Ep. 59: Bloody Mary
Kathryn (00:10)
You know what we haven't done in a while is breathe.
Gina (00:13)
Jesus, I forgot about breathing.
Kathryn (00:15)
I also like, breathed doesn't sound like a word. I kind of feel like I should have said brunth, which isn't- it's like super not a word.
Gina (00:19)
even BRUNTH!
breath.
Brave.
Kathryn (00:26)
Breathe in.
Gina (00:27)
Breathe it. Breathe it your deepest breath.
Kathryn (00:30)
We've not breathed it in quite a while. Would you like to take... Hey, wait, we could just leave all this in. Remember we've talked about inviting people to take a breath with us? You wanna just take a breath? Take a brunth? Ready, set, set, go.
Gina (00:33)
Many moons.
Yeah, yeah, let's all take a brunth.
Man, I feel like I was clearing out some rust there.
Kathryn (00:56)
Excellent! Wonderful! That's good! Alright, I'm just gonna keep going. Cinnamon's all up in my face. We're ready to go. Hello everyone! Welcome to I Scream You Scream We are your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Kathryn.
Gina (00:57)
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (01:14)
And we are talking about ghosts this month and in celebration of the end of the year and the wind down season, we will be telling stories along with a cocktail. Before we jump into the story, we want to give a quick shout out to our new Patreon member, Kiara. Thank you so much for joining us. We're very excited to have you. And if any of you listening want to join the fun over on Patreon, link will always be in the show notes, we’ve got behind-the-scenes content, bonus minsodes, a whole bunch a good stuff. Until then, grab a spoon and let’s dig in. I should say grab a cocktail today. What drank are you dranking?
Gina (01:35)
Woohoo!
Grab a drink. Kind of a Negroni, but I didn't have sweet vermouth, so it's with dry vermouth. So it's not great, but it is serviceable.
Kathryn (02:01)
⁓
I cannot even begin to describe how much that means literally nothing to me. I know that vermouth is a thing that goes into cocktails that I like and that's all I know. Sweet, dry, I couldn't tell you the difference. I imagine one is sweet and one is dry but that's the extent of my... So which one did you say you have? You have the sweet... Okay, okay. But typically it's made with sweet. Okay, okay, that makes sense.
Gina (02:12)
hahahahah ⁓
That's, yeah. That's the difference, yeah. That's pretty much it. I have dry, I have dry, yeah. So you're supposed to make it with sweet. Yes, yeah. What
do you got going in your little cup there? Ooh.
Kathryn (02:37)
Yeah. I've got a little Irish coffee
situation, I'm using my, I should have pulled out my holiday mug, but I brought, kept out my little skeleton mug for the ghost story season. So I'm using, I'm still rocking with my skull.
Gina (02:47)
Hmm.
I have something to tell you and we can edit it out if it doesn't make sense. saw this thing on Instagram and I don't know if it's true, but it's been fucking me up. Well, not fucking me up. It's been energizing me with glee for like a week. You remember the D.A.R.E. program at school? That was a pyramid scheme according to what I saw on Instagram.
Kathryn (03:00)
I was gonna say, you seem like you have something to say. Okay?
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, I've never heard it described that way, but yes, but it's one of those, I'm having one of those moments where I'm like, yeah, duh, but not duh to you, it's duh like a light bulb, like yeah, of course, why would it not be? I could see that, yeah.
Gina (03:27)
Not surprising, right? But...
Yeah. Like, of course it was. Right. That was my reaction too. Because I
don't think it wasn't like, you know, a traditional pyramid scheme, but the way that it was run apparently was like you would be, you know, the cop or whoever that goes and like joins the program and goes to talk at schools. And then you would get like more out of it if you got other cops to also do it. And on and on and on it went. So very fucking pyramid scheme.
Kathryn (04:03)
That had to have been a result of like the war on drugs, right? That's a stupid thing for me to say because it's got to be that obvious, right? Like it was just another stupid thing that they were distracting us with when other bigger more important things were going on. I hate D.A.R.E. and let me explain to you why. Because I have a personal vendetta against our D.A.R.E. cop who was very mean to me.
Gina (04:08)
had to have been.
Yeah.
Yeah
Okay. ⁓
Kathryn (04:29)
I was sitting at my desk and little piece of shit that I hate who will remain nameless because I hate him so much I don't want anyone to ever hear me utter his name.
Gina (04:39)
Nice.
Kathryn (04:40)
May he rot in hell. He's still alive, but someday he'll be there. So this guy sucked and he sat next to me. He sat next to it. We had one of those. was like four desks to a little pod. Like we were all like stacked around each other. And so he was sitting next to me, but facing like the other direction, like whatever. And he kept turning to me and like bugging And I was a good student and I was paying attention and.
Gina (04:45)
No.
yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (05:09)
I turned to him and I said something like, you need to stop talking. I'm trying to pay attention. And she whips around and looks directly at me and is like, I have heard enough out of you. If you're going to talk the whole time, she starts laying into me like I was the one talking the whole time. And I'm like, girlfriend, I'm trying to have your back. This guy's been talking through your whole presentation. I just told him to stop. Like, what the hell? I didn't say any of that because I was shy as fuck when I was little. So I just let her yell at me. And I think of that.
Gina (05:34)
Hmm.
Kathryn (05:38)
all the time to this day. I have like very few regrets in my life, but one of my regrets on my list of like three in my whole life is not sticking up for myself because I was so mad. She made me go sit in the hall. I'm like really getting heated. I was so mad. So anyway, Mrs. Reed, if you're listening, that cop that you invited into your classroom, for D.A.R.E. was very mean to me.
Gina (05:52)
my god.
Kathryn (06:02)
And I wish that I had said something about it because Mrs. Reed had my back. She knew I was a good student. It was like one of those like teacher left the cli- like she wasn't there because she knew that that boy would bug me. And the reason I sat by him is because she knew that I could handle him, which is like a whole other issue that we shouldn't do that to children. But like Mrs. Reed was great. We love her.
Gina (06:20)
Ugh, yeah.
Kathryn (06:27)
But it was one of those moments where I was like, damn, if only Mrs. Reed was here, she could stick up for me, blah, blah, blah. And as an adult, I'm like, damn, I wish I had said something, because like, but I was a child and I was scared and she shouldn't have been mean to me. So anyway, fuck D.A.R.E. and all the D.A.R.E. cops out there. Do drugs and crime, but only fun crime.
Gina (06:45)
Agreed. Fucking agreed. Do drugs.
Do crime. Nonviolent crime. Yeah, nice crime.
Kathryn (06:56)
not mean crime.
Well, actually yeah, non-violent crime. can say that publicly. We'll talk later privately. Anyway.
Gina (07:08)
It's just occurring to me that we should
maybe explain what D.A.R.E. is, because I don't think they have that over here.
Kathryn (07:14)
⁓ yeah, I'm being
very American-centric right now.
Gina (07:17)
It was, I don't remember what did it even stand for? What was the acronym? Drugs and alcohol…
Kathryn (07:23)
Drugs Are Really Exciting.
Gina (07:29)
Do A Recreational Ecstasy. Just the one.
Kathryn (07:32)
Just one though. Any more is a little bit weird.
Gina (07:38)
Now I have no idea, I can't, I'm gonna look it up, because this is gonna bother me.
