Ep. 42: Pele’s Curse
Gina (00:11)
Hello. Welcome to I Scream You Scream. I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:15)
I'm Kathryn
Gina (00:16)
And for the month of August, we're telling stories about curses while we enjoy each other's least favorite ice cream, which kind of worked out because we both happen to really like each other's least favorite ice cream. ⁓ It is almost our one year podcast birthday, which I cannot believe the countdown has begun. That's just.
Kathryn (00:25)
Yay!
Gina (00:36)
banana sandwich to me. But the only thing that's on our birthday list this year is if you would leave us a review or a rating or something, click a button and let us know that you're there because it makes us really happy and it also helps us appease the algorithm gods and we don't want to be on their bad side, especially on our birthday.
Kathryn (00:53)
and especially in curses month.
Gina (00:56)
Especially in Curse's Month. Yeah, that's a good point. Double whammy. So grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Kathryn (01:02)
Yay. I do have to tell you about this ice cream that Phil bought and I am happy that we finished it because I was tempted to eat it today but it would not have followed the rules at all. It was, he got it from Kopps I think it was the ice cream of the day. Sorry, custard, custard. Sorry, it was custard, not ice cream. I know, I know. And...
Gina (01:07)
Okay.
Mmm. Gotta watch that.
Kathryn (01:29)
It was red velvet ice cream, which tasted like red velvet cake batter with crushed up Oreos in it. But like when I say crushed up, I mean, there were bites of Oreo. Like it was not they did not skimp. It was delectable. So good.
Gina (01:40)
my God.
That's what I want. When an ice cream has chunks in it, it needs to have
chunks, not like Oreo dust, not tiny little whispers of cookie dough. Fucking big.
Kathryn (01:55)
Nope. It was like one
bite was like half a cookie. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it was so good.
Gina (02:00)
Yes, that's exactly what I want from an ice cream. Did I ever tell you that
when I lived in Wales, there was this chick that ⁓ she had like an independent ice cream business and she had, she didn't have like a car or anything, but she would just ride around on like a bicycle that had a freezer attachment on it. And she would just like, sell like door to door ice cream kind of stuff. It was awesome. And she had, it was amazing. She had a lemon and mint flavor. That was
Kathryn (02:22)
us the dream.
Gina (02:30)
So fucking good.
Kathryn (02:30)
my god.
Have you ever had fresh made lemonade with mint leaves in it? Gina. Yep. I guarantee that that... well, I mean, it's literally the same flavor of that ice cream, so yes, I guarantee it tastes similar. But like, I know that it's like ref... a glass of lemonade, an ice cold glass of fresh made lemonade is so refreshing in the summer. Add mint?
Gina (02:36)
No? I can see that being good though. I see it. Ugh.
Yeah.
Mmm.
Kathryn (02:59)
On top of that, the most inherently refreshing thing you could put in your mouth. I just can't. I can't even explain how refreshing it is. I'm going to make lemonade. I'm going make lemonade this weekend. I just decided in this moment.
Gina (03:07)
Good.
Did you know they don't have lemonade here?
Kathryn (03:13)
I don't want you to finish that, stop.
Don't finish that sentence. Stop talking. I'm so upset right now. You already broke my heart with the whole apple cider situation. I don't need you to ruin summertime in England for me too.
Gina (03:22)
And moving on.
Yeah.
Have
you had Pimms before? That's a delicious English summertime drink.
Kathryn (03:36)
No,
tell me all about that.
Gina (03:39)
So I don't know how to describe it. It's just Pimms. It's like this, it's a jug of booze. The brand name is just Pimms. You buy it at, you the store and you just put it in like one of those big, ⁓ container-y, not like a cooler, but like the ones that has the tap on it where you can like, you know what I mean? ⁓ and you put, throw a bunch of ice, you throw like some Sprite or Tonic or fizzy water or whatever you want in there.
Kathryn (03:43)
Okay.
⁓ so far so good.
yeah, Yep.
Gina (04:06)
You throw a bunch of fruit and some cucumbers and some mint and you let it kind of sit and it turns into one of the best hot weather drinks in the world and it also gets you drunk. So extra points.
Kathryn (04:19)
That feels like, like the grownup thing I'm thinking of is like a sangria. The not grownup thing I'm thinking of is like a jungle juice. Remember jungle juice? my God, really? I was never in, I was never in charge of it, rightfully so.
Gina (04:29)
Oh, I remembered, I was in charge of making jungle juice once and I was home by 9.30 p.m.
I should never have
been trusted with it. That was a mistake. I don't think Jungle Juice is a thing. I think that might just be an American thing. Jungle Juice is when you just put a bunch of shit.
Kathryn (04:44)
Jungle juice is just yeah,
I don't even know if it's an American thing. It is a college thing. Like specifically American college like freshman year can't get into the bars yet thing. Yeah, no, no self-respecting adult is just like kicking back with a jungle juice. If you are that's great love that for you. But like that's not a normal thing outside of graduation. Should we?
Gina (04:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Imagine a businessman coming home with his little
briefcase after a long day of doing taxes, kicking back with a jungle juice.
Kathryn (05:13)
and kick it back with a jungle dance.
Honestly, this is something that I think we should start doing.
Gina (05:22)
That's what we're going to have at your not a bachelorette bachelorette party.
Kathryn (05:26)
We should. I don't even know what jungle juice is. It's just no one does.
Gina (05:28)
No one does. Does
it have a correct definition?
