Ep. 36: The Pollock Twins
Kathryn (00:10)
Hello, welcome to I Scream You Scream. My name is Kathryn
Gina (00:14)
I'm Gina
Kathryn (00:16)
And for the month of June, we've been talking about creepy kids while we eat our favorite childhood ice creams. I did, I did, I'm sorry. I did, I almost said May. ⁓
Gina (00:23)
Did you almost say May? Time isn't real.
Kathryn (00:31)
Anyway, so per the chain letter, we unfortunately curse ourselves with. Since you are listening to this right now, you must either share a link to this episode with a friend or give us a five star rating. Otherwise you will be cursed for life. We do apologize. ⁓
Yeah, but not really. We'd really love if you could leave us a five star review. Sorry about the curse grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Gina (00:51)
You
Hooray! Last episode with cookie dough for me, for now.
Kathryn (00:58)
Great.
Yeah, last episode with my tonight dough that was cookies and cream, but not really, I guess. Oreo Blizzard? I don't know. It's been a cookie ice cream. So good.
Gina (01:13)
Yeah, how is the tonight-o, are you? Is it, do we,
should we rate our ice creams, is it time?
Kathryn (01:19)
Absolutely. Yes, I'm ready.
Do you have a rating for yours? Do you want to go?
Gina (01:25)
I'm gonna give it a 4.5 out of 5
Kathryn (01:30)
that's good.
Gina (01:31)
deduct one, no, deduct half a point for not enough cookie dough. And that's it. You can't go wrong. It's a classic. I love it. What about you?
Kathryn (01:35)
Mm-hmm
I'm hovering between 4 and 4.5, because
I'm getting real technical with this. My Oreos and Vanilla, I didn't crunch up the Oreos as much as I should have, and that made for kind of a weird recording experience. And this one, the technical, is this wasn't technically a childhood favorite. I just bought this because I was mad and it tastes good. So I'm going to say 4.25.
Gina (01:52)
Mmm.
You
rave reviews this has been a great month yeah
Kathryn (02:12)
Still great, still a great review. Yes,
all of my, I keep wanting to say discounts. What's the word I'm looking for? What's deduction? Yes, thank you. Yeah, my clearance ice cream. Yeah, they're all technicalities. Taste-wise, this cookie dough is seven out of five.
Gina (02:22)
Deductions? Hmm.
You
Yeah, like if this was like a local regional ice cream competition, blue ribbons across the board. But this is the Olympics here, we're not fucking around. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, no jokes.
Kathryn (02:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, this is not the amateur league. We take this very seriously. As we do all things. Sorry,
sorry if you can hear me scraping. I am using my Karen insulation bowl. Because that was... really? Why? You're just popping your head? Well, I'm using this because...
Gina (03:00)
I was thinking about that bowl the other day. Just because I think about you a lot, I don't know.
Kathryn (03:10)
I noticed that this ice cream melts very quickly. the last last time we recorded it was like soup by the time we even began talking. Yeah. Yeah, it must just be the way they make it. It's fresh as hell.
Gina (03:14)
Hmm.
Same with my Ben & Jerry's.
⁓ I think we have something to celebrate, my friend.
Kathryn (03:30)
We
do. Happy anniversary to when we decided to start a podcast. Yay. So publicly, episode dropped October 1st. But
Gina (03:36)
Happy anniversary! God.
Kathryn (03:44)
this week on June, I almost said July, June 28th, 2024, Gina and I decided to start a podcast. So happy day of conception.
Gina (03:53)
Mm-hmm.
I can't believe it's already been a year.
Kathryn (04:02)
feel like it's been a year and 47 years.
Gina (04:06)
That's the thing, isn't it? Because on the one hand, the last year has flown by. Like, can't imagine my life without this podcast and without doing it with you. But on the other hand, I feel like I've always been doing this.
Kathryn (04:18)
Yeah, I think it's because we always talk a lot. We just, we're just making people listen to us now as it goes. Oh my god, yeah, sorry guys. It's fine. Anyway, so happy conception to us to celebrate we're wrapping up Creepy Kid Month.
Gina (04:21)
Yeah, it's a podcast for just you and me. ⁓
and cursing them. Yeah.
Yay.
Kathryn (04:40)
And that's it, no other plans for celebration unless we want to announce what we're doing next month.
Gina (04:43)
You
I think we should. I think it's fun. I'm excited about next month. I think it'll be a cool one.
Kathryn (04:52)
I am too. think, yeah, I think people are gonna enjoy the types of stories that we're gonna be bringing. I'm gonna enjoy the types of stories we're bringing, even though I still have not decided on that one I'm doing, but it's okay. I will by the time I do it.
Gina (04:58)
Think so too.
Well, this, yeah, this is how I know
next month is gonna be good, is because you and I have both gone back and forth tons of times on the topics that we're doing, and that happens when we find so many cool things to talk about, so.
Kathryn (05:14)
Mm-hmm.
We might need to do a repeat, but before we do a repeat, I'll tell you all what we're doing. We are doing bars. Stories that have to do with bars. Not bars, like polls, bars, like drinking establishments, just to clarify. Not like music bars. Realizing. It's just, it's just, I'm having one of those moments where bars...
Gina (05:23)
Mm-hmm.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Yes, good point. Yeah.
Kathryn (05:42)
is not sounding like a real word, but it is. yeah. So anyway, yeah, bars is the topic. Per obvious necessity, ice cream flavor is going to be boozy ice cream, which I'm excited for. I was going to say, yeah, we'll see you in August because what the fuck?
Gina (05:45)
It's a weird word. Yeah. Yeah.
Yep. So I'll see you on the other side of next month because mama's blacking out.
Who knows what our topics will be?
Kathryn (06:10)
Yeah,
right? God, I'm gonna have to decide and then I'm gonna have to remember and then I'm gonna have to speak. that's gonna be rough. Wow, tune in next month to see what happens because I don't really even know.
