Ep. 45: The Cock Lane Ghost
Kathryn (00:10)
Hello, everyone. Hi, welcome. It is September, which means it's officially spooky season, which means you are in the right place because this is I Scream You Scream! We are your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Kathryn
Gina (00:17)
Mm-hmm.
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:30)
And for the month of September, we will be discussing stories... How do I phrase this? The topic for December... What? So sorry. It's not December. So sorry. Spooky season. Spooky season. September. The topic for September is it's not what it seems. So we will...
Gina (00:48)
time Joe.
Kathryn (00:57)
be telling stories that are not what they seem. Take from that what you will. And while we talk about those stories, we will be enjoying ice cream with magic shell on top. As a reminder, we were just one month away from our first birthday, which I can't believe I just like have to land on that for a second. I can't believe it's been almost a year.
So yeah, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Gina (01:19)
right, you got to tell me what ice cream flavor you're having.
Kathryn (01:21)
Okay, so mine's boring but also kind of not It is one of Ben and Jerry's new flavors strawberries and cream With the magic show the chocolate magic shells. We're doing a little strawberry chocolate action with Halloween sprinkles on top
Gina (01:31)
Mmm!
I yum! ⁓
god, that is amazing from top to bottom. Fucking yum.
Kathryn (01:41)
Mm-hmm.
What about you?
Gina (01:43)
I picked up some salted caramel ice cream.
Kathryn (01:46)
That's what I was gonna do. Yep. So Gina and I were talking beforehand and she was very excited that it's officially month of fall and her flavor was spooky season slash fall adjacent. And I had a feeling that that's what it was gonna be because it was between these two flavors for me. The strawberry or the caramel. But I want with the strawberry because I love strawberry and chocolate. But who knows? I mean, maybe like that's not the flavor this month.
Gina (01:48)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kathryn (02:15)
It's just magic shell. So maybe it will change for me. Yeah.
Gina (02:16)
It could range.
Ooh, I kinda like that.
I'll tell you right now, if they had had Ben & Jerry's strawberry and cream at the store that I went to, I would have gotten that, because that sounds delicious.
Kathryn (02:28)
It's very good.
Gina (02:29)
Did you know, so I didn't know this, but at Wimbledon, the big tennis thing they do here, strawberries and cream is a very big deal, which is the first thing that I didn't know. The second thing that I didn't know is that when they say strawberries and cream, they don't mean strawberries and whipped cream or even sweetened cream. It's like strawberries and plain whipping cream.
Kathryn (02:35)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ yeah, I didn't know that.
I didn't know that.
Gina (02:52)
That doesn't sound good, does it?
Kathryn (02:53)
So it's not sweet at all. Not sweet whipped cream, just plain whipping cream. Interesting. I don't think I knew that.
Gina (02:55)
Mm-mm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, my, ⁓
when my aunt and uncle and cousins were over, my aunt, uncle, and one of my cousins went to Wibbleden and they were baffled by it. It was Eric, actually. Shout out Eric. He's the one who taught me this. Eric. ⁓ want like a sweet, refreshing treat.
Kathryn (03:08)
yeah. Hi, Eric.
I would try it. I don't think I would like it.
Gina (03:17)
Mm-mm.
Kathryn (03:19)
For me, it depends on the strawberries though. I am picky when it comes to strawberries. don't, this is gonna make me sound so douchey, but I do not like grocery store strawberries. I don't like a.
Gina (03:27)
No, because they have
all the like the white bit in the middle that doesn't taste like anything
Kathryn (03:31)
Mm-hmm.
They're too big. They don't have a lot of flavor. And I also just don't like cold strawberries. I know that they're usually refrigerated because they last longer, but I just don't. I feel like it fucks with the flavor. My favorite is just roadside farm fresh strawberry from a farmer's stand. I would eat boxes upon boxes of that, but I don't ever buy them from the grocery store because I just they just don't taste the same.
Gina (03:52)
Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Kathryn (04:01)
I don't like them.
Gina (04:01)
No,
they're not as good. They're not as good. But we're past strawberry season now, so sayonara. We've grown.
Kathryn (04:05)
We are. are.
Mm-hmm.
Alright, now that I've sucked down my ice cream, I want to share my hangouts that I've had lately. I've had a very Friends of the Podcast heavy week. So yesterday I got... I almost said ice cream. I'm still thinking of this frickin... This is just so good. I'm gonna go get seconds as soon as we're done here. I got coffee with Friend of the Podcast, Michaela, who I don't think we...
Gina (04:16)
you
you
Heyo!
Kathryn (04:35)
mentioned it. I think we mentioned it in the first version of the Egypt episode. Yes, but I don't think, yeah, I don't think I mentioned it when we re-recorded. She does glass blowing. She makes glass art. So we talked about that a little bit. We talked at length about glass blowing in that episode for Pele's hair. So that was cool. It good to see her. Shout out to Michaela
Gina (04:42)
was it the Pharaohs episode? That where we weren't recording.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (05:05)
Also got dinner with Karen, our number one podcast fan. She says, hello. Hi, Karen. Shout out to Karen. Yes, they're... I... Literally, yes. Yeah, so Karen and Gina have never met, but they will meet in November when Gina is in town. Also, reminder, Gina will be in town, so I'll have another podcast hangout.
Gina (05:08)
Karen! ⁓ I love Karen. Hi, Karen! I hope you're doing well. I can't wait to meet you. I almost said I miss you, and then I realized that would be inappropriate because I haven't met her.
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Kathryn (05:35)
I'm so excited for that. That's going to be fantastic. What was the other one that I was? Oh, this is like the big one. Our girl Christina. That was so much fun. So
Gina (05:37)
same.
Girl Christina, yeah.
Kathryn (05:45)
took a candle magic class with Christina of Windy City Paranormal Festival slash Twats fame, whom we love. And it was so much fun. I do a lot of candle magic just by myself. I've never had anyone teach me anything or give me tips and tricks. And I had the best time. The number one.
pro tip that I want to share and it's so obvious now that I know it but I also think it's so funny is if you don't have time to do a whole ass spell and sit through a whole ass candle burning you can use a freaking birthday candle.