Kathryn (05:35)
I don't know and I kind of don't want to know. That seems like I'm too old to know that information now. Do kids still do that? If you are in college or of the age where you would be in college, do you know what jungle juice is? Are you drinking that? Are you okay? Are you sober? Is everything all right? How are your grades? Let us know. icecreamyouscreampod at gmail.com. Yeah. Do you have a DD?
Gina (05:40)
Me neither.
Do you need us to come get you?
Kathryn (06:03)
Are you walking? Do you have a buddy? Let us know.
Gina (06:06)
Just
call us when you're ready to go home. We'll come get you.
Kathryn (06:09)
Yes.
Yeah.
Gina (06:12)
my God, jungle juice, yum. Anyway, I got nothing for you today. Nothing has changed.
Kathryn (06:15)
Anyway.
I listen, yeah,
I'm just gonna finish my ice cream and then we can jump in. I'm excited for this one.
Gina (06:28)
You know, man, it's
a good day to have a podcast. It's a good day to record. I'm excited, too. I know nothing, once again, nothing about this. I feel like I'm always in this position with your episodes and I love it.
Kathryn (06:33)
It is.
Let's just jump right on in. I will say, I don't know, the only trigger warning I have is I worked real hard to pronounce all these names correctly and I'm gonna be doing my best. So I do apologize if I stumble, because I'm still like, you know, when you Google...
the recording of a name pronunciation and you find five and all five of them are totally different. That's what happened. So I am so sorry. Yeah. So I'm going to be doing my best, but it's probably not going to be great. So thank you all for your patience.
Gina (07:04)
my God, yes. The stress. You got it.
Meet Tutu Pele
Kathryn (07:13)
Today I'm gonna be talking about the goddess Pele, who is often referred to as Tutu Pele or Madam Pele, just as a sign of respect. And she is Hawaii's goddess of volcanoes and fire, which.
immediately love you know how I feel about a lava. I love a lava flow so much. I do. I really do. The forbidden goo. Yeah. Cinnamon's here now. Sorry if you can hear her Do you want to hear about Tutu Pele Come here.
Gina (07:31)
Hell yeah.
The forbidden goo.
You
Kathryn (07:46)
Okay, so it is said that she is the one who created the Hawaiian Islands. And according to ancient Hawaiian folklore, she is the daughter of Haumea. I believe this is where I start getting scared of names. I think it's Haumea. She's the Earth Mother, AKA goddess of fertility. Fertility? Fertility and childbirth.
Gina (08:10)
Fraternity?
Kathryn (08:12)
She's definitely not the goddess
of me pronouncing shit correctly, that's for sure. And also the daughter of Kuahailo, who is the sky god and also the god of war, as I feel like it always goes. So basically, Earth Mother, sky god, she was born of Earth and sky. She was born in the Pacific and depending on...
source you choose or the stories you've heard, there are a lot of different versions of her origin story, a lot of different legends kind of explaining how she came to Hawaii and how exactly the islands were actually created. So I'm just going to tell my favorite version of the story, the one that resonated with me most, just know that it is one of many. So if you have a different version or if there is anyone out there that's got, you know,
Additional details on this version. Let us know because I really love this story and I would love to hear more iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com so ⁓ In this version Pele was born in Tahiti and from the moment she was born her parents just knew that she was going to be something special she was beautiful smart strong ⁓ Pardon the cliche, but she just had a fiery personality like she was very
She was just everything. She was just wonderful from the jump. They knew she was going to do great things. Pele had many siblings. According to most sources, she was one of 14. She had 13 siblings. six, yeah, six sisters and seven brothers. So split 50-50 in this instance. As they grew, Pele's eldest sister, Namakaukai,
which I literally, I literally fell asleep saying it last night because I was like, it's like my mantra, I'm sorry if it's still wrong. Namakaukai, ⁓ her eldest sister, she became very jealous of Pele. She was, she just absolutely hated her because she, you know, she was the beautiful one, the smart one, the strong one, the this and that, but most importantly, the powerful one. She had a lot of innate power within her.
Gina (10:04)
Good job!
Pele’s sibling rivalry
Kathryn (10:30)
that Namakaukai did not have and she was just very jealous. It was very clear that Pele was going to be the most powerful in the family and her sister just hated that. When Pele got a little bit older, like teens, early teens, I think, I couldn't find exactly how old she was when this happened, but her uncle gifted her this stick.
And it wasn't just any stick, but it was like a magic digging stick and the stick had a name. It was, I think it's pronounced Pah-wah? Pah-wah? Pah-wah? Think of it as like kind of her divining rod. ⁓ It kind of connected her to the earth. It was like her magical connection to the earth.
Gina (11:19)
Mmm.
Kathryn (11:22)
I don't want to say magic wind, I don't want to cheapen it, but it kind of was like a stick version of that. Like it allowed her to kind of manifest her power, is the best way I can explain the way I'm understanding it. ⁓ But it was like its own thing, it was named, it was this powerful tool that she could use. And her uncle gave it to her as a way to kind of learn how to harness her powers and control.
Gina (11:32)
Okay.
Kathryn (11:49)
what she had inside of her and manifest it in a way that was controlled and kind of constructive versus, you know, think of all those movies where there's like a coming of age like witch or goddess or something that's just like shit's going, shit's hitting the fan. It was kind of her way to harness her innate power. So one day she was kind of playing around with
Gina (12:03)
Mmm.
Kathryn (12:12)
power the stick and practicing using it without her uncle's supervision. like I just said, as the story goes, things kind of got out of hand and she ended up burning down the sacred lands of her home. So not good. Yeah. So everyone was upset. Everyone was, you know, worried about what this meant.