Gina (06:15)
my god. Yeah.
going to be one delicious hot mess, which is probably not a good way to market this podcast.
Kathryn (06:24)
you
Or maybe it is, I don't know.
Gina (06:30)
Maybe
it is. don't know. I guess we'll see.
Kathryn (06:33)
But before we get into boozy ice cream and bar discussion, perhaps you could tell me one more tale about super spooky kids?
Gina (06:42)
I I can tell you one more tale about super spooky kids. And before get going, you and I were talking about something a while back and I kind of want to bring our friends into the conversation too, because it's an interesting one. So I want to hear what your thoughts are on reincarnation.
Kathryn (06:45)
Excellent.
Okay.
Okay. Yes, we've not had this discussion fully. We've talked about this, but...
Gina (07:07)
No, we've texted about it briefly, but we haven't
fully. I want to know where you're at with it.
Kathryn (07:13)
Where am I at with reincarnation? I definitely believe in past lives, I don't know exactly where I stand for myself personally. I suspect that I could potentially possibly have memories from a past life. But I don't know.
Gina (07:29)
Mmm.
Kathryn (07:31)
I don't know for sure, but I definitely believe that people have past lives. This, I mean, this is such a creepy kid cliche that, you know, small kids say weird shit and some people, suspect that people or kids can have memories from past life.
Gina (07:41)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (07:49)
I've known too many small children to not believe that to be true. That's the small summary of that. So 100 % believe. Anyone who says I have a memory for past life, I'm like, love it, great, tell me more, unless you don't want to, regardless, 100 % believe it. So yes, fully on board.
Gina (07:54)
That's fair. That is fair.
Wait,
okay, amazing. We're starting this off very, very well because same, you know this, I 100 % believe in reincarnation. And if I'm wrong, that's fine, but I'm making the choice to spend my life believing that there's something more to death. And if I believed in it before, I extra fucking believe in it having researched today's topic. So today,
Kathryn (08:15)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Okay. ⁓
Gina (08:36)
We're going to be talking about the Pollock twins and get ready because our minds are about to be fucking blown. Before I start blowing minds, quick trigger warning. This episode does contain some talk of car accidents, specifically one that caused the death of children. And I am going to mention suicide. So if you don't want to hear that stuff today, no worries. We'll catch you next week. But otherwise it's time to meet the Pollock family.
The Pollock Family
We've got the parents, John and Florence Pollock. John was born in Bristol. No surprise this story takes place in England. I can't stop, won't stop. Will never be sorry. And he was born in 1920. Interestingly, I could not find a birth year for Florence, so not 100 % sure there. But we can assume she was roughly slash hopefully
Kathryn (09:15)
you
Gina (09:28)
around the same age as John. I'm just, I'm going to choose to believe that again. Yes. Choosing to believe the things I want to believe both. Seriously. Yes. Yes, we are. So both Florence and John had a pretty Christian upbringing. Florence was raised in the Salvation Army. John was raised Catholic, but he wasn't the exact archetype of a Catholic that you might be imagining. He definitely had.
Kathryn (09:31)
Let's say she was. Yes. Yes. We're having a lot of faith in this episode.
Gina (09:56)
kind of a spiritualist edge to his belief system. And from a pretty early age, he did believe in reincarnation to the point where he would pray to God to ask for a sign that reincarnation was real. Like he really, he felt it in his soul that this was something that was real. Regardless, in name and on paper, he was still Catholic. And when he married Florence, sometime in the early to mid 40s, she converted to Catholicism as well.
and John opened up their own milk and grocery delivery business, which I think is so cute. Yeah, lovely. Yeah, little family business that you can get milk and groceries from. I would pay a premium for that. Me too, same. And then using the money from that business, they raised a fairly large family together.
Kathryn (10:27)
Wait, milk and bros? What? That's so cute.
I love that so much.
Gina (10:45)
Now going to say there is a lot of kids going on here. So before I get into the list, know that I am not ignoring anybody here. It's just that most of the research available on the Pollock twins focuses on the twins and two of their older sisters. There were more kids. So just caveat, this is not an exhaustive list. I am so sorry. But anyway, in 1946, Florence and John had a baby girl named Joanna.
And a few years later, they moved to a place called Hexham. And it was here that they welcomed another baby girl into the world named Jacqueline. And Jacqueline was about five years younger than Joanna. At some point, they also had four sons, which is a whole lot of kids, six kids total. And the sons' names are really hard to find. And I don't know if they want their names out there. So for the sake of the story, there were just four other kids.
But the girls in particular were very, very close. At this point in time, Florence and John were really busy with their milk and grocery business. So Florence's mom, the kid's grandma, did a lot of the bringing up portion of childcare. That said, Joanna was also pretty involved in raising her younger sister as well. She loved mothering Jacqueline. She was super protective of her, took care of her.
When I was reading about it, it just seemed like all of the things that people without siblings think that siblings do, that is what Joanna was for Jacqueline. You know what I mean? Yes. As two younger sisters, we can commiserate on this.
Kathryn (12:20)
I hear you. Yes. Yep.
Yeah.
Well, and especially with that age difference, I feel like you said they're five years apart. Yeah, I feel like a five year old is a lot more likely to help take care of a new baby and be excited to take care of a new baby versus like our siblings were still toddlers when we were born, you know, like that's not it's kind like a who cares what's that kind of deal. Yeah.
Gina (12:28)
Mm-hmm. Five years apart, yeah, which is substantial.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, exactly.
Yes, and that's totally the relationship that they had. Like, Joanna was just obsessed with Jacqueline, not in an unhealthy way. They just were super tight.
Kathryn (12:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, just like cute new little baby. Yeah.
Gina (13:00)
Yes,
100%.
The Death of Joanna and Jacqueline
So on May 7th, 1957, 11-year-old Joanna and six-year-old Jacqueline met up with one of their friends to walk to church together. Unfortunately, en route to the church, all three were hit by a car. Joanna and Jacqueline died immediately, and their friend, who was a nine-year-old boy named Tony, died from his injuries shortly after.
