85: The Mystery of the Mary Celeste
Kathryn (01:08)
Hello, welcome to I Scream, You Scream. We are your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Kathryn.
Gina (01:16)
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (01:17)
And it's a new month. It is July. Happy hot, hot weather season. This month we are going to be telling stories about bodies of water to help cool us down. And the flavor is ice cream floats. Shout out to our friend Raina for that idea.
If you already know us, welcome back and feel free to join us over on Patreon. This episode is sponsored by Clobear Money Coach. If you're ready to start investing but unsure exactly how to get going, visit getlazynow.com. And now grab, I'm gonna say a straw or a spoon. I still have a spoon, and let's dig in. What good.
Gina (01:51)
Yeah.
I also brought a spoon 'cause I I'm not like an
ice cream float person, I didn't know if I was supposed to drink it or eat it, and so I became prepared.
Kathryn (02:00)
Yeah, it's weird. It's
kind of both. I the reason I didn't do a straw is I have this really cute well, it's not mine, it's Phil's. It's a he's a root beer guy now. I know I've talked about this on the podcast before, but it's like a small, like root beer mug. But the only straws I have, you saw them when we met with the twats last year. It would come up to like here. So I was like, I can't do that. They're so big. what what kind of float are you eating? What are you doing?
Gina (02:07)
⁓ yeah.
Hmm.
yeah. They're massive. that's funny.
So I went non traditional and I'm doing peach ice cream with cream soda. And it's very 'cause it's really we're in the middle of a heat wave and this is incredibly refreshing. I just had a bite and it's wonderful.
Kathryn (02:31)
Okay.
Mm. Mm.
Yeah.
I've never had peach ice cream before, I don't think.
Gina (02:46)
They're doing a lim I think it's a limited edition Peach Melba ice cream because of the new season of Rivals. Do you watch Rivals? It's about well, it's about Rivals. in I think it's like I'd say I wanna say it takes place in like the seventies and it's about I think like competing television networks. And so it's kind of a social drama period piece, but it's also kind of outrageous and a bit silly and
Kathryn (02:53)
I do not I don't think I know about what is rivals.
Okay. So far so good.
Okay.
Gina (03:14)
⁓ yeah, like a horned up succession kind of.
Kathryn (03:18)
Okay. I still haven't watched Succession. ⁓ it is at the top of the list. Is that over? Do you watch Succession? Okay. It's over though, right? Okay. I think we were ri I think we were waiting for it to be done so that we could just roll through it. 'Cause by the time I was interested in it, it was a few seasons deep and I was just like, Once you get a few seasons in, I'm like, I would just rather wait.
Gina (03:26)
I did. I really enjoyed it, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
That's how I am too. So I I assume that you are having a classic root beer. Float. Are you not? Ooh, okay, what is it?
Kathryn (03:48)
Yeah.
I am not. I'm not. No, I actually
I actually don't really like root beer.
But I drink it all the time because Phil is a root beer guy and he's always like, this is so good, try it. And I always am like hoping that it's the one that I'm like obsessed with. ⁓ never am. so I have a lemon lime soda with the orange strip from my Rainbow Sherbert bucket.
Gina (03:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You are getting the most out of that thing. ⁓ Mad respect though, no waste.
Kathryn (04:20)
Yeah, I opened the bucket and I was like, okay, whose turn is it? And it was like the raspberry was real low, and then the orange in the middle was like the mountain. And then it went back down to the Valley of Green. And I was like, all right, orange it is. And I will say, I do think that this is going to be a month where I I think unlike other months, the goal this
Gina (04:33)
wants to see the outside world today?
Kathryn (04:46)
is a different something every time. Cause there are a lot of different flavors I want to do. Yeah. Yeah. The only reason I'm not doing the whiskey and ginger, like whiskey ice cream ginger ale is because I just don't have either of those two things. So I was like, okay, this is kind of a fun opportunity to get creative.
Gina (04:49)
I was thinking the same thing. Yes. Hundred percent agree.
Yeah, fair.
I did think about doing a classic root beer float and then I thought, you know, I was never a fan of those as a kid. I might as well try something else. And I was excited to experiment with different combinations this month as well. So we will see.
Kathryn (05:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm dying to hear the story, but before we do, we have a little happy birthday shout out to our very first baby of the pod podcast baby. I don't know what we want to call her. Happy first birthday to our littlest fan Rowan, who we were invited to her birthday party, which is
Gina (05:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Uh-huh.
Kathryn (05:36)
This weekend, so we cannot go Huge shout out to Rowan. Thank you so much for inviting us to your very first birthday party. ⁓ and hopefully.
She doesn't listen to these episodes, but we hope your mom enjoys it. I guess she's little enough, she's not repeating things yet, so it's fine.
Gina (05:48)
Ha ha ha
Say damn it, Rowan. Damn it, damn it. Sorry, Brooke.
That's how I learned my first Not someone saying damn it, damn it. It was my mom's friend was ⁓ I think my dad might have been deployed at the time, or like it was just my mom and her friend hanging out. And her friend kept looking at me and like trying to, you know, when they're like, can you say ba? And then, you know, I would make my little baby sounds, and she would go, No, no. And so my first word was no. And my mom Cause your first word was, yeah, we share our first word.
Kathryn (06:02)
Wait, really?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Have we talked about this? My first word was no.
Gina (06:29)
And a rising sign. How's that?
Kathryn (06:30)
We
have we have talked about this, yes. Yes. I didn't realize it came from a friend though. How old were you?
Gina (06:33)
It's beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
Probably like a week old. I was a very smart baby. No, I have no idea. I ⁓ I don't remember it. I've been told the story. I don't remember.
Kathryn (06:41)
I just it's just amazing that you remember this. I definitely do not remember mine. ⁓ I'm sorry.
I you know what? I literally just made that up. bye-bye. You did not say that you remember that. I'm just over here like, wow, you're so smart. I was sitting in my high chair.
Gina (06:53)
Yeah.
it well it was February ninety six dining on Cheerios
and oatmeal ⁓ that's funny.
Kathryn (07:05)
I don't know what my brain just did. Okay, I love that. Wait,
so I interrupted you though. What was the swear word?
Gina (07:12)
it wasn't a swear word, it was just the word no. She just kept saying it over and over again.
Kathryn (07:14)
I'm so sorry.
I I thought I thought you said you're so I thought you were saying you remember your first swear word.
Gina (07:23)
no I don't but I did my family's favorite story about a swear word is when we went to Antie Ann was it Annie Anne's? What's the name you know the ⁓ I think that might the cause is that the pretzel place? I'm thinking of the ch cookie place.
Kathryn (07:25)
Yeah, I don't either.
I love anti Anne's.
Yeah.
Ooh, Mrs. Fields? Yeah. Ooh, those are good mall cookies.
Gina (07:39)
Mrs. Fields. That's what it was. We went there. Yeah,
and they said, Gina, do you want a cookie? And I said, Yes. And they got me a normal size cookie. And you know how they have those big cake cookie cake things? They handed me the cookie and I said, Damn it, I wanted the big cookie. And they were all very surprised.
Kathryn (07:50)
⁓ no.
Gina (08:03)
Yeah, yeah, it's a fun one.
Kathryn (08:04)
I don't
I don't know I've I don't know if I have any like swearing stories.
Gina (08:11)
I would love to know your I would love to hear a story about little Katie swearing.
Kathryn (08:15)
Yeah, I don't know not sure if I've heard any. I'm sure my parents are like, my god, yes, there's this one, there's that one, blah, blah, blah. But I don't I don't know if I Yeah, I don't know. I'll have to ask.
Gina (08:28)
I mean listen, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. I am here for this. I want those stories. If anyone out there heard Kathryn swear when she was an itty bitty girl ⁓ Send me that.
Kathryn (08:32)
It's probably gonna be you know who's
yeah, you know who's gonna have those stories is Adam. Yeah, he'll he'll he'll have some like that. ⁓
Gina (08:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.
I'm very much looking
forward to that.
Kathryn (08:49)
Yeah, well I am very much looking forward to your story.
Gina (08:49)
Well, yeah.