Gina (12:29)
Ooh, yikes.
Kathryn (12:39)
particularly Namakaokai was absolutely furious, like wanted to murder her because it felt personal to her. It was kind of like a see, like she's not all that great kind of moment for her sister. So she was absolutely livid and was set on destroying Pele. So.
Gina (12:53)
Mm-hmm.
The Creation of the Hawaiian Islands
Kathryn (13:01)
Pelé needed to escape and she bid her parents, parents? What the hell's a parents? She bid her parents farewell and you know, basically I'm not safe here, I need to bounce. They were like, okay, cool, take your siblings with you. ⁓ They all fuck off to the Pacific Ocean. I don't totally understand that part of the story. I think I'm missing something. I don't know if it was a like, keep your siblings safe or.
Gina (13:20)
You
Okay.
Kathryn (13:31)
like, you
know, they will help keep you safe. But for whatever reason, I think part of it was her older brothers are going to help her navigate. For whatever reason, I'm so sorry, I couldn't find a definitive this is the reason why. But some of if not all of her siblings went with her. I do think she was told to take her littlest sister to help keep her safe. ⁓ Again, there's a lot of different versions of the story. So
Gina (13:41)
⁓ okay, okay.
So.
Kathryn (13:58)
know, if anyone out there has a particular version where the reason her siblings went with her, please let us know. Regardless, no matter the reason they left, they all left and Namakaukai was chasing them throughout the Pacific as a wave. Like she was manifesting in like these really rough waters and basically chasing them around. Like she was chasing them in this boat. I know, very aggressive. So
Gina (14:23)
on.
Kathryn (14:26)
They're sailing all over the Pacific trying to escape her sister and they finally come upon these islands. They were very small islands and Pele hops out of the boat and she is on what is now Kaui, one of the Hawaiian islands, and she starts to dig with Pawa. And she's searching for a spot on this island where she can live and be safe from Namakaukai and also ⁓ be able to manifest her
fire powers safely without hurting others. So she was looking for safety for herself and a spot where other people would be safe from her essentially. So she's digging frantically trying to get deep enough to protect herself from her sister until eventually she hits water. She digs this pit too deep and water starts to fill. The light from the sky
hits this water, reflects off of it, and indicates to Namakaukai that that is where she is. She can see the light as a result of Pelle's digging. So Pelle hops back in the boat, they fuck off to Oahu, where she does the same thing until her sister finds her, etc, etc. This keeps repeating on each of the Hawaiian islands.
she's digging these pits and subsequently creating all these mounds that would become the hills and mountains and volcanoes of Hawaii. Yeah. So like I said, she keeps repeating all these patterns until eventually she got to Maui and she decides that she cannot keep living like this. She can't just keep running. Like she's not able to find the safe space. This just isn't going to work. So she decides to...
Gina (15:49)
Wow.
Kathryn (16:09)
face her sister head on, they get into this battle, which I'm like, what the hell? Wild. So these two sisters, fire and water, duking it out. ⁓ Each one is like trying her hardest to overpower the other one. Eventually, Namacaucahi creates this big giant like end of days tidal wave that defeats Pele. So Pele is gone. She is dead, allegedly.
Gina (16:15)
Wow.
Mauna Loa & Pele’s rebirth
Kathryn (16:39)
And then Makaka is all snide and proud of herself for defeating the great and powerful Tutu Pele when all of a sudden there's a rumble in the ground. She looks over in this giant volcano now known as Mauna Loa, which fun fact is currently the largest active volcano on earth at the time of this recording. I don't know how fast these things happen, but in the future right now it is currently. ⁓
Gina (17:01)
Cool.
Kathryn (17:08)
And she sees this mountain, she sees this volcano, and it is just bursting with fire and torrents of lava, and like very active and just like billowing with this flame and ash and all of that kind of scary volcano stuff. And that's when Namakaukai realizes that she did not defeat Tutupele at all. And in fact, no one ever will because now she resides within the earth.
and her spirit is in this volcanic rock and on the islands. And basically, this battle did nothing but piss her off. And the power of her destructive fire forces are too great for anyone to overcome. So that is my favorite version of Tutu Pele in creating Hawaii. Yes. Like I said, there are a lot of other versions of her origin story. Another version is
Gina (17:58)
love that.
Kathryn (18:08)
⁓ pretty similar, but just as simple as she was itching to travel. Like there was no battle, there was no anything dramatic. She just wanted to see the Pacific, so she collected all her siblings and off they go, eventually ending up on the Hawaiian Islands, where she felt free to let her lava flow. So it wasn't like she was trapped. That was just where she ended up. That's where she felt safe.
in another version of her story, same thing happened, but the gonna say the catalyst of how the story got started was just the fact that she liked to stay close to her mother's fireplace and she would be, they basically had a fire keeper who would watch over her.
and Namakaukai didn't trust that they were going to do a good job to keep her powers at bay, essentially. And that was the case. She was like, we got to like, fuck this bitch, she needs to get out of here. And that was the reason that the whole story happened. So a lot of different versions, there's even more than the ones I've named. But there are ⁓ basically she she ends up on these Hawaiian islands, either stuck or of her own volition. And her spirit now resides in the earth, specifically the volcanic rock.
Gina (19:08)
Mmm.