Gina (06:25)
I thought of that.
Kathryn (06:26)
would never have thought of that. They come in all the same colors and it's like a fraction of the time. You could do like a quick like, it's like a travel to size spell. Isn't that so much fun? I loved that. was literally the first thing she said in the whole night and I was like, well, there's my money's worth right there. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, that's so obvious. Yes, of course you can use a birthday candle. Yes.
Gina (06:40)
That's genius. That's so smart.
My mind is blown.
Kathryn (06:57)
But yeah, oil for dressing candles and she helped us put it together based on what we want to focus on and what types of stuff we're gonna wanna do at home. She kind of guided me through what herbs to use, stuff like that. I put in some essential oil. And a secret I wanna share with you and everyone listening, it smells so good. I've been literally wearing it as a perfume.
I have it on me right now. It's supposed to be like for putting on the candle when like you're doing something for it's for like, I remember everything I said, but like, to help me feel more confident when I'm doing spells, basically. It smells so good. And I'm like, well, this, I don't know, don't have to do a candle magic spell to like feel confident. So I just like put that shit on my wrist and go on with my day. Like, it's like my own little perfume. I love it.
Gina (07:47)
Yeah.
What was in the one that you did?
Kathryn (07:52)
Yeah.
So the one that I did had rose petals, red clover. want to say mugwort, but I don't remember. It was either mugwort or something else. And then she didn't have any there, but she told me when I got home to add cloves which I did. And then I don't remember what.
Gina (07:59)
Mm-mm.
Thanks.
Kathryn (08:16)
essential oil I put in, just was like sniff testing all of them and whichever one I liked I put in. But it was like a patchouli or like something earthy like that. So.
Gina (08:25)
That
sounds very autumnal.
Kathryn (08:28)
Yeah, it's yeah, it smells really good. I like it. Yeah.
Gina (08:31)
That sounds amazing. Nice, I
wanna try that now. I've never dressed a candle before. I've read about it. It's part of my witch journey. I'm learning about it, but I haven't done it.
Kathryn (08:38)
Yeah,
I have never dressed the physical candle. have one of my candle holders has a little thing around it where you can put herbs and whatever you want in there. I've never put them actually physically on the candle. And it was fun. mean, depending on what herbs there and just the way like how much oil you put on, it makes the candle burn differently. So that was a fun.
Gina (08:55)
Mm.
Kathryn (09:05)
experience because we did one while we were there. We had a candle lit like for the duration of this class and it was kind of fun. She was teaching us like what you know what to look for in the flame and which way the wick goes can mean certain things in the way the wax strips can wax drip can like mean certain things and blah blah blah. It was cool. I'll share more with you later. Not going to share everything on the top pod but
Gina (09:30)
Yeah, these do.
Kathryn (09:34)
She does, I mean she's going to be doing those classes more often, so we'll share her.
Either website or Instagram. I know she posts about the classes she does in Instagram, so we'll share that. But if you're in the area, highly recommend. It's in like...
Gina (09:43)
Yeah.
Kathryn (09:51)
Wisconsin somewhere.
Gina (09:54)
Somewhere in the state of Wisconsin.
Kathryn (09:55)
Somewhere in the state of Wisconsin.
I don't know if they're all going to be in like the same place or if she's ever going to do any like virtual ones or but like she is also in Wisconsin. yeah, highly recommend. Yes. Yes. I love the I know I love the witchy podcast energy. Yeah, you are though. You're right here.
Gina (10:01)
okay, yeah, yeah, fair.
Nice. Well, that's a bit, well, shout out to Michaela, Karen, and Christina. That's amazing. You had such a pod-y week.
Me too. Even though I'm not there, but I feel like I'm living by carelessly through you. Aw, thank you. My
spirit. I asked to project every night. Aw, little pocket Gina.
Kathryn (10:25)
Dude, can you imagine having a pocket Gina that'd be so dope. You're just right here. Just like what's going on? Yo, you would get me in so much trouble. You'd be like You suck you idiot and everyone would like think it was me
Gina (10:33)
Yeah.
I'm picturing
like a three inch Gina with a huge megaphone.
Kathryn (10:43)
Yup. Yeah, I
would get in so much trouble if I had a pocket, Gina. ⁓
Gina (10:49)
I think it would be really really fun and it's something we should look into when plastic surgery progresses enough.
Kathryn (10:55)
you know that is like when I was a little girl that is something I wished for on a star That was one of my star wishes that I wish that I had a little friend Know that I had a little tiny friend that I could carry around in my pocket Like a little borrower sized person. Yeah See, this is why we're best friends I don't want to be little but I want a little mini pocket friend and you want to be a pocket friend
Gina (11:02)
To be tiny?
Well, maybe one of days. I would love to be that tiny. think that'd be so much fun.
Do you think this is one of those every friendship has? Like every, you know what I mean?
Kathryn (11:23)
Yes! I'm the big one, you're the pocket one. Yes.
Let us know which one you are. iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com.
Gina (11:30)
Yeah.
I love
Kathryn (11:37)
Anyway, speaking of loving things...
Gina (11:38)
Kathryn. Yeah.
I have a story. I have a story for you.
Kathryn (11:46)
I would love for you to tell me a story.
Gina (11:50)
⁓ what? Well, funny you should say that because the story takes place in England once again. shock, I know.
Kathryn (11:52)
Righto!
Big shock. Who'da thunk?
Intro to the Cock Lane ghost
Gina (12:02)
You know what I love, Kathryn? A haunting. You know what I love? Even more than a haunting.
Kathryn (12:07)
What's that?
Gina (12:09)
Fucking petty haunting.
Kathryn (12:12)
Okay, big Gina vibes right off the bat.
Gina (12:16)
Yes, we're
bringing the vengeance back baby, and that's what I have for you today I'm gonna be talking about the Cock Lane ghost and because I am almost 30 I am NOT going to laugh every time I say it instead. I'm just gonna laugh once ha ha ha and now it's done. It's over But it is still funny. Anyway, the Cock Lane ghost is a scandal that took place in London in the 1760s So we've got England. We've got 18th century
Kathryn (12:31)
Hahaha.
