90: McKamey Manor
Gina (00:54)
Welcome to I Scream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. My name is Gina.
Kathryn (01:03)
And I'm Kathryn
Gina (01:04)
And in August, we are telling
outrageous stories while we eat outrageous ice cream. If you already know us, welcome back, my darling. I'm so happy you're here. And if you want to see more from us, go on over and join us on Patreon. Link is in the show notes. Today's episode is sponsored by Clobear Money Coach. She might regret that after listening to what we're about to talk about.
Kathryn (01:27)
my god yeah.
Sorry. Sorry Chloe.
Gina (01:30)
If you listening are ready to start investing but you're not really sure how to go about it, visit get lazynow dot com. In the meantime, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Kathryn (01:40)
Excellent. This is my favorite part of today's episode. Yeah.
Gina (01:44)
The beginning and the end.
I did try drizzling some balsamic glaze on my ice cream this time, 'cause I said I would. Yep.
Kathryn (01:51)
Okay, I was gonna ask if you were doing the
same thing and if you were gonna do that. Does it is it
Gina (01:56)
We're gonna give it a go. We're gonna try.
Kathryn (01:58)
okay?
Gina (01:59)
that fucking rocks.
Kathryn (02:01)
my god, really?
Gina (02:02)
What the hell? Okay, if you have strawberry ice cream, drizzle balsamic glaze on it, that's so good. Not tons, it's
Kathryn (02:05)
Okay. Interesting.
Gina (02:09)
just a little bit. Ooh. Mm-hmm. Yes, correct. What about you? What are you having?
Kathryn (02:10)
And there is a little in the recipe as well, but you said you didn't get any of it last time.
It's the same as last time. I just
Gina (02:20)
Okay.
Kathryn (02:20)
have the it's the caramel cookie, like Oreo cookie
Gina (02:24)
Mm
Kathryn (02:25)
mixed with cherry. And I'm eating it right out of
Gina (02:27)
Hell yeah.
Kathryn (02:28)
the tub because there's only a couple bites left. Phil and I've been cracking into this.
Gina (02:33)
Hell yeah.
Ooh this might be a new favourite.
Kathryn (02:36)
That's so good to know. It makes sense 'cause if you think of like
the best dressing salad dressing for like a strawberry or fruit salad is balsamic or
Gina (02:45)
Yeah.
Kathryn (02:46)
something thereabouts. So it makes sense.
Gina (02:48)
I just I wouldn't
think to put it in ice cream form. That is bangin' though.
Kathryn (02:51)
Yeah.
Gina (02:52)
Wow, wow, wow. Learning so much already today. I think we should just call the episode here. Just
Kathryn (02:57)
Yeah.
okay, little spoons, until next time. No, everyone, it's gonna be good, I promise. We I hinted last week that I was between Chernobyl and MK Ultra, and I chose something totally different. but it just has been fucking me up while I was researching. that's why I'm taking my sweet time with my ice cream this morning. I did see my house ghosts again. So I want to tell you about that before we jump in.
Gina (03:24)
yes,
please. What happened?
Kathryn (03:28)
Actually let me finish my ice cream real quick. I have two more bites. This is so good. Sorry.
Can you hear me getting every last drip? Mm-hmm.
Gina (03:36)
I was just about to say it's like the the sweet ice creamy ASMR
of scraping the bottom of a cardboard pint.
Kathryn (03:43)
Yep. that's the ooh, she going through it sound.
Gina (03:50)
That's like
one of the horsemen of the woman apocalypse. That and getting bangs. And dyeing your hair, a weird color.
Kathryn (03:56)
Yeah.
Yep.
So I'm mostly excited about this I'm gonna say alleged or presumed ghost sighting because Phil experienced it too. So
we were having dinner one night and we're
I sit at the dining room table. I can see like I'm I face the entryway so I can see out the front door. And there was a bouquet of flowers obstructing my vision, we have the wreath on the front door. So there's just like a whole bunch of things obstructing my view from like seeing out.
The front window, on the front door. But I had a weird moment where I like felt like I was being watched. I looked up and it I had one of those moments where I could see what I believed to be a face, but like
Where it was didn't make sense. So it was one of those moments where everything I'm about to describe happened within the span of like four or five seconds. But my thought process was so deep. Like I remember thinking technically I can see Phil's reflection from the window, but it didn't make sense for it to be his face because he was looking at me. So like the reflection would have been or was the back of his head. And I was like, okay, am I seeing?
Like, is there someone on my front porch? And so I looked at my front door and I thought I saw like the full length of a person standing in the entryway. And I was like, well, that doesn't yes,
Gina (05:39)
Like inside your house. Sorry.
Kathryn (05:42)
yeah. And I was like, well, that also doesn't make sense because there's no one in my house. So I was like, okay, maybe it's the bouquet of flowers.
So I started leaning this way to see. And in that moment, I had the same sensation when remember that one time I went into the basement and I saw a guy and he was like and like disappeared. Same thing happened.
And so Phil is sitting there looking at me, like look at the entryway like a crazy person. And he was like, Whoa, what do you see? What's going on? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, nothing. I'm tired. I I like kind of wrote it up because it was so surreal feeling. Cause it took me so many steps to realize, I think I just saw a ghost. When usually that's my first thought, but this one was so like.
Blatant, then I was like, wait, what am I seeing? And so I was like, nothing. I'm just tired. Blah, blah, blah. He was like, no, what did you see? I was like, I think I just saw the house goes. He was like, sweet, lol. Ha ha. Okay, we saw the house goes. Blah, blah, blah. We move on. Later that night, I was in the kitchen and Phil was in the living room, which is right next to our entryway, where that would have been. And he had his back to the doorway that goes into the entryway. And the
After he was in there, like we always do like a treat thing with Spooky where he like does tricks for a treat every night, whatever. So he was doing that with Spooky. So he was like standing there for an amount of time with his back towards the entryway. And like five minutes later, he comes back into the kitchen And he says, Have you been in here this whole time? I know. And I said, Yeah, why?
And he's reiterated. He said, You sure you didn't come into the entryway at all? And at that point I said, Okay, I know you're fucking with me. Like, what are you doing? He was like, No, I swear to God, it felt like you were just behind me. I turned around expecting to see you. I thought you were fucking with me. I thought you were like sneaking up on me, and no one was there. And I was like, my god, that's the ghost. So
Gina (07:46)
Ha ha
Kathryn (07:46)
I asked him, I was like, Are you just saying this because you know?
That I would be excited about this and like I this is what I would want to hear, or did that really happen? He was like, Well, both, I'm telling you, because I know you'll be excited that I saw the house ghost, but to answer your real question, no, I'm not making it up. Yeah.
Gina (08:04)
Haha.
It's so validating when it happens to Phil.
