EP. 41: The Von Erich Family Curse
Kathryn (00:10)
I had trouble finding my dish just because it's so long since I used it, because we've been drinking this whole last Anyway, okay.
Gina (00:17)
Yeah,
I also did too. And then when I was scooping the ice cream, was like, I haven't used these muscles in my wrist in a while.
Kathryn (00:22)
Yeah, was
like, wait, this is weird. I don't like this. But anyway, happy to be back at Ice Cream on this very hot day. But okay, hello. Welcome to I Scream You Scream We're your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Kathryn And it's a new month. Welcome to August. While already fucked up.
Gina (00:27)
I know, where's my alcohol?
Same.
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:51)
During the month of August, we're going to be telling stories about curses and our ice cream flavor is we're eating each other's least favorite ice cream flavors, which actually ended up working out for us. We'll tell you about that in a little bit. As a reminder, it's almost our birthday. The countdown has begun, the two month countdown. And the only thing on our wish list this year is for you all to give us a five star rating.
So we would love you forever if you did. ⁓ And if you don't, we still love you. We're happy you're here. ⁓ Yeah, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Gina (01:26)
Mm-hmm.
I'm actually really excited to try this.
Kathryn (01:30)
Yeah, I'm excited for you to try it too. I love how we both, wait, tell us what you're eating.
Gina (01:35)
I am eating pistachio ice cream. And what are you eating, Katherine?
Kathryn (01:40)
I am eating, what did you say, the chocolatiest chocolate ice cream I could find, so I am eating, oop, I just squeaked, sorry. ⁓ I am eating Ben and Jerry's non-dairy chocolate fudge brownie, and I topped it with chocolate chips in the spirit of what you requested.
Gina (01:54)
⁓ yes.
⁓ Excellent choice.
Well, let's give it a go.
Kathryn (02:02)
Ooh, yeah, that's rich.
Gina (02:05)
This is really good.
I didn't go for a cheap brand this time. I got a fancy brand and it's so good. Because it's like salted a little bit. Like it tastes like I just ate it, like the aftertaste of a pistachio. Exactly what I'm experiencing.
Kathryn (02:10)
I feel like you can't with pistachio. Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm. So I do have a confession now that we're locked in to the flavors. I don't know if I've ever had pistachio ice cream. I just hate pistachios and the thought of pistachio ice cream grosses me out. So I hate it so much that I won't even try it.
Gina (02:26)
Ha
Okay. That's okay. I haven't
had the ch... I don't actually know if I've had the chocolatiest chocolatey ice cream since I was like little kid. So I just know I won't like it.
Kathryn (02:43)
See, there you go.
Pistachio is one of those things. I'm positive Phil has gotten it before, and I'm positive I've made him let me try it, or like he's told me to try it. It's like, I know somewhere in my heart of hearts I've tried it. I just, I've repressed it or something, you know? Because I was gonna choose Butter Pecan because that's Phil's other favorite.
Gina (03:04)
Ha ha ha
ha ha ha.
Kathryn (03:05)
And I just make
fun of him for loving it so much, because like what in the 85 year old? But I actually don't, I don't hate butter pecan. I do like butter pecan. It just is nowhere in my top list of ice creams I would want. So I had to, I basically chose like what does Phil like, therefore I hate it. Whoops. Yeah. That's marriage. Okay, wait, did we?
Gina (03:25)
Romance, yes. I mean, to be fair, chocolatey ice cream is Tom's favorite and I fucking hate it.
Kathryn (03:34)
What theme are we doing this month? Our respective partners' favorites slash they're for the ones we hate.
Gina (03:43)
I was thinking
our partners don't know anything about good ice cream. That's what I was thinking the theme could be.
Kathryn (03:47)
Yeah, well that too, of course. Yeah,
of course. That goes without saying. Which is honestly funny because between the two of us, Phil is the ice cream person. I'm just doing this for the bit.
Gina (03:52)
Hehehehehe
Hahaha!
I don't know what, no, Tom's just, he's a chocolate person. Anything with chocolate is his number one.
Kathryn (04:06)
Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah.
That's me too. I will say, I will tell you right now, this is definitely too rich for me. This is not gonna be a five out of five, but I'm enjoying it. Little spoiler for our last episode this month.
Gina (04:19)
Heheh!
Well, let's check back in. you'll come around to it.
Kathryn (04:24)
Yeah, maybe things will change. Yeah, I don't know. Who knows?
I do have one thing I want to tell you before we jump in. I'm going to a concert tonight. And I'm not super familiar with this band. This is very much a Phil band, but I enjoy it. It's not one of my tops, but.
Gina (04:32)
What's up?
Kathryn (04:43)
we can edit that out. That makes me sound like I hate it. Anyway, so it's this band called the Blood Incantation and the venue at which we are going to see this band is the Bohemian National Cemetery in Chicago. And I'm so excited because this is the most Kathryn and Phil date we will have ever been on. Yeah. I'll be taking so many pictures. Yeah.
Gina (04:45)
Ha!
That is so fucking cool. Please take pictures while you're there so I can look back here. Okay.
Kathryn (05:09)
Yeah, we're going down a little early because
Gina (05:10)
So.
Kathryn (05:11)
it starts at 6, so we don't want to get like drive down in rush hour. So we're going to leave here like as soon as you and I are done recording. I'm going to change real quick and then we're going to
Gina (05:24)
That's going to be amazing because the sun is going to set while you're
at the show and so that's going to be beautiful.
Kathryn (05:29)
also we went to a concert last night too. So it's been a.
Gina (05:33)
Yes, how was that?
Kathryn (05:35)
It was good. I was enjoying myself. I was just kind of vibing. Also there was a moth and I just could not, I could not shake the fact that there was a moth in this theater. I kept just watching him vibe I don't know. I just like.
Gina (05:48)
Imagine being
that moth.
Kathryn (05:50)
I was imagining being that moth the entire concert and I have a children's book written.
Gina (05:53)
Hehehehehe
I'm looking forward to the day when you start writing children's books because you have a back catalog of fucking great ideas.
Kathryn (06:03)
I've got outlines for days. I have a whole Google Drive folder of outlines and brain dumps. I have so many series.
Gina (06:13)
It's cute because it's like your children's books are children right now. They're in their child phase. They'll get there.
Kathryn (06:21)
That makes me want to cry. That's so sweet. That's such a sweet idea. And also just gave me another idea. That's such a good idea. You should write that one.
Gina (06:30)
You'll raise them. Raise them to be little mongrels.
Kathryn (06:33)
a good idea.
I love that.
Gina (06:35)
evil children's
books.
Kathryn (06:37)
Yes. no, what if my books are gonna be cursed just like this month? is this our transition?
Gina (06:43)
This is a great transition. We can use this as a transition.
Kathryn (06:44)
my god, wow! Just like the
story you want to tell me today, do you have a story?
Gina (06:50)
I do have a story. Are you ready for a story? Okay. Let's do it.
Kathryn (06:52)
I think so. Yeah, I think so.
The Von Erich story begins
Gina (06:54)
Today's story is one of the most devastating in American pop culture history. It's a story of ambition, legacy, and a family of professional wrestlers so plagued by tragedy that people to this day blame it on a curse. So trigger warning right at the top. This episode is gonna be really fucking sad.