Other Pele legends
Kathryn (19:22)
Now I will say there is one other story that was presented as a kind of origin story, but I would argue that it could happen. It could be something that complemented or came after, you know, or in addition to the stories we've already told. But in this story, Tutu Pele is still the goddess of fire and volcanoes, but she also has a lot of power over the whole ocean itself, which is power that was inherited by her mother. And at one point, Tutu Pele's husband got seduced by another goddess. I believe it was her sister, but not sure this is another one that different stories say different things. Some versions of the story, it is like a different version of Pele.
So that gets into a whole thing we don't have time for. But I find it very interesting. And if anyone does have time to write out the details of this, please send it to us so that we can share with everyone else. Regardless, she goes to find her husband because he was seduced slash put in like a trance by whoever this other goddess was. And it essentially ran away with her.
Gina (20:20)
I love that.
Kathryn (20:43)
slash was kidnapped, I don't know the specifics of that. So as she was searching, the ocean was pouring out of her head, basically the equivalent of her like crying as like a goddess. And it was creating floods all over the Hawaiian islands. And it is it is said that as a result of this, she doesn't just control lava flow, but she's also in charge of like lightning and wind and the way
Gina (20:55)
Aww.
Kathryn (21:09)
the ocean kind of like moves around and interacts with the islands and like ocean life and the life on land and all that. it was the loss of her lover in this story and the betrayal from her sister that made her susceptible to jealousy and bitterness and she holds grudges for a very long time. So it is said that when you see like a storm rolling in over the ocean, that's Tutu Pele's anger
So, I mean, but all of that is to say, as time went on, that overwhelming power of the lava and the fire and the destruction that it can cause and the power that it has over the land and the people and how they live their lives, et cetera, et cetera, garnered a lot of respect from the Hawaiian people. And, you know, Pele is often worshiped not just as a fire god, as
just this great and powerful being, you know? So some people say that erupting volcanoes and wildfires show Pele's wrath. historically, people have been taught to fear Pele. It's very much, I hate making this connection, but it's the closest one that I can make in this Western world. But it's almost like that
of guilt and fear. Like when you say someone is a God fearing person, they kind of had like that sort of relationship with it of like, you don't do anything wrong or you'll upset Pele and she will like cast fire upon us all. That kind of became one of the traditional beliefs. But in that fear was also kind of a respect and a reverence. ⁓ But she is another one that is
Gina (22:34)
Mmm.
Kathryn (22:53)
often very severely misunderstood because all of the wrath and rage and all of this stemmed from the fact that her sister chased her all over the ocean and trapped her on this island and she was trapped in the earth. Like she didn't like necessarily choose any of that, you know, so it's just kind of a classic goddess story. I challenge anyone to find an origin story of any goddess that like was her fault. That is like a news like hill that I will die on. So
Gina (23:07)
Fair.
You
Kathryn (23:23)
⁓ Even though she has significant power that can be extremely destructive, she's also really important in keeping nature in balance. Fire is very important and before...
honestly, before climate change ruined the earth, fire was a very important part of the natural cycle in a lot of locales because that can kind of create space for new growth to happen. And that's something that she was slash still is kind of revered for because there's nothing more nutritious than
fire soil. I don't know how to say it. What is it called? Like, do know what I'm saying? Yeah, like ashes from fire is so nutrient rich, that, like that's why places that have volcanic ash and rock are so lush and green. So again, it's kind of like that dichotomy between she has to be destructive in order to create this vegetation for the people in order for them to survive. So it's like, yes, you can be scared of her.
Gina (24:05)
Yeah, like nutrient rich. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mmm.
Kathryn (24:31)
but also thankful to her, you know, to draw a pop culture reference. The goddess Te Fiti in Moana is very largely based on Pele. Did you ever see that one? Yeah. She's the island and she's this big scary monster that everyone's like scared of throughout this whole movie and the you got to defeat Te Fiti. But then it's like she actually just needed to sleep, you know, and she turns into this beautiful lush.
Gina (24:44)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because she's like the island. Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Kathryn (25:01)
green floral island that's kind of she she was animators drew inspiration from Pele and there were other goddesses ⁓ that they drew inspiration from but she is the one that people will most closely associate to her that's kind of her whole vibe so because she's so integral in the formation of the islands
Like I said previously, it is believed that her spirit lies within the land, specifically the volcanic rock, ash, sand, anything that was created from the lava. One thing many people tend to do when they travel is collect rocks, which I know you know this, I will say upfront, I am one of those people. My dad and I do have a tradition where whenever we travel somewhere,
Gina (25:49)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (25:54)
like in nature or anything like that. We do, I will say actually as a preface, back up even more, we always check local ordinances and laws before we do this. I don't want anyone coming for me, I'm sorry. It is important to do so and if, you know, it is safe to take rocks or pieces of land or whatever, we will do that and that is the souvenir that we bring for each other. ⁓ And that is a very popular thing that a lot of people do in
Gina (26:18)
Hmm.
Kathryn (26:24)
Hawaii because it is so known for their unique lava rocks and stones and know crystals and all that kind of stuff. ⁓ I do want to land on that and say these local ordinances are in place to protect the land so I'm not just getting on my high horse to get on my high horse because this whole episode is about the dangers of taking rocks home. Spoiler that it like
Gina (26:51)
okay.
Pele’s curse
Kathryn (26:51)
In addition to a curse that I will tell you about here in a second, it can be also dangerous to the land. So if you are going to be collecting rocks internationally or outside of your local whatever, make sure you just check to make sure it's safe. Anyway, on that note, one of the things that pisses Pele off the most is when people take pieces of her spirit, aka rocks from her land.
home with them and leave Hawaii with them. some of the most popular and kind of sought after Hawaiian lava rocks that people will take for souvenir purposes are, ⁓ I actually never know how to say this. Is it peridot?