Kathryn (08:07)
Isn't it so val? That's why I was so excited to t to tell you. Because I was like, it's one thing for me to have this story. It's another thing for him to like be part of it. Cause he came in and he did that thing where he kind of looked at me for a second like he knew the answer, but was like, I hope you tell me that you were just in the entryway. But no, I wasn't. I don't know what I don't know if he just felt someone.
behind him or if he heard something. He just said that he could have sworn that I was in the entryway. I think he just like felt someone there, which has happened before. There's definitely something going on in that entryway.
What?
Gina (08:43)
sorry,
you had your face that you use sometimes when you hear something and I was like, my god, is the ghost back?
Kathryn (08:47)
It's because I d
it's because I did just hear something, but I was trying
Gina (08:50)
Yeah.
Kathryn (08:50)
to brush past it. I think it was cinnamon though. Sorry. I yeah,
Gina (08:54)
Okay. Not the house goes.
Kathryn (08:56)
I I yeah, I went through a whole thing in my head just now, but I think it was cinnamon because she's not in here anymore. Sorry. I was trying to be cool about that.
Gina (09:05)
Was
Spooky being weird or was he just so distracted by the treat that a an army of ghosts could have come in and Okay
Kathryn (09:10)
He we could yeah, we could be in the middle of nuclear warfare and if there's a tree in front of him, he's not gonna notice. So
that is a good question though, because the other day, this
was a totally different day from this story, he was in a dead sleep, and the mailman had already come, there was no one outside, and all of a sudden he woke up and like immediately
was staring into the hallway, like into the entryway for like three seconds,
Gina (09:38)
Mm.
Kathryn (09:39)
and then he was good again.
Gina (09:41)
And wasn't it around there that you saw Ghost Cat too? Or Phil saw Ghost Cat there?
Kathryn (09:46)
yeah, she usually shows up there. And that is where the stairs are, where we used to hear people walking up and down all the time. But we haven't heard that in a while. But that's all in the same spot. Yeah.
Gina (09:56)
Okay,
yeah. I don't know why I was nodding. Like, yeah, I know how what your house looks like, forgetting that, you know, not everyone knows what your house looks like.
Kathryn (09:59)
Yes, yes. Yeah, I know. It's
weird whenever I explain stories like this to you because I'm like, I know you know what my dining room and entryway and all that looks like, but yeah. Anyway, that's my ghost experience.
Gina (10:11)
I'll be honest though whenever like
if I ever listen to like if if I'm listening to a podcast and someone's trying to describe the layout of a house to me, it's I can't picture it ever. I just can't do it.
Kathryn (10:22)
Everyone always says
that and even when like I'll be listening to a podcast and they're like reading a listener story or something and the person's describing it and even the hosts will be like, this means nothing to me. I appreciate a description so much. I feel like I'm the only iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com Do descriptions of house layouts matter to you? Because I feel like they help me so much.
Gina (10:48)
Well, I feel like it's helpful when it is related to the story they're tell like for you it's relevant because so much happened in the entryway. And so it's important to know where the entryway is in relation to other rooms to understand like the momentum
Kathryn (11:00)
Yeah.
Gina (11:00)
of what you were saying. But sometimes you hear a story where they spend like ten minutes explaining the layout of a room that has nothing to do with the story. And that so I just like
Kathryn (11:09)
well yeah.
Gina (11:10)
my eyes glaze over and I can't do I always wind up
Kathryn (11:12)
Yeah, that's fair.
Gina (11:13)
picturing, I'll just pick one of the homes I've lived in.
To picture as a house. So, like when
I was reading incidents around the house, I pictured my childhood home and it made it so much creepier.
Kathryn (11:26)
I did too. And I wonder if that's just because that's where all of us had monsters in our closet. I was thinking of that, and I was wondering if you
Gina (11:34)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Kathryn (11:35)
were the same. Yeah, because I was imagining the house I lived in from age like one and a half to like first grade when I was little, little. Because I would have been about her age. Yeah.
Gina (11:43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, say and I was picturing the
house that we lived in when I was like five or six, and that's the age I thought
Kathryn (11:49)
Yeah.
Gina (11:50)
she was. 'Cause she's eight, but I th in my head she was like five or six.
Kathryn (11:54)
Yeah, she's allegedly eight in that book, but I think she's six.
Gina (12:00)
Yeah.
Kathryn (12:00)
Based on like the thoughts she had and the th I don't know. I don't I'm not a child psychologist. I also didn't write the book. But in my head she's six.
Gina (12:08)
Yeah.
I remember being eight and being really smart, so she couldn't have possibly have been eight.
Kathryn (12:15)
Yes, I was
a brilliant, brilliant child. I don't remember what was going on at eight. I think that's when we were moving. don't know. It doesn't matter.
Gina (12:24)
Well, speaking of stories that would deeply disturb children, including incidents around
Kathryn (12:29)
Yes.
Gina (12:30)
the house, I would love to hear what you have for me today.
Kathryn (12:35)
Excellent. Here we go, guys.
Gina (12:37)
god.
Kathryn (12:38)
I really don't want to talk about this, but here we go. I don't know why I chose this. It's because this is truly one of the most outrageous things I've ever heard of and experienced. And it is one of those things that I have gotten obsessed with over the years, but also in the way that I try not to pay too much attention to it at all. Anyway,
Today we are going to be talking about Extreme Haunted House, McKamey Manor.
It is owned and operated by a man named Russ McKamey, who describes the experience as a quote, survival horror boot camp experience. So throughout this episode, I didn't really know what to call it. It is supposed to be, quote, extreme haunted house.
They refer to it, I think, as like an experience or tour or whatever. So I'm gonna be referring to it as mostly an experience, because it's just one of those things that's kind of hard to categorize. this story is going to be incredibly upsetting and goring, goring, gory and gross and awful to a lot of people. So I'm gonna summarize and skip past a whole bunch of minute detail, but even the summaries of some of the things are.
Pretty aggressive. so just content warning up front. I will be describing various forms of torture, psychological issues, and assault, including sexual assault. So just fair warning. Woo. Sorry. That was not that's how we're all gonna feel.
Gina (14:11)
Was that practice for how we'll feel?
Kathryn (14:16)
Sorry, I almost just knocked over my water bottle. I'm fine. I'm so good.
Gina (14:18)
Content warning for
Kathryn (14:22)
god. All right, here we go. I'm just gonna dive in. let's talk about the creator before we dive into the actual experience itself. Again, his name is Russ McKamey, and it was pretty difficult for me to find a like super detailed biography on him. If you look into this experience, it's really just news articles and descriptions of how crazy it is. And he also
has made an effort to live a pretty private personal life. So there's not a whole lot to be found on him or his family. I'll go through what I could find now.
Russ is described by people who know him as a performer. He's like the showman of the family and friends and stuff like that. He studied theater in college and he worked as a wedding singer for a while, which I think is adorable. I love a wedding singer. but he after he worked as a wedding singer, he ended up serving in the Navy for a little over 20 years.
including a stint of active duty from nineteen ninety two to nineteen ninety
While he was on the boat, he would regularly entertain his fellow sailors with haunts on board the ship. So he would like set up.