Mm-hmm.
William Kent and Fanny Lynes
Gina (12:45)
We've got ghosts and rumors and mysteries. I am in my fucking zone right now. Let's kick it off. Okay. So our story begins with a money lender named William Kent, who in the 1750s married a woman named Elizabeth. There is another Elizabeth later on in the story. So just for clarity, I'm going to call this Elizabeth Lizzy, just to help us separate the two. So William and Lizzy, we're super happy.
Kathryn (12:51)
Absolutely.
Gina (13:14)
⁓ loved each other to the moon and back type of relationship. And shortly after they got married, Lizzy's sister Fanny moved in with them, in part to help Lizzy manage the household, but also because Lizzy was pregnant and Fanny was going to help them with the baby. Unfortunately, our girl Lizzy died in childbirth and pretty soon after that, the baby died as well, leaving Fanny and William alone and grieving in the same house.
So we've got two vulnerable adults alone in the same house with no spouses and no partners. Needless to say, by the following year they had started their own relationship, which already, damn, that happened fast. They also reportedly loved each other very much, but there was a big ass roadblock in their way. And that was that religious law prevented them from getting married.
Kathryn (13:51)
no.
Yeah.
Gina (14:13)
because A, William had been married to Fanny's sister, and B, that marriage had resulted in a living child. So even though the kid hadn't lived very long, it was still like a, hmm, this is a little bit too close to incest, you're not allowed to get married thing.
Kathryn (14:29)
⁓ that's interesting. Okay. ⁓
Gina (14:31)
Yeah,
yep, yep. So they wound up breaking up for a little bit and William did the whole, am sad, therefore I must move to a new location in hopes that it fixes me thing, which always works. And he moved to London without Fanny. Ultimately, their love was just too strong. They started writing love letters back and forth. Eventually she did wind up joining him in London where they got back together.
And the couple decided that just because they couldn't get legally married didn't mean they couldn't act married and just like tell everyone they were married. Because you can tell someone you're married and like no one's gonna say you're lying. Like no one's gonna show me the certificate. Like that just doesn't happen, you know? So that's what they decided to do. They lived together in London as man and wife and fuck everyone else. The only problem was that their landlord was kind of a dick.
he like kind of tried to swindle William out of some money that he had loaned him. So because of that, William had their landlord arrested, which is every tenant's fucking dream. That is the dream and they were living it. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. But that also in doing that, like they kind of, their living situation was thrown into flux very quickly because it was like, shit. Our landlord really fucking hates us now.
Kathryn (15:40)
What? Wait, that is THE dream. ⁓ my god. Wow.
William and Fanny move in with Richard Parsons
Gina (15:56)
We should move somewhere that doesn't suck. Around this time, they met a guy named Richard Parsons, who was a church clerk. And he was this really kind of charismatic, charming guy who just never really had any money because he spent all of it on alcohol. He had a little bit of a drinking problem. Well, not a little bit. He had a definite drinking problem. So when William and Fanny told him their story with the previous landlord, Parsons was like, oh, no sweat, you can live in with me or you can move in with me and maybe you can like loan me a little bit of money. So that's what they did. William wound up loaning Parsons 12 guineas, which today would be $4,200 ish or like just over 3000 pounds. So like a decent chunk of change. And they moved in with Parsons and his family on Cock Lane.
Kathryn (16:43)
Yeah.
Interesting.
Gina (16:53)
And then things started to get weird. Yes. So William, after they had moved in, he went away to a wedding in the countryside. He didn't bring Fanny with him for whatever reason. I don't know if she wasn't invited because of their relationship and they weren't really married kind of thing. I don't know. But he went, she stayed. And while he was gone, William asked Parson's little daughter, Elizabeth, to keep company, or keep company.
Kathryn (17:09)
Yeah.
Keep company, Fanny. ⁓
Gina (17:21)
Keep Fanny company because she was pregnant. And it was kind of like, hey, and Elizabeth was little, she was like 11 ish. So it was like, hey, keep my wife company, like just, you know, hang out with her. You guys can have sleepovers. It'll be fun. So Elizabeth and Fanny hung out while William was gone. And they did, in fact, like sleep in the same room. Elizabeth slept in Fanny's room.
First encounters with the ghost
And that's when the strange sounds started.
At first, Fanny and Elizabeth just heard like scratching and knocking noises coming from the walls. So they told Mrs. Parsons about it. And Mrs. Parsons was like, ⁓ like it's probably just the shoe guy whose shop is next door. Like don't sweat it. It's probably just him. But then the noises came again. And this time they came on a Sunday. And even Mrs. Parsons was like, ooh.
Shoe guy doesn't work on a Sunday, so we have no clue where these noises are coming from. Shortly after that, one of the local pub owners, which fun fact is called a publican, which is very fun.
Kathryn (18:27)
I that.
That's what that is.
Gina (18:30)
I think I'm pretty sure it's publican, Yeah.
Kathryn (18:32)
That's cool.
Gina (18:33)
I always think about pelicans.
Kathryn (18:34)
Yeah, me too. I did think, yeah, when you said that a bird popped into my head. Not any specific bird, but it was a water bird. So I guess a pelican. Interesting.
Gina (18:37)
you
But yeah, water bird publican
guy went over to the Parsons house for just like, you know, visiting, whatever. And while he was at the house, he reported seeing a ghostly figure going up the stairs. Which also, I want to just quickly explain the layout of the Parson home, because it, I think it adds to the creep factor a little bit. So it's three stories, ⁓ one room per floor. And there's one
Kathryn (18:48)
Interesting.
Okay.
Gina (19:11)
winding staircase that links them all together.
Kathryn (19:14)
⁓ okay, that's vibe-y.
Gina (19:15)
Yeah. So if someone
is going up the stairs, like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like it's like kind of everyone's literally on top of everyone. You can't go anywhere without seeing each other type deal.
Kathryn (19:19)
Yeah.
That has spooky dollhouse vibes. Yeah, like a Barbie house or dollhouse or something. Yeah.