Yeah, while I wait with bated breath for those emails, I can tell you a tale. So today I'm going to be telling you about one of the greatest maritime mysteries of all time, the Mary Celeste, which was a brigatine that was found deserted in the Atlantic Ocean over 150 years ago. When it was found, it was in completely seaworthy condition.
Kathryn (08:54)
Yeah.
Gina (09:15)
It had plenty of provisions on board, and for all intents and purposes, it was just a normal cargo ship. Except its captain and crew were nowhere to be found. And to this day, no one knows what happened to them. But we do have some theories. Quick content warning: in today's episode, I will be talking about theorized murder, including the speculative death of a young child. And I'm also going to mention suicide.
So welcome to Bodies of Water Month. It's gonna be super chill.
Kathryn (09:46)
Yeah. Mine
next week is not chill at all either. But it's fine. We started this way with ⁓ amusement park month and it ended up totally fine.
Gina (09:52)
Okay, cheers.
don't know if I'm totally fine, but it ended up being totally So the Mary Celeste is best known for its mysterious desertion in 1872, but it has a very dark history that goes all the way back to when the ship was first built, leading some to believe that the Mary Celeste was cursed from the beginning. The ship was built on Spencer's Island in Nova Scotia, so she's a Canadian girl.
And in eighteen sixty one it launched with the name Amazon. For its maiden voyage, the ship was meant to take a cargo of timber from Canada to London. But its very first captain, a guy named Robert McClellan, got sick right after they loaded the cargo onto the ship, and before they could set off, he died.
Kathryn (10:43)
That's very fast.
Gina (10:45)
Very immediate. So they had to find someone else to take his place, because they still had to bring all this stuff to London, and they found this guy named John Nutting Parker. Excellent name. And this time no one died, but they did crash into some fishing equipment off of the coast of Maine. And when they did eventually get to London, they ran into another ship, and that other ship sunk.
Kathryn (10:47)
Hmm.
All right. Yeah.
my god.
What the F?
Gina (11:11)
I know, yeah. six years later, the ship got caught in a storm in Nova Scotia that damaged it so badly the owners decided to abandon it.
And they were just like, screw it, too many bad things have happened to this boat. This has bad vibes, it's not worth the cost of the repairs, we're out. Shortly after that, though, someone else bought it because they were like, it'll be fine, you know, we'll fix it up. And that's when it got its name, Mary Celeste. So Mary Celeste was kind of the reincarnation of the original ship. Which brings us to
Kathryn (11:26)
Hm.
Okay.
Gina (11:43)
Her fateful voyage in 1872 that would result in abandonment, mystery, and over a century and a half of wild fucking theories about what happened, and we are going to go through so very many of them. This is a theory episode. I'm very excited about it. So I'm gonna start by telling you what we do know about the captain, the crew, and the trip that ultimately resulted in the Mary Celeste getting abandoned and becoming the mystery that we know today. And as we go along.
Kathryn (11:54)
Ooh, okay, cool.
I love that. I love it.
Gina (12:13)
We might be able to pick up on a few clues about what happened. So put on your smarty pants, because the ice cream yeast cream girls are figuring it out. We're solving the case. So when the ship was found it was captained by a guy named Benjamin Briggs. Captain Briggs, which is the most captain-y captain name I've ever heard in my entire life.
Kathryn (12:22)
Sweet. Yeah, stick around to the end for the answer to the Mary Celeste case.
Yeah.
Gina (12:39)
He was
Kathryn (12:39)
Absolutely.
Gina (12:40)
a Massachusetts boy, and he was also a Taurus. He came from a family of seafarers. His dad was a sea captain, and three of his four brothers also made their living at sea. So it was very much in his blood. He was a very religious guy, also a very respected guy, and he was also the father to two young children. and his wife, Sarah, had a boy named Arthur and a little girl named Sophia.
And at the time all of this happens, Arthur would have been around six, and Sophia was two. When Sophia was born, Captain Briggs actually thought about retiring from sea life for a while. He wanted something a little bit more stable for him and his young family. But the call of the sea was just too much, and he wound up investing his savings in the Mary Celeste. So he wasn't just the captain, he was also part owner of the ship as well.
Kathryn (13:29)
wow.
Gina (13:32)
he was to sail from New York to Genoa, Italy, to deliver a cargo of seventeen hundred barrels of industrial strength alcohol, which sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Kathryn (13:42)
Sway.
Cheers to that.
Gina (13:47)
Right. And the family decided that Sarah, his wife, and Sophia, his daughter, would join him on the trip, and that their boy Arthur would stay at home with his grandma. I don't know why, I couldn't find record of why they left Arthur at home. I think it it might have been ha might have had to do with his age. Like a six year old boy running around stuck on one ship is a lot harder to manage than a two year old. Six year old is little bit harder to entertain, I would imagine.
Kathryn (13:59)
I was just gonna ask. Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah. Hm, interesting.
Gina (14:16)
Or maybe he was in school by that point. I don't know how things work.
Kathryn (14:18)
I was just gonna say
maybe school, but yeah, I don't know how things worked back then 'cause I'm like they could've just mom could've just taught him. But I don't know.
Gina (14:26)
Yeah, I don't know.
So that's the captain and his family. was also extremely careful in choosing his crew, and he had a very good reason to be, because not only was he personally financially invested in the success of this trip, but also his wife and little girl were gonna be stuck with whoever he picked for months on end. So taking risks in the hiring process was just not an option for Captain Briggs. He wound up choosing a first mate that had worked under him before.
Incidentally, that first mate was also married into the family of one of the other owners of the ship, because there was like a a group of people that each had like held a small portion of the ownership. ⁓ so he had a financial interest in this as well, albeit like a less direct financial interest. The second mate was a young guy, he was about 25 years old, very eager to prove himself. ship steward was newly married and hired on the personal recommendation of another part owner.
Kathryn (15:06)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (15:25)
And the rest of the crew were described as quote, peaceful first-class sailors. When Briggs finally had everyone hired, he was so happy about the quality of this group that he wrote a letter to his mom, basically saying, like, this ship is so awesome, this crew rocks, I'm so excited, yay! Like there was nothing weird from the start. Like all signs point positive at this point. On Tuesday, November 5th, 1872.
The Mary Celeste left New York City with Captain Briggs, his wife and daughter, and seven members of crew. So this was like a pretty small group of people. When I think about trips like this, I always imagine like f dozens of people on deck running around. It wasn't like that. It was a very small group.
Kathryn (16:05)
Yeah.
Interesting. Okay. That yeah, when you were talking about how selective he was, in my head I was like, God, that must have taken so long. Cause I'm imagining like forty, fifty million people.
Gina (16:22)
Yes, a small continent, yes. ⁓ Yeah, no, it was a really small group, and one of the byproducts of that was like it was really hard to fly under the radar. Like everyone was in each other's business all the time. If someone was acting suspiciously, you would notice really fast. Anyway, so they got to sailing, and pretty much immediately the weather turned against them. Like they had barely gotten out of port at this point. So
Kathryn (16:23)
Yes.
Mm.
Yeah.
Gina (16:45)
They anchored just off the coast of Staten Island and they decided to just like wait the weather out. And during this little delay, Sarah wrote a letter to her mother-in-law, who was the one that was watching her son Arthur. the letter basically said, like, Tell Arthur that I can't wait for his letters. I'm gonna try my hardest to remember anything that happens on this trip that he might like to hear about. ⁓ and I tell you this because all of the evidence we have.
Points to the fact that these people were not planning on disappearing. And it might sound like obvious to point that out, but you do get people theorizing every now and then that this was a premeditated inside job. They wanted to disappear from the start. And the evidence that we have just does not support that. So putting it out there.
Kathryn (17:26)
Yeah.
Gina (17:32)
Anyway, two days later, the weather cleared, and the Mary Celeste officially left the harbor and journeyed into the open ocean. The ship that would eventually find the Mary Celeste, which was another ship called the De Gratia, departed from New Jersey about eight days later, and it followed the same kind of general route as the Mary Celeste.