Gina (27:36)
I don't know, it's one of those words that I read in my head and I don't say out loud.
Kathryn (27:40)
Even as I was writing my notes, I was like, I know that stone, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm realizing in this moment, I've never said this word out loud. So, Peridot, Ollivine, and the only one I know for sure is Obsidian. So those are the ones that people are most often, you know, taking with them when they're on vacation in Hawaii. And it is said that if you take any of these or any other lava rocks home with you,
Gina (27:49)
same.
Mm.
Kathryn (28:07)
Pele will curse you as punishment for disturbing the land. There are numerous stories out there about people ignoring this curse and bringing rocks home anyway. The curse people experience most often manifests in health related issues. People will bring home a stone and then either they'll come down with something debilitating or someone they love will pass or get very sick like pretty immediately thereafter.
There's also a ton of stories about people getting home and like immediately losing their jobs, ⁓ which I've kind of like that one. It didn't make me laugh because like, sorry, you lost your job. But I do think it's kind of funny that it's like you get home from vacation and I'm like, shit, did you just like forget to turn something in before you were gone in Hawaii for two weeks? Like that's where my head went with that one. I'm like, are there correlations or is this cause and effect? So I'm sorry.
Gina (28:59)
You
Kathryn (29:05)
But that was just kind of where my head went. But in addition to the job thing, there's also been stories about people like getting in horrible fights with their spouses or, you know, filing for divorce, just like all of these big tragedies that people will connect to, that happened right after I brought this rock home from Hawaii, you know. So some people say that the legend started with park rangers and it
Gina (29:27)
Mmm.
Kathryn (29:34)
wasn't anything more than just park rangers, tour guides, people like that just getting sick of people not following the local ordinances and not listening to the rules that I mentioned earlier that are important to follow. And out of frustration, creating this legend so that people would stop disrupting the protected and sacred lands. ⁓ Which I just have to say
if that is the origin of this story, I say snaps because even if this isn't some ancient legend, you still should not take rocks from protected lands. you know what I mean? So yeah.
Gina (30:14)
That, yeah,
the idea of like, I feel like this is the adult equivalent of when you were a kid and your parents were driving you around at night and they'd be like, you can't turn the light on inside the car because otherwise I'll crash. Like, and they fucking won't, but they make shit up to get kids to fall in line. This is the, yes, it's illegal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kathryn (30:25)
Yes! Yes.
or it's illegal. We were told it was illegal. Yeah. Yes, that's
exactly it. I'm imagining this like bus driver, this, you know, bus tour person just like, for the last time, stop taking rocks. And finally, someone was like, why? Well, why is it so bad? Because Pelle will curse you. It's like, what? Yeah, exactly. Which I could, like, you just shouldn't be disrupting the land, you know, and again, you know, just...
Gina (30:49)
You're gonna get fucking cursed!
Yeah.
Kathryn (30:59)
Even if it's not true, even if this curse is not real, even though you're safe from the curse, it doesn't mean that you're allowed to destroy nature. All right, like that's kind of, that's kind of it. So with that being said,
Gina (31:08)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (31:14)
these people are closer to the land like these ⁓ tour guides and park rangers and people who have kind of a firsthand experience with the land and in these sacred and protected spaces. ⁓ A lot of that energy.
is hard to understand unless you feel it. So it could very well be like they genuinely believe that there is a curse, not because of some ancient story, but because they've seen so many people take rocks and like therefore bad things happen, whether to that person or to the land. at the very least curses can be created just by believing them to be true. That is a real psychological thing that
Gina (31:43)
Hmm.
Kathryn (31:59)
has been proven time and time again. if these people say, hey, you're going to be cursed if you take that rock, people are going to notice negative things happening to them more if they have this rock in their possession. And I think the opposite can be true, that the more these people are seeing people take pieces of the land, the more they're going to notice issues with climate change and
migration patterns and all of that. So, I don't know, I'm about to go down a rabbit hole of just following the rules when it comes to nature.
Gina (32:39)
Never in my life did I think I would hear you go on a rant about following the rules. I agree with this rant, but it's just very, yeah. I, yes.
Kathryn (32:43)
Okay, but do you...
The caveats of when it comes to nature, you know how I am about that shit. ⁓ Any other rule, who gives a shit? But when it comes to protecting land, for the love of God, just don't steal nature is all I'm saying. We've done enough of that throughout history. Like it's, we're done. We've moved on. That's below us. So, yes, exactly. Take from this what you will. I personally do believe in the curse.
Gina (32:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Curse.
Kathryn (33:10)
If for no other reason than what I just said, curses can be created just from giving them life and believing them to be true. So if we put energy into the idea that this curse is true, then it's going to be true for those who believe it to be true. As simple as that, that's the main reason I believe it to be true. I did look into stories online about this
and people experiencing this curse, and I'm gonna be totally honest, I thought it was gonna be way harder. There are so many stories about people sending rocks back to Hawaii because they've experienced negative things. ⁓ It happened so common, or it happened so often that people have created, I don't wanna say companies, but kind of.
Gina (33:44)
wow.
Kathryn (34:03)
Like there are companies in Hawaii that advertise like, hey, if you have a rock that you don't want anymore, here's an address you can send it to. Like we'll take it and put it back into nature for you. Like that's how often it happens. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. I found one that, and some of these stories came from this one. It's like, ⁓ I think it's like a jewelry handcrafted source. So I think they're just like taking these rocks back and making jewelry out of them.