I'm going to be talking about drug abuse, suicide, and accidental deaths, including the death of a child. It's a lot. Also, this next part is not really a trigger warning, but it's a heads up. I'm also going to be talking about pro wrestling a lot today. So before I get into the actual story, I want to hit on two key points first, because they're important for understanding everything that comes next. So the first.
and I feel like a nerd saying it, but it's true. The first is that there's a difference between fake and predetermined. Pro wrestling is predetermined insofar as who wins and who loses, but what happens in the ring, and more importantly, the impact it has on your body, is very, very real. The second is that wrestling is just as much about characters and storytelling as it is about kicking people's asses. Things like...
public perception and your personal brand matter so fucking much in wrestling that some people will do anything to protect what they've built. This is the world that we are walking into. So without further ado, this is the story of the Von Erich family.
Meet Fritz Von Erich
Our tale begins in Texas with a man named Jack Barton Adkisson. I keep wanting to say Adkinson, but it's not. It's Adkisson.
Kathryn (08:46)
That's what I thought you were trying to say. Okay, Adkisson Okay. Yeah, that's weird. It feels wrong, yeah.
Gina (08:50)
It's like your mouth doesn't want to, I know, yeah.
But that's okay because more often than not, he went by Fritz Von Erich. That was his wrestling name. He was a pro wrestler that debuted in the 1950s, which was right around the time when wrestling was starting to become the big spectacle that it is today. And from the very, very start, Fritz wanted to be the best in the business. He was trained by Stu Hart.
who was a very well-known guy in the wrestling biz. He still gets brought up a lot today. And fun fact, Fritz trained at something called the Hart Dungeon, which was actually just Stu Hart's basement. But to give it credit, it has produced some of the greatest and most successful wrestlers of all time. So training at the Hart Dungeon was some serious shit. It's really impressive. So when Fritz found out...
Kathryn (09:28)
Mmm.
Gina (09:44)
that he was gonna be playing a bad guy in the ring, AKA a heel, he wanted to be the fucking best heel on earth, which meant being someone that everyone hated. So Fritz's character was a Nazi.
Kathryn (10:00)
right off the bat, okay.
Gina (10:01)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And that sounds fucking horrifying and horrible, and it was, but that was kind of the whole point of it. The whole purpose of being a heel in wrestling is to make the crowd despise you so much that they cheer for your opponent even louder. And then they use that to help, like, craft narratives, tell stories about the wrestlers. It's literally just a soap opera, but they oil up before they get in front of the camera. That's really the only difference. And Fritz.
Kathryn (10:09)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (10:31)
was really fucking good at it. People loved to hate him almost as much as they loved his signature move, and this might ring a bell, the iron claw.
Kathryn (10:42)
⁓ yeah, okay, I know about that.
Gina (10:44)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Yep. So if that sounds familiar, it's because a movie called The Iron Claw came out in 2023 about this family. We will talk more on that later. But The Iron Claw itself is actually a wrestling move. And it's this thing that Fritz used to do where he would grip your face by your temples. He had these huge hands. And he would basically squeeze, cutting off your circulation until you either tapped out or you passed out. It was intense.
Kathryn (10:47)
Yeah, okay.
Okay.
Ooh.
Gina (11:13)
And as much of an asshole as he was in the ring, he wasn't exactly a peach outside of the ring either. He wasn't like Nazi level bad, but he did have a reputation for being the toughest man in Texas, which in Texas, it's kind of saying a lot. He was like old school bootstraps rub some dirt in it kind of guy. And that became the legacy that he passed on to his sons.
Kathryn (11:30)
Yeah.
Intro to the Von Erich family
Gina (11:41)
So let's talk about the family a little bit. The same year that Fritz debuted as a wrestler, he married his high school sweetheart. Aw, her name was Doris. And together they had six sons. No daughters, just sons. I know. I know. In order of birth, and I will, like, it's a lot of names, but I'll try and like kind of clarify who I'm talking about as I go.
Kathryn (11:58)
I'm trying to be respectful to men right now, but ugh.
Gina (12:10)
The firstborn was Jack Jr. He was named after his dad. And then there was Kevin and David. Later, they would also have Kerry, Mike, and Chris. But at this point in the story, it's only Jack Jr., Kevin, and David so far.
So the first death in the family came pretty early on. It was 1959. And like I said, so far they only had these three boys and the oldest one was Jack Jr. They were living in a trailer because they had to travel a lot to fit around Fritz's wrestling schedule. So at this point they were in New York. And one day when he was six years old, Jack Jr. was walking home from school through the trailer park.
when he accidentally brushed up against the tongue of a trailer, which I had to look up what that is. It's the thing that like connects to the hitch thing. And for some reason it had an electric current going through it. We think there was like an exposed wire somewhere.
Yeah. So Jack Jr. This next part's really fucking sad. He got electrocuted and he fell face first into a puddle of melted snow, drowning him on land.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Fucking tragic. And the family was never the same.
Kathryn (13:34)
Ugh.
That happens like,
yeah, that, sorry, continue. I'm like, no, I just, that's something that happens not often, but like, you don't think that could possibly happen, but there's quite a few stories where that happens. Yeah, yeah.
Gina (13:41)
No, no, keep going.
More often than you'd think. I think I read one time that
there only needs to be like two inches of water to drown in it, maybe less.
Kathryn (13:58)
yeah,
I think it's like an inch because it just I mean, honestly, I don't mean this to be funny, but it kind of depends on how big your nose is because like as long as your mouth and nose are both submerged, it's like an inch. Yeah.
Gina (14:05)
That's true.
God. Yeah. So yeah, the family, I mean, this is incomprehensibly awful for a family to go through. And according to Kevin, the second oldest son after Jack Jr, Fritz was particularly affected by this. Kevin said, quote, he wanted to make everyone suffer like him, which is a sentiment that I think echoes through this whole story.
But instead of stepping back to grieve, Fritz threw himself into his work. He kept wrestling, he kept traveling, and he wound up climbing the ranks of the National Wrestling Alliance, or the NWA, first as a wrestler and then as a promoter. Real quick pause for context. A wrestling promotion is basically just the organization that puts on a wrestling show. WWE is the most well-known wrestling promotion, but there are tons of them and there were even more
back then. And a promoter is the person who makes it all kind of come together. They help organize the events, they sell the storylines, sometimes they book the matches, all of that. So Fritz being a promoter for the NWA was in particular a really big fucking deal because the NWA was literally an alliance of a bunch of promotions coming together. It was like a wrestling cartel and Fritz now had substantial power.
within that. Fun fact, Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins fame now owns the NWA.
Kathryn (15:45)
fun fact he was just here in Milwaukee we missed him for some reason yeah I don't remember why I think he was out somewhere fast or something ⁓ yeah that's interesting I didn't know that
Gina (15:48)
Really? Nice.
But anyway, so Fritz had begun building his empire. Also by this point, he had had three more sons, Kerry, Mike, and Chris, like we mentioned earlier. And now that he had all of this power, he was going to do everything he could to make sure that the five sons he had left became the center of what he was building. Around this time,
Kathryn (16:06)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (16:18)
when Fritz didn't have to travel as much anymore because he wasn't in the ring all the time, the family settled down on a 16-acre ranch in Texas. And this is really where the boys grew up. But the fact that it was kind of a remote location doesn't mean that the boys grew up out of the spotlight. As kids, they had pictures with their dad in magazines. Like, literally when they had a field day at school, it would make the TV as like a news story.
from a very, very young age, they were both known to the wrestling community, but also known to Texas as a whole. Like they were just huge, people loved them. In terms of their upbringing itself, Fritz was very, very involved and he wanted his boys to grow up strong just like him. So much so that he built a weight room in the family's barn and when each of his sons would hit puberty, he would start training them.