And for international listeners, New Jersey and New York are like right next to each other. So both ships departed from a very similar place, and they were both heading to Genoa. The De De Gratia was just about a week behind. And that's gonna come back later, which is why I mention it now. Anyway, around 1 p.m. on Wednesday, December 4th, 1872, just over four weeks after the Mary Celeste had set sail.
The captain of the De Gratia received a report of a vessel heading towards their ship. He went out on the deck to have a look, and he saw a few weird things like right away. For one thing, the ship that seemed to be sailing towards them was moving very erratically, like its movements didn't really make sense. It was almost like no one was steering. Mm-hmm. And as it got closer, they noticed that the deck appeared to be empty, which was very strange.
Kathryn (18:41)
⁓
Gina (18:47)
They tried sending a few signals to the ship, but they didn't receive any reply. the captain his first and second mate out in a little boat to go over and like, hey, see what's up. They're not responding to our signals. Make sure that they are like okay and don't need any help or anything like that. The ship that they saw was, of course, the Mary Celeste. And when the first and the second mate from the De Gratia boarded the ship, they didn't see a single person on board.
They did go looking. They didn't just like hang out on the deck and be like, nobody's home. Bye. They did investigate, and they found a few more strange things. There were ropes hanging over the side of the ship. The main hatch to below deck was closed, but two of the smaller hatches were open. The lifeboat was missing. And there were three and a half feet or just over a meter of water in the hold. Which was like
A significant amount, but it wasn't enough to cause a panic on a ship like the Mary Celeste. It was big enough that it could hold a little bit of water and still be buoyant. The cabins were a little bit damaged from the water, but generally looked fine. The crew's belongings were all still there, as were the captain's and his families, with the exception of the captain's navigational tools. Those were gone, along with a few of his papers. There was no signs of fire.
No signs of violence. It truly just looked like everyone had calmly filed into the lifeboat and sailed away. And even the ship's logbook didn't offer any explanation as to what happened. The last entry in the Mary Celeste's logbook was dated nine days earlier on the 25th of November, and it didn't say anything about an emergency, anything that might be distressing. It just logged their position at the time, which was about 400 nautical miles away from where it was found.
Kathryn (20:39)
Yeah, that is so weird.
Gina (20:39)
Weird.
Agreed. And the first and second mate agreed with us as well. They were like, this is incredibly odd. And so they went back to the Daikratia to report their findings. I do want to say real quick, can you imagine how creepy it must have been for the two of them to be walking around the Mary Celeste and it's like a ghost town, no one's there.
Kathryn (20:56)
Yeah.
would be afraid that someone was gonna like jump out at me. Cause it's so unbelievable that someone that no one would be there.
Gina (21:03)
Me too.
Right. And every time they opened a door they must have been holding their breath, like, Okay, now we're gonna find a pile of bodies. Now we're gonna find someone with a gun or
Kathryn (21:09)
Yeah.
And it's like yeah, and
it's like, what are you gonna find? Like are you going to f especially if there's no ⁓ signs of any other ship around? It's like, well, there can't be a plunderer, you know, like I don't but is there? Who knows? I don't know. That'd be so disorienting.
Gina (21:16)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so the first and
incredibly disorient, especially when you're already out at sea for a lengthy period of time, and you know, that does things to your brain. It's difficult to be away from land for that long. So they go and report their findings to the captain of the De Gratia. He was a guy named David Morehouse. And together they decided to bring the Mary Celeste to Gibraltar. Because Gibraltar was pretty close by, and maritime law.
Kathryn (21:35)
Yeah. Right.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (21:56)
dictates that if you come across something like a shipwreck or an abandoned vessel and you salvage from it, you can keep a portion of its value. And the amount you get depends on how dangerous the salvaging was. It's a concept called a salvage reward, and it is my new life goal.
Kathryn (22:10)
⁓
Yeah, that's very genocoded.
Gina (22:16)
my god, I would love to salvage. There's one thing about me. So the captain of the De Gratia basically split his crew in half. Half of the crew sailed the De Gratia to Gibraltar, the other half sailed the Mary Celeste to Gibraltar. And sailing the two ships at the same time with the same amount of people as before, ⁓ was very difficult and very, very dangerous to do. It was described as like they didn't really sail to Gibraltar, they crawled.
Kathryn (22:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (22:46)
To Gibraltar because they were thinking like the amount we get we get rewarded goes up based on how dangerous the salvaging was, so this is worth all of the extra blood, sweat, and tears because we're gonna get so much more money for it. Unfortunately, it was not to be that easy. When they did manage to get to Gibraltar, the Mary Celeste was immediately impounded for salvage hearings.
Kathryn (22:46)
Mm.
Gina (23:10)
Which ⁓ that is apparently a normal thing because they have to make sure that you genuinely salvaged this stuff and didn't just like steal it. And so the hearing begins and it was conducted by a man who I can only describe as like a small man with big ego vibes. He was a guy named Frederick Solly Flood. He came from he yeah. Enough said, right? He like He came from an upper class background in England.
Kathryn (23:26)
Mm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (23:39)
He had gotten into some gambling trouble and he was basically like forced to accept the pos the position of attorney general in Gibraltar. So he had this like better than thou, I shouldn't have to be there kind of attitude. And he was the kind of guy where once he decided he was right about something, he was right. Like there was no swaying him. ⁓ personally, I feel like I have dated so many of this man, and he is the complete opposite of who you want presiding over a hearing.
Kathryn (24:02)
Gross.
Yeah.
This is I think one of my least favorite personality traits in people. Just like I've made the decision.
that's it full stop. And it's like, okay, what the hell? Who the hell are you, small man?
Gina (24:18)
Uhhuh.
Yes, incredibly frustrating. Like there are there's no reasoning with these types of people. And that's not the type of person you want running an investigation into what happened because they jumped to conclusions.
Kathryn (24:30)
Yeah.
Yeah. But it is the ex
Yeah, exactly. And like it is the exact type of person who is drawn to that type of position. You know, yeah, which is yeah. Mm-hmm.
Gina (24:42)
Hundred ⁓ yes, yeah, the power of it. Yeah. Yep.
And that's exactly the kind of guy this dude was. Like he did jump to a conclusion pretty much immediately. ⁓ he thought that it was fishy, there must have been foul play involved somewhere. He immediately distrusted the crew of the Daikratia. And so he ordered an investigation into the condition of the Mary Celeste, where they found a few additional things that the Daikratia crew had not found. So they found.
Kathryn (24:52)
Mm.
Gina (25:11)
Possible traces of blood on the captain's sword, which had which had been left behind. They also saw blood-like stains on one of the rails. There were cuts on either side of the bow as if by a sharp instrument. They found six months worth of food and water below decks. And they also found a this one's kind of funny, but it like interesting. They found a vial of sewing machine oil on a shelf.
Which they used as evidence that the s the ship hadn't suffered any like heavy weather. Because if it had, then that vial of oil would have fallen over. ⁓ which like it is smart, but it's also kind of dumb because it could have just been like put there by the De Gratio crew, because they were also sailing on this ship for a while. But they ignored that.
Kathryn (25:45)
interesting.
Yeah.
I think it's interesting
yeah, I just think it's interesting that that's the thing they chose to prove there was no weather, 'cause it's like was there nothing else that wasn't knocked over? Like why is that the one thing? I don't know. Yeah.
Gina (26:08)
Right? Yeah, agreed. Agreed.
They also checked the ship's cargo hold where those like bajillion barrels of alcohol were, and they found that nine of those barrels were empty.
Kathryn (26:23)
interesting.
Gina (26:24)
Yes.
So, with the evidence at hand, good man Frederick declared that what clearly happened was that the crew had drank the missing alcohol. The the crew of the Mary Celeste, that is, had drank the missing alcohol, and in a drunken rage, they had murdered the captain and his family, hence the bloodstains.
Kathryn (26:37)
Okay.
Gina (26:44)
And then ran away from the scene of the crime on a lifeboat, hence the missing lifeboat. There are a few issues with what Frederick decided happened. ⁓ first and foremost, there was an analysis of the quote bloodstains, and the analysis revealed that they weren't bloodstains. They were just red. It was likely the result of rust, seawater, and also neglect during the time where it was abandoned and before it was found, that kind of thing.