Gina (34:15)
That's my new job. That's my new job. I'm the rock guy.
Kathryn (34:32)
Which
Gina (34:32)
My god, that would be awful.
Kathryn (34:34)
I'm like, that's kind of, what's word I'm looking for? Redundant? I don't know if that's the word I'm looking for, but I'm like, you're just taking someone's cursed rock and like giving it to someone else? For those who are listening, don't do that. Exactly, like this is probably like a tour, you know, whatever, souvenir for someone. I don't know if the rules apply if you...
Gina (34:45)
Who is also probably gonna... Yeah.
Yeah.
Kathryn (34:57)
don't intentionally like if you are not the one that takes it from the land, I don't know how the I don't know the rules of Pelé's curse. But I don't know, I just I thought that was kind of funny. In the way that like it's also kind of shitty like, but the point in me bringing it up. Cheeky. Yes, that's a perfect way to describe it. The point of me bringing it up is that's how common this is people are like searching for an address to send this rock back to a lot of people just
Gina (35:01)
Mmm, mm-hmm.
It's very cheeky.
Kathryn (35:24)
planned another vacation to Hawaii so they could take the rock back themselves, you know? But for those who cannot afford to do so, there are addresses out there you can send your rocks back to. But I found some, I'm gonna read some of them to you, some of the letters that were accompanied, these rocks that were sent back to Hawaii. And I know, I just think they're interesting. Anyway, I have a couple. One is, this first one is from Florida.
Gina (35:29)
Come on.
Kathryn (35:52)
It says, are returning these lava rocks to you in hopes that our recent string of bad luck will again turn good. The rocks were taken during our trip to one of the volcanoes. We regret taking them and would tell any family or friends visiting the beautiful state of Hawaii the same thing. Do not ever take rocks from Hawaii. Exclamation points. Please accept our sincere apology.
Please accept our sincere apology for disturbing Madam Pele. This one came from Pennsylvania. Enclosed are some rocks and black sand that I brought home to show our children following our visit to Hawaii in September 1999. This is my last hope at peace and happiness. The last several years of our lives have been un-
Gina (36:21)
apologize. ⁓
Kathryn (36:48)
bearable. When things begin to look up for us, something crushes us back down to the bottom. I'm so sorry for removing this sand and hope that its safe return and my sincerest apologies will restore peace, harmony, and success in our lives.
Gina (37:06)
Man, I wish they had like follow-up letters to be like, yo, everything's fine now. Damn.
Kathryn (37:09)
I know, me too. It's like all of
these letters are just like, hey, I'm miserable and desperate to be okay again, please take these rocks in case this is the culprit. But it's interesting because I'm going to read one more from Texas. This one came from Dallas that this one's a little bit different and I want to talk about it. It says, please return the enclosed lava rock to Madam Pele. It was taken from the roadside on the big island.
Gina (37:21)
Yeah.
Kathryn (37:37)
our tour guide assured us that it was okay to take it because it wasn't from the national park or any sacred lands. He also mentioned that the lava was used for making gravel, pieces of artwork, and some of the locals use it for barbecue grills. I haven't had any bad luck, but having the rocks makes me very nervous and I just want to send it back. So this one I think is interesting because this kind of goes back to
Gina (38:02)
Hmm.
Kathryn (38:06)
the origin of this legend and how it was created to protect rocks from sacred and protected lands. I think it's interesting that this person didn't notice or have any bad luck and it didn't come from sacred lands. And that's one of those things. You can either use it as proof as it's dangerous to take it from sacred lands or you can use it as proof that like
this is a mental game and he, somewhere in his psyche was like, it's not sacred, so therefore I'm not having bad luck, we just need to get rid of it just in case. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's interesting the way curses are created because you can call that proof for either side, you know?
Gina (38:35)
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah, like, it's itch because I, in my opinion, I think anxiety is kind of bad luck. You know, like just, yeah, like just because something physical is like your house hasn't burned down, like your car, you know, hasn't been crashed into or so that doesn't mean you don't have bad luck. like mental health can be so luck of the draw.
Kathryn (38:59)
I totally agree, yes.
No.
That's a great point. Mm-hmm.
yeah, that's such a great point. I didn't think of it in so many words, but that's a great way to describe it. Yeah. OK, I do have one more story that I want to share just to close out my section that I want to hear you scary on top. So this last story, I say in my notes that it's quick. I'm probably going to ramble. But this one comes from my father, which
I love.
Gina (39:38)
in, something
started to tickle my brain when you mentioned that this was Hawaii because I feel like I remember us talking about this years ago. Okay, okay, hit me with it.
Kathryn (39:46)
we did
because I told you about this text that I am going to read you. Yes, but you probably don't remember the specifics because the whole reason that I told you about this was because...
Gina (39:50)
Mm-hmm.
I don't remember.
Kathryn (40:00)
My father only just recently started telling me like spooky and weird stories upon the creation of this podcast. Before I had this podcast, this was totally out of the norm for him. I think this text that I received from him was only the second, maybe first or second, like superstitious type of thing I've ever heard from him ever.
So I told you about it, because I remember being like, this just came from my father. Can you believe this? Now he's like Mr. Ghost Man, as far as the listeners are concerned. He's the only one sending us stories, truly. So anyway, four contacts for everyone else. My parents were on vacation in Hawaii a couple of years ago. I think it was 2022.