It was later discovered that the driver was a 51 year old woman who was very mentally unwell and was under the influence of what she thought were lethal doses of aspirin and phenobarbitone We believe that she was attempting to kill herself in the accident as well. Witness testimony suggests that she did hit the children intentionally. And for all of our sakes, I'm not going to go into more detail on that, but
If you read the details, it's pretty clear. And when investigators tried to establish a motive, they found that the driver had recently lost custody of her own children. And that compounded with the fact that her husband had recently died and her own very longstanding, very serious mental health issues had put her in a extremely deep state of distress, which is not an excuse by any means but.
By way of an explanation, this is kind of what we have. I want to be very clear about that. The driver was held accountable for this, and ultimately she was committed to a psychiatric hospital when doctors discovered just how deeply unwell she was. And this was very big news. Like, there were headlines all over the place about these three young, innocent kids who had died on the way to church. Like, it's just the most tragic thing.
you can possibly imagine. It's so sad.
Kathryn (14:55)
Yeah, and they're so little. That's very young.
Gina (14:57)
So little and like,
And of course, the families of the kids were just devastated. ⁓ Florence tried to just shut it all out as a way of coping. She just tried to avoid thinking about what had happened. But John went to the complete other side of the spectrum. He would later describe this time
by saying that he felt the girls' deaths were a punishment from God because he had asked for proof of reincarnation. Which is like maybe a little bit self-indulgent, but when you're in the throes of grief like that, you look for something to blame. It makes sense.
Kathryn (15:35)
Yeah.
I would, I empathize with that. Yeah.
Gina (15:42)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah. So he did think it was a punishment from God at this point, but he still held out hope that his daughters would be reborn. Within a year of the accident, Florence became pregnant again, and this only solidified John's belief that his daughters were coming back. He became convinced that Florence was carrying twins who would be the reincarnated forms of Joanna and Jacqueline. Florence...
didn't really appreciate this, which I get because my gut reaction was kind of along the same lines. And apparently he talked about it to the point where she almost divorced him over it. Yeah, ultimately the couple did stay together, but it was a serious point of contention.
And also the odds of Florence having twins were stacked against them anyway. Neither Florence or John had any record of twins in their families. And twins do have a genetic component to them. Like I grew up with a few twins, all of them had another set of twins somewhere in their family. And not only that, but Florence's doctor only reported one heartbeat.
Gillian and Jennifer are born
So the likelihood of twins was extremely low from the start. However,
Kathryn (16:42)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (16:59)
on October 4th, 1958, AKA the day after what would eventually be Kathryn's birthday, Florence and John welcomed twin girls into the world and their names were Gillian and Jennifer. So let's do a quick name recap because there's a lot of J sounding names floating around. let's, Joanna and Jacqueline,
Kathryn (17:17)
That's... yeah.
Gina (17:21)
were the ones who passed away, and Gillian and Jennifer were the twins. So in theory, Gillian is the reincarnated Joanna and Jennifer is the reincarnated Jacqueline. So many J's. Well, actually, Gillian is spelled with a G, interestingly, but it's Gillian.
pretty much right away after the twins were born, they noticed some very interesting things about their infant daughters. Specifically, Jennifer, who was the younger twin, had a birthmark on her left hip that looked very similar to a birthmark that Jacqueline had had. Jennifer also had a birthmark
near one of her eyes, which was similar to a scar that Jacqueline had gotten when she was really little and she fell onto a bucket and hit her head. So not wild, definitely a coincidence, but not unheard of. These things happen. Universe is weird. When the twins were around nine months old, they moved to Whitley Bay, which is about 31 miles slash 50 kilometers from where they were in Hexham. Not 100 % sure why they moved, but...
I feel safe assuming part of it was to move away from the place where their daughters had died. I get it. And as the girls started to grow and kind of become cognitively aware enough to interact with the world, Florence and John noticed even more similarities between the twins and Joanna and Jacqueline. despite the fact that by this point, Florence had stepped back from the business a little bit and was taking care of the kids pretty much full time,
Both of the twins seemed oddly drawn to their maternal grandmother, the same one who would basically raise Joanna and Jacqueline. The twins also seemed to enjoy all of the same foods and games that their older sisters had. Which again, like not that weird. Kids tend to like the same foods and games. Kids tend to like their grandparents. Like maybe it's not that weird. Florence just didn't really think much of it. So fast forward a little bit.
By this point, they've had the twins for a while now, like a couple of years, they're maybe around two years old. And Florence still is just not buying into John's whole reincarnation idea. But things kept getting weirder and eventually Florence started to think that John might be right. When the twins were around three, they started to display even more behaviors similar to their older sisters. Reportedly, Gillian, who was the older twin,
was very, very similar to Joanna, the oldest daughter. For one thing, she kind of looked like her. Like they had similar builds. Their personalities were really similar. And also, Gillian took to looking after Jennifer the same way Joanna had looked after Jacqueline, despite the fact that the twins were the same age. So this is where we get into like, there's not an age gap here, and yet one of them is mothering the other constantly when they're like two years old. So.
Kathryn (20:19)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (20:23)
a little bit strange.
By the time the girls were three, going on four, Florence completely lost the ability to call it a coincidence. Now, before I get into it, it's worth noting that throughout all of this weird shit I'm about to tell you, John reportedly did not tell the twins about his reincarnation thing. Apparently, they didn't even learn about it until they were like 13, and at this point, they're three. But that doesn't mean...
Kathryn (20:51)
Yeah.
Gina (20:52)
that Florence and John weren't starting to get a little bit concerned. Like there were just too many coincidences. It was just getting a little bit weird. So they consulted a number of psychologists and psychiatrists, but none of them could really explain what was going on. It just stumped all of them. But the Pollocks knew that there was more to this story. It couldn't just be coincidence. So they started doing a little investigation of their own.