Gina (19:28)
It totally does. Yes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so we have sighting number one and pretty soon after that said that he saw it too in his own home So they all kind of formed this theory that it was Lizzy's ghost coming back from the grave to haunt Fanny and William So that's the that's the first theory that we'll talk about William winds up coming back home from this wedding
Kathryn (19:54)
Okay.
Fann’y death
Gina (19:57)
⁓ Shortly after that Fanny wound up catching smallpox and she did not make it. Yeah, she died. ⁓ Which was sad because she was like, I think days away from giving birth and she might have actually given birth but then the kid died shortly after. It was like a similar situation as it was with Lizzy. It was really sad. Interestingly though, when William ordered the coffin for Fanny, he asked if it could remain nameless.
Kathryn (20:10)
I was gonna say...
⁓
Yeah, that's sad.
Gina (20:26)
Apparently so people wouldn't find out about the nature of their relationship, like they were lying about being married. And when the coffin people were like, ⁓ that's fucking weird. No, give us a name. William gave Fanny his last name instead of using her own, which was her actual last name. So like a little bit sus already a little bit weird. Fanny's family was notified of her death and her sister Anne did come to the funeral where she noted
Kathryn (20:36)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (20:54)
that the lid of the coffin was screwed shut, preventing anyone from seeing Fanny's body.
Suspicious and apparently it was done on Williams orders Weird shit weird shit
Kathryn (21:02)
Okay, yeah.
I'm like trying to figure this out but I don't, I know I'm not going to. I'm trying to just follow you on this journey but I'm like what the fuck?
Gina (21:11)
I don't know.
I don't know, I don't know, the theme of the month, this is not what it seems, but maybe it is what it seems, who am I to say? I'm just the humble storyteller, I don't know.
Kathryn (21:22)
Tell me!
Gina (21:25)
Well, I will tell you about the drama of like Fanny's will, because it's actually kind of like, it's like a fuck you, but also kind of funny. So, oh my God, it's so dramatic. So William was the executor of Fanny's will. And she had left him pretty much anything or pretty much everything that she had, which wound up being around 150 pounds back then, which today,
Kathryn (21:31)
okay. I love a dramatic well, I really do. Yes.
Gina (21:51)
would be around $52,000 or £39,000. So again, this is like quite a bit of money. Whereas her siblings, Fanny's siblings, got half a crown each, which is around $40.
Kathryn (22:06)
What the fu- okay, what the fuck? Hmm.
Gina (22:07)
or 30 pounds. Yeah, basically
nothing. So the family was like, hey, this is bullshit. They tried to contest the will and they failed. And William collected his money and went on his way.
Kathryn (22:20)
Okay.
Gina (22:21)
Meanwhile, Parsons still owed some money to William. He had paid back some of the 12 guineas that he had borrowed, but I think he still owed three guineas, which would be like just over a grand in dollars today slash just under a grand in pounds. And William was getting kind of sick of waiting for him to pay it back. ⁓
Parsons had done the whole like, I'll get you next time. I'll have it for you next month over and over and over again. And William was just like, cut it out. I'm grieving, like just fucking pay me my money. So William talked to his lawyer and decided that he wanted to sue Parsons yet again, being litigious towards a landlord, which I just, love it. It is worth noting, actually, I will mention that I think by this point, William was technically living somewhere else. So I don't actually think Parsons was his landlord anymore.
Kathryn (22:51)
Mm-hmm.
Hope.
Yeah.
Gina (23:09)
But still. Yes.
Kathryn (23:10)
But he had been, and it
was still the same argument from when, or I don't know if argument, but the same topic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.
Gina (23:15)
Mm-hmm. Ish, it had to do with money lending. yeah, yeah,
yeah. And so when Parsons found out that William was planning to sue him over this, hold on, my notes do not make sense. Yeah, sorry, I was reading this and I was like, that's not what I meant to say.
Kathryn (23:31)
my God, are you okay? okay.
You looked
like, you literally looked like you saw a ghost. was like, I could tell you were reading your notes though. So I was like, wait, what? Okay.
Gina (23:44)
Okay,
turns out my I saw a ghost face is the same as my I made an error face.
Kathryn (23:51)
Tomato tomato, you know?
Gina (23:54)
So yeah, when Parsons found out that he was going to be taken to court over this whole thing, he did the thing where he like magically came up with the money that he owed to William. Yes, and the debt was settled. basically, William made a lot of enemies very, very quickly. His original landlord fucking hates him. Fanny and Lizzy's family, because they were sisters, fucking hate him. And now Parsons fucking hates this guy.
Kathryn (24:04)
classic.
The Cock Lane ghost returns
Gina (24:21)
But Parsons kind of had bigger fish to fry because the noises had come back again and they all seemed to be coming from his daughter Elizabeth's room. Like whatever lingering spirit there was in the house, it was always centered around Elizabeth. Parsons is like reasonably freaked out by this, you know, I get it. So he went to speak to a guy named John Moore, who was a preacher, like a religious dude.
Sidenote: John Moore was a Methodist and I was raised Methodist so Ayo potlucks, you know what I mean? Yeah
Kathryn (24:53)
Shout out! We've had so many Catholic
discussions. This is our first big Methodist character.
Gina (24:57)
Yeah.
by John Wesley. Noted for beliefs in the supernatural, actually. They were heavily associated with supernatural and paranormal beliefs, especially in the timeframe that we're talking about. Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn (25:09)
Really? I never knew that. That's interesting, I never knew that.
Murder accusations
Gina (25:14)
yeah, he goes to talk to this preacher guy, John Moore, and Parsons told John about what was happening, how Fanny had died, how they think that the ghost is Lizzy, the whole shebang. Talked about it and talked about it. And together, Parsons and John decided that originally, yeah, the ghost had been Lizzy, trying to warn Fanny that she was about to die. And now that Fanny had passed away, her sister's ghost had disappeared.
And Fanny had taken over the haunting. And together Parsons and John devised a way to communicate with Fanny's spirit. So they would ask it questions and in response, the ghost would knock its answers. So like one knock for yes, two knocks for no, and they would just communicate with yes or no questions. So that night,
While Elizabeth was in bed and the noises started, they asked Fanny's ghost some questions about how she had died. And the ghost told them that she hadn't died of smallpox like originally thought, she had been murdered. Specifically, she had died of arsenic poisoning, which William had given her in the hours leading up to her death.
thoughts?