Drug Abuse Resistance Education. Which tells you everything you need to know. And they brought cops in to do it,
Tell you what though, the best part of D.A.R.E. was... Tell you what, they like at one point, ⁓ they brought us outside and they had like a golf cart and they put beer goggles on us and we had to drive the golf cart to simulate driving drunk and I was so fucking good at it. I didn't hit a single cone.
Kathryn (07:54)
Tell you what though.
I've heard of this.
You told me this. I remember when you told me this when we took motorcycle lessons because remember she pulled out the beer goggles for those. Remember that? You were like, don't worry, I got this in the bag. Maybe that's why you didn't pass.
Gina (08:15)
And I was like, I'm good at that. I'm good at this.
Funnily enough, I failed because I hit a cone.
Kathryn (08:28)
Well yeah, you didn't have the goggles on. How could you see?
Gina (08:29)
I didn't have the fucking beer goggles! I don't know what they thought I was gonna do.
Kathryn (08:34)
So anyway, there is a pyramid scheme, ⁓ and that's the episode. Bye, everyone. Just kidding.
Gina (08:34)
yeah. Anyway.
That's it, see ya. But yeah, don't, I should say, I don't
know if that's 100 % true, but I saw it on Instagram and it's been in my brain ever since.
Kathryn (08:49)
It feels true emotionally.
Gina (08:50)
Mm-hmm.
Can I tell you a story? Okay. So today, it was not I who chose the episode topic. It was our Patreon members. They voted for this. So I put a poll out to our Patreon members a while back asking what my second ghost month topic should be.
Kathryn (08:54)
Yeah, absolutely, please do. ⁓
Yeah!
Gina (09:12)
And the votes were very decisive. It was near unanimous, but also not. Kind of. There was a majority. So today, we're going to be exploring the legend of Bloody Mary.
Kathryn (09:24)
I'm so excited for this one.
Gina (09:25)
Me too, Before I get too hard into it though, ⁓ content warning, I'm gonna be talking about blood a lot, as well as general violence and murder, including the death of a child. I will say that specific part comes from a folk story rather than an actual provable real life event. I don't know if that makes a difference, but maybe it does, so I wanted to say it.
So anyway, depending on the types of activities that you were into as a child. Some of what I'm about to say might sound familiar, but for the uninitiated, I say Bloody Mary, I'm referring to a few different things, but for right now, if you haven't heard of it, it's easiest to think of it as a game. And the way the game is played kind of depends on who you're with and also where you're from, but the version that I grew up with went something like this.
Alright, Kathryn I want you to picture like late 90s, early aughts slumber party. You're like 12 years old.
and you and the rest of your girls decide to put down your little Tamagotchis for a second and do something more fun, more interesting. And one of the girls says that she heard from her older sister that if you go into the bathroom at night with the lights off, light a candle, look into the mirror and say the name Bloody Mary three times, a blood soaked woman will appear behind you
Kathryn (10:37)
you
Gina (10:58)
and she will be the last thing you see before you are cut to pieces. And that in a nutshell is what I'm talking about when I say Bloody Mary. It's kind of like a little bit gameplay-esque. It's really associated with like early adulthood, childhood kind of age, particularly for girls. also like kind of a ritual too. So throughout most of this episode, I'm going to be referring to it as a ritual, but there's a lot of different labels we can apply to this. So just to note, there's a little bit of fluidity here.
However, I am gonna pause because I am fucking positive that you encountered this in your childhood. So I wanted to ask, did the version that you grew up with differ from mine?
Kathryn (11:34)
you
So it did because we didn't have a candle. You were in 100 % pitch black, which...
Gina (11:45)
Okay.
Hmm.
Kathryn (11:51)
is probably largely why I to this day am afraid of the dark and mirrors. Those are like two of my biggest fears relatively. But yeah, that was, I mean, yes, other than that, 100 % spot on, it just was, you had to go in total darkness. Yeah.
Gina (11:57)
Well there you go.
Okay, interesting. Okay, okay.
And that's cool too, because you and I grew up, we weren't like neighbors, but in the same part of the country, the same, regionally we were the same, and so much of the Bloody Mary story ritual, whatever you wanna call it, is geography based. ⁓ The steps that come into play in different versions of Bloody Mary vary super widely. We get different versions mostly all across America specifically.
Kathryn (12:19)
regionally, yeah.
Gina (12:40)
Yes to parts of Europe. And there's like a kind of version of this all over the world, but when you go past a certain geographical point, the ritual changes and the story behind it changes a lot. But there are versions of this pretty much everywhere is what I'm trying to say. It's one of those things that no matter what we do, kids just somehow find out about it. They somehow partake in it. So we're going to explore why.
Real quick, I am going to give you some examples of how this differs based on where you are, because I thought it was really interesting. So, I have a whole section. It's interesting. So ⁓ a lot of people grow up how we did, thinking that you have to say her name three times. Sometimes it's seven, sometimes 13, which both of those make a lot of sense. Magic numbers, unlucky numbers, they have a lot of superstition attached to them.
Kathryn (13:12)
Hey yeah, I was hoping you wouldn't, yeah. That's cool. I didn't know that. Okay, cool.
Gina (13:34)
I also read accounts where it's up to a hundred times.
Kathryn (13:39)
I wish it was a hundred because I was always so scared that I was gonna accidentally summon her I'd be like in the bathroom brushing my teeth at night being like my god Don't accidentally say Bloody Mary three times like but then I would get in my head like ⁓ my god Does thinking it count don't think of Bloody Mary don't think like and I would be like my god Yeah
Gina (13:42)
lose track.
Don't say Bloody Mary.
And
even then sometimes it's not just saying her name that's part of the superstition. Sometimes it's saying I believe in Bloody Mary multiple times or sometimes it's I stole your baby Bloody Mary, which we will get into that. Yeah. Also, sometimes there are versions of this where you have to prick your finger.
Kathryn (14:17)
⁓
Okay.
Gina (14:25)
first in order to draw blood, to have blood present in the air in the room. Everyone has their own version of what this part of the ritual looks like, like the summoning part of it. And then we get into what happens when Bloody Mary actually appears. And that goes in a million directions too. So a lot of the time she's a ghost, which is why we're talking about her during Ghost Month. Sometimes she's just a straight up
like a zombie walking corpse deal. A lot of times she's a witch, And what she does to you also depends on where you are. So sometimes she'll choke you, sometimes she'll steal your soul, drink your blood, scratch you across the face. I grew up thinking she was gonna cut me to ribbons or kill me, something like that. On and on it goes. But there are always a few key hallmarks in a Bloody Mary story.
There's always a mirror, there's always a chant, and of course, there is Bloody Mary herself. And we see this pop up over and over again all across the decades as a story predominantly told by children for children. Adults tell the story as well because like,
Hello, I'm an adult and I'm telling this story. But it's mainly seen in like an academic and historical sense as being a youthful thing, particularly a feminine youthful thing. It's considered like a girl activity. I don't think I ever actually knew any boys who played this. For me, it was like exclusively a slumber party with my girls thing.
Kathryn (15:58)
Yeah, this was what you did when you got tired of light as a feather, stiff as a board, you know? Like, yeah, for sure. This was the level up spooky slumber party thing if you were brave enough to tap into that power, yeah.
Gina (16:09)
Yes.