Memories of Past Lives
At one point, Florence and John brought out some toys that used to belong to Joanna and Jacqueline. And without prompting, Gillian immediately claimed a doll that had belonged to Joanna and Jennifer claimed one that belonged to Jacqueline, which lines up with like who they supposedly reincarnated from. But then they both said that the dolls had come from Santa, which was true. They had been Christmas gifts to Joanna and Jacqueline. So that's just bizarre. But...
This part really fucked me. They also seemed to know the names of the toys without Florence or John telling them. And also, this is the other part that really stood out to me. They apparently didn't fight over any of the toys, which is just not a thing. Like, I grew up with a sister who was around my age, and we waged war over each other for toys. That's not normal.
the more that Florence and John investigated, the more convinced they became. For one thing, the twins seemed to remember things that just did not make sense at all. Gillian was able to describe Joanna's bedroom in extreme amounts of detail, despite having never been there or seen it before.
and both twins started talking about memories of a trip to the beach, despite the fact that they had never ever been to the beach before, but Florence and John had taken Joanna and Jacqueline to the beach. So it's like this weird, why are you remembering these things that you should, as a two-year-old, three-year-old, have no reference for? For another thing, Florence overheard the twins talking about the car accident which had killed Joanna and Jacqueline.
Kathryn (22:53)
Yeah.
Gina (23:03)
And like they had not told the girls about this. in theory had no way of knowing about it. So there was one time when the twins were playing a game where they seemed to be kind of reenacting an accident. And Gillian was cradling Jennifer's head and said, the blood is coming out of your eyes. That's where the car hit you. Rewind way back in 1957 when John identified the girls bodies.
He did note that Jacqueline's head had been bandaged just above the eyes. Outside of just this one instance, the twins reenacted or spoke about the accident a few times throughout their childhood, and every single time, they spoke about it using the present tense, as if it was something they were reliving, not something that had already happened. So just weird.
And this wasn't the only evidence that they saw of memories seeming to bleed between the dead and the living. At one point, Gillian pointed to a birthmark on Jennifer's forehead and said, that's the mark Jennifer got when she fell on a bucket. If you'll remember, Jennifer had not ever fallen on a bucket, but Jacqueline had before she had died. And it had left a scar over her right eye in the same area as Jennifer's birthmark.
And yet another creepy turn of events, the twins also seemed to know things about their parents that they just had no fucking reason to know. one example of this is before the twins were born, Florence had often worn a smock when she went to work, just like something she could throw over, like her outfit or whatever. And when Joanna and Jacqueline died and she kind of stepped back from the business a little bit, she just packed it away. At some point after they had the twins,
John pulled it out randomly one day to wear while he was doing some painting. And Jennifer asked him, why are you wearing mummy's coat?
Kathryn (25:03)
Hmm.
Gina (25:04)
It had been packed away that entire time. And yeah, like she might've just seen it in a picture or something, but when John asked Jennifer how she knew that the smock belonged to her mom, Jennifer said that her mom had worn it while delivering milk. Which is true, but like how did she know that? She would have no way of knowing.
Kathryn (25:20)
What?
Weird.
Gina (25:24)
Weird, When the girls were around four years old, the family went back to Hexham to visit. I think it was the first time since the accident and they took the girls with them. ⁓ And the twins started pointing out landmarks that they had never seen before. They knew the location of the school that Joanna and Jennifer had attended by sight. also started talking about a playground.
one of the ones that Joanna and Jennifer used to love playing in. And the twins seemed to know the exact right way to get there. Because the entrance wasn't visible. Yeah, it wasn't visible like when the twins pointed it out, but they knew where the path was and they like described it to their parents. Which is not something little kids know. Like it's just not. So real quick, let's pause and do a vibe check.
Kathryn (26:00)
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
Gina (26:15)
What are your thoughts so far? are you holding up buddy? ⁓
Kathryn (26:20)
all the details in the story, there's a detail and then there's another additional detail to that detail that makes it
Gina (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (26:28)
just strange enough to not be normal. Like, you don't just have a weird birthmark, you have a weird birthmark where your sister didn't have a birthmark, she had a scar. You know what I mean? Like if they were both birthmarks, that'd be a coincidence, in my opinion, or like genetics or whatever, I don't know how that works. But it's not, it's like a step further that makes it like, yeah, that's weird, you know?
Gina (26:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
like the Christmas one. Like, yeah, maybe they grabbed the toys of the person they were supposedly reincarnated from. That could just be coincidence. But then to know who gave them them the gift and to know the names, that's just like weird.
Kathryn (27:03)
Yeah. That's, yes. Yes. That's a great example.
Yeah, because in my head, I was like, okay, maybe the parents set the dolls down and they were just the closest doll to each kid. That's a coincidence. But like you said, like they also have information on it. So that's, yeah, that's a good example of how I'm feeling.
Gina (27:16)
Yeah.
Yes, yeah. OK, excellent,
because it's going to get more intense. So naturally, the public starts to become very interested in what's going on here. I don't know how all of this got leaked to the press, but it did. Some headlines started coming out, and it started attracting some researchers. In fact, one researcher came all the way from India to interview the girls. So this was like a worldwide news kind of thing.
Kathryn (27:32)
Excellent.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I'm sorry, what year is this happening again? I'm sorry.
Gina (27:56)
one specific researcher. sorry. There you go.
So
this would be, they were born in 58. So this would be.
Kathryn (28:06)
You did say, okay, that's what I was imagining, but I couldn't remember. So like
mid-60s, early 60s? Yeah, okay, because there's so little at this point, right? Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, thank you.
Gina (28:13)
Like early 1960s, yeah. Like think like 1963-ish. Yeah, yeah. Still little.
Enter: Dr. Ian Stevenson
Yeah. One specific researcher who got involved was a guy named Dr. Ian Stevenson, who was a psychiatrist slash researcher who interviewed the girls when they were around four to five years old. And he was kind of the leading expert on this sort of thing.