Kathryn (26:30)
I do have thoughts, but I don't know what they are. I mean, obviously William has been suspicious from the beginning, but like, who is saying this?
Gina (26:36)
Mm-hmm.
Vengeful ghost. don't know. I don't know. I'll keep going. so moral of the story is Fanny's back. She wants revenge. She's pissed off that she was murdered. And news of this starts to spread very, very quickly. And William came under very, very public suspicion of Fanny's murder.
Kathryn (26:44)
Please! ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Gina (27:00)
So obviously when William hears about this for the first time, he's really freaked out. So he also goes to talk to John, the preacher guy. And John is like, hey dude, don't be mad at me. All I did was ask the ghost some questions. Here is a list of the questions that we asked so you are aware. And one of the questions was about the nature of the relationship that Fanny had with William. Like basically, are you married to Mr. Kent was the question.
Which she wasn't obviously so William when he saw that on the list was kind of like alright shit Well look the reason why she said no I'm not married to him is because we technically weren't married like you know what I mean He was trying to explain the answers that she had given So John says look dude. I don't think that you killed Fanny But the fact that there is a ghost around here is probably a symptom of you living in sin
Kathryn (27:40)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (27:54)
So why don't you go to the Parsons house, see the ghost for yourself, talk to it, try and settle this whole thing, get it figured out. So William got himself a little crew to go together to the house with, and it included two of the doctors who had attended to Fanny right before she had died. And they go to the Parsons house where Elizabeth had just gotten into bed, which I don't think I mentioned that, that was one of the things. Like it would always happen when Elizabeth was in bed and or sleeping. The noises would start.
was a literal crowd around Elizabeth's bed as she tried to fall asleep because it was such public news that like a lot of people had come to see and they were just, yeah, yeah. And this is like a small, it's not a huge place. So it's like a bunch of people crowded into one dark room with a single candle lit, like very spooky season vibes. That's what it is. Yeah, it is kind of vibing.
The Cock Lane seances
Kathryn (28:30)
Yeah, what the hell?
Yeah.
I was gonna say, that is kinda vibey, yeah.
Gina (28:46)
And it does sound peaceful. But at that exact moment, one of the Parsons family friends, a woman named Mary Frazer who was there, just like got up and started jumping around and running around the room asking for Fanny to come like, where are you Fanny? Come out Fanny. Like she sounds like she was really So, yeah, yeah. And like she'll come back a little bit later. But Mary Frazer is like a bit of a she's a character. You know what I mean? She's a lot.
Kathryn (29:03)
Yeah. I, yeah.
Gina (29:15)
She's
Kathryn (29:15)
Yes, she's a lot, yes.
Gina (29:18)
a card. And Parsons was like, hey, settle down. This is way too much noise. You're going to scare the ghost off. Everyone get out of the room for a second and I'll try and get the ghost back. So the audience leaves and Parsons wound up summoning the spirit by stamping his foot over and over again. And then the audience was allowed back in. So there was like a short period of time where it was only Parsons and Elizabeth in Elizabeth's room.
And then once the audience had returned, they started asking more questions. Are you the wife of William? No. Did you die naturally? No. Did you die by poison? Yes. Did any person other than William administer it? No. And the final question was, will William be hanged for what he did? Yes.
Kathryn (30:11)
Ooh.
Gina (30:12)
Mm. So at that point, William lost his shit a little bit. He like started calling the ghost a liar. He said Fanny would never say something like that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's kind of where this specific seance kind of ended. And I say that particular one because there were tons more of these seances, which we will get more into.
Kathryn (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (30:33)
A week or so after the one William attended, there was a particularly notable seance where Fanny and William's old maid was in the audience. Her name was Esther Carlisle, but she went by the nickname Carrots.
Kathryn (30:52)
blended. I love that.
Gina (30:55)
It's because she had red hair, so everyone called her Carrots
Kathryn (30:57)
Okay,
I was gonna ask if that was why, but I don't. There could be a million reasons why people are called certain things. I love that. That's cute.
Gina (31:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Me too. Yeah.
at the seance, the audience asked Carrots to confirm whether or not Fanny was poisoned. Like as her maid, do you know whether or not Fanny was killed kind of thing? And Carrots was adamant that Fanny hadn't said anything about being poisoned. She had no reason to believe Fanny was poisoned, whatever. Fanny never accused anybody, la la. However, it is worth noting that Carrots also said
Kathryn (31:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (31:31)
that Fanny was unable to speak in the final days before her death, allegedly around the time when she would have been poisoned. So take from that what you will. It is notable, however. And when it came time to communicate with the ghost, they also made Carrots ask the questions this time. So she asked, are you my mistress? Yes. Are you angry with me? Yes.
Kathryn (31:46)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (32:01)
And at that point, Carrot stopped and was like, well, if you're mad at me, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself because I never did shit to you. Like she just went off on this ghost. And that's pretty much where we love Carrot's. my God. Yeah. We love Carrot's.
Kathryn (32:10)
Sweet. Do we like Carrots? Okay, I was gonna say I kinda like that vibe.
If I was talking to a spirit and they were being kinda disrespectful to me, I'd be like, girl, you watch your mouth because I can cut this connection. Okay. You better watch yourself, wall ghost.
The ghost becomes a sensation
Gina (32:24)
I'm sick of it too.
Yeah, you live in a fucking wall.
But yeah, that's pretty much where that seance ended. And in the weeks that followed, more and more and more and more people got wind of what was happening on Cock Lane. And they started flocking to the street and the house to try and see it for themselves. You would get people from every corner of society coming to these things. There's actually a quote about it. It's like a little rhyme. I'm going to read it to you. It says,
Kathryn (32:40)
Okay, interesting.
Gina (33:06)
Fools curious flocked from every part, the rich, the poor, the maid, the married, and those who could not walk were carried. It was like the social event of the season. these seances became a nightly thing with huge crowds of people. Vendors on the streets started selling like fanny ghost merch. Parsons started charging people money to come talk to the ghost.