Kathryn (27:07)
Mm.
Gina (27:12)
And also, those cuts on the bow ⁓ were a completely normal result of sailing. They weren't evidence that there had been some big sword battle or anything like that. The ocean is just mean and it takes a toll on wood. So that's what that was. So without any actual evidence to back up his theory, Frederick was forced to release the Mary Celeste.
Kathryn (27:12)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (27:35)
And the De Gratia crew received a salvage reward of one-fifth of the total value of the Mary Celeste in her cargo. And that was a massive slap in the face they expected it to be like two or three times more than what it was. But Frederick and his boss, and this is kind of an aside, but it just pisses me off. His Frederick and his boss, who was the Chief Justice of Gibraltar,
We're so convinced that the De Gratia crew had something to do with this whole mystery that they just gave them a shit reward, even though they had like nothing to back it up. And as far as an official verdict on what happened to the Mary Celeste, this is kind of it. There wasn't an agreed-upon theory outside of the general opinion that something about this was really, really, really weird. Okay, so.
Kathryn (28:03)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (28:24)
What actually happened to this frickin' ship? We will get to the theories in a second, but before we do, I'm gonna give you just a quick rundown on the rest of the Mary Celeste's lifespan. Because I do, if curses exist, this ship was cursed. I do believe that. It was a very unpopular vessel after all of the abandonment and mysterious desertion stuff happened. ⁓ and because the ship was viewed as being cursed, sailors didn't want to sail on it.
They're a very superstitious folk, and so they had trouble actually getting business with the Mary Celeste for a long time. Eventually it was purchased at a discount, and a few years later, its new captain died after falling ill on board the ship, making him the third captain on the Mary Celeste to die long before his time. And by this point, the Mary Celeste had only had like five or six captains, so that's a big captain to untimely death ratio.
Kathryn (28:51)
Mm-hmm.
My goodness.
Yeah.
Gina (29:17)
After this, the ship became even more unpopular until eventually a guy named Gilman Parker captained the ship. And he had this like whole scheme cooked up with a group of other shippers where they filled the ship's cargo hold with basically junk, like worthless stuff, and then they insured it for way, way, way more than it was actually worth. And then Captain Parker deliberately sailed the Mary Celeste into a reef and wrecked her, like completely and totally beyond repairing.
Kathryn (29:30)
Yeah.
Gina (29:46)
And then he tried to like claim the insurance money on it. He was caught, he was put on trial, he was ultimately released, but his reputation was so completely ruined that he wound up dying in poverty three months later. One of Yeah. One of his ⁓ one of his co-defendants committed suicide shortly after this, and another one, quote, went mad.
Kathryn (29:59)
My god, what hell?
That's wild. Can you remind me? I I think I I missed so when after it was like salvaged or whatever by the crew, who had it in their possession to sell? Like whose was it?
Gina (30:09)
This ship has a dark history.
So
think it must have been it still belonged to the company that originally owned it, which I think was helmed by a guy I think his last name was Winchester. It might have been John Winchester. But basically it still had other owners.
Kathryn (30:31)
Okay.
⁓ bec
Okay, 'cause you said that he was just a part owner in it, right? The captain, it wasn't like his ship, it was multiple Okay, okay. I forgot about that. Gotcha. Okay. In my head it was his boat, but you did say he was co owner. Okay.
Gina (30:42)
Mm-hmm, correct.
Yeah, he he owned like eight fiftieths of it or something like that. Like a very like yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yep, and l most of the other owners were like on land back in New York, I think, or at least on the East Coast.
Kathryn (30:59)
Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Gina (32:02)
so we have reached the part where we're gonna talk about all the wild theories about the Mary Celeste now. Before I get into it, do you have any initial suspicions or theories to raise?
Kathryn (32:06)
Go ahead.
Yeah.
So my short answer is no, because I so I never knew the history of the boat. I've only ever heard theories. So I I was, as you were talking, I was hoping that there would be something that I would be like, ooh, I bet this, but I didn't know, I don't know.
Gina (32:32)
if anything sparks, as I'm like walking you through some of these theories, feel free to bring it up. When I was first researching this, my first thought was pirates. I thought like clearly this has to have been some kind of they were boarded, forcibly removed situation. ⁓ by this point in time the golden age of piracy was over, but they were definitely still around and they were known to prey on merchant vessels like the Mary
Kathryn (32:35)
Yeah.
Mm.
Mm.
Gina (32:55)
if that is the case, if this really was pirates that did this, why didn't they take the rest of the cargo? There was only nine barrels of alcohol missing, and the barrels weren't missing. The alcohol inside the barrels was missing. So they would so if it was pirates, they would have had to go on board, get everyone off the ship, and then somehow get the alcohol from nine barrels into some different container, leaving the barrels there and then bounce.
Kathryn (33:01)
Yeah.
Gina (33:19)
While leaving the crew's possessions, the captain's possessions. Like it just doesn't it would the risk would not be worth the reward if that was the case.
Kathryn (33:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, and isn't it like nothing really seemed disturbed? Like there wasn't there weren't signs of a kerfuffle. And I'm thinking like if someone yeah, if someone's on board ransacking the place, there would be so many signs of a struggle, you know,
Gina (33:33)
No struggle.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And normally I would I'm nine times out of ten, if it could have been pirates, I'll like, Hell yeah, it was pirates. Why not? This is just not one of those times or if it was pirates, they were like the world's worst pirates.
Kathryn (33:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Or it's like, were they the best? Like what was on what was there some well, because we still don't know, because they were never caught, you know? And it's like, I I do wonder, wait, do I think it's pirates now? Because I think, like, what if someone had something on board with them that they were like, we want that one thing? Do you know what I mean? Like she had a diamond necklace or or whatever, just whatever. I don't know. Or it was like on their person. So it was like, we just need to get the people.
Gina (34:02)
True. That's true. Yeah.
That is very true. Yeah.
Kathryn (34:24)
But there would still be a kerfuffle. Like there would still be signs of struggle. So never mind. No pirates. Yeah, no pirates.
Gina (34:28)
There would still be a kerfuffle, yeah. Yeah. And I do
I do I wish it was pirates though. But just the idea of it being like, the diamond necklace, but then also we gotta put the nine barrels of alcohol into this big bowl, boys. Like it just doesn't I don't know. It doesn't
Kathryn (34:40)
Yeah. Who's got that call? Bucket.
They're just like chilling on board, like having a drink Yeah, no pirates.
Gina (34:47)
It just doesn't check out. ⁓
No, no pirates. So a lot of people think that it instead was an inside job. It was some skullduggery. And this argument hinges on the fact that the Mary Celeste was extremely well insured. ⁓ If something were to happen to it, people were gonna make a lot of money. And therefore, who stands to benefit the most from this happening? Inside job. People started suggesting that the captains of both the Mary Celeste.
Kathryn (35:08)
Mm.
Gina (35:21)
And the De Gratias were involved. These folks thought that the captains conspired to set the whole thing up so that they could split the salvage money. This is also incredibly unlikely because one, if you are trying to commit fraud successfully, you don't wanna do it in a big, ostentatious, dramatic way. You wanna fly under the radar. And an abandoned seaworthy cargo ship with months of provisions.
being abandoned is super dramatic and attention getting. So that I just don't believe. And two, if Captain Briggs from the Mary Celeste was really planning on pulling a disappearing act to get away with all of this cash he was supposedly gonna get, why would he leave his son behind?
Kathryn (35:47)
Yeah.
That's the one thing. I'm like, unless they unless this kid was really annoying, that just doesn't make sense. Right. Like But so I mean, what year was this taking place in?
Gina (36:08)
It's alright, we'll just have another one, honey. That one was practice.
eighteen seventy two.
Kathryn (36:20)
Nobody's ditching a firstborn son in eighteen seventy two for anything, no matter how annoying that kid was.
Gina (36:22)
Mm mm No ma'am
That is such a I didn't even think about that. That's such a good point.