Yes,
exactly. And when you have something, we've talked about this before, when you have something like this that's so widespread and so prolific across generations and cultures and backgrounds, it's so interesting because how did this happen? Especially, you know, before the age of social media when it wasn't easy for a kid in New Jersey to talk to a kid in Wyoming or something. How did stories like this spread so quickly amongst kids specifically?
And we don't really know. Spoiler. ⁓ In the 1970s, historians started trying to trace this story back to its origins and figure out, was Bloody Mary based on a real person? Did this come from, you know, divinatory techniques that we've used in years gone by and it just morphed into this different And so far,
Kathryn (16:46)
You
Gina (17:08)
They started researching this in the seventies. They can only trace it back to the sixties. Yeah, yeah. And that's pretty much all we've got. But it's because no one can agree on who Bloody Mary was in life because there are so many people that she could have been. And there are so many rituals that have elements and pieces of the modern Bloody Mary ritual that we know today. So we don't know when this started. We have no idea.
Kathryn (17:14)
What? Really?
Okay, I didn't know, because I have, I'm sure you'll, I know you're gonna talk more, but I'm like, I thought I knew for sure who she was and what the story was. Is that like another regional thing? Okay.
Gina (17:46)
Okay, sweet. So that is a regional thing. It's a hugely regional thing, which I am gonna dig
into a few common theories about who she could be, but that's a perfect transition. I want to hear what your version of the story was, what you grew up with.
Kathryn (18:02)
I always thought she was Mary, like bloody Mary. Like, isn't that what they called the Queen?
Gina (18:08)
Yes, okay. So, Mary the first of England. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So she is...
Kathryn (18:10)
Like, Mary, which queen was it? The first? Yeah. That's why I always,
I thought we knew that. Like, I thought that that was a direct, it was her and that's why we do this. Okay. Okay.
Gina (18:18)
It's contested. Yes. Okay. So that's what I thought too. I thought this
was going to be an episode about Mary the first of England, King Henry the eighth's daughter. That's what I thought this was going to be. That's not what this is going to be at all.
Kathryn (18:29)
Me too! Okay! ⁓ I love this!
my gosh, okay, I was like getting ready to learn about Queen Mary, okay!
Gina (18:37)
Well, you are
still going to learn a little bit about Queen Mary, but I'm not going to spend a whole hour, even though I could gladly, I will not spend a whole hour talking about her today. Real quick. So I'm going to roll through a couple of contenders, popular contenders for who was the original Bloody Mary. But if anyone listening to this doesn't hear their version of it, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com please tell us what your version of the origin story is because there's
Kathryn (18:40)
Excellent.
Yeah. Okay.
Gina (19:04)
I mean, there's gotta be thousands of versions of this out there. There are so many. Yes.
Kathryn (19:07)
Yeah, please do. Because
I'm like dying to know what all of them were now. I really thought that there was just the one. I thought that this was agreed upon. I didn't know that there were any other options.
Gina (19:17)
Gosh,
yeah. Okay, so let's start with what we know. We'll start with Mary the first. So she probably gets brought up the most when people ask who was the original Bloody Mary because her nickname was literally Bloody Mary. And as for how she got that nickname, we have to go all the way back to her childhood. I am gonna roll through this kind of fast. I apologize in advance, but if I say something that's confusing, just tell me.
So Mary I was the oldest child and the oldest daughter of King Henry VIII. So we're talking like 1500s here. And the spark notes of her trauma is essentially her dad very publicly and humiliatingly ended his marriage with her mom, Catherine of Aragon.
and their marriage had lasted over 20 years. It was a very big deal. And he did this so that he could get with someone else, Anne Boleyn. at the time, this was a very big deal because England was Catholic and the Pope was not gonna allow Henry VIII to leave his wife. Divorce was not on the table. So Henry was like, fine, screw you, screw Catholicism. I'm gonna start a new branch of Protestantism specifically so I can leave my wife and get with someone else.
And yes, it was way more complicated than that. If you're a historian, please don't come at me. But this is like, you know, cliff notes. Now, Mary was not thrilled about any of this, mainly because her mother was Spanish and Spain, super Catholic. So she was raised to be very, very Catholic and live within those virtues and ideals. So in her eyes, her dad was committing heresy by doing this. But
Also, the kind of twist of the knife here is that once her mom and dad split up, she became an illegitimate child. So she literally went from being a princess to being a bastard pretty much overnight. And as a result of this, she spent her entire early adulthood, because I think this happened when she was 17 or 18, she spent all of those years watching her dad dismantle literally everything she had ever held sacred.
It's a very old story of daddy issues, they are nothing new and this was like the queen of all daddy issues. Which naturally built up a lot of resentment in Mary towards both her dad, but also Protestantism in general. Long story short, she wound up getting added back to the line of succession in the 1540s and eventually she did become queen.
And fun fact about Mary, she wasn't just a queen, she was the first official queen. And by that, I mean, she didn't have like a king ruling alongside her, or she didn't have like a son who was technically king that she was ruling for. She was the monarch, the authority in and of herself without needing a man there, which was a huge deal. ⁓ I do have to say there are other women who are like rumored to have that title, but Mary is the first one that we can all agree on.
Yes, she was like the first regent. think Queen Regent is what the term is. So anyway, I digress. When she came into power, one of her top priorities was getting rid of all of this Protestant stuff that her dad had been cooking and bringing England back into the light of the Pope and Catholicism. And in doing this, she was real ruthless. She declared that heresy, which was basically just anyone being anything other
than Catholic was punishable by death, which led her to burn 300 Protestants at the stake in just three years.
Yeah, it was a lot. think she was only queen for four or five years. So this was like, she moved fast.
Kathryn (23:11)
Yeah.
I'm having one of those memories where I, as you're telling this story, my memory, I'm sitting in our guest room of my childhood home because I remember having a, I one of those like history books for young people or whatever. I got one on whatever, it was like the royal family or whatever.
Gina (23:31)
Mmm.
Kathryn (23:38)
and I'm having like a flashback to learn, cause I was like Team Mary because of what you said about her being the first official queen, like blah, blah, blah. I remember being like, yeah, what a bad ass, blah, blah, And I'm having flashbacks to learning how brutal she was and just having the biggest identity crisis of like, ⁓ no, I was rooting for you.
Gina (23:53)
Yeah.
Yeah, it is
kind of sad. And like, I get it because holy shit, that is so much trauma, you know? But I mean, on the bright side, like her little sister was a really great queen, which I'm sure doesn't make Mary happy, but...
Kathryn (24:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
for sure.
Which I was just gonna say, which
I imagine was like a whole other thing that she probably had to deal with, like, yeah.
Gina (24:20)
Yeah. gosh, yeah,
there's like layers there. Because Elizabeth, her sister, was like, just yeah, anyway, we don't have time to talk about that. yeah, she was, my god, yes. So yes, she winds up burning around 300 Protestants at the stake. And a lot of these Protestants, weren't the wealthy, affluent, elite Protestants. They were poor. They were self-taught. They were lower class.
Kathryn (24:26)
Yeah.
That was like the one that everyone, yeah, we'll live in that rabbit hole if we fall down. Yeah.
Gina (24:49)
which among other things made Mary just insanely unpopular. People really did not like her as queen. So when she ultimately died at the age of 42, history labeled her as Bloody Mary and she has been known as Bloody Mary ever since. Personally, she is my least favorite of the four contenders that we're gonna talk about to be the OG, Bloody Mary.