The way it's described, it's almost like it was a coming of age thing in the family. Like once you hit this age, you'll get to go to the barn with dad and he'll show you how to lift weights kind of thing. So every day for three hours, the boys would work out with their dad. And that doesn't include things like solo workouts or the time that they spent playing sports at school, because a lot of them did. And their training itself was a little bit unorthodox. Among other things, Fritz would tie the boys together by their feet.
Kathryn (17:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Gina (17:45)
hang them from a beam and then have them fight upside down.
Kathryn (17:49)
Whaaat?
Gina (17:51)
Yeah, just kind of a little bit weird. Yeah. And in fairness, the boys weren't forced to do this. They wanted to because they worshipped their dad. They wanted to be just like him. And to be fair, for a while, it looked like that was going to happen.
Kevin, David, and Kerry: The golden boys of wrestling
Kevin was the first one to go pro.
Kathryn (17:53)
My goodness.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (18:13)
He was an amazingly gifted athlete. He had a dazzling football career in high school and then also at North Texas State University. Also sidebar, when I say football, I'm talking about American football. So everyone else can suck it. We say soccer on this podcast.
Kathryn (18:26)
here.
Yes. It's just confusing otherwise.
Gina (18:36)
It truly is. So anyway, yeah, he was ⁓ a football star and he dreamed of playing for the NFL someday, but before he could get there, he got a really gnarly knee injury. So that wasn't on the table anymore. Instead, when he was around 20 years old, he debuted as a wrestler. His nickname was the Golden Warrior. And another fun fact, he was known for wrestling barefoot.
Kathryn (19:02)
Love being barefoot.
Gina (19:03)
Mm-hmm.
Me too. Yeah. Yeah. So that was Kevin. David, who is the next in the birth order, followed closely behind Kevin. Like his brother, he was also a star athlete in high school. He played basketball and football. And he was tall, lean, really strategic. Like if Kevin brought the raw athleticism, David had the finesse. He was what's called a technical wrestler.
which meant that he focused on things like skill, hold maneuvers, and just actual technique within the ring. So with David, it was less flying through the air and more turning someone into a human pretzel kind of thing. He became known as the Yellow Rose of Texas. And one thing that I love about David is that he had a passion for horses. He really loved horses.
Kathryn (19:56)
We had a horse boy? That's so cute.
Gina (19:58)
He was
a boy. Yeah, he actually had a side hustle raising and selling show horses and like accumulated his own fortune outside of any wrestling stuff. Yeah, so that's David. And then Kerry, the fourth son, was the big breakout star. He was a track and field prodigy in high school. Like he literally broke records on the discus. He was so good. At one point, he was training to be on the 1980 Olympic team, but
Kathryn (20:07)
That's cool.
Gina (20:27)
That was the year the US decided to boycott it because it was being hosted in Moscow. It was like this whole geopolitical thing back then. So when he couldn't do that, he went into wrestling instead. And he was huge. He had the charisma. He had the muscles. He had the looks. Like he, looking at old pictures of him, very much young John Travolta vibes. Really handsome. And his physique was apparently so good that
Kathryn (20:50)
Ooh, nice.
Gina (20:55)
Arnold Schwarzenegger refused to be photographed shirtless with him.
Kathryn (21:00)
What? That's weird.
Gina (21:01)
Yeah!
These boys were built. And also, Kerry was known as the modern day warrior.
Kathryn (21:05)
Yeah.
Gina (21:10)
And I should also say, like, even though they had these nicknames like Yellow Rose of Texas, modern day warrior, whatever, everyone knew them by like Kerry Von Erich David Von Erich. Like their names were not unknown to people. They just had little nicknames too.
Kathryn (21:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
that's pretty common for like, really popular. I'm thinking of Dwayne the Rock Johnson. Like, you know his name is Dwayne Johnson, but right? Yeah.
Gina (21:27)
Yeah, The Rock. Yeah, Ric Flair, Nature Boy.
I wonder what your wrestling nickname would be.
Kathryn (21:35)
I don't know, what would yours be? I know you've thought about Wait, I love that for you. I don't know what my, I've never thought of this before.
Gina (21:38)
Ooh, the ice bitch cometh.
can't decide whether it would be terrifying or misleading and how fun it sounds, but then you come in and kill people.
I don't know either. OK, sorry. can get back to my... I'm done with this fan. Me too. Me too. Same. And so these three boys debuted and all of it happened fast. Like Kevin, David and Kerry all debuted within like a few years. And they quickly became fan favorites and they started drawing huge crowds.
Kathryn (21:59)
Yeah. I will be thinking of this. We'll report back what my name would be. Yeah.
Gina (22:21)
Because they were like these talented, all-American, gorgeous boys from Texas, they're also described as being really humble and shy at points. Like they were just so easy to root for. And when they would use the iron claw, just like their dad, it got just the biggest reaction. The vibes were very, we are seeing legends in the making with this. So some time passes. The boys' popularity grows and grows.
Kathryn (22:33)
Yeah.
David Von Erich
Gina (22:49)
And in early 1984, David was scheduled to go on tour in Japan. He had been sick for about a month or so leading up to this. He had been throwing up. He was looking really pale, just not well. And right before he left on this trip, his brother Kevin recalled sitting at the kitchen table with their mom, and Kevin looked at David and his heart just sank into his stomach. He looked so sick.
Kevin was really worried about him going over there, but Fritz was like a, you made a commitment, you need to stick to it kind of guy. So David went anyway, yeah. And once David got there, he never made it to the ring. While he was gone, before he had even had his first match in Japan, the Von Erichs got a knock on their door at around 2 a.m. It was Fritz's right-hand man. Who was a guy named David Manning.
saying that someone from Japan had called and David had been found dead in his hotel room at 25 years old.
The way that David's body was positioned, it looked like he had been trying to reach the phone, which is really heartbreaking. Yeah, like we don't know if he was going to call the hospital or his family or who, but someone. Yeah. The official cause of death was acute enteritis, which is a severe inflammation of the small intestine. But rumors of something else happening started circulating almost immediately. ⁓
Kathryn (24:01)
Yeah, that sucks.
Yeah, just call for someone, Oof.
Gina (24:21)
A lot of people did and still do claim that David died of a drug overdose. This story goes that the guy who found his body, another wrestler whose name was Bruiser Brody, had cleaned up before the authorities arrived and basically hid all of David's drug shit. It is very important to note there is absolutely no evidence of this. Kevin doesn't believe it, so I don't believe it. But if you Google David Von Erich,
a lot of stuff about this comes up. So I just want to get ahead of anyone finding that and thinking that it's like a bona fide truth. It's not. It's a rumor.
At the end of the day, all that really mattered was that David was gone. The Von Erich family, again, was fucking devastated. And the wrestling world in general was devastated. Like, he was a huge star to die so young. And when his funeral came around, thousands and thousands of people came to pay their respects, to the point where not everyone could fit inside the venue, so they had to put screens and speakers outside for the overflow crowd.