Gina (40:31)
Hanging out with Bigfoot. ⁓
Kathryn (40:42)
first thing in the morning, I get this text from my dad. Yesterday morning while walking on the beach, I found a beautiful black rock and some smaller stones. Since it's a public beach and not a state or a national park or protected land.
I picked them up to bring them home to you. A half hour ago at around 0500 hours, side note, yes, we use the 24 hour clock in my family. Quick context, my parents worked in logistics, like international logistics. So for everyone listening, for everyone in America listening, because we're like the only place in the world that doesn't use 24 hour clock, it's not called military time Americans.
Gina (41:08)
That is so dad.
Mm.
True, yeah.
Kathryn (41:25)
Fun fact, it's just the 24 hour clock. It's okay. We do the same shit with measurements. I don't know why. We just have to be unique. Anyway, while mom was in the shower, I decided to Google what type of rocks they were. I discovered the black one was obsidian, a volcanic rock. I then read that though it was legal to take, Pele, the goddess of volcanoes, will curse anyone who takes rocks from the islands.
So I jumped out of bed and went down to the beach to return the rocks to Pele under the cover of darkness. I was on, I know. Can you say, I'm imagining like I spy spy just like. Yes, that's exactly what I'm imagining. He says.
Gina (42:00)
Ooh.
He's like ducking and rolling. It's Ken.
Kathryn (42:19)
I was on a concrete boardwalk with sand directly below me and waves gently rolling in. I dropped the rocks into the ocean and apologized to Pele, asking her for forgiveness. At that exact moment, a ginormous wave bigger than anything that had been rolling in previously came crashing in and crashed into the breakwater, spraying water several feet above me.
The water was completely calm again immediately after. I took a picture of the rock. I'm not sure I even want to send it to you, just in case. I'll ask someone on the big island if that will be safe because that is Pelé's home. He never did send me a picture of it, I don't think. So maybe someone said no. Yeah. So yeah, that's my story of Pelé. Yeah.
Gina (43:06)
so maybe someone was like, just in case, don't. Yeah. ⁓ there's so many things I love about that.
Do we think she was saying thank you for the genuine apology and for returning that? Yeah, I think so too.
Kathryn (43:17)
I think so. That's, he and I talked
about it when he got home and he said that was the vibe that she was like acknowledging. Yes, this is the right thing to do and thank you.
Gina (43:28)
I love how your dad just has like casual spiritual experiences with gods.
Kathryn (43:33)
That's
such a fucking dad move. Like you're just, you don't believe in anything like spooky or weird my entire life. And then all of sudden you're like, Hey, I'm in Hawaii and just had a life changing spiritual experience thought you should know. Like what? What the lava goddess? Yes. Okay, dad. Hope you're having fun. Like, yeah, have fun on that hike later. I don't know what, but that's
Gina (43:36)
It is.
with a lava goddess.
Wow, I love that.
That
is so cool.
Kathryn (44:02)
I
feel like that's such a good, I've never been to Hawaii, I would love to go, but I do think that that's such a good example of how, like when you're in and around land, especially ones that you're not used to and lands that are ancient and have so much rich history, like that shit can turn the most like unspiritual, atheist, non-believing, whatever.
into someone that like, at least suspects, you know, like when things are that spiritually heavy and lands are that like rich in history, I think that that's a pretty normal experience to have.
Gina (44:33)
Mmm.
Yeah.
I think so, because you can feel it in your soul. You just can.
Kathryn (44:48)
You can,
yeah, you can't. Like I was not, this was an astonishing text to get from my dad at the time, but at the same time, not at all, you know? Yeah. If he had just been like out for a walk in the neighborhood, I'd be like, are you okay? What are you doing? Did something happen? Like, do you need to talk?
Gina (44:56)
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That would be so, I'm just picturing my dad being like, I picked up a rock by the lake and now I'm cursed. That would be hilarious.
Kathryn (45:17)
like
my god well good luck to you
Gina (45:20)
Well, come with me.
I tip my hat. Good luck.
Kathryn (45:26)
Right.
Alright.
Gina (45:28)
Is that, was that your story? That was really fucking interesting. I really want to go to Hawaii now.
Kathryn (45:29)
That's my story.
I me too.
Gina (45:37)
But on the topic of like vacations, do you wanna hear a story that has to do with booze?
Kathryn (45:43)
Always. Yay!
Gina (45:45)
Because I have a scary on top for you.
All right, cool. So ⁓ a couple of episodes ago, we did a haunted bar bucket list where we talked about each of our top three pubs or bars that we most want to go to in the world. And I want to tell you about one that didn't make the list for me, but it was a strong contender. So this is my official extremely honorable mention because I think it's so interesting. So I'm going to tell you about the bucket of blood inn.
Kathryn (46:07)
Mmm.
Ooooh
Gina (46:19)
Mm-hmm. Yes. It is a pub in Cornwall, which is way in the southeast. no, southwest. Yes, that's how directions work. Southwest of England. ⁓ There's kind of like a little foot that sticks out, almost like how Louisiana has a foot. It's like that kind of thing. It's all the way down there. Side note, it's fucking stunning there. It's like a very popular vacation and retirement spot. It's gorgeous, but also prohibitively expensive. So I don't know why I'm saying it doesn't matter. Anyway, so.
Kathryn (46:20)
What's that?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
We'll stop there
on our way to Tahiti.
Gina (46:51)
Yes, we'll have a layover in Cornwall, England on our way to Tahiti.
Kathryn (46:55)
It's the eating.
⁓
Gina (46:59)
⁓ It could be, depending on the direction we go in.