Kathryn (28:34)
Thank
Gina (28:37)
He was the founder of the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia School of Medicine, which is, quote, I pulled this from their website, a research group devoted to the rigorous evaluation of empirical evidence for extraordinary human experiences and capacities. Amazing. And this division still exists today. We'll talk more about it later, but like it's still around.
Kathryn (28:57)
Sweet. Love it.
Gina (29:03)
And one thing that's worth noting about Dr. Stevenson specifically is that he approached cases like this very scientifically. He didn't just believe any old story about reincarnation. ⁓ Like in the paper, this was very sensational, but he took it very seriously. Not in a I don't believe people way, but in a OK, let's look at the evidence. Let's document everything. Let's try and find an explanation.
kind of way. He kind of gives me like Tony Thorne vibes a little bit. He does. He totally does. Just like a leader in a field that I find fascinating and also kind of a silver fox.
Kathryn (29:35)
I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. Yeah.
I love how that's your threshold for Tony Thorne. Like he gives me Tony Thorne vibes because he's researching a topic that I like. And we love him. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah, we love Tony Thorne. What's that episode one?
Gina (29:50)
Yes.
It's 2025 and the bar is in the ground, Kathryn. I'm impressed by everything. But also genuinely, Tony Thorne is amazing and I'm not saying that he's... I love Tony Thorne. Anyway, sorry.
That was literally episode one, I've never forgotten. ⁓ yes, yes, yes. Anyway, back to Dr. Stevenson, other Tony Thorne.
Kathryn (30:11)
Master Thorn. Yeah, love it.
Gina (30:19)
So he did a great job documenting everything, which is a really big reason why this case is so well known today. And in his write-ups, of which there were multiple, he acknowledged that certain aspects of this case were extremely difficult to explain. He specifically discusses the fact that both twins seem to have an irrational fear of cars, with both of them experiencing recurring nightmares about being in a car accident.
Kathryn (30:19)
you
Cool.
Gina (30:49)
He notes one story where the girls were outside when a car started its engine and the twins grabbed onto each other and started screaming that the car was going to come and get them.
Kathryn (31:01)
So sad.
Gina (31:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that's just one example, but he was very, very involved in their case and just in their lives. He would talk to them multiple times throughout the years, both them and the rest of the family. So shortly after this interview with Dr. Stevenson, when the girls were around five or six-ish, all of this weird stuff just kind of stopped, almost like their memories of their past lives were starting to slip away.
Later on, Gillian and Jennifer were interviewed when they were 20. They met with Dr. Stevenson again, and they said they still didn't remember anything about their supposed past lives anymore. And actually, they showed a bit of skepticism towards the whole reincarnation thing in general. They just weren't sure about it, but they did acknowledge that they accept that this is what their parents believe. So they're kind of distancing themselves from it. But a few years after that,
Kathryn (31:56)
Yeah.
Gina (31:58)
Gillian recalled having visions as a child of herself playing in a sandpit at a home. She was able to describe the home perfectly, both the inside and outside of the house, and the description was a picture-perfect match for the house that Joanna had lived in when she was alive and less than four years old. And Gillian had never been to that house before. Just weird shit, Yep.
Kathryn (32:23)
Yeah, there you go.
Theories & Criticisms
Gina (32:25)
So Dr. Stevenson wound up releasing a number of publications about this case over the course of his career, which of course paved the way for tons of theories, criticism, and alternative explanations. So for a lot of people, this was proof of reincarnation, like me, I am one, hello. But as with anything, there was a very solid chunk of people who just were not buying. One of the biggest criticisms of the whole thing
Kathryn (32:46)
You
Gina (32:54)
is that it's really, really reliant on witness testimony and the fact that a lot of the testimony came from the parents, one of whom desperately wanted to believe that his daughters had come back to life. So yeah, even if like Florence and John weren't outright lying, this theory basically says they at least had some unconscious bias when retelling the stories, which could color the accounts that we have now. So do with that what you will.
Kathryn (32:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I can see that. Yeah, that's valid.
Gina (33:26)
Yeah, yeah. And also kind of in that same vein, a lot of people argue that while the parents kind of insisted that they hadn't spoken to Joanna, ⁓ or sorry, they hadn't spoken to Gillian and Jennifer about Joanna and Jacqueline, some information probably did slip through and Jennifer and Gillian just repeated it. And if it wasn't the parents, some think that the twins were probably influenced by their four older brothers, which
To me, this is the one that's probably the most compelling. I don't really have a brother. Well, I don't have a brother, not really. I don't have any brothers. So I can't speak to the experience. But my understanding is they like to fuck with you a little bit. Right, Kathryn? Brother haver Kathryn?
Kathryn (34:00)
I don't really have a brother.
Yes, and I will say that was one of my first thoughts when you kept saying ⁓ the parents would say that they never told them that. It's like, wow, they're not the only two people on earth who speak to these children. Could be brothers, could be neighbors, could be friends, could be grandparents, you know, like, there's a lot of people who are likely talking about these sisters, you know. yeah, I think that's valid.
Gina (34:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yeah.
Yeah, I saw, yeah.
Kathryn (34:41)
And also like that,
like it could have been innocent and genuinely heard things in passing or they could have been like fucked with because at that point the brothers would have been older. Like quite a bit older. Yeah, that's yeah, that makes sense.
Gina (34:50)
Mm-hmm, quite a bit older, yeah.
Yeah, and kind of like what I'm kind of talking around, but I'll address it specifically now, is that it could be something called ⁓ cryptomnesia. I think I'm saying that right. But it's basically the thing where you forget something, remember it, and then you think that that memory is new knowledge. So like a good example of it is with music. Like if there's an artist who, you know what I'm talking about? Like if someone releases a song and they think that they wrote that melody, but it's actually just a song they heard 20 years ago and never fully registered.
Kathryn (35:13)
⁓
Yeah.