Like I said, I grew up thinking that it was her, but having researched the other ones, I actually think she wasn't at all. I think this is a case of coincidence. Like we have the ritual and the legend of Bloody Mary, and we have this historical figure whose nickname happened to be Bloody Mary, and we just connect the dots because that's what our brains are trained to do.
Kathryn (25:25)
Okay.
Yeah, that's interesting. I'm like my, I'm trusting the process. I trust you, but my knee-jerk reaction is, of course she's Bloody Mary, you know, I'm having one of those moments. weird. Okay. Okay, well tell me more. I'm like dying to learn who you think it is.
Gina (25:43)
⁓ Mmm. I know.
Yeah, because I think here's... Okay,
so this next one, contender two, you are going to recognize because it is Elizabeth Bathory.
Kathryn (25:59)
Okay.
Gina (26:00)
She
gets brought up a lot when people talk about the original Bloody Mary behind the legend. And also fun fact, topic of our very first episode was Elizabeth Bathory. So if you want to hear the details on her story, make sure to go check that episode out because it's chock full of great stuff. Spark Notes again is... Yeah, it is our first episode, so be nice.
Kathryn (26:24)
I know, I'm like, let's have a brush pass. If you go listen to that, please come on back to this side of the catalog. Don't judge us too hard. Be gentle. I, yeah, I'm, we did just the best we could do.
Gina (26:28)
Yeah. We were doing our, I stand by it. I stand by it. You did a great job.
We did, and it was great, and I regret nothing. But yes,
basically, just for the Bloody Mary part of this story, all you really need to know about Elizabeth Bathory is that she was said to have been a serial killer in the 15 to 1600s who allegedly tortured and killed over 600 women, and she is famous for such acts as bathing in their blood to preserve her youth, which...
Conceptually, I do buy that more as the inspiration for Bloody Mary than I do Mary the First of England because it has targeting of young women, it has blood, and it also brings a mirror element into it insofar as like a symbol of vanity or pride and personal appearance. However, knowing what I now know about Elizabeth Bathory because of the episode that you did and knowing how she was treated,
Kathryn (27:23)
Yeah.
Gina (27:35)
I feel pretty comfortable saying that she, in my opinion, is not the OG Bloody Mary. What do you think?
Kathryn (27:43)
I so I only have two to go off of so far I will say I'm still team Bloody Mary Bloody Mary. Oh, I'll just say it twice. Oh my god. See this is what I'm Oh my god. I'm so scared. There's a mirror right there Okay, I'm getting a little scared deep breaths, okay, so
Gina (27:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Hehehehehe
I wonder if it has to
be consecutive. You go ahead. So, bye.
Kathryn (28:09)
I've said it so many times. Well, so have you.
I think it does have to be consecutive. I think it has to be within 10 seconds. Right, right, Gina? Between the two, I'm still OG. Bloody M because I get what you're saying. Bathory fits it better, especially since part of the legend is she shows up in the mirror covered in blood and...
Gina (28:16)
Yeah, 100%.
Kathryn (28:37)
Queen Mary would not have been. Symbolically though, there would be blood on her hands, so there could be something.
Gina (28:43)
Yeah.
Kathryn (28:46)
Between the two I'm still team OG, my personal OG, but I'm not gonna give a whole... I've already spoken too much. I'll give my final result when you're done.
Gina (28:47)
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, well I
don't think you've spoken too much, but I will give you a few more stories and then we can discuss which one we think is the most likely. So.
Kathryn (28:59)
you
I do love that Bathory was part of it though. I don't remember I feel like I have a vague memory of seeing something about that when I was doing my research, but It was like I was so scared episode one It was like in one ear out the other type deal, but I have a vague memory of that being like a theory
Gina (29:06)
Yeah.
Hehehehehe ⁓
Well, it's interesting when you research
Bloody Mary, because that was kind of my experience of it too, is I recognize the names that were used to like, you know, this could be Bloody Mary. But when you're reading about those people outside the context of Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary doesn't get mentioned at all. And so it's like only if, yeah, it's only like if you're looking specifically for this information, will you find these names like connected, or at least like the first two that we talked about connected to this in a way that like implies they were the original.
Kathryn (29:34)
Yeah. Because there's so much more. Yeah.
Gina (29:50)
Anyway, you want contender number three?
Hey, are you familiar with the name Mary Whales?
Kathryn (29:57)
⁓ I mean, I'm familiar with both of those words separately, so it's one of those maybe I've heard this, but I don't. I don't know for sure.
Gina (30:01)
Okay, cool.
Well, I had never heard of Mary Whales before, but she is pointed to a lot as being a Bloody Mary or the Bloody Mary, and I do think this story presents a pretty strong argument. It is a folk story, so what I'm about to tell you is not something that we can prove happened in real life, but it is a legend or myth or whatever you want to call it.
And the story goes that there once was a girl named Mary Whales with an evil father named Old Man Whales Now, Old Man Whales loved money more than anything in the world except for his wife. So when his wife died giving birth to their daughter, Mary, he twisted that grief into hatred of their child, which sucks, but also kind of a story that
We see every now and then it's a thing that happens and it's gross.
Yes. So Mary grew up underfed, she was overworked on their farm, and her dad only gave her rags as clothing. So a very poorly treated young girl. But despite this, she grew into a very sweet child who loved her father and just wanted to make him happy. And the older she got, the more she started to look like her mother, which made Old Man Whales hate her even more.
One night, after getting drunk, Old Man Whales stumbled into Mary's room when she was sleeping and stabbed her to death very violently.
he carried her down the stairs to their dirt-packed cellar, dug a hole, threw her in, and just left her there. Two nights later, Old Man Whales was finishing up some chores in the kitchen when he suddenly saw Mary there standing in a pool of blood, stirring an empty kettle. She said one word. And all the versions of this that I read, it describes her as like hissing this.
I don't know how you can hiss father, but yeah, that's like what she says. Very creepy. And that caused Old Man Whales to sprint out of the kitchen. Like, hell no, this is scary. He got out of there. But when he glanced back, no one was there. There was no blood. There was no Mary. It was like she had never been there. A week later, Old Man Whales was reading the newspaper, like normal, when he glanced up kind of above the paper, like people used to back when newspapers were more common.
Kathryn (32:15)
Eww!
Gina (32:42)
and he saw Mary sitting just opposite him, knitting him a shirt drenched in blood. Again, she hissed,
And this time she jumped towards Old Man Whales and she was holding her knitting needles like a knife, kind of like she was ready to stab him. And Old Man Whales again ran outside as quickly as he could to get away from Mary, but not before he got two deep, long gashes in his back. At this point, Old Man Whales was way too afraid to go back into the house. So instead he stayed in the barn for a week straight. After a while with
No further appearances of Mary, he decided to try going back in the house, if only to get washed up. So he went in the kitchen, he got himself a bowl of water, and he was getting ready to shave his face. So he went over to this little shaving mirror that they had hanging on the wall. And when he looked in the mirror, he saw Mary's face with glowing red eyes, once again saying,
And then she reached out of the mirror with long sharp nails and slapped her father twice, giving him four gashes along his face. Once again, he ran from the house, but this time when he got to the barn, Mary was there smiling at him and pointing up at the ceiling. He followed her where she was pointing and old man Whales saw a noose hanging from the rafters next to a ladder.