Kathryn (36:32)
Yeah, nobody's ditching a son. If anything, they would have left her.
Gina (36:36)
Yes. Yeah, totally. And so a lot of people think, all right, well like, just because Captain Briggs wasn't involved doesn't mean it wasn't an inside job. Like it still could have been some kind of foul play angle from the De Gratia crew. because I mean it I do I understand the reasoning behind that one because it is wildly unlikely that in the big, vast wide ocean you would just happen to stumble upon an empty ship.
Kathryn (36:37)
Truly, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (37:04)
With a cargo that's worth a small fortune. That is incredible luck. So this theory posits that the De Gratia was actually lying in wait for the Mary Celeste, and that they tricked their crew into coming aboard the De Gratia only to kill them, toss the bodies, and take the ship.
Kathryn (37:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (37:22)
But this also cannot really be true. Because like I said earlier, the De Gratia left America over a week after the Mary Celeste did. And the De Gratia was a much, much slower ship.
Kathryn (37:32)
Yeah.
Gina (37:36)
Which means that even if it did intend to sneak up on the Mary Celeste and capture it, it never would have caught up with it in time. It's like if you or I planned on capturing a race car by riding a segway. Like we could try, but it would not work, you know?
Kathryn (37:53)
Yeah, I'm I don't have the energy to try someone like that. I would love to see that happen though.
Gina (37:56)
No.
I mean, I was enjoying the mental image when I when I wrote that one in my script. Because I'm picturing you on in like an incredibly slow segue.
Kathryn (38:10)
I'm
imagining myself with ⁓ that unicorn helmet. Have you ever seen those? The little girl I used to nanny had one of those and I was so jealous every time we'd go out on the bike and be, God, that's so cute, I want one somebody on.
Gina (38:17)
Yeah.
I remember when I was a kid I always wanted one of the dinosaur ones where they had like the big spikes on the helmet.
Kathryn (38:30)
that's what yeah, she had a horn on the helmet and then these little eyeballs. Yeah. I don't remember the dinosaur ones. That'd be cool.
Gina (38:32)
⁓ I'm I'm jealous that's cool.
Th that just ⁓ triggered a thought. This is such a tangent. But yesterday Tom was looking at things on Vinted and he he basically he keeps seeing something that he thinks is like a really cool shirt and then he clicks on it and it's children's clothing. And it reminded me of like you were cause we talk about this all the time. Kids have the cutest clothes.
Kathryn (38:51)
Mm-hmm.
All the time.
Colette's birthday, I'm a mess every time. She gets the cutest things for her birthday. And I'm always so jealous all the time. Like the dresses she gets. Ugh. And it's like, okay, I've Yes, that is on my birthday list. It's like I I listen, I know I had my time. I
Gina (39:01)
Ha ha ha.
It's not fair.
And what do we get? Chinos.
Kathryn (39:25)
also had a closet full of adorable dresses when I was little. I just like, man, I'm sure they do make things like that in women's sizes, but they're always it's like the mommy and me places where the mommy's dress is three hundred dollars, you know? It's really frustrating. Yeah.
Gina (39:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, it's so expensive.
Kathryn (39:47)
Anyway. I know, it's okay. We just gotta take it back, all right?
Gina (39:47)
I don't know how to transition this back to a ship mystery.
Just a hard transition. So if this wasn't an inside job,
if it wasn't an inside job and it also was not pirates, what could it be? Because with the missing lifeboat and all the possessions that they left behind, there has to have been something that caused them to abandon the ship in a hurry. And so a lot of people say that it could have been a natural disaster. And there is actually a little bit of evidence.
evidence to support this one because during the investigation, they had found what what's basically a water measurement rod on the deck. It's basically what you use to make sure that you're not taking on water too quickly. Ideally there would be no water at all in the hold, but in the event that there is, you need to know whether or not it's like emergency abandon the ship now levels. at some point,
The Mary Celeste's crew had taken this measurement, and we know that because the rod was on the deck. And remember, there was three and a half feet of water in the hold. So some say the water had gotten into the ship because they encountered a water spout, which is basically like a tornado over the water. And that by using the sounding rod, they would measure the water and see that it was increasing and increasing and increasing. Panic, get off the boat, water spout goes away.
Ship's actually fine. You're now on a lifeboat that can't catch up to the main ship. You drift apart. That's one of the theories. Some people also say that it could have been a stray iceberg, which is technically possible, but pretty much impossible in this area of the world. This is like the Mediterranean kind of area. Not exactly, but this is not really where icebergs tend to hang out.
Kathryn (41:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (41:35)
Some people also say it could have been an underwater earthquake that freaked everyone out to the point where they abandoned ship. Personally, my issue with the natural disaster theory is that if there is a natural disaster and you have the option of being on a massive ship or a tiny lifeboat, you're gonna pick massive ship.
Kathryn (41:53)
Yes.
That's what I was gonna I was going to ask you that question because I was like, I don't know if this is something I just don't know because I am not at sea and you know, I don't know these things. Like, is there any reason to be in a tiny little rowboat versus a ship? Doesn't seem like there would be.
Gina (42:16)
Not that I can think of.
Kathryn (42:18)
Like not out in the middle of the ocean.
Gina (42:20)
Yeah, I can't think unless you were unless the weather was fine and you knew you'd be okay, but something was so wrong with the big ship that you knew it was going down Don't know. Which brings me to by far the most popular theory, which is the explosion theory.
Kathryn (42:28)
Yeah.
What? I don't think I've heard this. Jesus Christ.
Gina (42:38)
⁓ Okay. ⁓
I just I love it. So the ship's log mentions rumbling sounds coming from the hold where they kept all of those barrels of alcohol. It also mentions that they experienced a short stint of rough weather, which caused them to close the hatches leading down to the hold. Now going back to those nine empty barrels that I keep talking about.
It turns out that those barrels were made from a different kind of wood than the other barrels. They were made from red oak, whereas I think the others were made from white oak. And red oak is very porous. And so it's completely possible, and in fact, likely that the alcohol inside those nine barrels would have oozed out. Think of like condensation on a cold glass, just seeps out of the container. And when that process happens with barrels of industrial strength alcohol,
Kathryn (43:21)
Mm.
Gina (43:34)
It causes the release of highly flammable ethanol into the air. And because the hatches were closed, there was nowhere for all that ethanol to go, which means that any spark, maybe from two barrels rubbing together or from a flame lamp, could have caused that ethanol to ignite, which would have resulted in an explosion that would have blown those two smaller hatches up and a bunch of flame would have shot out of it. And that
Could have freaked everyone out and gotten everyone panicking so badly that the captain could have ordered everyone onto the lifeboat to escape the fire. The issue with this is that there were no scorch marks, there was no soot, there wasn't any kind of fire damage visible on the ship, which seems like it disproves this theory, but in 2006, scientists recreated this theory on a smaller scale, including creating an explosion, and they found that it left no fire damage.
Kathryn (44:13)
Yeah.
Gina (44:30)
Even when the scientists used paper to represent the barrels, there was no fire damage. And in 2026, this very year, the experiment was repeated with an even more lifelike recreation of the hold, including some of the materials that would have been used on the actual Mary Celeste. And again, there was an explosion, but there was no fire damage. Because it's the alcohol that's burning, it's not the material under it.
And alcohol burns really, really fast, meaning that it might not have had time to catch on anything else on the ship. But of course, the captain and the crew wouldn't have known this, and it still would have scared the absolute hell out of them, causing them to abandon ship.
Kathryn (45:15)
Okay, so this definitely seems most likely. My question is if the alcohol burns so quickly, would they have had time to load up the lifeboat and get the hell out of there before it stopped burning and they realized like everything was
Gina (45:33)
I don't know.
I do not know. What I think could have happened is there was that initial bit because they would have been hearing like kind of rumbling sounds from below deck for a while. And so I'm assuming like smaller versions of this explosion had happened already. They just didn't see it because the hatches were closed. And then when there was the big one and the hatches blew open and flames came out, I don't know that they would have said, Hey, let's wait around to see. Maybe it'll die down. And even when they like get into the lifeboat, because that would take a second to get everyone in there.