Kathryn (33:17)
Yeah.
Gina (33:32)
It was like this whole huge thing. This is also roughly the time when the ghost became known as Scratching Fanny.
Kathryn (33:39)
cannot believe I've never heard of this. This is so interesting. Scratching Fanny. That's fantastic.
Gina (33:41)
It's an excellent story. It's a brilliant story. Scratchin' Fanny,
ha ha ha. And one particular night, there was a guy in attendance of one of these seances who just like wasn't buying any of it. He was a naysayer. He thought it was like a hoax or something. And he came with like a small group of people. And once they were in the seance room, which was Elizabeth's bedroom, the skeptic guy took a seat like right against Elizabeth's bed.
Kathryn (33:49)
Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Gina (34:09)
And the people who believed in the ghost were like, Hey, weirdo, like fucking move. That's an 11 year old girl. Get away from her bed kind of thing. ⁓ and he refused to move. And his argument was like, listen, I'm trying to figure out if this is even real. And you not wanting me to sit somewhere is suspicious as fuck, which led to an argument, which led to team ghost leaving the seance. And that entire night, the ghost made no sound whatsoever. Elizabeth, however,
Kathryn (34:15)
Yeah.
Gina (34:39)
went into convulsions, which apparently wasn't super rare. She had a condition of some form. was in my research. It said that she had fits. I'm sure that we have a more scientific slash medical term for that now probably just seizures, but either way she went into convulsions that night and the knocking recommenced at 7 a.m. the next day.
after everyone had left. So there's kind of an obvious relationship between whatever this ghost is doing and how the audience is acting during the seance. It's not like a spirit needs to get something out. It's like you need to coax the spirit out thing. Around this time, Elizabeth started being kind of like loaned out to other people's houses, which sounds fucked up and nefarious, but it wasn't. It was.
Kathryn (35:14)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (35:27)
mainly because people were starting to get really suspicious that this whole thing was made up, especially once Parsons started charging people to see it, because it was like, all right, well, you have like a financial interest in this now, like this could just be fake. So they wanted to see if it still happened when she didn't sleep in the house. even then, even when she wasn't sleeping in the Parson home, the ghost still came.
So it's like, okay, Parson's home isn't haunted, Elizabeth is haunted. And the more seances were held, the better known it became and the more suspicious people became. At one point, Elizabeth was taken to the house of a woman named Jane Armstrong, where she was told she had to sleep in a hammock. And the idea here was that, okay, if Elizabeth is the one making these sounds by like knocking on a bed frame or something like that,
Kathryn (35:51)
Hey.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (36:19)
We'll just remove all of the wood from the equation. You can't knock on anything in a hammock. We'll see what happens. So she's in this hammock and the sounds still happened.
Kathryn (36:22)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (36:29)
So for a lot of people, that was the proof that the ghost really was real. And this is kind of when like the peak mass hysteria over this case was happening. Like literally everybody fucking knew about it. You had, there's at least one instance of like a Duke coming to one of these seances. It was like the nobility were involved, the poor people were involved, everybody everywhere. It's like all people wanted to talk.
Kathryn (36:35)
Yeah.
Gina (36:55)
which kind of seems like a running theme in 18th century London. I don't think they had enough to do.
Kathryn (36:59)
and also this is very tabloidy type stuff, but the world was smaller then. So it was like, if you read about stuff, you could just go knock on that person's door. wasn't some like Hollywood thing. You know what I mean? It was like, everyone was kind of in everyone's business. Right.
Gina (37:04)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was easier to see.
Yeah. And that's a really good point because Cock Lane I'm pretty sure it's right by Smithfield's Market, which is one of the main, like big markets in London. So it was a very busy area anyway. Yeah. I don't think that's the one that we've passed through. Yeah. People would pass by and be like, there's Cock Lane. There's a huge crowd of people. Why don't we see what's going on? Pick up a ghost hat or something.
Kathryn (37:23)
Yeah.
So people would just pass on by.
Yeah.
Some merch
Gina (37:36)
I don't know what they were selling. He has some merch. I believe in scratching Fanny.
Kathryn (37:43)
Ha!
Gina (37:44)
So kind of like at this point when everybody's freaking out, John, pastor guy from earlier, goes to go see William. Because remember William is like being accused of this murder and the bigger this ghost story gets, the more scrutiny William is under. So John goes to William and he's like, hey, I think
Kathryn (38:00)
Yeah.
Gina (38:05)
this thing has gotten a little out hand, and I also think it might be a hoax. I'm going to help you prove it." So they started kind of keeping an eye out for clues, as it were. Meanwhile, Parsons was not really in a great place by this point either. He was dealing with a lot of people saying that his daughter was faking it. And so to squash those rumors, he allowed his daughter to be examined and tested.
And one of the ways they tested her at this point was by putting her in another hammock for the night. The noises started as usual, but when they placed Elizabeth's hands and feet outside of the hammock, the noises mysteriously stopped. And for two nights, as she slept like that, there were no noises. Then in the lead up to another test, Elizabeth's maid saw her sneaking a very small piece of wood into her pocket.
Kathryn (38:52)
weird.
What?
Gina (39:04)
He
had been caught. It was Elizabeth making the sounds.
It's not what it seems.
Kathryn (39:13)
I like, okay,
so.
was everyone fooled by her? Like were the guys in on it at all or was it just her doing shit?
Gina (39:23)
So interestingly,
we'll talk a little bit more about this later. We believe Parsons was in on it. We believe a few other people were in on it. However, Parsons never actually confessed. But we think that he was, William was not in on it. He was innocent.
Kathryn (39:30)
Okay.
but William was not in on it. Man,
okay, that was, I really thought it was him most of the time. Obviously Elizabeth had something to do with it at a certain point, but I really was blaming him for most of the story. Sorry, William. Yeah.
Gina (39:44)
Yep.
I know, because his actions really sound like the one that made me say that first was the screwing of the coffin shut. But the reason why he did that is because Fanny had smallpox. So her skin was messed up by the time. And like, he didn't want people seeing her like that. So it was actually an act of kindness rather than. But it doesn't come across that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.