Shortly after that, they had a tribute show called the David Von Erich Memorial Parade of Champions. ⁓ There was a bunch of wrestling that went on there, and it had over 42,000 attendees, which at the time made it the largest crowd ever at a wrestling event in the USA. Kerry had a match that night against Ric Flair, who we fucking hate. I don't have time to get into it, but he sucks. And Kerry...
won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship off of Ric Flair, which was a huge deal. He was the first Von Erich to do this. And there's footage of his family coming to congratulate him after he wins. And you can just feel the emotion in that moment and how much it meant to the family and to the boys that they got to bring the belt home for David. Yeah. But with David gone, things were obviously never truly the same.
Kathryn (26:13)
Yeah.
Mike Von Erich
Gina (26:21)
And from a business perspective, they were now missing one of the golden Von Erich brothers. So Fritz turned to his next son, Mike. We haven't talked very much about Mike yet, but he seemed like a very gentle soul. He loved music, he played guitar, he wanted to work in wrestling, but he wanted to be a cameraman, not actually a star in the ring. But his dad wanted him to wrestle, so he did.
Kevin has said that Mike felt pressured to be David and to be at the same level as his older brothers right away, but he just couldn't quite do it. ⁓ He wasn't on the same level as them with the technique and athleticism, which fucking makes sense because they have years of experience on him at this point, but still Mike felt that he was less than. And about a year after David died, everything started to fall apart all over again.
Kathryn (27:08)
Yeah.
Gina (27:19)
Mike was on a wrestling tour in Israel when he dislocated his shoulder during a match. So he was taken to the hospital for emergency surgery, and then he was flown back to Texas to recover. And then things went even further south immediately. He developed a really, really high fever, like 107 degrees Fahrenheit, yeah, which is, for our European friends, 41.5 degrees Celsius. And one of the things about a fever that high
Kathryn (27:41)
Whoa.
Gina (27:48)
is that you can get brain damage from it. The threshold is literally 107.
Kathryn (27:51)
Yeah.
I was gonna say that's like deadly temperature. Yikes.
Gina (27:55)
Yeah, it's really
dangerous. Kevin literally had to carry him to the car to take him to the hospital, like he couldn't even walk. And when they got there, they discovered that Mike had developed toxic shock syndrome due to a staph infection after the surgery.
Kathryn (28:02)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (28:12)
Somehow, by some fucking miracle, Mike survived. The doctors thought that he wouldn't for a while. The family was ready to say their goodbyes. And all of a sudden, he just kind of recovered and pulled through. Actually, let me correct that because he pulled through. He didn't ever really recover. He lost a ton of weight during this period. He started acting super erratic. He attacked a stoplight. He smashed up
parked car, just like all of these aggressive acts of violence that were never really like him to do, and also potentially evidence that brain damage had in fact occurred. About a year after that, Mike got into a car accident where he suffered even more head injuries when his car flipped over.
Kathryn (28:52)
Yeah.
But he survived.
Gina (29:02)
Yeah, he survived.
Despite this, all of this horrible bullshit that's happening to him, he tried to continue wrestling, but he just, like it feels shitty to say, but his performance in the ring just really wasn't great, which is understandable. ⁓ His personal life wasn't going well either. He got arrested for a DUI and suspicion of possession. I think it was of weed. His lawyer wound up getting him out of jail.
Kathryn (29:20)
Yeah.
Gina (29:32)
And that was the last time anyone saw him alive. The family first realized that something was wrong when Mike missed a family event. So they started searching for him. And by the time they found him, which took days, it was too late. He had overdosed on tranquilizers and alcohol by Lewisville Lake and died at the age of 23 years old.
Kathryn (29:55)
Wait, I was not considering the age of this person at all. I'm imagining like, why was I imagining like a 45 year old? my God.
Gina (29:56)
Ahem.
So young.
So, so young. Mm-hmm.
So around this time, the Von Erichs popularity started to drop a little It had been about a decade since the first brother, Kevin, had made his debut. And the crowds were just starting to get a little bit tired of them. ⁓ There's some speculation that it was like a branding and image issue, like we talked about earlier.
Because on the one hand you have these god-fearing all-american boys and on the other hand there's news about DUIs and drug use and arrests and suicide and that kind of thing. Which put the family in a tough place emotionally as if they didn't already have enough to fucking deal with. Now their careers, the one thing that their lives as a family, as a unit are centered around is starting to look a little shaky. Which extra sucks because
Kathryn (30:40)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Von Erich
Gina (30:57)
Around this time, the youngest brother, Chris, made his debut. Chris was the baby of the family. He was the youngest brother, and he was known as the funny one. He was described as just being full of life, just a sweetheart. Like, if you look at pictures of him, he just looks like he would know how to crack a really good joke. Like, you know when you can just tell that someone has a good sense of humor? That's what he looks like, yeah. But he also had asthma.
Kathryn (31:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.
Gina (31:26)
and was on medication that gave him very brittle bones that were prone to breaking, which, when you're a wrestler, makes your job exponentially harder. Like we talked about earlier, everything that happens in that ring is real. It fucks you up. And if your body is working against you and you're new to the business, you're in for a really hard fucking time.
Kathryn (31:31)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Gina (31:50)
Yeah, but Chris loved wrestling. He had spent years working and working and trying to succeed, so much so that if he got injured, too bad, he would wrestle anyway, even if the doctors told him not to, until at one point, he broke his arm so badly that he just couldn't work through it, couldn't work out with it. And this compounded with the fact that he hadn't been progressing much professionally
compounded with the grief over his brothers, sent him into a really nasty depression spiral.
Kathryn (32:25)
Wait, before you maybe you're going to say this, but what was his wrestling name?
Gina (32:31)
Gosh, I don't think I wrote that one down. What was Chris?
Kathryn (32:35)
I'm like clocking
all these guys just to see if I recognize any of them.
Gina (32:41)
know if he had one.
Kathryn (32:42)
Hmm, okay.
Gina (32:44)
Let me see. Hold on, this is going to bug me now.
Yeah, I don't think he had a nickname.
Kathryn (32:50)
weird to me. I thought that was like a rule. Are you allowed to not have a wristling name?
Gina (32:56)
Hmm. I mean, I don't want to give anything away, but he winds up wrestling for less, actually just over a year. So maybe it wasn't long enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I should say he wrestled for longer than that, but he was like physically in the ring professionally wrestling for just over a year. Yeah. So he's going through a hard time and his brother, Kevin, tells a story about how Chris called Kevin in the middle of the night.
Kathryn (33:04)
⁓ okay, nevermind. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. All right, I was just curious.
Yeah, yeah. Okay, please continue. All right.
Gina (33:26)
one time and Chris was saying like, hey man, I loaned you my VCR player. I want it back, give it back. VCR was kind of a product at the time, but still it was just like really random, kind of out of the blue. So Kevin was like, dude, wait until morning, please. This is so fucking weird. But Kevin could also tell that something just was not right when Chris was talking to him. So he wound up leaving the house and going to look for Chris and he found him at the top of a nearby hill.
Kathryn (33:43)
Yeah.