Kathryn (45:36)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (46:05)
I personally still wouldn't be like, let's go down there and check if everything's okay. I would be out of there super fast, you know? So I think it could have just been blind panic. Also, I think that the f the fact that the captain's family was on board probably exacerbated this decision making and the speed with which they abandoned. Yes.
Kathryn (46:09)
Yeah.
Yeah.
goes so fast. Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Gina (46:24)
a lot of people consider this mystery to be solved because of this theory. ⁓ which, like, it does bother me when people say this is a solved mystery because where did the captain crew and his family go? Like that question has never been answered. why were they never seen again? That's a whole other side to this thing. But needless to say, going back to the what happened on the actual boat mystery, I find this science backed explanation to be a little bit boring.
Kathryn (46:24)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Gina (46:50)
So instead, I want to talk about how it could have been a giant squid attack.
Kathryn (46:59)
Okay, finally, my goodness.
Gina (46:59)
We're getting into the fun theories part of this episode now. I know you've been waiting so patiently.
So, the giant squid theory was first floated in 1904, and it suggests that everyone on board the Mary Celeste was picked off one by one by a giant squid. Which technically is not outside the realms of possibility. Giant squids have been known to attack ships.
One thing that people always call out though to say, no, it couldn't have been a giant squid, is that the captain's navigational instruments were missing. And so people say, yeah, squid could have grabbed the captain, but why would he grab the captain's sextant and other navigational tools? To which I say captain could have been holding them.
Kathryn (47:45)
Yeah. What okay, so what were the Okay, so navigational equipment. What what's that? Like a compass? Or is it like a whole Okay, okay.
Gina (47:52)
Little stuff. Yeah. Like
compass and then remember ⁓ in like geometry we had those like protractor thingies, like the little they've shaped like a V. There's something like that. Like that's a sextant and you use that for navigating in the water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So things like that. So so small things that you could reasonably hold or even put in your pocket.
Kathryn (48:00)
My god, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. You use it on the map. Okay. Okay. I just yeah. He okay.
I'm imagining one of those like like an like one of those like soundboard looking things. You know what I mean? Like in the airplane. You know, all the buttons. Yeah.
Gina (48:22)
Yeah.
Kathryn (48:29)
don't they use that to navigate? I don't know what goes on. I don't know what goes on and that's why I was like, that can't be right, but I don't know, like yeah, I just I don't know. The wheel yeah, the yeah.
Gina (48:32)
I don't know if they had that in eighteen seventy two. That's that's true, that's fair. Or like the what is it called? The wheel. The ship wheel.
So yes, could have been a giant squid, technically. A lot of people also point out that the giant squid does not explain the lifeboat missing. to which I say maybe giant squid was picking people off, somebody panicked, didn't think it through, got into the lifeboat to try and get away, and then the giant squid took the whole thing down.
Kathryn (48:54)
Right.
So when we say giant squid picking people off, do we mean his tentacles coming up, plucking them and or okay? Sweet. I just because I know that like I've seen those videos of an octopus kind of slinking on board and you know what I
Gina (49:13)
That's what I picture.
Mm.
I guess it could've it could have been that. I was picturing full on sea monster, like tentacles emerging from the deep, taking people into it, you know.
Kathryn (49:25)
Just
Yeah.
Like when Ursula gets real big in the Little Mermaid. Yeah.
Gina (49:34)
Yes. Precise so
that that's a actually another popular theory is that it was in fact Ursula from I'm just kidding. That's the i Scream You Scream theory. ⁓ other people think it could have been an alien abduction. So this episode could have been an alien month.
Kathryn (49:40)
That's my theory.
Yeah.
Okay. I don't think I've heard this one. As you're speaking, I will say Okay. I will say I won't say it yet. I wanna see if you say it, but I do rem as you're speaking, I am reminded that I feel like I do have a I have had a theory in the past and I wanna see if it's one that you'll talk about. But continue with the alien. I I don't know this one.
Gina (49:55)
Well, I have I have issues with it.
Ooh, okay.
Okay, sweet. I
think I only have one more after the alien one. So we're very close to the end of the theories. So, alien thing. My issue with the they were abducted by aliens theory is that the main guy behind it, who's a UFOologist named MK Jessup. he has a quote about this whole thing that I find to just be incredibly pompous, which makes me want to discredit this theory entirely. so the quote is.
Kathryn (50:16)
Okay. Okay.
Okay, what is it?
Gina (50:41)
To attempt to postulate motive for space inhabitants kidnapping crews from ships is in the realm of pure speculation.
Just say you don't fucking know. Like that's all that means. Like can you imagine if someone asked you a question and you were like, to attempt to postulate. Like, fuck off. Like it just pisses me off. So couldn't have been aliens because I hate this guy.
Kathryn (50:52)
Yeah, yeah, that's rough.
Ha ha ha
Yeah.
Sweet.
Gina (51:11)
And the last theory that I do want to tell you about is that the Mary Celeste was somehow the victim of the Bermuda Triangle.
Kathryn (51:19)
⁓ I feel like it
Gina (51:20)
Episode
one of Bodies of Water Month Baby Bermuda Triangle.
Kathryn (51:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. That one I've definitely heard. 'Cause
Gina (51:27)
It it's
it gets f floated every now and then, yeah. Thank you. Thanks.
Kathryn (51:30)
Yeah. Nice. Good job. That was a good one. You're welcome.
Yeah. Man, I haven't talked about the Bermuda Triangle in a long time.
Gina (51:38)
Listen, it's up there with ⁓ quicksand in things that I thought would be a much bigger problem when I was a child than in actuality.
Kathryn (51:40)
Yep. Quicksand. Yeah. Absolutely.
Gina (51:45)
Yeah. I do want to talk about the Bermuda Triangle in more depth on this podcast someday. But in the case of the Mary Celeste, it is so very unlikely as to be impossible. ⁓ the Mary Celeste was found on the complete opposite side of the ocean. And the Bermuda Triangle would have been just extremely wildly out of its way. yeah. There is kind of no like
Kathryn (51:51)
Mm-hmm.
That's what I was gonna ask, 'cause they were going from New York over to yeah, that wouldn't make
sense. Yeah.
Gina (52:12)
Personally, I think giant
squid is more likely than Bermuda Triangle. And Giant Squid is funny, but I don't actually believe it happened, you know?
Kathryn (52:18)
Yeah.
Okay. Okay, interesting.
Gina (52:21)
So what's your th I'm done with theories. You wanna throw one at me?
Kathryn (52:24)
I don't know how to phrase it, ⁓ something something accidentally got poisoned, went crazy, and everyone just threw themselves overboard.
Gina (52:35)
Ooh, okay, so I didn't read about that specific one, but I read something similar, which was a theory that Captain Briggs, who was known to be a very religious guy, ⁓ basically that he lost his mind and like went into a religious fervor and murdered ⁓ his family, which either he then murdered the crew or it caused the crew to murder him for, you know, revenge for his family. It kind of depends on the theory that you go with. ⁓ and that basically it just devolved into a big murder party.
Kathryn (52:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Gina (53:05)
that we know about Captain Briggs points to him being an incredibly well-liked, well-respected. He like he was incredibly experienced. Like there there was simply no indication. Like the yes, technically could have happened. There is zero evidence to support that.
Kathryn (53:09)
⁓ okay.
Yeah. some weird religious guy's trying to kill me, I'm like knocking shit over and there's gonna be stuff thrown about and there you know, like I'm stuck on the whole there was no sign of a struggle of any kind. That is like the one that I keep going to. So yeah, I wonder if it was either
Gina (53:27)
Good point.
Kathryn (53:41)
Like they were drinking this alcohol or some of their food went bad, or something. There was a communal something that made I feel like the only way that would make sense is if they all went crazy.
Gina (53:46)
Mm.
Kathryn (53:54)
And they just like lost their minds and hallucinated and like got the fuck out of there and nothing was actually happening. Maybe they did think there was a giant squid, but like there really wasn't, or something like that.
Gina (54:01)
Yeah.
You know what it reminds me of? This story reminds me so much of Roanoke.
