76: Men In Black
Gina (00:11)
Welcome to I Scream, You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities.
My name's Gina.
Kathryn (00:19)
And I'm Kathryn
Gina (00:20)
And this month we're talking about aliens while we have ice cream that incorporates green in some way. Friendly reminder that this episode is brought to you by CloBare Money Coach. If you are ready to start investing but not sure exactly how to get started, visit GetLazyNow.com. But until then, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Kathryn (00:43)
Yay. Final day.
Do you have any thoughts on your ice cream?
Gina (00:49)
Well, okay, I see what just happened in my brain. You said final day, and then my brain started singing the ding-dong the witch is dead song from the Wizard of Oz, and I was like, why is my brain doing that? And then I realized my ice cream is green. So it was doing the witch from the Wizard of Oz is dead thing.
Kathryn (00:53)
⁓
my God.
Wait, that, man, I love a how can I explain to this person what my brain just did situations, because that sounds like such a stretch, but I totally get
That
actually happened to me recently, instead of Wizard of Oz, it was specifically Wicked, just because so much of the Wicked, not even so much, all of the Wicked marketing is pink and green. And we were at a concert in Chicago last week and there was a single moment. We went to Emperor and the Blood Incantation, where the names of the bands playing. And one of the moments, the lights, they were like a bright green and
The other lights were just your standard white-yellow lights or whatever, but it was reflecting on something and it was kind of tinted a little bit pink. And I'm sitting there at this blood incantation show and my brain just goes, ha ha, wicked.
like, well, I don't like what I was completely involuntary. But yes, so same same deal. Same deal. So anyway.
Gina (02:12)
I would love to
see ⁓ some cross-branding between Wicked and Blood Incantation. I would buy every t-shirt in that t-shirt line. We need to our ice cream,
Kathryn (02:20)
Dude, that'd be sweet. That'd be so cool.
I know, yeah, so let's remind the people, what are you eating?
Gina (02:33)
Okay, so I made matcha ice cream for mine. I've been having the same thing the whole time. And you?
Kathryn (02:35)
Mm. Mm.
Yes, this is one of the first months that I've done the same thing every single time except for that one day I forgot my sprinkles, but I did the lime strip from my rainbow sherbet bucket topped with Halloween sprinkles, but specifically black, purple, white and silver I plucked out a la alien.
Gina (03:03)
And that you beamed them up from the sprinkle jar. Well, what's your, what's your, I can't remember who went first last time.
Kathryn (03:06)
Yes, I beamed them up from the jar. Yes. I was...
I don't either, but I do have a rating. So I'll go first. Mine... I'm gonna give this a three. I love a lime... I love a lime flavor. I see I struggle with the ratings because I immediately want to be like... It's not that I like it less than the raspberry because I rated it less than the raspberry.
I actually like the lime flavoring better than the raspberry. It's just, I'm being honest with myself, I have phoned it in the last couple of months and that brought the rating down a little bit. It's time to pick it back up next month. We gotta lose the bucket of rainbow for next month. So yeah, this was a solid three. I had a good experience with it, but I can do better next month.
Gina (03:49)
Okay.
I will say you get five stars for effort with the picking out sprinkles. That sounds so tedious and I'm impressed you did it multiple times.
Kathryn (04:08)
Since you've talked so much about being impressed, I will say every now and then a single lonely little orange bead would sneak in. Because it's because the orange ones are like teensy little beads, whereas the other ones are just your standard sprinkle sprinkles. There's also little green sugar thumbs in there for Frankenstein's mouncers. So I had to pluck all those out. There were none of those in there, which retrospectively would have been appropriate because they were green. But I'm getting ahead of myself. What's your rating?
Gina (04:14)
Well that's okay. That's completely fine.
⁓
Yeah
I'm gonna give this a two and I'm sad about it. I know, I know, I didn't see it coming either. I know, I thought this was gonna be a five for me. I'm a big, matcha girl, love myself a matcha. My issues with this are thus. There's too much matcha.
Kathryn (04:44)
left field.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, yeah, I mean, yeah, as a non-Matcha-Girly, I hear you.
Gina (04:58)
It's too much. It's...
Yeah. And it's like the amount of matcha that's in here is enough that like my tongue feels a little bit powdery after I eat it. The flavor is nice and it's not like chalky, but it's just not quite the right texture. I also think it really would have benefited from either some like graham cracker thing or maybe like a melted marshmallow, like marshmallow fluff or something. Like it needed something else, I think.
Kathryn (05:07)
Ooh, yeah, that's too much.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (05:26)
So yeah, a bit of a disappointing run with the old matcha ice cream,
Kathryn (05:30)
Well, I'm sorry it was not a great experience, but next month will be better. Maybe.