Gina (33:56)
that Chris really liked spending time at. It was like one of his places. And Kevin, when he got up there, asked Chris, you know, what you doing? How's it going? And Chris said, did you read my note?
Kathryn (34:06)
Yeah.
Gina (34:12)
And Kevin, reading between the lines here was like, my fucking God, please don't kill yourself. Whatever you're thinking of doing, don't do it. Like it'll be okay, blah, blah. Promise you won't. And Chris said, it's okay, it's all right. I won't do it, I promise. So Kevin goes back to the house and tells his dad about the situation. Like, hey, something is up with Chris, I'm worried. And Fritz says, you better get back to Chris right now. So Kevin raced back to the hill.
and it was already too late. At the age of just 21 years old, Chris had shot himself in the head and a toxicology report revealed cocaine and Valium in his system.
Kathryn (34:55)
Yikes.
Gina (34:56)
Yeah. Yeah. So let's do a quick timeline recap because there's a lot going on. By this point, it's been seven years since David died. So within seven years, three sons are dead, two of them by suicide, and the only ones left are Kevin and Kerry.
Kathryn (35:06)
Okay.
Kerry Von Erich
Gina (35:13)
Kerry, like I said before, he was by far the most famous of the brothers and he was kind of the de facto face of the family at this point. Like no one was higher up than Fritz in the hierarchy, but Kerry was the big star. But he also had a very big secret. Before Mike and Chris had died,
Kathryn (35:13)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (35:34)
Kerry was in a really nasty motorcycle accident. He had crashed into a parked police car and this really fucked up his ankle.
The doctors did everything they could to save it. And for a while, it looked like it would be OK. But Kerry walked on it a little bit too soon. And the damage from that meant it had to be amputated.
Kathryn (35:53)
Mm.
I was not expecting you to say that. Yikes. ⁓ okay.
Gina (36:02)
It gets worse because
Fritz, his loving father, didn't want Kerry to look weak. So they hid the fact that his foot had been amputated and Kerry kept wrestling.
Kathryn (36:15)
That's not the vibe. I don't like that.
Gina (36:17)
That's
not the vibe. And I do want to just quickly touch on this because I know it sounds fucking weird. Like, how can you wrestle without a foot and have no one notice? That's just insane. But most wrestlers wear those really high boots, like mid-calf or up to their knees sometimes. So it was actually kind of easy to just stick a prosthetic in the bottom of one and then just go about like everything was normal. Like when you watch videos of Kerry wrestling from this time period, you cannot fucking tell.
Kathryn (36:31)
yeah.
Gina (36:44)
at all. That guy was so good at what he did. He was amazing. And so this became like a really massive family secret. They weren't allowed to tell anybody. And this period of secrecy lasted for years, I think five years total. They even had Kerry doing interviews saying, yeah, I almost had to have my leg amputated, but I'm strong and I'm back and I'm OK. Like just heartbreaking. Yeah.
Kathryn (37:13)
I'm
sorry, this is just like not computing. The concept of...
like being weak because you needed your foot amputated like
First of all, that's not a measure of like strength or weakness at all. But if it was going to be, I feel like you would want people to know because I feel like that's more impressive to be a good wrestler without a foot. I don't know. Like, again, it's not a measure of strength at all, but like lying about that seems just bizarre to me. I can't, I'm like struggling. I'm struggling to compute that logic.
Gina (37:45)
I agree.
It's the reason why we can't understand it. It's because it's the logic of a guy who was born in like the 30s. Like, you know what I mean? In Texas, yeah.
Kathryn (37:57)
Yeah, in Texas. Very like, yeah.
just, yeah. Anyway, continue. I just had to land there for a second, because what the hell?
Gina (38:01)
Mm-hmm.
Well, and like, it's
good to bring it up because it had, like having to keep the secret had a huge impact on Kerry because in his mind, he's like, yeah, he's telling himself like, I'm lying, I'm fake, I'm weak. And he wasn't weak, but being forced to hide it, like you get why his brain was telling him those lies because the actions that everyone else was taking told him that he was weak because he wasn't allowed to talk about it. So it just, ugh.
Kathryn (38:12)
I imagine.
Yeah.
⁓ absolutely.
And like that validation of, he's
so good, you know, that can be of as, I'm good because I'm keeping the secret, you know, not because I'm just good at what I do, you know, which still doesn't make sense. But I get that mental comparison, like that connection or whatever. That sucks. Yeah.
Gina (38:41)
Yes, yeah.
Exactly, yeah.
Yeah, it just sounds dark. Like that's a dark place to be in in your mind.
Kathryn (38:55)
Yeah, it's almost like it's just one of those things that it seems so obvious when you're outside of it. But when you're in that space, it's like, man, I get that. That sucks.
Gina (39:06)
Yeah,
Now, eventually, Kerry got signed by the WWF, which would eventually become the WWE that we know today. And one thing about the WWF that sucks, just one of the many, is it's a huge corporation, so it's really hierarchical. Wrestlers don't have a whole lot of control over who they are in the ring. Supposedly, it's a little bit better now, but that's also like
a whole other thing that I don't have time to get into. If we ever want a bonus episode on wrestling.
Kathryn (39:37)
We'll talk about that someday. Yeah, we'll do that
someday. I'm not emotionally prepared for that right now.
Gina (39:43)
No, no, I don't think we can do that today. So when
he started wrestling for the WWF, Kerry was rebranded as the Texas Tornado and he was not allowed to use the iron claw.
Kathryn (39:55)
⁓ The more you speak, I'm like starting to, I think I've heard of this nickname and the more you talk about it, I feel like I know about the iron claw. I feel like Phil's talked about that before.
Gina (40:05)
It's one of, like this family, it's one of those things where it's so in, like embedded within culture that like you don't realize you know of it until you hear the story and you're like, shit, that's where that comes from.
Kathryn (40:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, because when you first mentioned the movie, thought that was the reason I thought of it. But the more you talk about it, I know Phil will sometimes talk about wrestling moves. And I'm pretty sure he's done. He's not done the iron claw to me, but like a version of not like he hasn't like tried to like suffocate my brain, but like, you know, we'll be messing around and he'll be like, iron claw and I'll be like, I don't know any of these like. Yeah. So I'm pretty sure that there's another one he does a lot. What's like a famous move? I don't know.
Gina (40:27)
Is he done the iron claw on you?
I love that. ⁓
there's a lot of them. Well, it's tricky too because like, wait, sorry.
Kathryn (40:45)
Are you?
No, I just mentioned hating Ric Flair. I think Ric Flair is the one that feels like... Do we hate him?
Gina (40:53)
He was a great wrestler, amazing showman, shit human being.
Kathryn (40:57)
Okay, think yeah, I think Phil has mentioned that before. I listen I am not in the wrestling world at all. I think they're all pieces of shit. Like, I'm so sorry, like, all because I don't know about this world. So all I ever hear is the news stories about the pieces of shit. So like, I'm not, I'm not excusing any of it. But I'm like, I am going into every wrestling story, assuming they suck. And you guys just like tell me otherwise. So like, yeah, I
Gina (41:09)
Mmm.
Well, there are some
good wrestlers, like some really genuinely good people that we're going to talk about later.
Kathryn (41:27)
I like the rock. I know about him. He seems nice.
