to talk to the original owners. I said, Eli and Jeannie, the original owners' names, I know you like having fun, but can you take it easy on the levels? That almost destroyed my cabinet, and those things are expensive. Half a second after I said that,
Two guitars hanging on the wall both went wang as if someone struck the strings and the amp thing never happened again.
Kathryn (50:38)
my gosh.
Wow. That's wild. Yeah. Like, all right, my bad.
Gina (50:45)
I just thought it was cute that the they were just like, sorry won't do it again. I also love the
fire thing because that's such a we're taking care of you.
Kathryn (50:56)
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. When you first said flame, I was like, Ooh, yikes. In my head I was like, Okay, it's feel good, it's feel good. Yeah.
Gina (51:01)
Yeah, at first I I thought when I was reading
it for the first time, ⁓ that it would be like it would catch on things and we'd have to panic and put it out. But like what a lovely such a helpful ghost.
Kathryn (51:09)
Right. Yeah. That's nice.
Yeah.
Gina (51:14)
so these freeloaders are really they're not freeloading.
Kathryn (51:14)
Well. my god, that was so funny. I love how that story was
not feel good at all. It was just the way it was told. That first one with the preloader. It's just the way they told it. That's so funny. Like my god.
Gina (51:23)
Just cracked me up. Just my god. ⁓ Freeloader missed.
⁓
yes, but if you have any stories, ⁓ funny or not that you would like to hear us read on the podcast, feel free to send them to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. You can also leave us a rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts, that really helps us out. So thank you if you do. And as a quick reminder, we do also have a Patreon if you would like to see more from us. We do post there really regularly, so
Make sure to check that out. Link is in the show notes. And until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (52:03)
And keep it creepy.