A haunted house for people to like experience on the ship. And after his stint in the Navy, he ended up settling in, I believe, San Diego, California, if not somewhere thereabout, somewhere in Southern California. is again kind of where his personal life gets a little ambiguous. know that he had a wife, I believe her name was Holly.
And he has at least one or two children. He does have a daughter, and I believe he also has a son. I don't know if he has any other children. it is well known that Russ loves dogs. He works very closely with local animal shelters. And a fun fact, which I think is actually really unsettling, the cost of admission to the haunted experience we're going to talk about is one bag of dog food that gets donated to the local animal shelter.
Which I just right off the bat I'm so curious what the local animal shelters think. Like, I don't know. I'm like curious what their experience is being so closely associated with this haunt. But I don't think
Gina (16:38)
Mm.
Kathryn (16:39)
anyone's ever come out and said anything, but I'm not sure. it also goes without saying that he is incredibly passionate about Halloween. This is where we kind of stumble into the beginning of our actual story.
The infamous Extreme Haunt began as simple decorations for Halloween in the I think mid to late nineties. He just wanted to create a cute, fun thing that he did for neighborhood kids. So it started as just one of those little local haunted houses, like in the yard. And I think it eventually started going through the house, but it was literally just volunteer local neighborhood, like
That extra spooky house that you stop at around Halloween that like just kind of goes above and beyond. That's how it started. It was super simple, super wholesome, a neighborhood, family-friendly, haunted experience. That's how it got going. And then as word spread throughout the community, so did the popularity. And therefore, so did production. So it was like every year more and more people would show up, and every year.
it would get crazier, crazier and spookier and spookier. until eventually he was getting thousands of visitors each season and it became like a fall on haunted house. It was no longer just for trick or treaters.
Then by the early 2010s, Russ relocated to Tennessee. And there is apparently also another location in Huntsville, Alabama, but I couldn't find a lot of information on that one. I think everything we're gonna be talking about is just the main one in Tennessee where he actually lives.
So now he's in Tennessee and he was kind of set on creating something that had never really been done before. Like I said, he was always kind of chasing what comes next. Like, how can I make this bigger and better and crazier and spookier than it was last year? And it slowly over time and then almost all at once became this haunted attraction where the place itself wasn't the attraction, but guests.
Became their own attraction. It became this immersive, significantly more violent experience than it had been before. Participants must apply online and complete a waiver that has reportedly grown to over 40 pages long. There's a version of the waiver online that I I think it's outdated, but I'm not sure. But that one has, I think 23 pages is what I found.
more on this later. We will be going through this waiver at length.
Gina (19:16)
Right. my god.
Kathryn (19:18)
but yeah, reports range anywhere from like 20 to 40 pages. I believe the more updated version is 40. In addition to applying online in order to participate and filling out the waiver, participants are also required to pass a legal background check, provide a clean bill of health from a physician.
And also provide proof of mental and psychological stability from some sort of like mental health professional.
Gina (19:48)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (19:50)
Yeah. So the attraction became invitation only. I don't know exactly how that works. I don't know if it's like you apply online and then he has to reach out to you in order for it to work out or if it's like word of mouth or what it is. but there are reportedly over 20,000 people on this waiting list currently. And the experience has been described as lasting up to 10 hours.
and he apparently has promised that any participant who finishes the experience will win a cash prize of $20,000. Though it is reported that A, he doesn't have the money. More on that later. and also the average amount of time people have actually lasted in this experience is about eight minutes.
Gina (20:44)
my god.
Kathryn (20:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, we'll dive deeper into all of this. We're still just in like the overview.
Gina (20:50)
my god, okay.
Kathryn (21:53)
admission to this thing is a bag of dog food.
he has promised people $20,000 that many people close to him are pretty adamant that he likely doesn't have. So why would he risk someone actually completing this challenge if he doesn't have this money? Easy. He's the one in charge of deciding when people are actually done with this challenge. No, yeah, exactly. No
Gina (22:22)
Mm.
Kathryn (22:23)
two tours.
Are ever the same, and it's not clearly communicated anywhere what exactly needs to happen for people to quote unquote complete this experience. It is said that it can last up to 10 hours, and that's really it. So people will go into this thinking, all I have to do is make it 10 hours. But again, Russ is the one who decides when someone's had enough, or you know, if it's too dangerous for them to continue or blah blah blah blah blah, whatever it might be. So
If someone hasn't tapped out before the 10 hours, all he has to do is say, You've had enough. It's too dangerous. Now we're done. And that's it.
This did happen to one man. He did get pulled
during an experience that he felt he was still totally in control of. we'll get deeper into all of the things that go on here, but what was happening in this time is this man was being dunked in a pool of freezing water repeatedly. And
he had trained for this. He had heard that this was a thing that people could experience. And he was, he f I will say he allegedly felt in control of the situation. He felt like he was doing his mindfulness and his breathing and he was staying calm. And then all of a sudden, Russ was just like, Nope, you're freaking out. We gotta go. We're done. And this guy was like, What the hell? I'm so close to the end. Like, why would you pull me? And Russ was just like, Nope, all done. So
Again, super easy for no one to ever win this thing and Russ to never actually have to pay anyone any money. like I said though, getting trapped in a pool of freezing water is just one of the torture situations that people have experienced here. The waiver outlines very specific things that might happen to people at this experience. and I'm gonna list some things that the waiver says, and they are gross.
And uncomfortable. So just skip ahead a couple of minutes if you don't want to hear it. One of the things that people might experience is being forced to ingest live bugs. They may be enclosed in containers with limited air supply, which reportedly is code for being buried alive. They may get zip tied, they may be hung upside down by their ankles, they may be choked or gagged, and vomiting may occur. They may receive tattoos or piercings.
They may be given, quote, medication that may induce hallucinations or sedatives, either in pill form or hypodermic administration. These are all outlined in the official waiver for this experience. these are things that people understand
they may experience when they sign on for it. The problem is, as popularity increased, more and more people started going to the experience and applying to.
have this experience and the tour kept like escalating and escalating until eventually numerous former participants started speaking out publicly about how things did not go the way they were told they were go. As outrageous as the waiver is it like the accusations are even more extreme.
Common allegations include severe psychological trauma, coercion, as in people were made to feel like they had to sign this waiver and do this experience in the first place when they didn't even really want to. unsafe conditions, severe manipulation, and even sexual assault. People went into this thinking that it was just your average extreme scare experience, and it ended up being actual physical and psychological torture.
I'm about to give you another list. I'm sorry. I'm just listing
out this whole episode because I'm like this like the fastest I can get through this without losing my mind. So this is the one truly skip ahead because these are like super awful and uncomfortable. People who had the experience claimed that Russ did.
numerous things, including but not limited to extracting their teeth without any Novocaine. I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know, I'm sorry. I
Gina (26:39)
That's the one that I knew coming into my god.
Kathryn (26:42)
know.