And without a word, he climbed up and obediently hung himself. And that's the story of Mary Whales.
Kathryn (34:26)
Okay, well obviously that's my new number one contender. That's like a direct... Yeah, that sounds like a story that was born out of the stand in front of the mirror and say it. Why? Because, you know...
Gina (34:29)
Right? Like I buy this one more than the previous.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (34:41)
Yeah, that's definitely my new... That's I've definitely never heard that before. Yeah. That's horrifying.
Gina (34:45)
I have never heard it either and it's such a scary story.
Yes,
so you have with this one, you have the blood, like we're saying, you have the mirror, you have the elements of vengeance and repressed rage. Like this one really tracks for me, but I have one more contender for you. So I'll tell you that one and then we can make our call. This is the one to beat. So this is the story of Mary Worth. I had also never heard about this. Are you familiar with Mary Worth?
Kathryn (34:54)
Mm-hmm.
Okay, okay, this is the one to beat. Okay.
Gina (35:16)
Okay. It kind of makes sense because who Mary Worth actually was is very contentious. some people say, so, okay, it's basically she was either a woman who tortured and killed enslaved people on the Underground Railroad, or she was a woman who burned at the stake for being a witch, or she was a woman whose baby was stolen. Hence the, stole your baby, Bloody Mary thing, way at the beginning.
Or she could be a combination of all three of those things. Her story really depends again on where you are and who's telling it. Big question mark, but one of the most common versions of her story goes like this. there was once a witch named Mary Worth who lived in the woods and got by on selling herbal remedies. I had to think about that.
Kathryn (36:10)
She sold drugs in the woods. She's the reason they created the D.A.R.E. fact about D.A.R.E. It's because of Bloody Mary.
Gina (36:11)
Yeah, she was part of the DARE program!
You
Man,
we should teach that to kids. now. Anyway, yeah, so she's in the woods selling drugs. Locals feared her, but somehow, the village and Mary, they managed to coexist Then one day, young girls from the village started going missing.
and the villagers couldn't find them anywhere. A few particularly brave villagers decided to go to Mary's cabin as a last resort just to see if Mary knew where the girls might be. But when Mary answered the door, she looked different, almost like she'd gotten younger.
They asked about the girls and Mary said she didn't know anything. And that was that. The villagers just kind of went on their way. Then one night not long after, the Miller's daughter was in bed nursing a toothache using a remedy that Mary Worth had given her. When suddenly she heard a noise and it was a noise that no one else but her could hear. There was something
Beckoning to her outside and she found herself compelled to go see what it was She got out of bed and she started trying to go outside But her parents caught her and were you know trying and kind of failing a little bit to keep her contained within the house So her parents start panicking a little bit and they go and start rousing the other villagers their neighbors to try and get some help figure out what's going on and When a few of them came outside
They noticed a strange light coming from the edge of the woods near the village. And when they went to investigate, they found Mary Worth standing there, glowing with unnatural light next to a huge oak tree and pointing a wand at the miller's home. Cue and torches. We've heard this story a million times. Mary was caught, she was tied to the stake and burned alive.
witchcraft and as she was burning she cursed the villagers saying that if any of them dared to say her name in front of a mirror she would come back to exact her revenge. After she died the villagers searched her land where they found rows and rows of unmarked graves one for each of the girls who had gone missing. And that is the story of Mary Worth.
Kathryn (38:50)
compelling story.
Gina (38:52)
a belly down.
Kathryn (38:54)
But...
Might I offer a critique? I think that that one's too broad. That one's too, like... If we're gonna say it's Mary Worth, we could say it's just any old witch. So I definitely am team story number three. Yeah.
Gina (38:59)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Me too. I think Mary
Worth, the story is interesting, but it doesn't have the hallmarks that I'm looking for. Like targeting young girls, sure, but there was no, there was the mirror right at the end, but that could have been something that somebody just chucked in there. It's not like a pivotal point of the plot. Yeah, and there was no blood. Like the implication was that she was using the children's blood to make herself younger, but it's not an explicit thing that's discussed in the story.
Kathryn (39:24)
Yeah, because it did... Mm-hmm.
But there wasn't a mirror. Yeah.
Yeah. And the whole her saying, say my name in a mirror and I'll come get you seems a little... Like, where did... Why did she say that? Like, there was no mirror. If a mirror was part of the living story...
Gina (39:53)
Right.
Kathryn (39:57)
I'd be more into it, but it just feels kinda out of nowhere. It's a plot hole for me.
Gina (40:01)
Yes.
Agreed, agreed. All right, so we think, do we think Mary Whales?
Kathryn (40:06)
Yeah.
We think it was Mary Whales yeah.
Gina (40:12)
We think it was Mary Whales Okay,
I'm on board with that. I will also throw a wrench into everything by saying there are lots of people who think that Bloody Mary wasn't actually based on a person or a story, like one original story. Or, so they think that she wasn't based on one person, or they think that whether she was a person or not doesn't matter.
because the legend and the ritual has turned into so much more than just a reflection of one story. So there's one historian specifically with very strong opinions about this and his name is Alan, I believe it's Dundee's
Kathryn (40:48)
you
Gina (40:51)
And Alan, I'm just gonna call him Alan. I'm sorry if that's too informal for you, buddy. Al, our friend Al. Him and Tony Thorne should hang out.
Kathryn (40:59)
just gonna say how are we gonna make this connection another Elizabeth Bathory connection wow we really want people to go back and listen episode one huh go listen I don't give a shit yeah let us know how great it is please
Gina (41:09)
⁓ god. Do it. See what you find. Go listen. What are you gonna do?
Yeah.
You ⁓
Kathryn (41:24)
Please tell me I'm
worthy. Love me! Anyway, so Al...
Gina (41:31)
to this Alan guy. So this Alan guy,
he thinks that the legend originally began as an initiation ritual into womanhood.
Kathryn (41:44)
Okay, I can see this.
Gina (41:45)
Right,
and a large part of his argument rests on the whole bloody part of Bloody Mary. And the thought process here is that this ritual has a lot to do with the excitement and the apprehension around getting your first period for a few reasons. So number one, the age group that we see engaging with this ritual are by and large young girls, many of them around ages 10 to 13.
which is when that anxiety is the most prevalent. That's when you're waiting for it to happen or dreading it happening or however your experience was. That's kind of the age that it occurs. And number two, all these rituals take place in a bathroom and feature what Alan calls the, quote, sudden appearance of blood. Just not exactly how periods work, but I see what he was going for.
Kathryn (42:37)
We it's close enough to to a young girl. Perhaps it could maybe Yeah, yeah
Gina (42:39)
He's, yeah.
He's doing his best. So there's this idea
that Bloody Mary is almost like, it's kind of like saying Aunt Flo or any of those other phrases that you use to just avoid saying that you have your period. And as for the name Mary, he suggests that it could refer to the act of marriage, which for a long time and still now to an extent was seen as a really formative part of the transition into womanhood.
So the expectation that someday you'll have a husband and the age when girls start performing this ritual is the same age when that anxiety or that excitement or whatever strong emotion you're having kind of starts to set in. And this wouldn't be the first time that a mirror specifically shows up in kind of a marital divination context. So while I was researching this, I found this old ritual that I had never heard of before, maybe you had,
basically what it is, it was an old tradition where a woman would walk up the stairs backwards while holding a candle and a hand mirror with the hopes that when she looked in the mirror she would get a glimpse of her future husband's face.