Gina (05:31)
But I think...
That's okay,
yeah, that's okay. I was saving up all of the happiness for next month, because I am genuinely excited about next month's flavor, even though it's a little counterintuitive, which is a great segue. Should we, wait, you, you announce it.
Kathryn (05:46)
It is. So, yes,
it is. So, yes, in this moment, I realize that. But you know what's funny? I won't make you announce it, But remember part of the reason we did the whole flip flop, like every three months, like we switch who starts, it was because both of us were like, but if.
you we always do it this way, then I'm never gonna be able to announce the ice cream. We were like wanting to announce it, and now we're like, you do it, you do it. That was, the reason that's tabamind is because we're in one of those months, we're next month. So like theoretically based on our original structure, you would be announcing it for next one, because like it was the person who's not doing the episode was supposed to do it. And we wanted to like give each other a chance to always be the one.
Gina (06:12)
Really?
You're right.
my god.
You're right.
Kathryn (06:35)
to do it every now and then. I just think that's so funny, because now we're like, no, I don't want to. Anyway, I just had to bring that up. No, it's just pressure. when you're ready, yeah, when you're the one who's ready to settle in to listen to a story and not have to do much, and then you have to intro the whole thing, that's counterintuitive, you know? Yeah.
Gina (06:42)
Cause it's not hard to do, it's just,
It's like a little kid.
and that I have to spend an hour introducing our podcast. That is funny.
Kathryn (07:03)
Yeah, I just thought it was funny. I like had to bring that up. Anyway.
So, yes, we have a new month coming up, which means a new topic and ice cream flavor. And the topic we will be discussing is stories having to do with hotels. Yes, hotels. I love a hotel. And to accompany those stories, the flavor is chocolate.
Gina (07:07)
So.
Yes.
Kathryn (07:29)
Surprise. What is the surprise? I don't know. We don't know. It's a surprise. We'll all find out together next week, Tuesday, when we talk about hotels and eat chocolate surprise ice cream. Yay.
Gina (07:35)
You
I am excited about this.
I'm excited. And the reason I'm excited about it, despite not being a chocolate lover, is because the surprise, the open-endedness of the surprise, and the prompt means that I can find a way to incorporate chocolate in a way that I still enjoy, which is very exciting.
Kathryn (07:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Gina (07:57)
don't want to say I have news, but I've received a request to tell you something specifically on the podcast. So I'm going to tell you. I feel really bad about it. So OK, Tom and I, we were in bed last night, we were watching. I don't know if we were in bed or on the couch. Last night, we watched this thing about the new Harry Potter.
Kathryn (08:03)
my God, I love this so much.
Gina (08:20)
because it's like big, big news, especially over here where they're filming it. Like lot of people are talking about it. And we were talking about like the casting of kids and ⁓ like how you find children that you are going to cast in this thing that wind up having to do it for like, you know, over a decade, whatever. And asked me if I thought he would have made a good Harry Potter when he was a kid. And I wrote down the quote because he made me. I said,
Kathryn (08:23)
Mm-hmm.
no.
No, no.
Gina (08:49)
I said, I didn't mean it in a mean way, so I'll say it then I'll explain it. I said, you would have made a great Harry Potter, you have dark hair and a sad air about you.
Kathryn (08:53)
Okay.
Okay, wait. Hold on second. I do want you to explain for the people, Tom, I love you so much, but I don't disagree. I don't disagree.
Gina (09:10)
Aren't I right? I'm right!
okay, I'll explain.
Kathryn (09:15)
You explain yourself, I'll explain myself. We love you, Tom.
Gina (09:19)
love him so much. Sad was the wrong word. He has a complexity about him and a depth that you can see and sense relatively quickly. And that's what I meant because like the whole thing with Harry Potter is like he's a kid who's been through some shit. And if you look at any pictures of Tom when he was a child, he didn't smile in any of them. He looks like a very angry, sad, wide-eyed little dark haired boy. And I'm like, yeah, that's...
Kathryn (09:39)
Mm-hmm. Not a single one.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (09:47)
Harry Potter, like that's what he's supposed to look like, and so that's what I said, and I didn't mean to say that he had a sad air about him. I meant to say he had obvious layers.
Kathryn (09:57)
Yeah, mine's a lot more straightforward. He just he's very British. He's got a very British vibe. And like as an American, that would be how I would describe it. Like, he's one of those people where, like, if you look at him, I'm like, I could see him with a British accent. And that's the sad error about him, because I feel like there is a I don't want to say buttoned up because that's not the right word.
Gina (10:03)
He is very British.
You
Kathryn (10:26)
but it's a very like...
Gina (10:28)
stiff upper lip British thing.