I'm trying to do remember the very first episode of this entire podcast. I did this with Elizabeth Bathory, and I was like, I'm just gonna roll through them real quick. And we spent like 15 minutes on it because we were like, this is literally Elizabeth Bathory like on acid. It's so much worse. I'm only listing four, and there are so many more on top of this. okay, so teeth extraction. He's accused of pulling off people's fingernails.
One woman said that the team fish hooked the inside of her mouth and like dragged her. Yep, last one, sorry. Another man stated that he was chained to the back of a truck and dragged through gravel. Yeah.
So Russ has consistently denied any wrongdoing and has maintained that participants volunteered and signed waivers and could quit at any time. And this is where things get muddy because I've again I've read the waiver and the number of times the phrase etc. is used
Gina (27:55)
Hmm.
Kathryn (27:56)
is such a red flag in this waiver.
It's so incredibly manipulative because he intentionally lists things that any normal person would expect to experience or see on any haunted house waiver. Like you see a chance of death at like the trampoline park. You know what I mean? Like
Gina (28:23)
Yeah.
Kathryn (28:24)
that's just a thing that places say.
So he'll include these very normal things, and then list out what people quote might experience, but then he ends every list with, etc.
So it'll be something like, you know, participants may experience disorientation, cuts, bruises, et cetera. So, like, our logical minds are like, okay, I've been disoriented in a haunted house before, I've bumped into things and gotten a bruise, it'll be fine. But what we don't know.
Is that hiding behind the etc is apparently tooth extraction and like
Gina (28:58)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (28:58)
getting dragged through gravel. Like these are the things that the etcetera allows him basically to do. beyond the etcetera's, the waiver straight up says multiple times different variations of quote, participant understands that they are not really getting beaten up and tortured, and this is just a game.
Gina (29:18)
Mm mm Yeah.
Kathryn (29:20)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (29:21)
Okay, cool.
Nice that he only extracts fake teeth.
Kathryn (29:26)
R thank you. Yep. But he's not really hurting them because they asked for this. Per the waiver. Yeah. Yep.
Gina (29:32)
I almost forgot about that, thank you. You know what, take another fingernail. I forgot this was just a game.
Kathryn (29:36)
Yeah, exactly. It also goes on to say multiple times, and these are direct quotes from the waiver that I pulled. Participant understands that they have been warned numerous times about the intensity of McKamey Manor by the owners and other members of the crew that all caps.
You really do not want to do this. They like says that right in the waiver. So if someone tries to accuse them of anything or bring charges against them, it's right there in this legal document that they signed that,
you know, well, we told them they didn't want to do it and they decided to anyway. like, okay, didn't expect to be like legally tortured though.
Gina (30:22)
I hate McKamey Manor so much. I think it's so disgusting. If you if you can't tell from my visceral reactions to literally everything you said, it's there's a big
Kathryn (30:31)
Yeah.
Gina (30:31)
difference between legal and ethical
Kathryn (30:34)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (30:35)
slash moral. This dude just likes to torture people. That's it. He's just a psychotic
Kathryn (30:40)
Yeah.
Gina (30:41)
fucking asshole who tortures people for fun. And he literally does it for free because he finds it so much fun. So
Kathryn (30:47)
That's the thing. I and and we'll get into this more later.
that's really exactly it. It he really just wants to hurt people and he has
Gina (30:59)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (31:00)
found a way to do it legally, basically.
And there's all this psychology and blah blah blah that goes into it. I did find I'll I'll link it. I didn't pull too much from it just because I was getting emotionally overwhelmed while doing this episode. But I did find this link that kind of explores the ethics of the way he goes about doing it. And i it the consensus was there it it's not ethical at all. Which, like to your point, yes, there is a difference between
legal and morally and ethically sound. And something we don't talk about enough in my personal opinion, but anyway.
Gina (31:40)
Yeah. And I feel like 'cause I've fallen down the McKamey like rabbit hole. 'Cause I like you, I find it
Kathryn (31:44)
Yeah.
Gina (31:45)
fascinating like dark and disturbing, but fascinating. And so every few years
I'll like just reread
Kathryn (31:49)
Yeah.
Gina (31:50)
everything about it 'cause I wanna see if there's been any updates or like anything I've forgotten about. And my memory
Kathryn (31:54)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (31:55)
is you'll have a much more recent memory than me, obviously. But my memory is that like whenever I would read forums about it or discussions online, there would always be at least a few people that were like, well they signed up for it. Like they knew what they were getting into, he's not doing
Kathryn (32:07)
Mm-hmm always.
Gina (32:08)
anything wrong. And it's like how
On earth can you think that someone fish hooking a woman's mouth and dragging her on the ground is doing nothing wrong just because she signed
Kathryn (32:18)
Yeah.
Gina (32:19)
a waiver? I can't with this fucking guy.
Kathryn (32:22)
And and that like that sentence that you just said, it's so annoying like the quote that you said quoting the people that
Gina (32:31)
Mm.
Kathryn (32:31)
say that are like half of it is true. Like they signed a document.
They didn't sign up for this, and
Gina (32:39)
Mm.
Kathryn (32:40)
that doesn't mean that therefore there's nothing wrong. Like, and that's what's so frustrating about that argument because it's so much more nuanced than just, well, they said yes, especially since we know coercion is one of the accusations. Like, maybe they didn't want to sign off on anything, let alone this.
yeah, it's it's frustrating and it's one of those things. Any discussion about ethics is so difficult with people who are just like, well, it's the law. And it's like, well, the
Gina (33:13)
Yeah.
Kathryn (33:14)
law's also not always ethical. Like, don't even get me started on that discussion, you know? Like, I don't know.
Gina (33:19)
Mm.
Kathryn (33:22)
Yeah, I just I have so much more to say, but we'll talk more about that specifically in a little bit. one thing that
sounds ethical and sounds like, three cheers for McKamey Manor,
but actually isn't, is they, they being participants, are told that they are able to use a safe word at any point in this experience. And that is their way of like tapping out. Like if you use this safe word, you're done, we're done, everything's done. And in response to everything we were just talking about. I
Do you want to take this opportunity to remind people that like this is how this type of thing is supposed to be done. This is how this is supposed to work. I'm like not here to kink shame anyone. If you get a thrill from experiencing pain of some sort or like extreme experiences, love that for you. iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com Tell me your story, because I am intrigued and want to know more.
Gina (34:22)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (34:23)
But like that is a thing. Like it's why dominatrixes make so much fucking money because this is a thing that people are into. And when done in a safe and consensual way, where people have an out when it gets to be too much, it can be perfectly mentally and physically healthy. But you have to have 100% clear consent from start to finish the
Gina (34:47)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (34:48)
entire way, or else.
It's no longer ethical, like period. So the problem is Russ and his team have been accused several times of not respecting the safe word when participants try to use it. And all of the outrageous accusations aside, this is the thing that makes this place like cross the line for me. Because even if they do know that they're signing up for fish hooks and fingernails, etc.
if you cannot respect the safe word, then you do not deserve to have a right to a company or experience like this. one line of defense that Russ has used to prove that this is not the case, that he doesn't, you know, ignore safe words and it's always 100% consensual, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is the fact that every tour is recorded.