Gina (41:30)
The Rock is cool. really like, ⁓ well, he died, but I liked Bray Wyatt a lot. He was neat. There's also this wrestler called ⁓ Mick Foley, Mankind.
Kathryn (41:36)
I don't know him.
⁓ wait, is he the one Phil likes?
Gina (41:41)
Phil, probably probably because that would have been like the heyday when Phil was watching it.
Kathryn (41:45)
I think, sorry, I get a lot of Ric Flair GIFs from Phil, but I think the Foley guy is the one he actually was like a fan of. You know what, I'm just gonna stop talking. I'm gonna let you continue and I'll fact check with Phil and then get back to you. I'm gonna stop talking for him. Okay, please continue.
Gina (41:50)
Foley's great.
Okay, where did I go? Okay,
yes, Kerry's in the WWF, ⁓ rebranded as the Texas tornado, So his identity just kind of started slipping away from him, which again, sucks because he was a huge fucking deal. Like the fact that he was Kerry Von Erich was one of the biggest things he had going for him. So by dismantling his brand, they also took away a big piece of who he was.
Kathryn (42:19)
Yeah.
Gina (42:30)
Like he did have some success in the WWF. Like he became Intercontinental Champion at one point, but he lost that title a few months later. He slowly stopped getting as many televised matches. His career was just really starting to slow down. He wound up ⁓ developing a drug addiction, which led to issues with the law, which led to issues in his marriage because he was married by this point.
Kathryn (42:30)
Yeah.
Gina (42:59)
And his WWF career just ended up treading water and he wound up being released, which is just a fancy way of saying fired, within just a few years of his debut at the company. So by this point, yeah, Kerry's just in like a horrifically dark place. He's lost four of his brothers, three of them recently. His career is spiraling. He's still carrying the shame of that amputation. So he wound up
Kathryn (43:08)
Mm.
Gina (43:28)
telling Kevin that he wanted to kill himself. He was ready to join his brothers. And Kevin was like, no, no, no, don't do that. Let's just get away from here. Let's go to Alaska for a while. Just you and me. We'll figure it out together. No wrestling, no drugs, no dad. We can do this. It just wasn't meant to be. The same day that Kerry was scheduled to be indicted on drug charges, he drove to his dad's ranch where he shot himself in the heart.
and died in his father's arms at the age of 33, leaving Kevin as the only surviving Von Erich child.
It's so fucking sad, Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn (44:09)
Ew, I hate that.
Gina (44:10)
Yeah,
it's so tragic. But okay, that's the end of the deaths. So we can draw a line there. We're done.
Kathryn (44:17)
Thank goodness. Okay, I was literally just
gonna say, can we pause for a second? wasn't expecting, like, I know this is a cursed episode. The episode's not cursed. Don't be scared, anyone. This is an episode about curses. But I still was just not expecting, I don't know. Anyway, just continue, I'm sorry. My brain's, like, struggling with this.
Gina (44:37)
It's, no, it's okay. It's genuine.
It's almost unbelievable, this story. Like, we'll talk a little bit more about it later, but yes, yeah.
Kathryn (44:43)
It just feels so rapid. Yeah, it's just even
though I know there are like a little there was a little bit of time in between some of them, but it's just like, that's a lot. And well, yeah, keep going because I have a lot of thoughts but I want to hear everything from you first. Okay.
Kevin Von Erich
Gina (44:54)
It is. Yeah. Okay.
So within a few years of Kerry's death, Kevin wound up retiring from wrestling, which like, who could blame him? And I love this part. He moved to Hawaii where he and his wife raised four kids.
Kathryn (45:07)
Right.
and he lived.
Gina (45:16)
He lived. He's still alive.
Kathryn (45:18)
Ugh, okay. Okay.
Gina (45:19)
And a lot of the information that I have talked about today actually comes from an interview that he did within the last couple of years. It was on a show called The Dark Side of the Ring, which if Phil hasn't watched Dark Side of the Ring, okay, yes, it's a great show.
Kathryn (45:27)
⁓ okay.
I've heard of that. I think he must have, or at least he's mentioned it, or I've seen it on his list or something, because I recognize that and I would only recognize it from him, because that would not be on my radar, yeah.
Gina (45:42)
I mean, it is really good.
Yeah, and especially the Von Erich episode, it's just so well done. I think it's season one, episode four. Highly recommend to anyone who's interested in seeing Kevin and watching footage of what happened in the matches and stuff. Yeah.
Kathryn (45:47)
Okay.
Yeah, I'm curious now.
Huh, interesting, okay. So he's like talking about this and this is like, he's, yeah, okay, that's interesting.
Gina (46:01)
Yes. Yeah,
You can tell that it's, I mean, fucking hard for him to talk about. There's one point where I want to say it's after he talks about Chris's death. I might be wrong on that. But it's one of the deaths. He's telling the story of it. And then at the end, he just kind of like gives the cameraman a look and says, can I please have another break for just about 10 minutes? And just the way he says it is like, just want to give you a
Kathryn (46:08)
Mm-hmm.
⁓
Gina (46:28)
The biggest hug, my God.
Kathryn (46:30)
give me chills. Wait, that's so sad. that's what I guess that's I think what gives me chills like because when you just said politeness, I can be chills again, because I always get so sad when you're watching those interview shows and someone has died and it makes me very sad when people start getting teary and they're like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, because I'm like, don't apologize. It's very sad. Like just fucking cry. But it's almost like
Gina (46:33)
Yeah, and it's like the politeness with which he asked it, like...
I'll be sorry.
Kathryn (46:58)
The fact that that's not what he said, he just like, and I don't know if he apologized or not, but it's the addition of like, may I please have a break instead of just trying to push through. feel like people always, at least it appears in the editing that people just try to push through and like suck down the sadness and keep going. It's like, my God, to ask for a break. Like, it's heartbreaking.
Gina (47:07)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And the way that he said, I think it was he said, can I have another break? So he had had like multiple. And so it was just like, God. Yeah, you can just, you can see it, hurts. But on kind of the lighter side of things in that show, they have bits where they show where Kevin lived in Hawaii. And it just seems like the most peaceful, happy place, like just a calm green space.
Kathryn (47:25)
Good point. That's sad.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (47:49)
where you can just tell that it was really restorative and just a safe place to exist, which is nice.
The Iron Claw movie
In 2023, Kevin left Hawaii to move back to Texas, which is the same year that the movie The Iron Claw came out, which chronicles the Von Erich story. Most notably, it features Zac Efron as Kevin and Jeremy Allen White as Kerry, along with a host of other amazing actors.
Kathryn (48:06)
Okay. Yeah.
⁓
this is what he had the hair for? Gotcha. Okay. Yes, I know what movie you're talking about now. I knew that I knew the name, but I didn't. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Okay.
Gina (48:19)
Yes. Yes it is. ⁓
Okay,
I'm kind of glad that you haven't seen the movie, because I'm going to give you a disclaimer about it in case you ever do want to watch it. So the movie does not include Chris's story in the equation. Chris is left out, ⁓ which pissed me off a little bit at first, but then I was reading about why, and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier with this story being so much pain that it's almost unbelievable. The director, ⁓ Sean Durkin, said, I have a quote from him. He said,
Kathryn (48:33)
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.