Kathryn (40:01)
⁓
Okay.
Home, see? Don't expect that from men in the 18th century. That is also not what it seems. Okay,
interesting. Okay. I wasn't expecting the wood. I wasn't expecting the little piece of wood. I thought you were gonna say she was like double-jointed and being gross and weird or something like that. I know. I honestly, I've heard stories like that where like during like spiritualism and stuff, people would do that.
Gina (40:21)
So Elizabeth has been taught.
It's like cracking her thumbs.
Kathryn (40:36)
where they'd like pop and act like someone was like popping, like knocking or something like that. That's what I thought you were gonna say. Yeah. I was not expecting a whole ass piece of wood. That's fun. Hmm. Okay.
Charges and the trial
Gina (40:41)
That's crafty. That's very clever.
Mm Yeah. So once news of this started to spread that Elizabeth had been seen sneaking a piece of wood into her pocket, public opinion shifted hard. People started thinking that not only had Elizabeth been faking it, but that her father Parsons had been ordering her to do it because like we talked about, it was a cash cow. He was making so much money off of this thing. And also because he fucking hated William. He had a vendetta against him. So it was kind of like a two birds with one stone.
Kathryn (40:53)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (41:16)
make money, ruin the reputation of this guy I hate, potentially throw him in prison. No downside, except for getting caught and all of London hating you. Sorry Parsons. John wound up, John the pastor guy, preacher guy, whatever, wound up publishing a statement saying that he thought William was innocent and he acknowledged the ghost thing was a fake. But because he had been involved from the start, it was too little, too late.
Kathryn (41:26)
Yeah.
Gina (41:43)
five people were ultimately charged for the hoax. John the pastor guy, Parsons, Mrs. Parsons, Mary Frazer, the character. Yeah, because it was kind of, she was so vocal about it that she was seen to have basically aided and abetted this hoax by making it such a big deal. And she was also a very, I think she wasn't a relative, but she was a really close family friend. So she had some involvement with
Kathryn (41:54)
What?
Mmm. Okay.
Gina (42:12)
And then also a different guy who we haven't talked about named Richard James got arrested. And he ⁓ had printed and circulated a lot of the material about this, specifically the material that accused William of murdering Fanny. So they were all charged with conspiracy. And what that meant is that all of them knew the ghost was a fake and that they knew the accusations that the ghost made.
could have resulted in William being executed for the murder of Fanny. So basically the charge was like you tried to get this guy killed by lying, essentially. So the trial began on the 10th July 1762. Real quick, all of this happened within like a year or two. This was very fast.
Kathryn (42:50)
Yeah.
Okay, I was gonna ask because I know was like kind of rapid fire at the beginning, but then it was hard to tell how long all of this was, I mean, hoax can only last so long with so many people like trying to, but I couldn't tell was this couple weeks, couple months, couple years, I don't know.
Gina (43:08)
Yeah.
No, it was really, really fast. Whatever the hoax version of a spring fling is, that's what it was. Summer fling, whatever. So yeah, the trial began about, I think it was like two years after Fanny died is when the trial actually happened. And the defendants, again, were accused of conspiracy to kill William by accusing him of Fanny's murder, blah, blah, blah, blah. And on the prosecution side, the court heard from our girl Carrots.
Kathryn (43:17)
Okay.
Gina (43:44)
She was one of the witnesses. And then also Fanny's doctor who went on record saying that the poisoning story was complete fucking bullshit. Then he was one of the ones who had like taken care of her as she lay dying. ⁓ The defense brought their own witnesses as well. But the court had a really, really hard time taking them seriously. Like the claims of what the ghost was and did and said.
Kathryn (43:58)
Hmm.
Gina (44:11)
were just so outlandish that it really alienated the courtroom. It's kind of similar to what we talked about in the, ⁓ it wasn't Mercy Brown. the fucking one with Trout and was it Zona?
Kathryn (44:24)
So, Hester's Zona. Greenbriar, yep.
Gina (44:26)
Yes, the Greenbrier ghost. Yeah, it's kind of the inverse of that, how in that trial they made a point to not talk about the ghost very much, whereas in this one they talked about it too much and it was a little bit too, all right, well that's not proof of anything kind of thing. So ultimately the trial went on for almost 10 hours and when it ended it only took the jury 15 minutes to find all of the defendants guilty of conspiracy.
Kathryn (44:35)
Okay.
Whoa.
Wow.
Gina (44:55)
Interestingly, also, like just a few days later, two additional people were also arrested and held responsible for defamation against William and they were charged 50 pounds each, which is $17,000 or 13,000 pounds. It's so much money. And those are just like the side guys, the people they picked up after the fact.
Kathryn (45:12)
my god.
Gina (45:16)
As for the defendants in the actual trial though, they were brought to prison. and the printer guy both got out pretty quickly because they paid William damages essentially. And it was a lot of money. Back then it was 588 pounds, which today is just over $200,000 or $200,000.
Kathryn (45:27)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (45:35)
about 150,000 ish pounds, fuck ton of money. And to be fair, I don't know if they paid that like if that's together or if they each had to pay it separately. Either way, William, William walked away with a lot of cash. But the rest of the accused, so Parsons, Mrs. Parsons and Mary Frazer couldn't pay up. They were basically given seven months to come up with the money and they either didn't or couldn't.
Kathryn (45:38)
god.
That's a lot.
Gina (46:02)
which meant that they had to be formally sentenced. So Mrs. Parsons was imprisoned for a year. The family friend got six months of hard labor, poor Mary Frazer. And Mr. Parsons was given two years in prison alongside being put in the stocks three times within a single month. Yeah, and apparently like, no, go ahead.
Kathryn (46:02)
Thank
my God. That's like.
No, I just, that is just one of those things I forget that that's real. Because I feel like my only experience with people getting put in socks is from like Looney Tunes. Do you know what I mean? It just, I forget that that is a thing that did happen. Like that just sounds so bizarre to me.
Gina (46:32)
I know.