Which is another thing people sign off on, quote unquote. They ask for it, blah, blah, blah. It is in the waiver that people understand they will be recorded. I also think, I don't know this for sure, but I I do think it might also be live streamed. I'm not positive. Yeah. Girl, right? Like what the heck? Just like.
Gina (36:01)
Great, that would be excellent. So we know how he's making his
money.
Kathryn (36:08)
So
that's what I'm wondering because I couldn't find anything on that. I couldn't find anything on like if it's to your point, like that is my assumption as well, but I couldn't find anything on like monetization or if people I think it at least used to just be a private Facebook group. Like I don't think people needed to pay. Like you can see these videos on YouTube. They have a YouTube account and they're on their website. I didn't see a paywall, but I also
didn't spend a lot of time trying to watch these videos because I don't want to. Sorry. I was going
Gina (36:41)
Yeah, that's fair.
Kathryn (36:42)
to for research purposes. And I sorry everyone. My research ended with thinking about watching the videos and then I didn't actually do it. My apologies.
Gina (36:54)
You know what, I think let's make a
pledge to not watch Torture Porn for this podcast ever. We don't need
Kathryn (36:59)
Girl,
Gina (37:00)
to do that.
Kathryn (37:01)
listen, little spoons, I was willing to do that for you for like half a second. I just can't. It's just not for me. It's just not my jam. anyway, so sorry, I got der I derailed myself for a second. So these experiences are recorded, and that's kind of his quote unquote proof that they aren't doing anything wrong or
Aren't doing anything that he wouldn't feel comfortable with people seeing because it's totally on the up and up. Literally, all he has to fucking do is turn off the camera. That's it. Like, it's so easy to understand how flawed that logic is. But he's not a logical person. And therefore, it's like, see, I'm fine. Look, you can see for yourself. But we can't see the things he's doing that he's not supposed to be doing. But I'm
also like,
If he's willing to show all of this stuff that he's showing, what is the stuff that he's not willing to show, basically?
Gina (38:02)
I don't
I don't think that's something I wanna know. I think it's something we should find
Kathryn (38:06)
I don't either.
Gina (38:06)
out. And by we I mean the royal we, everyone, society, not specifically you and me, because
Kathryn (38:09)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (38:12)
I don't I don't think we'd be okay. I am I wonder how it works in terms of like audio though, because I'm also thinking if unless they're like micing
Kathryn (38:20)
Mm.
Gina (38:21)
up these people before they go in, once they start getting tortured, like there are certain types of torture where you're not gonna be able to say your safe word very loudly, where like
Kathryn (38:30)
Mm.
yeah, good point.
Gina (38:31)
You know, Russ in theory,
like he would be able to hear it if it was like whispered or like kind of a husky, rough
Kathryn (38:37)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (38:37)
voice coming out, but a camera up in a corner might not pick it up. And so that's also an easy way to get around it if you can't hear it on the recording, you know?
Kathryn (38:46)
that's such a good I didn't even think of that. Yeah, that's such a good point. But especially the types of things. If you're
Gina (38:51)
Mm.
Kathryn (38:52)
getting dragged behind a truck, you think
Gina (38:55)
Yeah.
Kathryn (38:55)
anyone's gonna be able to hear you s saying a safe word?
Gina (38:59)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (39:00)
Yeah, that's such a good point. Ugh, that's awful. It does say, and not, you know, I don't know what this has to do with anything, but it feels important to say. It does say in the waiver that.
people are not allowed to bring any of their own v like audiovisual equipment or anything like that.
Gina (39:19)
Mm.
Kathryn (39:20)
And they do get like, I don't know if it's a straight up strip like strip search, but you do get like padded down and make sure that there's no like wire or anything. Which that's one of those things can be argued away that that he doesn't want people making money off of like a behind the scenes look. But if you're truly recording everything, ooh.
Why are you so scared
Gina (39:41)
Yeah.
Kathryn (39:42)
of someone else recording it as well? When
Gina (39:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (39:44)
you're not making money from it. You could easily just monetize to your point from earlier. You could easily just monetize that on your own.
Gina (39:51)
Yeah.
Kathryn (39:54)
Okay.
Gina (39:56)
God. Okay.
Kathryn (39:59)
So I I mean, as is obvious and we've already mentioned, there have been several accusations and in addition to accusations from actual participants, petitions have been started by the community to get the place closed down. And
There's just been all of this hella blue by people both who have experienced it and just like straight up don't want it in operation anymore. But he has never been prosecuted for anything. because everything he's done to participants, either A, there is no proof for all of the reasons that we just stated, or legally, quote unquote, participation is
Signed off on. Like people signed the waiver. And that's the point of a waiver so that no one can ever sue you for anything.
Gina (40:49)
That's the thing, because this so directly targets torturing people without very much money. Because if you're the kind of person who's willing
Kathryn (40:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gina (40:57)
to be tortured for up to ten hours just for twenty which like that's a lot of money, but it's not really that much money, like
Kathryn (41:02)
Mm-hmm. Which I was gonna say, I definitely wanna yeah,
I wanna be very clear. That is a lot of money and life changing for a lot of people. But that's the kind of money that like that's not gonna last you a lifetime. Like you're still gonna have to work. Yeah.
Gina (41:13)
Exactly. And so it's people
who like probably couldn't afford to be litigious with him, you know? God, I'd hate it.
Kathryn (41:20)
Right. Right. I wouldn't be able to like,
man, twenty thousand dollars seems real nice to me, but like
Gina (41:26)
Yeah.
Kathryn (41:26)
I wouldn't be able to fight, you know.
Gina (41:29)
Yeah.
Kathryn (41:30)
I mean I would never do this, but like more on that later.
So yeah, it seems plain and simple. It's in the waiver. People sign off on it. Blah, blah, blah. What's not plain and simple is the coercion accusations. everything you were just saying about people who are like the type of person who would do something like this, a lot of them are people who
Have something to prove either to themselves or something else. This is essentially described as like the world's most intense tough guy challenge, essentially.
Gina (41:58)
Mm.
Kathryn (41:59)
so when people are going through the waiver, it is said that the team will be there basically talking shit to people and like egging them on and kind of laying into that aspect and making them feel like, what are you afraid? Why won't you just sign it? Blah, blah, blah, blah. aka.
Coercing them into signing this thing that maybe they don't actually want to do. so the experience starts before you actually sign the waiver, which is not the way signing a waiver to an experience is supposed to work. how are you going to say that, this is all just a game, it's all just pretend, but you were doing it before they even consented to it legally with this waiver.
And
on top of that, coercion is famously difficult to prove because all you have to do is say, like, no, I didn't. Like,
Gina (42:51)
Hm.
Kathryn (42:52)
it's so subjective and it lays into such a deep p like psychological part of a person that someone could feel coerced into doing something.
when without the person doing the coercion actually actively saying, you need to do this. It's so manipulative. So it's really difficult to prove, especially if there's no proof, which there's not, because of course that part of the experience isn't recorded because the experience hasn't started yet.