Yeah, so it was like you would either see a glimpse of your future husband's face or you would see a skull, which would mean that you would die before you got the chance to find the one or get married or whatever. Yeah.
Kathryn (44:07)
my god.
Those are two very extreme options. Couldn't you find like a nice brunch with the girls? I don't know.
Gina (44:13)
I know, yeah. Where's the Palentines? The Galentines
version of this? I'll never forget Palentines. Kathryn and I threw a Valentine's party one year and it was called Palentines and it was really fun.
Kathryn (44:26)
Wait, that was so much fun. ⁓
And we had, it was thrown at Gina's apartment and we had rules to keep it for the pals. And one of the rules was nobody was allowed to acknowledge their significant other or touch each other at all. And if you did either of those things, you would get whacked with a wooden spoon.
Gina (44:50)
still have that wooden spoon
because I wrote in Sharpie on this good wooden spoon, this is a Christian house, and it's still on that spoon.
Kathryn (44:55)
Yeah.
Man, I hope everyone out there has as much fun as Gina and I have together. Yes, yes. Anyway, continue, sorry.
Gina (45:07)
think if everyone does, the world is in a very good place.
Yeah, she
says one Negroni deep and like ready to cry. Anyway.
Kathryn (45:17)
Man,
I love you so much! We just have it all figured out, don't we? Listen, I'm drinking at 2 o'clock on a Wednesday in a very not-sad capacity, so yes, I'd say we do have it figured out.
Gina (45:23)
Yes, we do. That's why we have a podcast, Kathryn. Come on.
You
I think we definitely
do. I'm using my word of the day calendar as a coaster.
Kathryn (45:46)
Hey man, at least you have a word of the day calendar. Think of all of those who don't.
Gina (45:47)
My mom got it for me.
You're right, well if you ever need a word of the day, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com It's just becoming a bit.
Kathryn (45:59)
Wait,
I remember early on in this podcast, I literally texted Gina while I was editing one of our episodes, and I was like, I straight up said, do you have a word of the day calendar? Because I noticed every single episode, you would use a new, very sophisticated sounding word, like once or twice.
Gina (46:10)
yeah!
Kathryn (46:19)
And then I've, but it's always like a word I never heard you say. And you came back, I thought you were, was like, ⁓ ha ha, I thought I was joking. You came back and you were like, yeah, why? I use it every day. I was like, okay. So you do, so that's the secret.
Gina (46:33)
Today's
word of the day, it's actually a phrase, it is, and I'm not lying, extract revenge.
Kathryn (46:44)
Honestly, say no more.
Gina (46:46)
It dates back to the 1500s apparently.
Kathryn (46:48)
Okay, wait, this is so relevant. This is like so relevant to this episode. Wow. All right. It's a sign of respect in our culture.
Gina (46:51)
Yeah! To Bloody Mary. Alright, well, sorry for using you as a coaster. Anyway...
Yes. So anyway, yes, we have
this like marriage mirror divination ritual. And when you see this ritual depicted, it's often accompanied by imagery of like a witch's shadow in the background. So the idea is that there's some second or third party, I guess second party, because there's only really one person doing the ritual. There's another person who is a witch orchestrating all of this, which symbolically would be like the Bloody Mary figure.
So in this, the Bloody Mary ritual is seen as a reflection of what for a long time were the two biggest stressors in a young girl's life, particularly by historical standards, which are both the anxiety of menstruation starting and also the knowledge of what comes after a husband. I will say that's cool.
I don't know about you, but when I was doing the Bloody Mary thing with my friends, I was just trying to like do something kind of weird and fun with my friends. But that's kind of the whole point is the argument is that it's not a conscious thing that you do. It's a subconscious physical representation of the feelings on the inside. Even if, you know, that something might result in like a creepy bloody lady.
scratching you or stabbing you or whatever.
Kathryn (48:32)
Yeah, I do that. I mean, that makes sense to me because there have been many even just anecdotally, there have been many stories that we've discussed that there is kind of an underlying, you know, a woman became of age and then shit hit the fan or, you know, weird shit happens when you're in that kind of coming of age time period.
Gina (49:00)
Yeah.
Kathryn (49:02)
also just folklorists love menstruation metaphor.
Gina (49:04)
Dude,
That's, listen, I'm not, I'm not a historian. I'm not a sociologist. I am not a folklorist. However, I do get a little bit bored by the fact that every time blood shows up anywhere, dudes are like, it represents periods. Like not always, I don't think always, but also like,
Kathryn (49:08)
How long do we want to make this episode?
Mm-hmm.
Gina (49:32)
And I will, I'll give Alan credit. I think the symbolism within the ritual, like the period in the marriage thing, may have formed a piece of its foundation. Like whenever this was first getting started, maybe yes, this was a conscious or subconscious part of it. But I don't think that's why it persists now. I don't think that's why you and I grew up doing it. I don't think it's why kids now are doing it. I think it's more about something that you hinted at a little bit earlier, which is exerting control over your surroundings, but also,
like testing the boundaries of an identity that at that age has not finished forming yet. like, historically speaking, women and girls, as we know, had very little choice in how their lives went. And so whatever control that we did have, we were kind of forced to exert in like the quieter ways, ⁓ gossiping, orchestrating social events, writing under pseudonyms, blah, blah, blah, all of those things. And all of those things were extremely important as social tools,
particularly gossiping and, you know, socializing. But there things that leave and left very little room for excitement and feeling daring and the ability to prove that you're brave and strong and are willing to face things that scare you. So I don't, to me, I don't think it's a surprise that women and girls as a social group formulated our own way to give us like a little bit of a dash of fear while also proving to your friends
Hey, I'm brave. Like, I could do this. I'm strong. You know, it's like reaffirming the identity that you want to build at that age. That's what I think. I don't know about the period stuff. I want to hear your thoughts.
Kathryn (51:15)
Yeah, I don't know. It's one of those things where could there be a metaphor in there? Yeah, sure. There could be a metaphor in anything if that's what you choose to see in it. That's just to echo. That's certainly not why we were doing it. I wasn't going into the bathroom and staring in a mirror because I like needed a tampon.
Like that's not what we were doing at slumber parties. But there's also this kind of extra layer of...
the control, like you said, the control that women have or do not have or have to kind of create for themselves historically was kind of rooted in the fact that, you know, once you became of age and started bearing children or whatever, a lot of the only control women had was like how they raised or were allowed to raise their children. So there is an amount of power in that.
Gina (52:06)
Yeah.
Kathryn (52:12)
So I'm like, maybe there's something there. I just, I don't know. I am, this is me. I'm trying not to fall down my own little rabbit hole here. I'm so sorry. But I do get a little sick of the over-symbolization of everything, especially like we are in a time of transformation and a lot of stuff that means a lot of other stuff and every single show or mini series or movie is a metaphor for something else and.
Gina (52:24)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (52:37)
I do love that and I think there's a very important place for that within our society. But also sometimes girls just want to scare each other and be scared and be powerful and sometimes that's just all it is. know, like whether it's something else for someone else, maybe there was a group of girls in the 60s who were like, you know, I didn't like what my husband looked like in that mirror. Let's all have our periods and scream in the mirror. Like, I don't know.