Kathryn (54:11)
I yes, honestly, to the point where when I was a little bit younger, I would get those two stories kind of mixed up. Like I would I I would think that the ship was called Roanoke. Like until I started hearing the story and it's like, okay, yeah. Yeah, because they're two stories that will never be 100% solved. They can't be, even if it sounds like the fire thing is probably the most likely.
Gina (54:18)
Fair, completely fair.
Mm.
Kathryn (54:36)
But because there are still like just a couple of things that are like, okay, but what about this or what about that? Or like it's just been too many years. We'll never know for sure.
Gina (54:45)
Hundred percent. Yeah. I do like trying to guess, but I I do find it infuriating, especially because it's one thing to figure out what happened to the ship, but what the hell happened to the people? Like
Kathryn (54:49)
Yeah. I know me too.
Cause how far were they from land?
Gina (55:01)
I don't know off the top of my head.
Kathryn (55:02)
Okay,
okay. I didn't I just didn't know if you said and I missed it
Gina (55:05)
They wouldn't ha I mean, based on my understanding of the ocean and the way that tides and swimming work. I don't think that they would've well okay, actually, I'm gonna immediately take back what I'm gonna say, because we don't actually know when the ship was abandoned. We know when the last logbook entry was. We don't know where it was when the people dipped. So the answer to that could change. Nine days. Nine days. Yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (55:20)
That's yeah, that's fair. Okay. Cause that was what did you say n yeah, 'cause you said that was like nine days before they found it. Okay.
Which would have been 'cause they left about a week later. So they would have I mean, it probably was shortly after that. But but but like who knows? It could have been the day before.
Gina (55:43)
And even that, like, once
and once they got to land, assuming they got to land, I mean, this is 1872 we're talking about. It's not exactly Marco Polo era. Like, there are ways to get back to New yeah, it would take a while, but especially if you're an experienced ship captain, like you would be able to get back and make yourself known again, which leads me to believe that they were either like captured or they died, or maybe they were stranded at sea and never found. Like, I don't know.
Kathryn (55:59)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (56:09)
But
Kathryn (56:10)
Yeah, because that could I mean, people get lost at sea to this day. So it's like there is, you know, if you're just in a little dinky maybe there maybe something happened not weather related when they were on the ship, but something absolutely could have happened after they were in the boat and then, you know, then they got hit with like a storm or whatever, who knows?
Gina (56:14)
Mm.
True. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, they forgot to bring the motorized engine to put on the back of it.
Kathryn (56:37)
A big mistake.
Gina (56:39)
That's what I learned at sea captain school. Bring bring electricity into the water with ya.
Kathryn (56:40)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (56:48)
Okay, so theories aside, there are actually quite a lot of misconceptions about the Mary Celeste that I want to talk about real quick, just so later on, when we're all dusting off our corkboard and red string, ⁓ we are equipped with the actual facts. Most, if not all, of these misconceptions come from Arthur Conan Doyle of Sherlock Holmes authorship fame.
Kathryn (57:00)
Ha
Okay, interesting.
I feel like he's involved in a lot of stuff. Have we talked about him before? We I f yeah. What episode I remember he was involved in some other story. I don't remember what it was though.
Gina (57:13)
Just stuck his nose and all sorts we definitely have talked about him on the podcast before.
He was big on ⁓ having opinions on things. Like he would write ⁓ yeah, like opinion pieces that would get publicized and things like that. But this was actually so interestingly, this the piece that he did on the Mary Celeste was one of his premier works. Like this is often seen as the thing that launched his writing career. ⁓ because he he wound up writing this thing, it was a short story called J. Habakuk Jephson's Statement.
Kathryn (57:26)
Yeah, seems like it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (57:49)
And it was a fictionalized short story told from the perspective of a surviving passenger named J. Habakuk Jephson Celeste did not have passengers. It wasn't a passenger ship, it was a cargo ship. So that's kind of issue number one. ⁓ the story included details like when the ship was found, there was still warm cooked food on plates. That's a misconception. And that also ⁓ that the ship's name was the Marie Celeste.
Kathryn (58:02)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, I've heard that. Yeah. Okay.
Gina (58:17)
Which is untrue. It was the Mary Celeste, but he renamed it the Marie Celeste just for this short story. and both of those things are false, but it's incredibly common to see them stated as fact. I came across it like a million times in my research. in fact, even when this story was published, which was a little bit over a decade after the Mary Celeste was found, not everyone realized it was fictional, to the point where the Boston Herald reprinted it as an actual true story.
Kathryn (58:23)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
That that makes sense because that is part of my poisoning theory. Like whatever they were eating is what made them go cra that was that warm food on the plate is what made them go nuts and like jump overboard.
Gina (58:53)
Okay. Mm-hmm.
I mean that's very compelling imagery. Like abandoned ship with warm steaming food still on the plates. That it it adds another layer, and I get why it's a detail he added, but 'twasn't true.
Kathryn (59:02)
Yeah. A set table? Yeah. Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Interesting. But he wasn't presenting it as fact, correct? Like it was just misunderstood as okay, okay.
Gina (59:15)
No. He
was very surprised that people thought it was true. He was like, What? No, I didn't mean it. But he also I think part of it was he didn't he wasn't famous at this time. So he ⁓ the author he remained anonymous. And so I think people thought, there's no author, the author must be this J. Habakuk Jephson guy, you know? And this wound up launching his writing career.
Kathryn (59:21)
Interesting. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean
That's f wild. That's
Gina (59:41)
Ri of all the things
I didn't expect to come up.
Kathryn (59:44)
I didn't realize A, he did any of that. I didn't realize that the food thing wasn't real. And I didn't realize it was like a thing that launched him. Like this is blowing my mind.
Gina (59:54)
Mm-hmm.
it's it makes sense when I think about it because he winds up becoming w one of if not the most well known mystery writers in the entire world and he starts his career by piggybacking off of what is essentially the perfect mystery, an an unsolvable mystery. Yeah.
Kathryn (1:00:11)
To this day, yeah.
Gina (1:00:13)
Yeah. So these days, most interested parties do subscribe to the explosion theory. But ultimately, like we've been saying, what happened to the Mary Celeste is still a mystery. And even the best theory is just an educated guess, and not the closed case that some would have you believe. But I'm going to end on a piece of information that did bring me some comfort, because as I keep bringing up in the grand scheme of this mystery, the fact that the captain, his family, and his crew
was never found, just boggles my mind. And it's also very often treated as like a secondary piece of information rather than the tragedy that it is. So I'm just gonna say that on Spencer's Island where the Mary Celeste was built, there is a monument to those who were lost on the Mary Celeste. Yeah. So that that brought me some comfort.
Kathryn (1:00:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
⁓ that's nice.
Yeah, I always am just so deeply bodied bodied. Hello. So deeply bothered by like a forever lost body. You know, like I always anytime I watch like a true crime or anything like that, that they just were never found. It just it's like a specific type of sad because there's always going to be a piece of you.
Gina (1:01:09)
Mm.
Kathryn (1:01:31)
Wondering if they're gonna come back. Even if it's definitive, like obviously by now we know they're not coming back, but like, man, for the rest of your life, there's always a chance, even if it's like definitively proven that they are very likely dead. It's like without that physical proof, you just are never gonna know for sure. And I hate that feeling. I hate that people have to feel that, and that's just awful.
Gina (1:01:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The curse of not knowing. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah. So there is at least something paying homage to the lost family. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure their families grieved too. I'm not trying to pretend like the world completely forgot about them, but just in the legacy of how we speak about the Mary Celeste today, it's just kinda like they disappeared, but what happened to the ship? Yeah. And granted, I know I just spent an hour talking about the ship. So like I'm also part of the problem, but at least there's something.
Kathryn (1:01:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. At least they have a spot. Yeah.
Yeah.
Tell me about the ship. Right. Right.
Gina (1:02:26)
yeah, that's ⁓ that's all I got. That's the Mary Celeste.