Gina (43:22)
Yeah. And if you're being coerced into doing something where you think you will have the power to end it at any time with a safe word, you're so much more likely to say yes because you can just, in theory,
Kathryn (43:28)
Yes mm hmm Yeah.
Gina (43:32)
be done as soon as you're done. But
Kathryn (43:34)
Exactly. Yeah.
Russ did sue the state of Tennessee back in April of 2024 because authorities did show up to investigate claims made against him and the manor, which I think has
happened numerous times.
People have been accusing him of things for years. so he sued them back for basically you're gonna love this. He sued them for violating numerous amendment rights or whatever rights that he has. I'll Yeah. Yes. Well
Gina (44:08)
What that amendment? The right to torture! Long proud American tradition. Okay.
Kathryn (44:14)
Yeah, apparently the right to torture people falls under the First Amendment per Russ McCainy. Man,
Gina (44:19)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Kathryn (44:22)
listen, not that I don't like my rights as an American, but I'm so fucking sick of the First Amendment because like what does it mean? Like if I hear one more person bring up a lawsuit claiming their First Amendment right has been violated, I'm gonna lose my mind. he also sued the Well, I'll say which it was the first
Fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amendments that according to him were violated. that is First Amendment is freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government. So he most people like Russ who sue for First Amendment right violation is usually their freedom of speech because they hate when they're not allowed to say and do whatever the fuck they want. Fourth Amendment is unreasonable search and seizure. Fifth is
It essentially protects you from being treated unfairly by the government. And the 14th Amendment is very similar to the fifth. It's just supposed to protect due process, equal treatment under the law for everyone, no matter who you are. I'm gonna brush
Gina (45:26)
Hm.
Kathryn (45:27)
past all of this because you know I wanna sit and talk about this so much more. Nobody has any rights, guys.
Gina (45:33)
it hurts. It hurts
so bad.
Kathryn (45:37)
Okay. So big shock. Just a few months after he sues the state of Tennessee in April of 2024, July of 2024, Russ McKamey was arrested for assault.
The charges were not brought by someone who went through the experience, but by his girlfriend. Big shock. I'm gonna pause
Gina (45:59)
Yeah.
Kathryn (46:00)
for astonishment.
he was booked on a $1,000 bond and ordered to have no contact with her. While he was locked up, she filed more charges against him for attempted murder. She accused him, I'm gonna say allegedly for legal purposes only, of trying to kill her on more than one occasion. the most recent of which occurred the day he was booked.
again, for legal purposes, I'm going to say according to allegations, content warning for this, he brutally sexually assaulted her and strangled her to the point of her passing out. this is terrible and awful and disgusting and infuriating. And also, unfortunately, I think the perfect illustration for the whole issue that everyone has.
With this man and the operation that he is running, because he clearly doesn't understand consent. We've known this from the beginning of this episode. he doesn't understand the way it works, or in his case, is supposed to work, but for some reason he still hasn't figured that out. if you have a violent person in charge of
An allegedly simulated violent experience, whether it's supposed to be f simulated or fake or pretend or not, it's only a matter of time before the simulated violence crosses the line into actual violence, unless you have someone who is not an inherently violent person in charge of that. And even then, people get carried away and shit happens that's not supposed to happen.
it's like a one plus one equals two type of situation.
Gina (47:40)
Yeah. Shocking that the guy who chooses to torture people all day enjoys torturing people. Yeah.
Kathryn (47:45)
Yeah, for free. Right,
exactly. So, I mean, we can argue, discuss whatever the legalities of what he's doing all day long. Because, like we were saying earlier in this episode, the waiver is phrased in a way that everything he's doing is on the up and up. He is legally torturing people per their quote unquote consent by signing this waiver. but
On top of that, I'm gonna say one more infuriating thing. I'm so sorry. He does that thing that makes me want to throw myself out the frickin' window. I absolutely hate when people do this. And you're gonna know exactly what I'm talking about. He does that thing where he just straight gaslights everyone about what he's actually doing. So for I for example, the manor has been accused of.
Of waterboarding people, which is highly illegal in the United States and internationally under the UN, it is considered a war crime and illegal form of torture. when he addressed these waterboarding accusations, he said, we don't waterboard people, we just make them think that they're drowning. We're not ever actually going to drown them. For those who don't know, that's waterboarding.
Gina (49:04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kathryn (49:05)
Simulated
drowning as a form of torture is waterboarding. So it's like, buddy, you're doing the thing. No, I'm not. I'm doing this thing. That's the thing, man. That's it. Yeah.
Gina (49:21)
Not that doesn't surprise me at all that he would use that kind of defence.
Kathryn (49:26)
Yeah.
What are your thoughts?
Gina (49:29)
I mean, I find that I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, I'm shocked that this is what billions of years of evolution and the stars coming together has led to.
Kathryn (49:43)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (49:45)
On the other hand, I completely believe it. I
Totally believe this is happening because there are some horrible, horrible
Kathryn (49:49)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (49:50)
people in the world. And if anything, I'm shocked we don't have more stories and more McKamey Manors that we hear about all the time. And I'm sure they do exist, and this is just the most well-known one. And so it's this
Kathryn (49:59)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (50:00)
horrible in-between of life could be wonderful. We really were handed everything. We had a beautiful green earth, we got opposable thumbs, we got critical thinking skills.
Kathryn (50:12)
Okay.
Gina (50:13)
And this is what we choose to do with it. And it
Kathryn (50:16)
Yeah.
Gina (50:18)
it makes me real sad and like I have a stomachache and that's it. That's how I feel.
Kathryn (50:23)
Okay, same page.
Gina (50:25)
Yeah.
Kathryn (50:26)
Definitely same page. And I do, this is actually a really good transition into kind of the the closing of this episode. I I I do a couple
things. There are more McKamey manners, and the reason you don't hear about them is they
I'm gonna say relative to McKamey Manor, because all of them have people who want them shut down and don't agree with the practices and all those things. None of them have the allegations against them that McKamey Manor has.
Gina (51:00)
Mm.
Kathryn (51:01)
There are no issues with coerced waiver signage. There are no accusations of safe words not being respected. Like the
The experience is not akin to torture. It is truly a an extreme haunted experience. And if people get bumps and bruises, they really are bumps and bruises, not missing teeth. You know what I mean? Like it is
Gina (51:25)
Mm.
Kathryn (51:27)
it is the ethical version of what Russ is pretending he's doing. And
Gina (51:34)
Mm.