Gina (52:51)
Yes.
You know, like girls do.
Kathryn (53:07)
Maybe there's something to that, but that's a different experience than the one I grew up in because I grew up in the 90s, which was a very different time than in the 60s, you know? So, you know, there is a layer of that where it could be all of these things and just somehow there are pieces of this legend that have stood the test of time and is still relevant to girls now as it, you know...
Gina (53:17)
Yes.
Kathryn (53:33)
today as it was back then as it will be another 60 years from now, you know?
Gina (53:37)
Yeah, totally
agree. And let's talk about the 90s for a second, because I didn't know this, but I found it fascinating. The 80s and 90s are when Bloody Mary kind of had a boom in popularity. been around since at least the 60s, that we know of. But it wasn't until the 80s and 90s that people were really, talking about her. She started appearing in ⁓ movies. She was referenced in TV shows.
Kathryn (53:42)
Yeah.
Gina (54:02)
And so I looked, I dug a little bit more into like why she was being referenced so much. And once again, it was the satanic panic. Like every episode we come back to this, it feels like. But seriously, like any time I research anything having to do with this time period, it all comes back to the satanic panic. Everything, every time.
Kathryn (54:11)
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
It really does. I will say, sorry, this is a little bit of a steamroll, but my dad said something after our Satanic Panic episode. He said something like, wow, I didn't know I lived through all of this. Like, this is fascinating, blah, blah, blah. And I just remember thinking, my knee-jerk reaction is, how could you not have known all of this was happening? Like, there was so much of it happening. But retrospectively, that's exactly why people didn't realize they were living through it. It's because it was...
everywhere in everything woven into every single thought process anyone had. Like you could not have possibly known that you were living through a panic because you were too busy panicking. Like everyone experienced it. Whether you realized you whether you were aware of the news stories or not, it was in everything everyone did. So that's not surprising to me at all that there was an influx of that when we were younger.
Gina (54:52)
Mmm.
That's a good point.
Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah.
also, like the timing of it's also interesting because it was when, so in the 80s was like second wave feminism was in full swing, right? Cause that started in, I think like the 70s kind of thing. So by the 80s, it was like full swing, early 80s kind of, and there was this real sense of rebellion in women against things like traditional gender roles, being forced to be the perfect like 60s, 50s.
however far you want to go back, housewife with, know, just fitting into that mold. So there was already this kind of built in innate anger in women combined with the fear of all of this like satanic stuff, which could have resulted in Bloody Mary becoming like a storytelling tool to kind of embody that feminine rage a little bit while also provoking the zeitgeist. Like it could have been women seeing this happening.
on the silver screen, TV shows, whatever, and just being like, hell yeah. Like, get it, girl. You know what I mean?
Kathryn (56:17)
Hell yeah.
This is so- that's interesting that you bring up the 80s because that actually does make me buy into the whole menstruation metaphor a little bit more for kind of- I don't want to say weird reason, but I feel like 80s were getting into yuppie era when women's version of feminism was to be as not feminine as possible. ⁓
Gina (56:29)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (56:43)
like a sign of strength for women in the 80s was to wear the power suit and you know not wear as much makeup and just be as masculine as possible so I almost wonder if there was like this rejection of this symbolism of womanhood and that's why she was seen as so bad and scary I don't know I'm just theorizing myself now I just yeah
Gina (56:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
think that's such a good point too, because that also tracks
with the age that Bloody Mary tends to target. Because that's, like we talked about earlier, that's kind of like the cusp of what was traditionally considered womanhood. So it's like as the girls are crossing this bridge, metaphorically, you're stopping them and being like, no, don't become a girl. Don't become a woman.
Kathryn (57:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's like, well, no, I'm not, you know, I have to go. Have a career and all these things, I don't want to see my husband in the mirror or have children or all of those things. ⁓ Just the general feminine roles. Anyway, this is all very fascinating. I'm like trying so hard not to just like steamrolling roll down this hill because there's so much.
Gina (57:38)
Yeah.
Isn't it so fascinating?
Kathryn (57:55)
All of these things are kind of obvious now that you've said them, but it's like going back to the very beginning. Man, I was just trying to scare my friends. Like that's all it was. It was not any of this.
Gina (58:05)
Yeah.
Yes,
yeah, that was my whole experience researching this was just like pouring over like academic articles and like interviews with kids and studies that have been done and like just a lot of time sunk into the theory of what it is and why we still talk about it. And then I think it was like the day before yesterday, I was just sitting on my couch and I was like, dude, we're trying to answer the question, why do children do what they do?
And there is no answer for that. Like there will never be an answer for that because children are not all the same person. Like we were doing it for our reasons, a different girl or dude somewhere could be doing it for their reasons. Like it all completely depends. And so it could be a subconscious manifestation of like anxiety about marriage or menstruation or whatever. It could be trying to prove your bravery to your friends. Blah, blah, blah.
Kathryn (58:38)
Yeah. ⁓
Gina (59:04)
But at the end of the day, I'm kind of surprised that this episode took the shape that it did. Because like I said, I thought it was going to be an episode about Mary the First of England, like Queen Mary, the vast majority of the research out there, the resources that exist to consume this story and learn about the ritual are all trying to answer the question, why? And I think the answer really is just why not? I know that I'm not.
you know, a historian or something like that, but I think that really is what it comes down to.
Kathryn (59:29)
Yeah!
Honestly, yes, as you were saying all those things, like asking, you why are kids doing these things, my brain just kept going, who cares? Because they're children. That's why. Like, who cares why? And people do care. I'm sure many people care. But it's like, okay, why do kids still share that fricking?
Gina (59:43)
Right, yeah. That's why.
Kathryn (59:58)
urban legend about the dog licking your hand or the person in the back seat, you know, with the lights flickering. Yeah, like, why do kids do any of that? I'm sure there is a psychological reason why I'm sure it has to do with boundary testing. And I'm sure it has to do with all of these parapsychology thingamajigs that I know nothing about. But at its core, it's also just children interacting with each other and like being kids and doing their thing.
Gina (1:00:01)
Yeah. Or the Hook Man.
Kathryn (1:00:27)
And like, also wonder, I wonder if kids still do that, not to be all elderly or anything, but I know one of the biggest changes from when we were kids to now is time is so much more structured. We had so much free time back in the day. And I do think that that is a big reason why these stories spread the way they did, because you'd go out on your bike, God knows where, for God knows how long, and like,
Gina (1:00:40)
Mmm. Yeah.
Kathryn (1:00:56)
meet random kids that you'd never see again and you don't know where they came from. They were just at the park one day. They're probably like in town visiting their grandparents. And like that shit doesn't really happen anymore. You meet kids at play dates that your parents supervise or like at the music circle in this structured spot where you don't really have a lot of one on one interaction. ⁓ this is to say I'm like getting way off topic. But I do think that that like
Gina (1:01:03)
You
Yeah.
Kathryn (1:01:25)
I'm gonna ask my niece if she's done the Bloody Mary thing because she's at the primo age where it would be done I'll ask her to see if she's ever done it and like what her experience with it is
Gina (1:01:27)
Please do. Please do. Yes.
Yeah,
Kathryn (1:01:38)
Excellent. That was
do that. Bye.