Kathryn (10:29)
Yeah, like
what I'm thinking and feeling stays in here and it's none of your business. You know? Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen a picture of him smiling like with teeth.
Gina (10:35)
huh. Yeah.
They exist now. can't, you know what? I actually can't think of a picture of, I can't think of one.
Kathryn (10:46)
I don't think one has ever been posted
or sent to, or like, yeah, like any of the ones that we have from any of our trips or anything, I don't think there's a single one, unless it's a candid that he didn't know about, but I don't even, I think I might just be feeling, because I've seen him laugh. Like, I'm not sitting here saying like he doesn't have emotions, but if we're talking strictly about what has been captured and what there is evidence of.
Gina (11:00)
Yeah.
Kathryn (11:13)
I don't think that exists as far as I am concerned. Like, I have not seen this. I don't think.
Gina (11:18)
Okay,
well, I know some of his friends listen to this podcast. So if you have pictures of Tom smiling, please share them.
Kathryn (11:20)
So long.
Yeah, share them. Yeah, please share them. I'm
very curious, because I know what he looks like when he smiles. I don't want to sound like, is Tom happy? Because I know he is. But there's no photographic evidence of this in my possession, is what I'm saying.
Gina (11:44)
we
need empirical proof to validate the hypothesis. So yes.
Kathryn (11:46)
Yes, yes we do. Yeah we're very, we're very
based in fact in science.
Gina (11:54)
Yes, us, you and I, me and you, we, the science girls, together, like two strands of DNA just helixing around each other. But yes, so that was Tom's request. I am now publicly in trouble with the world for saying something mean and I'll pay my dues. I'm so sorry, everyone. I'll do better.
Kathryn (11:56)
Together.
You
Yes. Yeah. Despite the fact that I don't
think you're wrong, I'm still going to lean into the punishment of you needing to publicly admit to not being entirely kind.
Gina (12:24)
You
I'm so sorry.
Kathryn (12:31)
We love you, Tom! Anyway, speaking of science and facts, do I talk about aliens?
Gina (12:33)
We do, so much.
Yes, please.
Kathryn (12:39)
Let's talk about empirical evidence. What? Evident? Evidence, sorry, okay.
Gina (12:42)
All right. Evident.
Just one piece of evidence. I just need a single...
Kathryn (12:46)
Just the one single... The photo of Tom
smiling is on the UFO that we will be discussing today. Is Tom Roswell? I don't know. Off to a great start. Speaking of Roswell, that's not what this episode is about at all, but...
That being said, in order to fully convey today's topic, which is men in black, we do need to take it back to the Roswell incident, which we haven't discussed on this podcast. Pretty big, pretty big alien story. ⁓ But in my head, we've talked about it. I don't know why, but I checked and we haven't. So just going to do a quick summary of it.
I feel like a lot of people are familiar with Roswell and understand it as a place that people go to for alien things. But I'm just going to give a refresher on the story that led to why that is the way it is, because that directly leads into our story about the men in black.
here in the United States, Roswell, New Mexico is kind of known as the alien capital of the country. And that is because in 1947, a rancher found some strange mechanical debris on his property, which was, you guessed it, in Roswell.
And after he found it, there was this big announcement in the press.
that the US Air Force had recovered debris from a quote flying disc. And this news spread internationally immediately. Like it was this huge discovery. It was on the front page across the world in a matter of like a day or two. It spread very, very quickly. But just as quickly as it spread, it was almost immediately retracted from.
numerous newspapers, especially here in the United the initial breaking news kind of sparked something in a lot of people, those who did not
previously believe in aliens started to kind of wonder, like, could there be something else out there that we don't know about? And those who were already interested in extraterrestrial research saw this kind of as proof that aliens not only exist, but they are, actively here and trying to communicate on Earth.
Of course, the US military was like, no, we're just testing weather balloons. And that is, of course, when the retractions started coming out. But the damage had already been done. People were far too smart to fall for the weather balloon And the immediate retraction really only intensified people.
believing that it was something extraterrestrial. Like their view was like, you know, why are you worried so quickly about this? Like, why are you trying to cover it up so So to this day, Roswell is a huge tourist destination for those who want to see like where aliens first crash landed in the United States. But anyway, so why am I talking about Roswell? Good question. Like I said, this incident really spurred
a lot of excitement, ⁓ also fear and curiosity and just all these really strong and complex emotions around extraterrestrial life and research. But we now are kind of combining the military involvement in it because the Air Force was so quick to jump into the Roswell discussion that people are now like,
Okay, not just are there aliens, but if they're lying to us about this quote, weather balloon, what else could be out there? And what else could they be lying to us about? So tensions are high, particularly for those who are actively researching extraterrestrial phenomenon, which
An astounding amount of people were slash still are to this day. But one in particular was a man named Albert K. Bender. And Albert had served in the Air Force during World War, I can never say this, World War II, World War II. I just wanna say wild, wild, like, it's like, wild, wild, like, it's not a tongue twister at all.