Kathryn (51:36)
There's again, there's always going to be people who don't want this type of thing to exist at all. And there's always going to be people who are so anti-violence that, you know, this they cannot even fathom someone ever wanting to do this. And if someone's doing this, they're mentally sick and it needs to be shut down. And I don't agree with that. Like I do think that people should have a right to do things that they, you know, feel is right for them. I'm I'm gonna put it this way.
but there are all there is a safe way to do that and a not safe way to do that. And McKamey Manor is doing it in the unsafe way. So I did search for alternatives to McKamey Manor for people who like are into this kind of stuff and do want to do it safely. I couldn't find any like severe allegations to toward the ones that I found. But if anyone listening has heard of anything, please let us know. And I'm not
I don't consider like grandma down the street like clutching her pearls at these things existing to be a severe allegation. I mean like ethically and morally and legally 17th door in Buenaperque, California is one that popped up a lot that people really seem to like. Blackout Haunted House, which has locations in LA and New York City. And then there's another one called Scare House in Pittsburgh.
they seem equally extreme, but just not as violent. Like it does seem I'm gonna talk about Scare House specifically, because it actually seems like kind of a cool experience. It kind of seems like you are like in an actual simulated horror movie,
these are all essentially like full contact haunted houses, but they're not allowed to like hurt you, basically is the difference. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah.
Gina (53:19)
Okay, okay, that's a massive difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kathryn (53:23)
If you get like a bump or a bruise, it's because things are dark and you stumbled and ran into or whatever. You know what I mean? It's not like torture. It's just more of like a psychological experience.
Again, if I'm wrong and there are accusations against any of these places, please let us know. I'm more than happy to record a retraction. but I mean listen, if you're into that kind of thing, do it. Just tell us about it. And also don't go to McKamey Manor. Go to one of these other places. That's all I have to say.
Gina (53:51)
Ha ha
Kathryn (53:54)
I do so I do want to say, I there is a documentary. I didn't have time to re-watch it. And I think it came out before his arrest. so there's some inform there's a lot of updated
information on him. But Phil and I watched it when it first came out. And Phil and I were talking about it, and I asked him, would you ever
Go to McKamey Manor. Phil totally seems like someone who would be like, yeah, I could do it, knowing full well he wouldn't actually go to McKamey Manor. But he full on said, I wouldn't go to this place, but I would absolutely go to a place like this to see what it was like. But with the caveat of he would be nervous that they wouldn't.
respect that they'd be all McKamey Manor about it. And like he would be nervous that he wouldn't have an out,
Gina (54:42)
It would have to be a very you know what? I'm immediately gonna take back what I was about to say. 'Cause I was gonna say, it would have to be like
Kathryn (54:47)
I was gonna say
Gina (54:49)
a ver an extremely safe environment where there are like doctors and medical professionals on call and
Kathryn (54:54)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (54:54)
psychologists watching the live stream to like say when maybe
Kathryn (54:57)
Yeah.
Gina (54:58)
things are going too far. And even then I still wouldn't do it.
Kathryn (55:01)
Yeah, I I am just one of those people where like as I'm sitting here safe in my super comfy fuzzy chair with a foot rest, I'm like, yeah, I do it. And then I just actually wouldn't. I got scared when I was have you ever been in one of those are they called? One of those like float tank pod things. I had an anxiety
Gina (55:18)
the like the sensory deprivation things? Ugh.
Kathryn (55:22)
attack when I went into one of those. So I'm like
cannot imagine
Gina (55:26)
I get that.
Kathryn (55:27)
what type of mental breakdown I would have at a place like this. but I don't know. Like I would I I would want to watch the experience happen to someone and then decide. But also like I wouldn't want to have to watch that.
I wouldn't trust it if I was watching it, a recording of it. I wouldn't need to be in like a what are those rooms that have like the one way window that you can observe, like an interrogation. That I would need to be in like something
Gina (55:55)
I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
Kathryn (55:59)
like that, some type of observation room or something.
Gina (56:01)
They just
have a cardboard cutout, Kathryn in there.
Kathryn (56:06)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.
Gina (56:08)
Yeah, no, I think
that that has no appeal to me whatsoever. I'll stay
Kathryn (56:14)
Yeah.
Gina (56:14)
in my little world of cinnamon rolls and butterflies and unicorns and that and occasional murder mystery novels. That's where I'll happily stay. But if anyone listening to this
Kathryn (56:25)
Yeah.
Gina (56:25)
is the kind of person who totally would do an extreme experience like that, I wanna know why. So iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. Yeah, if you ever
Kathryn (56:31)
Yeah. And also like if you ever have, yeah.
Gina (56:35)
have, I wanna know.
Tell me why. Tell me w
Kathryn (56:37)
Me too.
Gina (56:38)
wha what was it like?
Kathryn (56:39)
I will say this, it is not for me, but I do absolutely get it. It I 100% absolutely understand how there are a lot of things that I don't want to say it can be helpful because that feel like I don't know that for certain, but there are people that have like a hard time feeling emotions. And this can be a way that people can simulate fear.
or adrenaline or whatever in hopefully a healthy and safe environment. and it sucks that McKamey Manor doesn't provide that. You know what I mean? Like
Gina (57:16)
Mm.
Kathryn (57:17)
that I don't know. I have all these thoughts that I am not I do not have the credentials to share.
Anyway, that's McKamey Manor. Stay away, go somewhere else if you want to do something like this. That's the takeaway on this episode. This is the extreme and outrageous version of an already extreme experience.
Gina (57:39)
Well, thank you for doing that research. So I
Kathryn (57:41)
You're welcome.
Gina (57:42)
didn't have to. I'll I'll take the filtered version through you any day. do you want to hear something a little bit more lighthearted? Okay,
Kathryn (57:51)
I do.
Gina (57:52)
I do have something for you.
I have a silly little tale to tell you, because I thought we might need a silly little tale. And it starts with a fun
Kathryn (58:00)
Thank you.
Gina (58:01)
fact,
Which is that for over 500 years, certain graduates at Oxford University had to swear an oath to never forgive a guy named Henry Simeonis.
Have you ever heard about this before? Okay, yeah. So for our
Kathryn (58:11)
my god, what? No I haven't.
Gina (58:15)
scary odd top today, I'm gonna be telling you about this Henry Simeonis guy and who the heck was he and why did Oxford students like swear to hate him for forever. Well, the follow-up fun fact is that for most of those 500 years, no one knew who this guy was or what he had done. It was completely lost to time.
Kathryn (58:32)
my god.
Gina (58:34)
The oath of
comes from like kind of a commencement ceremony that Oxford holds before students begin their academic sessions. It's a tradition that like goes centuries and centuries into the past. And this one goes that if you are a Bachelor of Arts student looking to begin your Master of Arts degree, you had to swear to quote, never consent to the reconciliation of Henry Simeonis. The actual oath was in Latin, but
There was just no way I was gonna
Kathryn (59:04)
Yeah.
Gina (59:04)
try and read Latin on the pod. It's I'm bad enough with live languages, let alone dead ones. Yeah. So this Latin was so 3,000 years ago. Wait, 200 1000? She is over. Sorry, Mom. She does listen to this podcast and she does know some Latin.
Kathryn (59:06)
Yeah, none of that here. Yeah. Yeah, we've moved on. Yeah, we're done. She's over. Yeah. I was gonna say my mom is gonna be so upset
she took she took Latin. That was the language she took in Catholic school, though. So yeah.