I didn't, I mean, I realize there's a name for everything, but I never knew there was a name for that. I'm gonna lose sleep over that one. That's a thing that happens all the time. We are all experiencing that all the time. Yes, all the time.
Gina (35:32)
yeah.
Yeah, that's happened to me multiple times. And when it's applied to the
case of the Pollock twins, it could be that either their brothers told them things or they subconsciously picked up on details about their older sisters without realizing it and then later repeated that information and just thought that it was like new stuff that they had come up with, like genuinely thought that that had been their experience. There's also another theory that comes from a British writer named Ian Wilson. And this is interesting, I don't buy it.
Kathryn (35:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (36:05)
but it is interesting. He argues that it's something called maternal impression. And maternal impression is basically this pretty old belief that when you're pregnant, your thoughts, fears, and experiences can both mentally and physically shape your baby. This theory goes that if Florence was grieving the death of her children while pregnant, which she was, those emotions and memories
Kathryn (36:10)
Mm. Mm.
Gina (36:32)
could have imprinted onto the twins before they were even born. That said, with a capital B, but even the writer, Wilson, admits that this does not cover all the bases, especially the cases where a reincarnated kid was born across the world from whoever they used to be. We will get into that later, because there are a lot of stories about that.
Kathryn (36:36)
interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (36:54)
Anyway, yeah, maternal impression cannot explain this whole thing away. It's cool in theory. I think it's absolutely not true. there are people who say that it was just all a hoax. Like, parents made it up, just told the kids what to say, la la. I still don't believe that one either, because when kids are that little, you can't control what they're gonna say.
the one thing that's always like, but then there's that, is the birthmarks. Birthmarks that bear kind of a creepy similarity to a potential past life show up pretty consistently in cases of reincarnation. It's totally a thing. And in Dr. Stevenson's research, he actually found that 35 % of cases involve either a birthmark or a birth defect.
Kathryn (37:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Gina (37:36)
Which is, that's over a third, that's pretty impressive. Ultimately, despite the criticism, Dr. Stevenson, again, leader in this field, said that the Pollock twins represent some of the strongest evidence we have in support of reincarnation.
Kathryn (37:40)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (37:53)
But there is more information coming to light about this case to this day. Within the last few years, I think it came out in 2025 even, interviewed about their experience in the family, and they described John as kind of a fucking asshole. I have one quote here. He talking about John.
Kathryn (38:00)
⁓
⁓
Gina (38:19)
wanted to be somebody big. He wanted to be important. They go on to describe him as narcissistic, pathological, self-aggrandizing, hateful, and as a gaslighting little man.
Yeah, they said that he was, uh-huh, I know, yeah. So they said that he was intensely manipulative, particularly towards Florence, who they say that he physically abused. And ultimately, they claim that Florence admitted to them that the whole reincarnation thing was a lie.
Kathryn (38:37)
Yikes, I don't know about this.
Hmm.
No!
Gina (38:56)
But Jennifer herself has gone on record disputing all of this. She says that John was a loving, devoted dad, that he wouldn't lie about the whole reincarnation thing, and that also she reminds people that neither she nor Gillian knew about any of this until they were teenagers. So depending on who you believe, this could be similar to a Lawrence situation from the Satanic Panic episode.
Kathryn (39:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gina (39:24)
As in, like, he's just a guy who really wanted to make a name for himself and he, like, didn't care how he got there and manipulated his family into doing it. But whether or not you believe the story of the Pollock twins, the fact is there have been tons of similar cases reported around the world for decades that I think are even harder to explain.
Real quick, do you want to pause on the John stuff? Because it's a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (39:46)
Dude, I do need, I need to pause. I'm sorry, I'm
like floating in space right now. This is like a huge update.
I feel like you just told me that two coworkers are like having an affair or something. I'm like, not okay. I'm like, I've not heard this. This is wild.
Gina (39:57)
It did feel like gossiping when I was telling you about it,
Kathryn (40:03)
Moving on.
Gina (40:03)
so there is,
there is a great Washington Post article about this whole kids being reincarnated. We know kids being the reincarnated versions of other people. don't know how to phrase that. Everyone knows what I'm trying to say. Yes. Yeah.
Kathryn (40:16)
Just, yeah, I mean, it's a Washington Post article on kids, yeah, kids who've been reincarnated or like reincarnation cases, yeah. We
hear ya.
Gina (40:28)
Whatever, you guys know what I mean. So I'll link to that article in the show notes. Shout out to Kathryn for sending it to me because it's an absolutely phenomenal read. Highly recommend.
Global Cases
But apparently, since the 1960s alone, thousands of kids have described memories or experiences that they just simply should not have a reference for. And the reason that I say 1960s is that's just when we started writing this shit down.
Kathryn (40:37)
So good, so good.
Gina (40:56)
In all likelihood, this has been going on for even longer. And interestingly enough, many slash probably all of these cases are documented in a database from the Division of Perceptual Studies, which is where Dr. Stevenson is from. A guy named, just real quick on that division because I think it's fucking cool, a guy named Jim Tucker has since taken over for Dr. Stevenson.
Kathryn (40:56)
⁓ Yeah.
Gina (41:19)
but he carries on the same tradition of bringing a serious scientific approach to this topic. And between their collective tenures they've noticed some patterns in situations like this. First of all, most cases tend to happen between the ages of two and six. Kids might describe places or people that they shouldn't know or use vocabulary that's way too advanced for their age.
Nightmares occasionally accompany the experience and many of the kids are extremely verbal and start talking way earlier than other kids their age. They also say that in about two-thirds of these cases, kids can present so much information that parents or researchers are able to pinpoint a specific dead person or situation that these memories might have belonged to.
and I'm gonna give a few examples because it's our podcast and we can do whatever we want.
so the primary example that that article gives is about a little girl named Asia who has an imaginary friend named Nina. Over time, Asia started to speak as Nina and started relaying stories from Nina's life in which she appears to have been a Holocaust victim. part,
made my gut drop. one point Asia told her mother Nina has numbers on her arm and they make her sad. And this was a little like tiny little child she was like two or three like she shouldn't know any of this stuff.