Gina (1:01:40)
I will say for anyone listening
to this, we didn't have time to talk about really a non-Western version of the Bloody Mary legend, but they exist and they fascinating. So research that, please, if you want a rabbit hole to fall down, because particularly in Japan, there is a lot of really interesting stories that have parallels with Bloody Mary. So just if that's something you're into.
Kathryn (1:01:50)
for sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (1:02:07)
Do a Google search, you will not regret it. It's interesting.
Kathryn (1:02:10)
And if you have any non-Western stories for this, we could do a part two if any of you out there have any stories you'd like to share with us. And even if you don't have a non-Western story, that was a weird way of saying that. Even if you're just regular old American like me, please send us your stories. That'd be so cool to hear people's like experiences with Bloody Mary. Cause I'm sure even...
Gina (1:02:16)
We easily could.
Kathryn (1:02:38)
within the United States and UK and all that. I'm sure there's so many different experiences. Even us, we had kind of different experiences with it. Like mildly, but...
Gina (1:02:43)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. we were, when we were that
age, I think we would have been like, what, an hour or two away? Yeah, a couple hours. Yeah. So yeah, please send them in. ⁓ It is fascinating and also my favorite thing. So please. Thank you.
Kathryn (1:02:51)
couple hours apart.
Thank you! Okay.
Gina (1:03:01)
Anyway, do you have a...
Do you happen to have a story for me?
Kathryn (1:03:07)
I do. Yes. we a couple of months ago, we were very graciously invited onto the Jaunty Haunts podcast and we had the best time. It was a great conversation. Go listen to that episode. I don't remember when it came out, I think up October. But Courtney is great. The discussion was great. And we had her send one of her own stories to us so that we could read it to you and.
Just for some context, because this is kind of an alarming story if you don't have this context, Courtney can see ghosts and interact with spirits. And I love her podcast because she's very open about her experiences with that. go listen if you're interested. She has some really cool stories. And this is one of them that I am about to read to you now.
It was the first week after I moved to New York City and maybe only the second time ever in my life that I had taken the subway. I had just gotten to the city and we were living really far uptown at the very tip top of Manhattan and our stop was 191st Street, which if you've been there before, you know that stop is 17 stories underground into the earth. You can feel how far down you're going and it's like the air almost does get a little thicker.
When I moved it was in August, so it was certainly hot and peak humidity for New York. I don't remember what we were going to do. It was something really boring like, let's go and get some stuff at Target because we don't have enough pillows. You know, something really basic. I do know I had that experience every time I move anywhere. You can never have enough pillows. That's like the easiest way to make a place like comfy cozy. Yes, and they're always so expensive.
Gina (1:04:45)
I never have enough pillows no matter how many I buy. Agree. Agreed. Yes. So
fun!
Kathryn (1:04:57)
Yeah.
Gina (1:05:00)
because I drank. I can't stop giggling can't. Okay, I'm sorry.
Kathryn (1:05:02)
So fucked!
So we get down to the subway platform and the energy is really intense. Right away I was pretty shocked. And again, this was my first week living there and I want to make it clear that I had only been to New York one time before I moved there. I had just kind of forgotten that the subway platforms don't have guardrails. And if you live here, you know some of them do now, like some select stations do when they're putting them up. ⁓ But for the most part, they don't. Anyway...
We were at 191st and we were waiting for our train to come. Sometimes the express trains will zoom through the middle track and there were some papers kind of flying around in the air as one of the subway trains was passing in front of another one, this and that. It was just super overstimulating because there was just so many people. Some babies were crying, some people were running around, there was music going on. There's so much that it was just kind of hard.
to guard myself and grasp what was happening. Then add the 119 degree heat, 100 % humidity on top of that, and it became so overwhelming for my senses very quickly. So then I hear almost like a scream or a moan, not like a shrill bloody murder scream, but someone moaning for help. And I turn quickly over my left shoulder to check it out and there's a man.
Gina (1:06:20)
Hmm.
Kathryn (1:06:39)
laying there on the tracks. I know it's a bad way to term this, but it was like half a man. It looked like a person just from the torso up. He was in sort of a white grayish button up with a scraggly striped tie and a dark charcoal gray overcoat that was all patchy and ripped up. It was dragging itself along the tracks and reaching up and moaning toward me.
Gina (1:06:50)
Buh.
Kathryn (1:07:10)
My breath dropped out and I looked at all the people next to me and I realized very quickly, nobody else is seeing this. Okay. It was comforting in a sense because there wasn't really a man down there, but it was also extremely uncomfortable because it forced me to reckon with my reality. Is what I'm seeing actually there? I was so overtaken by the lights, the sounds, the smells, the temperature.
Why would my brain create something even more horrible to add on top of that? On top of this weird city shit sandwich of just trying to get my bearings. And my boyfriend kind of heard my breath drop out and he was like, hey, are you okay? And I glanced down to where I'm seeing the man pull himself across the tracks, reaching up at me. And again, I know my boyfriend's not seeing it, so I just say yes, even though I'm not.
Gina (1:07:49)
You
Kathryn (1:08:08)
Okay.
So this man was clearly a spirit and the way I interpreted it was that this was someone who had died down there and it didn't seem like an accident to me. Maybe he had been pushed or maybe he jumped in front of a train and was cut in half. Yeah. And I want to make it clear, I did not see his legs or the bottom half of him anywhere. It wasn't like he was split. It just was.
the top half of a man pulling himself and moaning like a true Ebeneezer Scrooge ghost story type of wailing for help. I don't know. Then our train came and we left. It was just one of those moments where I just didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know what to do with it or about it.
Gina (1:08:47)
god.
Kathryn (1:09:03)
I tell people just say a prayer if you believe in God because I don't know what else to make of that.
Gina (1:09:10)
Well, the target trip is ruined.
Kathryn (1:09:11)
the story.
100 % there are no pillows that could undo what was done. Yeah.
Gina (1:09:17)
No. No.
No volume of scented candles could make me forget.
Kathryn (1:09:24)
No, not at all. So that's horrendous. Can you imagine? This is your first subway ride in your brand new city and you're just like there's a casual half of man wailing in pain on the tracks.
Gina (1:09:25)
But we can try. That's terrifying. Man, this is...
This is
one amongst a number of reasons why I respect her so much. Can you imagine just seeing that and then being like, yeah, I'm all right. And no one else can see this and it's okay. God, Jesus.
Kathryn (1:09:49)
You have to just be okay. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's horrendous.
Gina (1:09:58)
Yeah, thank you, Courtney. I was like, we'll stick with our other stuff, thank you. I'll stick with that.
Kathryn (1:09:58)
sorry.
Yeah, I'll stick with not seeing that shit. Thank
you very much Anyway Yeah, thank you Courtney for sending that ⁓ If anyone else out there has any stories I almost said stories like this I Highly doubt there are many more stories like this, but if you do have one either like this or something completely different Please send it to us
Gina (1:10:08)
Yeah. Thank you very much, Courtney.
you
Kathryn (1:10:30)
We would love to be able to share it at the end of one of our episodes. We love when you guys tell us your stories. ⁓ Also friendly reminder, we are still sending out free stickers. If you leave us a review, just take a screenshot of your review so we can see it and know who sent it. ⁓ Email it to us, icecreamusgreenpot at gmail.com with your address and we'll send you a free sticker. Yeah, I think that's all. Thank you all for joining us. And until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Gina (1:10:58)
Keep it Creepy!