Kathryn (1:02:27)
Damn. Yeah, w
I didn't yeah, thank you for sharing that story. I didn't know what
This episode was gonna be like because to me it was just I knew about the ship floating at sea. I didn't know any of like the history or anything like that. You could have said literally anything and my mind would be blown. So I know the episode title is just Kraken Did It. Yeah. As he usually does.
Gina (1:02:44)
damn it. I should have led with giant squid.
Davy Jones done did it. ⁓ so do you have
do you have a story for me?
Kathryn (1:03:02)
So I don't have a story, but I do have a little something. I
I usually struggle around the summer solstice, which in recent years I've been feeling bad about because all seasons are wonderful, blah, blah, blah. But to make myself feel better, I made a lot of purchases during a lot of different summer sales. And I bought
What is my new favorite Oracle deck?
Gina (1:03:32)
I've never had an Oracle deck before. I don't know much about them.
Kathryn (1:03:32)
And let me girl, so
my gosh, my goodness. Okay. Sorry, that was so elderly of me. No, it's just so my I just have to go on a tangent now. My first Oracle deck is this like goddess Oracle deck that I bought with my babysitting money when I was like 14 or 15 years old. And it's the only one I've had all these years. I just always go back to it until I found this one.
Gina (1:03:39)
Sorry, I just dropped a hole.
⁓
Kathryn (1:04:00)
there was a sale on L Llewellyn's books and it is called Haunted Cottage Oracle. Is that so beautiful? And it arguably does have kind of fall vibes, but this artwork is so like spooky summer ween kind of vibes. I don't know if you can see. It's just very like, yeah.
Gina (1:04:07)
my god, cute. Yeah.
Ooh. ⁓ cute, yeah.
Kathryn (1:04:27)
This is not sponsored or anything. I just, ⁓ here. Okay, so there's one that's Thunderstorm. Very like summer storm coded. This is like my new summer thing. So I kind of like that you're not super familiar with Oracle decks because I want to do a little Oracle reading for us. so basically, I mean it's basically just tarot, but in a more like
Gina (1:04:35)
I love that.
Love to
Kathryn (1:04:55)
general fortune-telling way. They're just cards that say whatever. Like this is literally just the thunderstorm card, the waterfall card. They're, you know, like just whatever artist is doing it makes up whatever they want. And then like the meanings are just whatever you want. So it's just, yeah, whatever vibe. Yeah, exactly. Yes. So typically when I do a reading for my can you hear those birds? There's like a
Gina (1:05:14)
I love that. Very intuitive.
I can. And I like that they're chirpining
now that we're doing this. It's cute. It's like they're excited for us.
Kathryn (1:05:26)
Okay. Okay. I just
want to make sure that you can okay. ⁓ so typically when I do tarot for myself, I usually will use tarot deck and an Oracle deck and just pull Oracle as like a general vibe thing. But I'm just gonna go with the Oracle deck now because I I've only used it once and I just think these images are very pretty. So okay. So
Gina (1:05:47)
I was so excited.
Kathryn (1:05:52)
Do you want it to be do you want me to just do a ⁓ pull one for you or do we want to do one for us or the podcast or how how do you want to do it?
Gina (1:06:01)
can we do one for how we're gonna get through the summer?
Kathryn (1:06:05)
Okay, yeah, yeah, let's do that. That's a good one. Yeah. Yeah. Which girl, I'm trying. I'm like, I'm trying to like this is like a goal of mine the last few years to like embrace the changing seasons. And I've gotten better about spring. I I used to not enjoy spring because it meant summer was coming. through spring. I'm good. I'm just, I'm still working on the summer. So let's let my impulse purchase tell us how we can.
Gina (1:06:06)
I I want it to be false so bad. Tell us how to go forward.
Kathryn (1:06:32)
Make it through.
I didn't walk through this. Do you wanna tell me when to stop?
Gina (1:06:36)
⁓
Stop, please.
Kathryn (1:06:45)
my gosh, we got the first picture that I showed you. Acorns. Number one. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, just ominously gaze out the window at the haunting summer. Okay, let's see. This is number one. This is card number one.
Gina (1:06:49)
Really? ⁓ okay, so stay inside where it's
Kathryn (1:07:04)
Acorns are a powerful symbol of potential, representing the journey toward authenticity and growth. Their humble beginnings remind us that embracing our true selves, imperfections and all is the foundation for real transformation. This car is trying to get us to like summer. Fuck this dude. Okay. As seeds of growth, acorns remind us of the value of preparation and the strength that comes from laying a sound a solid foundation.
Gina (1:07:19)
I know.
Kathryn (1:07:29)
The ghost represents the clarity that comes when you embrace your authentic self and begin anew. the timing of everything is divinely orchestrated. If you feel unprepared, no you are never placed in a situation you can't handle. Challenges, challenges arise because you have the capacity to overcome them. Life's adventures unfold for you.
Gina (1:07:43)
Damn it.
Kathryn (1:07:51)
unfold for you, not to you. Relationships that didn't work out or opportunities that passed you by were always part of a greater plan to guide you toward what's meant for you. Let go of forcing outcomes or dwelling on unmet expectations. Things will unfold when the time is right. Release guilt from past mistakes. Mistakes are teachers that show the way forward. This is very long, sorry. It's okay to go your own way. Stop trying to meet societal expectations of who you should be. Embrace your true self, imperfections and all.
Take charge of your own life. Be an active participant. I feel like I'm getting mixed messages. Some sentences I'm like, okay, my authentic self hates summer. But then the next one will be like, embrace change. I'm like, well, I guess I do embrace change. So maybe that is part of my authentic self, but.
Gina (1:08:30)
Yeah.
You know what I'm getting from it? And I will say, there was a small part of me that was hoping you would flip a card and the card would say, no problem, I'll make it autumn right now, and the weather would just change immediately. Magically. That is nice. So what I'm getting from it is just because it's summer doesn't mean we have to let autumn lie. You can bring the pieces of autumn and spooky season to the summer in ways that work for you. If you have acorns, put acorns on your table. You can get little ceramic pumpkins and use them as tea lights, or you could also hibernate.
Kathryn (1:08:43)
Well yeah.
There are some autumn leaves back there in the window.
Yeah.
Gina (1:09:10)
For months and months and months and only crawl out of your cave when it's time. But you know what I mean? Like there there can be autumnal elements to the summer.
Kathryn (1:09:12)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (1:09:21)
I mean
I guess summer is just kind of baby autumn.
Toddler autumn?
Kathryn (1:09:27)
Yeah.
It is. I'm just trying to like make myself feel it. Like I'm trying to make this ⁓ I'm just very aware that it's ⁓ gonna be 90 degrees all next week. In my head. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. As you were saying, you could bring elements of autumn into the summer. The first thing that happened in my head was, yeah, like air conditioning.
Gina (1:09:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's yeah. I'm saying I'm saying this is I'm pouring sweat.
I mean, yeah,
you can make it really cold inside your house and have some hot chocolate. That sounds good.
Kathryn (1:09:59)
You know, that's
that's what we do. We will like cran we don't do it all the time because we have such an old and drafty ho old for the US, I should say, old and drafty house that we have to have our AC up higher than we would like. But as a little treat, we will occasionally like crank it for like just a weekend and like put our hoodies on and snuggle on the couch and like drink hot tea and just Yeah. We can't do that all the time though.
Gina (1:10:20)
Mm.
That is so nice. I think I think
the Oracle deck is telling you to do that soon.
Kathryn (1:10:29)
yeah, maybe it's time when it turns 90 degrees. Maybe I'll just like have the AC a little lower for just a day or two, just to like initial. Okay, yeah, I that's my interpretation of this. Alright. Yeah, we'll make it. Alright. Exactly. Yeah. I wonder what I'll I wonder what ingredients I'll have next week.
Gina (1:10:43)
Okay, that gives me some hope. We can get through the summer.
One ice cream float at a time.
Kathryn (1:10:54)
but yeah if you guys want to hear us read out any stories or if you have any Oracle readings you want to share with us, send them over to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com
If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review wherever you listen. And just a reminder that we do post more each month over on our Patreon. So go join us over there. And yeah, until next time, Little Spoons, keep it cool.
Gina (1:11:19)
Keep it creepy.