Gina (48:57)
It was one more tragedy that the film couldn't really withstand. Which I get because like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get it. But it also breaks my heart because one of Chris's, a big piece of his story is that he was always in the shadow of his older brothers. And so it sucks that even now, like a movie is made about them and he's not in it.
Kathryn (49:02)
I think people would hate it. Yeah, audiences have a threshold. I get that. Yeah.
Yeah. ⁓
⁓
Like even in the fictionalized version of their story, he is still in the shadows. ⁓ yeah, I don't like that. That's a bummer.
The Von Erich family in AEW
Gina (49:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, so that's a little, yeah. But it's OK. I'm going to take us on a happier note now. ⁓ And the happy thing is that there are still Von Erichs who wrestle to this day. They are Kevin's sons, Ross and Marshall. And they're a tag team that wrestles for a company called AEW and its sister promotion, Ring of Honor. And Marshall wrestles barefoot just like his dad. Yeah.
Kathryn (49:35)
Okay.
Gina (49:56)
Kerry’s daughter, because he had a daughter at one point, also wrestled for a while. So fuck yeah, women wrestlers. Her name ⁓ is Lacey Von Erich, and she worked for a promotion called TNA, but she retired in 2010. But Marshall and Ross still wrestle. And just a few weeks ago, Kevin himself made an appearance at an AEW show. So his sons, Marshall and Ross, came out to do a match as part of a wider team called the Sons of Texas.
and Kevin walked to the ring with them. He was ringside the whole time. And at one point, he joined them in the ring and he did the fabled iron claw. Yeah. Yeah. I watched it in preparation for this episode or whatever. And just to be honest, it made me cry a little bit when I saw it. After everything that happened to that family, the purity of their love for wrestling survived.
Kathryn (50:42)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (50:55)
And that makes me happy.
Kathryn (50:55)
Yeah.
That's a nice way to think of it. Because like that could, well, I don't mean like, I just mean like that could easily have not been the case. You know what I mean?
Gina (51:01)
Bye!
Kathryn (51:07)
This could have been traumatic as far as their relationship to wrestling.
Gina (51:07)
Yeah, agreed.
Yeah, and it's nice that, I mean, I would be shocked if, you know, there wasn't some impact, but it's nice that it's still there and it's like a thing that he shares with his sons and he's okay still being in the ring and shit like that. just, it brings like some level of comfort to what is otherwise the saddest story on earth. So that is pretty much the end of my story.
Was the Von Erich family actually cursed?
But before I stop talking, we got to talk about the curse aspect of this. Was the Von Erich family actually cursed?
Kathryn (51:17)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (51:40)
There is a rumor that way back in the day when Fritz was wrestling as a Nazi character, he was cursed by the ghost of a Holocaust survivor who had lost their sons in a concentration camp.
which, and I'm gonna get on my soapbox a little bit here and please excuse my height. ⁓ It's an interesting paranormal theory, but ultimately Kevin doesn't think that's what happened here and I agree with him. I don't think it was a curse, I think it was culture. Like these boys were put into a box where the only acceptable outcome was to suffer in silence. And I think the real curse is the idea that stoicism and strength are the same thing and that getting help means that you failed.
Kathryn (51:56)
Interesting.
Yeah.
Gina (52:25)
It's actually, it's kind of on point that we're talking about this now, because we mentioned it in the recording we did last week. ⁓ But if you are a guy listening to this or just anyone listening to this, those things are not true. It is OK to feel. It's OK to need help. Help is available to you. We're going to put some resources in the show notes if you need them. Please, please, please use them. And that's all I got.
Kathryn (52:25)
Mm-hmm.
We done.
Yeah, so that's, well, that's part, that's a piece of what I was gonna say before. So I wanted you to finish, because I had faith that you were going to get here. But I think that this is just one of those, can turn this into a woo woo situation in the way that like issues with mental health and substance abuse can feel like a curse.
it's like, okay, that is a curse in and of itself.
Gina (53:20)
Totally agree. Yeah, so kind of a dark start to Curse Month, but also a very realistic one because it's real. Also, this is random, but I just went out of split screen because I don't need my script anymore and my candle behind me went out at some point and I don't know why. Because there's like plenty of wick and wax in there.
Kathryn (53:24)
That's okay. Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah,
that's not burnt down very far at all. Ooh, spooky.
Gina (53:46)
So maybe
someone came to say hello. Maybe someone was like, it is a fucking curse. Shut your mouth. But yeah, that's my story. That's my story for the week.
Kathryn (53:50)
Yeah, they were like, now you're cursed. Just kidding.
Wow. Well,
thank you for that story. That was a very dark start. I mean, it's curse month, so there's really no reality where it's going to not be super dark, but that's okay. We'll all get through it together. fascinating. I don't know anything about wrestling or wrestling families or anything, so that was all new to me.
Gina (54:04)
Yeah.
Kathryn (54:16)
yes, I can kind of lighten the mood. Let's see here. Where's why is my mouse not working? We're just cursing everything all over the place here. Ze curse. Okay. So
Gina (54:16)
anything fun and exciting to share?
The curse!
Listener story: Speaking in tongues
Kathryn (54:31)
So actually, this is a very exciting one. We got another story from friend of the pod Brooke, who just gave birth to her first child. So congratulations to Brooke. She had the baby. Yes, just like the other day I saw. Yeah. Congratulations to Brooke and family. So.
Gina (54:38)
Woohoo!
she did? Oh my gosh, yay! Congratulations!
Kathryn (54:53)
I don't want to dedicate this episode to you because it's very dark and sad, so this episode is not dedicated to you at all. It has nothing to do with you. But we are dedicating just love and light to you and your family. That has nothing to do with curses. Blessing. Wow, why could I not think of that? Yes, blessings all around.
Gina (54:58)
Ha ha ha ha!
Yes. Whatever the, oh, opposite of a curse, blessing.
you
Kathryn (55:17)
Okay, so I'm just gonna read... I read it, but it's been a while since I read it. She sent this a couple weeks ago, so bear with me. Okay, it says, I know this one isn't on theme this month. That's okay because it's a new theme anyway, and it is actually... well, it's not on theme, but it's kind of close. I've been hearing on other podcasts recently about speaking in tongues and how weird it is. Let me tell you, it's weird.
I've never done it, but I have experienced others doing it. Growing up Catholic, our youth group would go to many different conferences and talks and things like that. When I was in high school, one of my favorites to go to was called Stoppinville of the Rockies. I hope I'm saying that right. I don't know if I am or not Stoppinville. Anyway, in between my junior and senior year of high school, we attended the conference and I was excited to meet new people and have a good time.
Almost every evening of the conference, the whole conference attends adoration. If you don't know what adoration is, it's a time spent in prayer or worship where the blessed sacrament is exposed in a monstrance. I always loved adoration. You know what, I'm gonna go, I don't remember what a monstrance is. Yeah.
Gina (56:34)
What the fuck is a monstrance I was just gonna be like, for sure, I know what that means.
Kathryn (56:40)
⁓ it's the, okay. It's like that thing, we'll pop a picture in if you're watching on YouTube, but it's like that thing that looks like a wand that priests hold up. Kind of, yeah. It's, the definition is it's a sacred vessel used to display the consecrated Eucharist. So it's like... Okay, let me speak non-Catholic for a second.
Gina (56:52)
Like the scepter thingy?