Gina (59:29)
My mom also took Latin in pretty sure it was public school.
Kathryn (59:34)
that's interesting.
Gina (59:35)
I think. I'm pretty sure she went to public school. I've never actually asked her that.
Kathryn (59:38)
Okay.
Anyway
Gina (59:41)
Anyway,
Kathryn (59:44)
choo choo choo
Gina (59:45)
So,
this Henry Simeonis guy. The mystery of who this dude was came to light in 1827 when the university decided to review all of its statutes and things like that. Because as you can imagine from a university that's been around since we think around 1000-ish AD, you have a lot of like weird bylaws and statutes over time that kind of stack on top of each other, and you wind up with this big garbled.
kind of a tax code of behavioral rules that make no real sense. So in 1827, they were gonna review all of these things and try and bring it into something more orderly. And they came across this Henry Simeonis line and they were like, hmm, who was that? And no one
Kathryn (1:00:30)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (1:00:31)
there knew. So they started digging into their archives, looking for answers, any kind of like
primary source or even like a well-cited secondary source that could say who this Henry dude was and what he had done. And instead, what they found was records from a group of Oxford people centuries ago who were in the same exact position they were in now, trying to figure out who the hell this guy was. Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (1:00:56)
my god.
Gina (1:00:58)
Apparently the earlier group, which was in like the 1650s,
Did formally propose getting rid of the We Hate Henry oath because it was kind of like a pointless oath, and by that time it had lost its meaning. Nobody knew who this guy was. And so the 1650s Oxford people were like, let's just get rid of it. And then they said, Mmm, no, we're actually gonna keep it because he must have done something really bad. So we're just gonna leave it in there.
Kathryn (1:01:24)
My God. That's wild.
Gina (1:01:28)
but the new Oxford crew, so like the 1820s crew.
Didn't give up. They kept looking, they kept looking. And finally, in 1912, a man named Reginald Lane Poole found the answer. At the time,
Kathryn (1:01:44)
My god.
Gina (1:01:44)
he was the University of Oxford's keeper of the archives. Just the coolest job title I've ever heard.
Kathryn (1:01:50)
I know.
Gina (1:01:53)
And he discovered that this Henry Simeonis guy was a rich dude from the 1200s who had murdered an Oxford student.
Kathryn (1:02:02)
my god.
Gina (1:02:02)
Mm-hmm. And apparently he had gotten off with just like a slap on the wrist. He was fined 80 pounds by the king, which does not sound like a lot. In today's money, it would be about 140,000 pounds or like close to 200,000 bucks. So it's a lot of money, but it's like pretty cheap for a murder. Like that's a very low
Kathryn (1:02:22)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (1:02:23)
amount of money to put on someone's life. And then on top of that, the king also said to Henry,
Look, dude, you should probably leave Oxford for a little while, get out of town, lie low, and then we can talk about you coming back to Oxford when I'm back from all the traveling that I'm doing. Because the king was like off gallivanting somewhere. The king came back that autumn, and by springtime, Henry was back, baby. Wasted no time, went straight back
Kathryn (1:02:50)
my god.
Gina (1:02:50)
to Oxford. He didn't give a single shit. And it seems like at some point,
Henry did get kicked out of the area, or his life was like otherwise made kind of difficult by the locals. Because 22
Kathryn (1:03:03)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (1:03:04)
years after the murder, the king issued a formal pardon for Henry, saying that Oxford should let Henry live there in peace. We strongly believe Henry paid the king in order to issue this formal pardon.
Kathryn (1:03:20)
for sure.
Gina (1:03:21)
Yes.
Unfortunately for Henry, at the time the king was in the middle of a very, very bloody civil war. And later that year, the king was actually taken prisoner. And so all of a sudden, all the stuff that the king ordered people to do didn't really carry as much weight as it used to. Which made the university feel very comfortable ignoring Henry's pardon and essentially saying, no, in fact, fuck you, Henry. We're gonna make our students swear to never forgive you. And that's exactly what they did.
For
Kathryn (1:03:53)
my god.
Gina (1:03:54)
five over five hundred years this was the case. Unfortunately, that oath has since been abolished, so students don't have to swear to this anymore. But I thought this was such a delightful, weird little piece of history that I wanted to tell you about.
Kathryn (1:04:09)
Yeah.
I wonder how they found that out. Like what record was found that they were able to piece all that together? Do you know? That's just wild to me. Yeah.
Gina (1:04:19)
Have no, and not off the top of my head. It took them forever though. And like what's wild
about how long it took them is like this is not a teeny little local public library we're talking about. This is the University of Oxford. They have archives stretching
Kathryn (1:04:32)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (1:04:33)
to the moon and back a million times, which honestly might have
Kathryn (1:04:35)
yeah.
Gina (1:04:36)
been part of the issue is just the amount of physical time it took to go through all of those records. Because this was before they had you know, like a search engine system they could use. So it probably just actually took
Kathryn (1:04:44)
That's so true. Yeah.
Gina (1:04:47)
a long time.
but no, I don't know exactly what they found that tipped them off. But it's interesting. And a lot
Kathryn (1:04:53)
That's wild.
Gina (1:04:54)
of the history about it is actually disagreed on by historians about what was happening when and like w the
Kathryn (1:05:00)
Mm.
Gina (1:05:00)
the order in which it all happened. But the version that I have shared is like the of the Oxford Library's like official version of it. So
Kathryn (1:05:11)
That's wild to me. I just I don't understand how people can keep track of any information whatsoever. So stories
Gina (1:05:19)
Same.
Kathryn (1:05:19)
like this just blow my mind. Like, how the hell do we know what people were even doing in eleven hundred whatever the hell or whatever year anything happens?
Gina (1:05:30)
I think it's so cool.
Kathryn (1:05:33)
Yeah. Anyway
Gina (1:05:35)
Yeah, well, anyway,
if you also thought this was cool, feel free to leave us a review or a rating wherever you listen to podcasts. We also have a Patreon, it's super cool, you would probably totally love it. You should check it out. Link is in the show notes.
if you have a story you would like us to read at the end of the podcast, you can feel free to send it to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com And that's it. So we can all take a deep big breath now and maybe
Kathryn (1:06:00)
Ha ha ha.
Gina (1:06:01)
a nice relaxing bubble bath and forget about McKamey Manor until we inevitably wake up at four in the morning thinking about it. Anyway.
Kathryn (1:06:10)
Yeah. We're halfway
through Outrageous Month.
Gina (1:06:13)
Hell yeah. And I do think the next episode is gonna be a little bit more it's gonna have more levity than the first two. It's about a con man as a as a sneak peek for next time. I do love a con man. So yeah. We'll see you then.
Kathryn (1:06:21)
you love a con man. Excellent. Cool.
Gina (1:06:25)
Until next time, keep it cool.
Kathryn (1:06:28)
And keep it creepy.