Kathryn (42:46)
I hate that.
Yeah.
Gina (42:53)
We see another example of this in 2000, when a two-year-old boy named James started to wake up terrified, screaming the same phrase over and over, airplane crash on fire, little man can't get out. Over the next year, his parents started to hear more and more of these kinds of statements, and they also noticed patterns in the things their son was drawing. When they put it all together,
they realized that James was recalling the memories of a World War II pilot whose plane was shot down, to the point where James literally offered the specific names of people and places that he remembered.
the last example I'm gonna give is of a young boy named Ryan. when he was really little, he started waking up at night just inconsolable.
When Ryan's mom would comfort him because of these nightmares, he would tell her that he remembered living in Hollywood in a White House. He had three sons and a younger sister and that he drove a green car while his wife drove a black car. His parents weren't like completely sure what to do with this information, so they took him to a library and they let him check out a few books on old school Hollywood.
Not like encouraging the memories, just letting him explore the memories. Which I think like, A plus for parenting. I think that's so great.
Kathryn (44:13)
Mm-hmm.
mean, yeah,
all parents, like if your kid wakes up randomly interested in something, help them research it. That's a very good parent thing to do. Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (44:23)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
So one day, Ryan was flipping through one of these books when he pointed to a man in a picture and said, that's me.
Kathryn (44:36)
What wild I just can't with this story
Gina (44:37)
So now we have a name.
The guy's name, get ready for this, I love it. His name was Marty Martin.
Kathryn (44:44)
I don't remember that. That's so funny. I didn't know that. Marty Martin.
Gina (44:45)
Yep. And he was a
movie extra and a talent agent who died in his early sixties, which Marty Martin is just like the best talent agent name ever. Let me go talk to Marty Martin. ⁓ I know a guy.
Kathryn (44:59)
It sounds, yeah, it sounds like some back alley, like, let me make you a deal, like, yeah, you ever thought of being in movies? Yeah, yeah, a man named Marty Martin definitely knows a
lot of guys for sure.
Gina (45:14)
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah. So they have a name, but they still don't really know what to do. So they contact the Division of Perceptual Studies, and they helped the parents do a little bit more digging. Turns out, Ryan was fucking right. Our boy Marty Martin had a younger sister. He drove a green car, but his death certificate said that he died at the age of 59, not in his 60s. Ryan...
adamantly insisted that he had died at the age of 61. So the division did a little bit more digging and they found that there was a mistake on Marty Martin's death certificate. According to census records, marriage listings, and Marty's own daughter, Marty had in fact died at the very age Ryan had said.
Kathryn (46:04)
I mean, what other proof do you mean? Wild.
Gina (46:05)
Like, come on, it's real. Right, my God. And
things like this, cases like this, number in the thousands all across the world. These are just the ones that have been reported. There's no speaking for families that are like ignoring it or trying to hide it for some reason. But there is a lot to the point where ⁓ the division has literally a webpage titled Advice to Parents of Children.
Kathryn (46:15)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (46:33)
who are spontaneously recalling past life memories. So just in case anyone is listening to this and going through a similar situation, I want to end this episode by highlighting some of their advice. Also, because I just find it interesting. Okay, number one is don't panic. This doesn't mean anything is wrong with your kids. It's not usually don't panic. Don't freak out. Everyone's fine.
Kathryn (46:55)
I love that.
Everybody stay calm.
Gina (47:00)
but it's not usually
a mental health red flag is what they mean. Two is listen to your kids like you would with any big feeling they're having the same way you deal with a nightmare or someone taking their toy, things like that. Three, do not interrogate because that can plant ideas inside their head. Again, shout out to the satanic panic episodes. If you do want to ask them a question, the division recommends you don't say things like, what was your name?
Kathryn (47:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (47:29)
say, is there anything else you remember? Really vague, really open-ended. Yeah, right? It's such good advice. ⁓ Number four is to write everything down. Quotes, dates, details, all of it is helpful in an investigation. Five, I think this is such an important one, probably, I don't know, I'm not an expert, but I have feelings, is to keep their current life front and center. Remember that they are
Kathryn (47:34)
Yeah. I love these.
Yes.
Gina (47:57)
and remind them that they are a whole and complete human being as they are now, and they don't need to get stuck in who they used to be or the memories of the past.
Kathryn (48:08)
I do love that.
Gina (48:09)
Love
because like if this starts happening, I get the knee-jerk reaction to be like, holy shit, like we have to get to the bottom of this and focus on this so hard and like, you know what I mean? But kids are so, they're so little, but their feelings are so big. And so it's good to remind them that they're right here.
Kathryn (48:11)
Mm-hmm
Yeah, well...
Yeah, their feelings are big and their questions are big. Like three, two, three, four-ish age is when kids are learning that like they are part of the world and the world is a thing that exists. You know, like that's when the why starts happening. Like why, why, why, why, why?
Gina (48:27)
Mm.
Yeah,
I was the worst for that.
Kathryn (48:47)
All kids should be because
like, why? I'm still asking that question. Like, yes, why? Why does anything happen? but then add the fact that maybe they're also the soul of somebody else. I imagine that can be a lot for parents and children alike. Yeah.
Gina (48:51)
Hehehehehe
Yeah, yeah, which leads
me to number six, which I think you're going to be a big fan of this one as well. Don't fuck around with regression therapy. Just don't do it.
Kathryn (49:11)
Ugh, love it. Not for bitty, bitty children. Fuck that. Yeah. Yeah.
Gina (49:14)
Not for bitty babies, especially not for bitty babies. No, God no.
And finally, if you are scared or unsure in this situation, help is available to you. If you are going through something like this, we're gonna put a link in the show notes for you to reach out to UVA because they know what they're fucking doing. And that's all I got, man. That's the story of the Pollock twins and a whole bunch of other shit that I didn't plan on talking about.