Kathryn (47:00)
not how directions work.
Yeah, we got time.
Gina (47:07)
Yeah. So the bucket of blood in, there's a rumor, well, there's a few rumors about how it got its name. And the most popular rumor is that it comes from an incident that took place many, many years ago. In this story, the landlord went down to the well to fetch some more water because the well was on the pub's property for some reason. I don't know. I don't know how wells work. And he gets to the well.
He lowers the bucket, waits for it to fill up with water, pulls it back up. And when he sees the bucket, it's completely filled with blood. So this opened a whole investigation. And they found that a customs officer had been brutally mutilated, murdered, and his body had been hidden in the well. And that's why it had filled up with blood. The general consensus, yeah, the general what people think happened is that
this customs officer had gotten on the wrong side of a smuggling ring who had taken their revenge on him and thrown him in the well. There's also a competing rumor that the name comes from runoff from tin mining in the area. Like, it just turns the water red. But that's way less interesting, so I don't believe that one. Regardless, the pub is also said to be haunted. Specifically, there is a phantom monk.
Kathryn (48:24)
Yeah, no.
Gina (48:32)
that people see lurking in the shadows at the pub. It's not uncommon. I fucking love, because what funny little guys, you know? Is that offensive to say? ⁓
Kathryn (48:36)
You love a phantom monk.
No, I knew you were gonna say
that. I mean, I guess, I don't know, I'm not a monk, so it doesn't offend me. Sorry to any monks out there. Yeah. Why are you, yeah.
Gina (48:51)
What are you doing? It's because my understanding
of a monk is like, you know the Robin Hood that they made where it was all animals? Yeah, the monk from that is what I always picture. Is he like some kind of, fuck, what was he? Friar Tuck Robin Hood.
Kathryn (48:57)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Oh my god, yes. The best ravenhood. Oh, what is he? He's the...
We can't share a picture of it because it's Disney.
Yeah, what is it?
I think it's a bear, I don't remember. Or a bunny? I don't know. Those are different things.
Gina (49:17)
I thought it was
like, ⁓ no, this is like a non-animal. wait, no, maybe it's a badger.
Kathryn (49:23)
yeah, it's a badger. Yes, yes, it is a badger.
Gina (49:26)
Okay,
okay, yeah, all But yes, yes, that's who I think of. So when I think about monks, it's just like, you know. Anyway, no hate if you're a monk, I'm really sorry. But yes, there's a monk that hangs out in the pub. It's also not uncommon for tables and chairs to move all by themselves. ⁓ And according to the staff, it's not uncommon to experience sensations of being shoved in the back.
Kathryn (49:28)
I think. Anyway, yes.
That's funny.
you
Gina (49:54)
only to turn around and no one is there.
So that's the bucket of blood in. Interesting.
Kathryn (50:01)
Weird. ⁓ I wanna go there.
Gina (50:03)
Yeah, I know.
I wanna go to all these places with you.
Kathryn (50:08)
Me too. There is, it's not a pub, but there is a bookstore, a horror book bookstore in Chicago called Bucket of Blood Books. It is a great name. It's very tiny, but it's good. They've got a lot of, I mean, I haven't been there in years. It's where I bought my copy of The Omen, but they've got a lot of like old mass markets in addition to like new releases, which those are just the best. Like,
Gina (50:20)
that's a great name.
Mmm.
Kathryn (50:36)
There's some weird shit out there. But anyway, I was just thinking of that we should go on like a bucket of blood. Tour de bucket of blood. Because I'm sure there's other weird shit called that.
Gina (50:46)
There's gotta be, it's so much fun to say.
Kathryn (50:48)
Well, and I was thinking of that ⁓ with the white horse because there's a lot of stuff called white horse. There's a lot of... this is a stupid thing to say, but there's a lot of stuff that shares a name and I just think it's so fun, like the idea of just visiting all of the things that have the same name. That'd be such a weird road trip. We should do that.
Gina (50:52)
There's so many white horses. Yeah.
We should totally, that
would be good. That would take us to some really interesting places. I'm down for that. That'd be fun. ⁓
Kathryn (51:11)
Yeah, I think so too! Yeah.
I think we should do that.
Gina (51:16)
Hell yeah. Okay. Man, if nothing else, this podcast is giving us a very long to-do list and I'm here for it.
Kathryn (51:21)
Listen,
it's only gonna grow longer. I've never like our travel list is so long and things will come up on Instagram that I literally have a folder for us that is ice cream you scream travel goals and it's just gotten to the point where there's just almost too much. I'm like, my god, we got to get we actually do need to get started because there's so many things to see in this world. This world is too big.
Gina (51:48)
Can I tell you something funny about Instagram reels? Well, because I was thinking about the folders you can make on Instagram, and it just made me think of this. So you know how if you send reels to someone, you can have a shared folder that you save things to? So Tom and I have a couple of them. We have one for house stuff. We have one for really funny things that make us laugh. And then we have one for food.
Kathryn (51:49)
Yes. ⁓
Where is this going?
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (52:15)
And I can't remember why, but the name of the folder is Butts. And so it's part of like our day-to-day lexicon now. We'll be like, what do you want for dinner? I don't know. We should like look at Butts, see what's in Butts. Just cracks me up. Anyway, that's the end of my story.
Kathryn (52:19)
Sure. Sure, why not?
You
Sweet,
I love it. I love it.
Gina (52:38)
All right, cool. thank you all for joining us. And until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (52:44)
Keep it creepy.