Yeah. ⁓
with like the rotten tomatoes and shit like that. Yeah. Yeah, interestingly, there was none of that when Mr. Parsons was in the stocks. People actually felt bad for him. So they like took up a collection, like they passed around a thing for people to put money into to donate to Parsons because he was, people felt bad for him.
Kathryn (46:46)
Yeah, and everyone's throwing like onions at them for some reason. Yeah.
you said he never officially confessed, right? Was there like a question whether he was actually guilty?
Gina (47:08)
He never confessed.
I'm sure there were in certain circles. History knows him as the hoax guy though. Like it's pretty widely accepted that, Elizabeth was fine though. Yeah, Elizabeth, I was happy to know, wasn't really held responsible for any of this because she was a fucking kid. She was just like allowed to go home. Yeah, it wasn't her fault.
Kathryn (47:14)
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Like retrospectively, okay.
I was gonna say she was a child. Even if it was
her doing, it's like kids do weird shit.
Gina (47:34)
Kids do weird shit, and especially if your parents are telling you to do something.
Kathryn (47:38)
Yeah.
Gina (47:39)
and that's my story. don't have a soapbox to get on this week. I just thought it was funny and fun and I liked it.
Kathryn (47:42)
I love that story. That's such a good
story. I cannot believe I've never heard that story before. That sounds like something that would be like something I would have stumbled upon at some point. You know what I mean? That's interesting. Yeah, I like that. Good story. Very vibey. Yeah. Yeah. That was a perfect spooky.
Gina (47:53)
Weird yeah, it's weird. I love it
Thank you! Welcome to Spooky Season and It's Not What It Seems Month.
Kathryn (48:06)
season story. feel like mine are this month are not spooky. I did not consider spooky season when I put mine together. That was perfect spooky season. Yeah, that's true. That was a good one.
Scary on top
Gina (48:12)
We can make any story spooky.
Thank you. But on the topic of spooky, scary things, do have a scary on top for me?
Kathryn (48:19)
You're welcome.
Yes,
I do. In lieu of having a spooky episode for you this month, I have spooky scary on top for you. So we have been chatting with some of our podcast friends and our friends over at Tea Tales and Talks sent us a few personal ghost stories of theirs. So we have a few. We're going to be spreading them out. I'm going to start.
Gina (48:35)
Yay.
Wait...
Kathryn (48:54)
with one today. After this, highly recommend the podcast. Go check them out. They're great.
This first story that I'm going to read today is titled, Little Girl Ghost in Niagara Falls. Yup. Immediately gross. Okay. I was like seven or eight, I went to Niagara Falls with my parents.
Gina (49:08)
⁓ okay.
Kathryn (49:17)
aunt, uncle, and little cousin. We went to a bunch of wineries and hikes and saw the falls. It was great from the little bits I recall. We weren't really planning on staying for more than just the day, but for some reason, we ended up staying the night. My parents found one of the only non quote, sell an arm and a leg type of expensive hotels that actually had rooms available. Isn't that so like with your
strapped for a room and you're like, we weren't planning on staying, but now we're in this like tourist destination. Night of hotels are like $7 million. So I get that. Anyway, it says we just needed something for one night. So in the room, there were two double beds. I had the bed closest to the window.
Gina (49:51)
Yeah.
Kathryn (50:03)
If I can remember correctly, there was either an old walled off fireplace across from the beds or a faux mantle with the top and side pieces just stuck to the wall. Anyways, I woke up in the middle of the night to turn around. Now I have to note that I woke up facing the window and I went, ugh, and when I turned my eyes, I had to go over the whole room and yes, past the faux fireplace.
I remember very vividly seeing what looked like the back of a little girl in a light pink dress sort of hiding in the corner of the mantle. So her back was toward me. I remember there was a bow on the back of the dress. I freaked out. I was so terrified and the type of terrified where you almost get cold sweats. I hate that feeling. Do you ever get that feeling? It's that like electric shock like, duh.
Gina (50:51)
Yeah.
⁓
Kathryn (50:57)
Kind of scared. Yes. Like, ugh.
Gina (50:57)
can like feel it spread through your whole body.
Kathryn (51:03)
I shut my eyes quickly in fear that she would see me seeing her. And with my eyes shut tight, I felt the presence move from the wall near the fireplace around the bed and toward the window, which was now where my back was facing. I know. Quickly.
I woke up my mom and said I was scared and she came to the rescue and slept in my bed with me. Thank goodness. But I remember even with my mom being there, the lingering feeling of something super dark and negative. was much scarier than anything else I had ever seen. Thinking back on it now, I wonder if it was even a little girl at all or something much darker.
Gina (51:50)
⁓ that's such a good scary story. ⁓
Kathryn (51:54)
creeping behind her and like the slow
walk around the bed. That's... The feeling of something behind you is just... I can't do it. I can't do it. ⁓
Gina (52:00)
OOF
And kids, kid go- like kids are great,
love kids, they're fucking creepy.
Kathryn (52:10)
Yeah, I love a living child that's not a ghost in my Niagara Falls hotel room. Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (52:14)
Okay.
Yeah. God.
We should do like a Niagara Falls thing sometime. Cause there's like a lot of weird shit about Niagara Falls.
Kathryn (52:25)
You know, that's one I don't know anything about Niagara Falls. I know I've heard Yeah, I've heard people I've heard like what you just said I've heard like Niagara Falls. It's so spooky and I'm like, why someone tell me about it I've never heard Anything I mean, well, that's a thing water has a lot of energy and they say
Gina (52:28)
There's some weird shit.
you
Mm.
Kathryn (52:47)
if there's a haunted place near water, that is something that can like stir up a lot of energy, like spirits and stuff. So I could see that area being like pretty active. I just don't know. I've never heard like an actual story about it. So thank you for sending that one in. That was great. We have more from Tea Tales and Talks friends. We will, like I said, we'll read more over the course of a few episodes and ⁓
Gina (52:54)
That makes sense.
Kathryn (53:15)
If any of you out there listening have any stories you'd like to share, we would love to have them. Feel free to send them to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com yay, happy Scoop, Boof, happy, I almost said happy Scoopy season. ⁓
Happy spooky season!
Gina (53:35)
on that note, until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (53:35)
Anyway.
Keep it Creepy.