You
Kathryn (57:09)
The Eucharist is the bread, the little disc thing that you eat, the body of Christ, okay? And there is like a special dish that you put that in in order to bless it. And it's like very ornate and it does look like a, what did you call it? Like a scepter thing. It's just like gaudy gilded shit. All right, that's what, it's very Catholic. Yeah, it's just a Catholic thing, okay? So.
Gina (57:13)
Mm-hmm.
Very Catholic.
Okay.
Kathryn (57:38)
Anyway,
Okay, sacrament exposed in a monstrance. I always loved Adoration because it was so quiet and peaceful. That was not the case the second night of the conference. Being in a large room with a lot of people, there tends to be noise, but what you don't expect is a teenage girl to scream gibberish and run out of the room. It was a short encounter but confused everyone until another girl started pacing up and down one of the aisles talking nonsense very loudly.
Some of the adults and security tried to get her to go back to her seat, but she just got combative. It took three adult men to carry her out of the room while she continued to yell complete nonsense. I will never fully understand Latin, but I know for a fact that she was speaking some Latin, but not all of it was Latin.
Gina (58:24)
Ooh!
Kathryn (58:34)
Things finally felt like they calmed down, but only for like 20 minutes. A third girl then started running around through the aisles speaking in tongues. She didn't do it for long, but when security started after her, she jumped into a random person's lap and was sobbing into their shoulder.
it took a while for most people to process what had happened and the adult leaders had to explain it to us after adoration was over.
It was the strangest thing to watch happen and not understand. I don't think I will ever understand what comes over a person and makes them do stuff like this and part of me hopes I never will. Keep up the amazing work, Brooke.
Gina (59:13)
Well, that's a
good fucking story, Brooke. You came through again.
Kathryn (59:17)
Yeah,
truly, I'm like, I just very excited to hear more. I've never experienced ⁓ speaking tongues ever. I never went to any like conferences or had any my youth group experience wasn't like that. But I do know people who have experienced that. ⁓ I know one person who
claims to have spoken in tongues, but it's not that I don't believe people speak in tongues. It's just that specific person lied a lot. So I don't believe that she did. other than that, it's just wild to me. I've never seen it in person. I've seen videos of it. And I'm like, man, it freaks me out. Because I'm like, what are we doing? What is this? What is happening right now? Have you ever seen it? It's, yeah.
Gina (1:00:08)
I've never seen a video of someone speaking. No, I've never seen it. But whenever I
hear about it, always... And if someone's watching the YouTube video, though they might have noticed this, I started to giggle a little bit during one of them when you were saying it. It's because I always picture speaking in tongues as singing supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
Kathryn (1:00:18)
Yeah.
That's kind of what it feels like. but there it's like, but they also I think part of the reason it's so scary to see is there. It's not just someone speaking. It's like they're all like, they're often like, get like twisted, or they'll start sobbing or like, it's almost, it's not meant to be demonic. It's supposed to be like, angels or someone is speaking like sharing God's word through you or something like that. But it looks
Gina (1:00:40)
Ugh.
Kathryn (1:00:53)
It's very scary in my opinion. I don't ever want it to happen to me.
Gina (1:00:57)
man,
Why are you making us say weird shit like that,
Kathryn (1:01:00)
Listen, if God wanted to speak through me, I just hope that he chooses a language that I fucking know. Like, why are we still speaking in Latin? Aren't you supposed to be admonition? Like, speak to me in the... Yeah. Like, how am I supposed to know what you're saying? Yeah. It's rude, honestly.
Gina (1:01:06)
God, right. Can you imagine? Like you're reaching to the masses.
And then how am I supposed
to convince people that the things that I just want and I'm saying are God talking? I can't speak Latin.
Kathryn (1:01:25)
Yeah, I wish I spoke Latin. I love the concept of a dead language. I don't know why. So did mine. think up until a certain year, if you were, did your mom go to Catholic school or a Christian school at all? Okay.
Gina (1:01:30)
Me too, me too. It's enchanting. My mom took Latin in high school, I think.
think so, but she went to school
in, I think it was either Michigan or Indiana at this point. I don't know why that matters, but.
Kathryn (1:01:47)
Okay. I think the connection you were making is my mom also is from Michigan and my mom did go to Catholic school all the way through and she was, it was like one of the old school kind where she was like taught by very mean nuns. so she definitely took Latin. But I don't know if she I don't know if she remembers any of it. My dad also went to Catholic school but I think he just went great in grade school in middle school. I don't think he did. In fact, I know he did not go to a Catholic high school.
Gina (1:01:52)
Yeah.
yeah.
Mm.
Kathryn (1:02:16)
I don't know if either of them remember any Latin. I'm sure they remember like certain parts of prayers or certain parts of mass because up until a certain year, Catholic mass was said in Latin.
Gina (1:02:26)
I forgot that we went to a Catholic wedding together. I totally forgot about that.
Kathryn (1:02:26)
Well, I shouldn't say they all, I don't know.
Boy, did we. We were sort of on time.
Gina (1:02:38)
You know what? Okay, I maintain that was not our fault because weddings don't start on time.
Kathryn (1:02:42)
weddings are not supposed to start on time. That's the only wedding I've ever been to that actually started on time. I didn't, which makes me feel bad. I feel bad that I didn't feel bad. Also, you know what, actually, that wasn't our fault because remember, we tried to leave on time and it took our Uber like 20 minutes to get to us. And then there was traffic. Yes, because then there was construction. I maintain that was not our fault because we still showed up.
Gina (1:02:59)
Mm-hmm. Forever. The traffic was so bad. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mostly sober.
Kathryn (1:03:10)
on time.
Gina (1:03:14)
Well, it's not our fault we got stuck in a sports bar. What else was there to do?
Kathryn (1:03:17)
I'm remembering a lot about that now Anyway, that was a lovely wedding. I do listen. like, I sometimes crave a Catholic mass. Like they getcha, they hook you and they never let you go.
Gina (1:03:29)
You know something weird? Like a couple of months ago, I was telling Tom that I wouldn't mind going to church, not like regularly, but just for a service. Like, because when I was a kid, we did the contemporary services a lot. So I was really into like the music they would play. And I kind of miss that sometimes, like the energy of it.
Kathryn (1:03:37)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That's how I feel about going to mass. Like the hymns and the kind of repetitive and almost scripted nature of it feels very, how do say, like comforting sometimes. Honestly, you know what it is. It makes me feel close to both of my grandmothers because they were both very devout. like around Christmas time, I get very should go to church. I never do.
Gina (1:03:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (1:04:10)
So it's like deep within my heathen soul. Never let you go. Anyway.
Gina (1:04:10)
It's time.
Kathryn (1:04:20)
So thank you so much for story, Brooke. Tell us more about your Catholic experience. This is like, of all the spooky stuff she's told, I'm like, this is the one I'm latching onto the most. Just, religious stuff is scary, I don't know. ⁓
Gina (1:04:26)
Yes, please. I love learning about Catholicism. I'm surprised every time.
Kathryn (1:04:36)
kind of do too and it's funny the things that because I forgot what like a lot of the terms she used but as I was reading it I was like yeah I just it's been so many years I feel like I'm like relearning everything we'll talk about it sometime but yeah until then we are gonna continue with curses month so join us next week and until then, little spoons keep it cool
Gina (1:05:01)
Keep it creepy.