Kathryn (49:34)
Nice.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
Gina (49:42)
So before we let you all go, Kathryn sent me very interesting text message that she has some updates on a past episode and I want to know what she's talking about.
Kathryn (49:54)
Excellent, because I want to tell you.
Update: The Tylenol Murders
So back in February during poison month, we did an episode on the Tylenol murders, if you all remember that, hopefully you do. If you haven't listened to it, highly recommend going back and listening to it. It's a great episode if we do say so ourselves. If you want to skip past it, that's okay, because there's another way you can consume this information. Quick summary for those who have not listened.
Gina (50:13)
And we do.
Kathryn (50:22)
and who do not know the story, the Tylenol murders were basically a string of murders in the Chicago area in 1982. They were the result of someone lacing Tylenol with lethal doses of cyanide. And the kicker is to this day, we do not know who did it. It remains a mystery all these years later. The update is Netflix. I'm getting very excited because it was so interesting.
Netflix released a three-part docu-series on the topic. It was released on Memorial Day. Phil and I sat and watched the entire thing in one sitting, despite the fact that I had to wake up early for work. I just, like, could not stop watching it. The first episode was literally just the story. Like, it was basically word for word the same as every podcast episode you've heard about it, including ours.
But it's still very interesting. You should go listen to it or watch it or whatever. The thing I have to talk about is, well, there's three things I want to talk about real quick. One, my absolute favorite part of this thing that I'm so excited about is you get to hear from the kids who are now like grown ass adults. Yes. So one of the victim's daughters, I'm not going to say which one or who she was because I want like people to like
Gina (51:36)
my gosh.
Kathryn (51:46)
have this experience for themselves, but she was one of the daughters who was like three or four at the time this story took place. ⁓ She's one of the main interviewees of this show and she has spent the last several years, maybe decades of her life like researching this whole situation. She's been in libraries, court cases, all these things like she's been combing through.
this case with a fine tooth comb as both a consumer of Tylenol and like public person wondering what the fuck happened and also someone with a personal investment. Like she's done her research on this and it was just super interesting.
Gina (52:25)
Yeah.
Kathryn (52:30)
of the things she found that perhaps Johnson and Johnson is not quite as innocent as they initially were made out to be. I know. I know. So I'm not gonna tell you too much more because everyone needs to go watch this. But what I will say is it was oddly validating to me.
Gina (52:39)
⁓
Tell me more.
Kathryn (52:57)
Because one of the most confounding things about this whole case to me is the fact that like, this is the only story ever where a ginormous corporation actually did something good, like responded appropriately and like everyone loved them for it. Because they've always been praised for their reaction and fast response time and all that. We talked about that in our episode. That's like a big deal. It's taught in schools as a way to, you know, respond to a tragedy from a
Gina (53:09)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (53:25)
in a legal and PR perspective. there are so many things that
were brought to light pretty early on that for some reason just were never talked about or like hidden or like pushed aside for some fucking reason. And I think the reason is because they were so hell bent nailing this James Lewis guy for it that these people were just like, fuck all these, you know, indicators that it was Johnson and Johnson fucking up.
Because remember, the FBI was so hell bent on nailing this James Lewis guy who was interviewed in this docuseries. It was his last interview before his death in 2023. This man, I will say, is super creepy. May he rest in peace or whatever. But he like he sits down and you're like, Whoa, that guy has done some shit.
Gina (54:01)
Yeah.
shit!
You
Kathryn (54:22)
But I genuinely, after watching this and hearing what everyone had to say and what he had to say and what she had to say and what the FBI had to say and blah, blah, I don't think he did it. I truly believe he did not do it. I think it was fucking Johnson and Johnson. I do. I do think he committed the other crime that I did not have time to go into in our episode. They talk about it more in Netflix series and I'm kind of like, yeah, he seems like he probably did that, which is not great, but. ⁓
I don't think he did the Johnson and Johnson thing, or the, I'm sorry, the Tylenol thing. Tomato, tomato.
Gina (54:57)
So Vibe
is Johnson & Johnson is responsible for cyanide making its way into Tylenol? Okay. What the fuck Johnson & Johnson?
Kathryn (55:03)
I so. I think so after watching this, I do.
don't change my opinion on them handling this very well from a PR perspective in the way that PR is all just bullshit and like a way to keep your reputation intact, which is exactly what they did because of the fact that I now think they're guilty.
Gina (55:18)
Mmm.
Huh, who would have thought that the huge corporation, Ringlomerate, could commit crimes against humanity?
Kathryn (55:33)
conglomerate, yeah.
I knew it. I remember thinking, this is so bizarre. This is the weirdest part of this story. Turns out...
I was wrong. It was them. I think, I mean, it's on Netflix. Like literally case, yeah, case closed. Like they've already been taken. Like I feel like this is a case closed as far as I'm concerned based on this one three-part series.
Gina (55:45)
Okay, it's on Netflix you said? We Ice Cream You Scream are officially accusing, we are taking on Johnson & Johnson.
Okay, okay.
Kathryn (56:03)
Anyway,
yeah, I definitely recommend, I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts. Like if you go and watch it and are like, fuck no, was definitely this James Guy or whatever. want to know what people think. So go and watch it, go and listen to our episode and then compare and contrast and send us your thoughts because I'm dying to talk about this with people. Yeah, so interesting.
Gina (56:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, same. my god, one hell of an update, dude. Fuck me. The criminal was capitalism all along. All along, as it always is.
Kathryn (56:30)
All along, as it always is.
Yeah, classic. Well, that's everyone's homework. Go and watch this. Listen to our episode and report back. So there will be a quiz. yeah, yeah. So yeah, grab a drink, grab a boozy ice cream drink and join us next week for bar month.
Gina (56:39)
There will be a pop quiz next week. We will be drunk, so it might not be hard to pass, but...
Kathryn (56:56)
until then, little spoons, keep it cool.
Gina (56:59)
Keep it creepy.