Gina (16:59)
Yeah
World warrior.
Kathryn (17:10)
but it, I don't know, I just can't say. World War II. It's kinda like the word rural. That's kinda what my mouth feels like. World War II. Squirrel. Oh my God, I love when Scottish people say squirrel. you ever heard, have you ever seen those videos? I've heard so, oh my God, it's the best. That was my favorite. And like the confusion on their faces, like what the F? Okay.
Gina (17:16)
squirrel.
Yeah. ⁓
While we're giggling, I do have to point out that that dude's name is Birdie Bender.
Kathryn (17:36)
Bertie Bender, that's fantastic. I was gonna pause on the last name Bender. I did not make the Bert connection, but that's fantastic. Bert-K Bender.
Gina (17:45)
you
Kathryn (18:49)
But yeah, so he was extremely interested in the supernatural and all things strange and unusual. He was a sci-fi guy. And as an aside, I have a lot of asides in this episode, but as I was researching, I was really curious about which came first. Like, did he join the Air Force because he was an alien guy or?
Did he see something while he was up there or have an experience or something like that that made him interested in researching UFOs and aliens and stuff like that? I don't have an answer for that, and I know you don't either, but it's just one of those things that like, it's a chicken or the egg situation for me. I was just curious. That kind of comes up quite a bit. There's a lot of Air Force discussion in this episode. So anyway.
He's a UFO researcher and he was super invested in the Roswell incident and he did such intense research on flying saucers and kind of strange sky sighting things. And the things he found kind of tended to hold a little bit of weight with people. At least the few people that he shared it with. This wasn't like super out in the open while he was doing it.
he was in the Air Force. a lot of the instances where people see UFOs or strange things in the sky, a lot of the explanations for those things are often Air Force related, right? Like a lot of nighttime military training excuses, stuff like that.
he's familiar with military training. So if he's seeing something in the sky that doesn't match his experience in the Air Force with Air Force training...
that just adds a little bit of credibility that someone like me spotting something that has no idea what goes on in the Air Force and would never claim to know something like that. It's just different. The amount of credibility is just objectively not the same. So a lot of people believe his research into UFOs got a little too close for the government's comfort because in 1953,
It is reported that he was visited by three very intimidating men dressed in black suits and sunglasses who insisted that he cease his UFO research immediately or bad things would happen.
Yeah, dude!
Gina (21:22)
this where
it comes from? I didn't know that.
Kathryn (21:25)
Yeah, dog. yeah. Hell yeah, man. Buckle up, baby. Put on your tinfoil hat because this is Men In Black. Here comes the men in black.
Gina (21:27)
Yeah, dawg, all right.
I'm strappin' in!
I'm going to Miami. That's a Will Smith song.
Kathryn (21:41)
Yeah,
yes. So anyway, yes, this is the men in black and Albert did not fight it. You know, he just shut down his operation immediately. The fact that he was so invested in this research and dedicated to finding answers and learning what was out there. And he put so much time and energy into all these different projects only to just up and quit.
really fueled the narrative that he had been very strongly either intimidated or blackmailed or something by these men. The following year, he married his sweetheart, Betty Rose, who also I know, I know, so cute. Betty Rosepender!
Gina (22:25)
Eddie Bender?
Kathryn (22:32)
Yes, so cute. But she also claimed to have had an encounter with strange or like supernatural related beings. It is unclear to me. I'm sure it's clear to someone. I didn't have time to fall down this rabbit hole, but she claimed to be visited by someone unclear whether it was the men in black or if she had her own alien encounter or if it was something.
else entirely, I don't know. But this is to say she believed Albert and she knew that he was probably onto something as far as UFOs are concerned. And she believed that he really was visited by these three men because he was getting so close to something. So fast forward to just a few years later in 1956, a man named
Gray Barker published a book titled, They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers. Very straightforward. And in this book, Gray details the first ever accounts of flying saucer sightings, the first of which happened in 1947, the same year as the Roswell incident, potentially related.
in addition to the UFO sightings, Grey also shares Albert's personal account with the Men in Black, and this is the first time that we see any story about the Men in Black in print, and Albert's is not the only they're not explicitly referred to as Men in Black in this book, but
That is who they are, who they would become, or whatever. But the whole book is basically about people who learned too much and the government got involved, So after this book is published, numerous people come forward to say, hey, I am also a UFO research person, and I had a very similar experience with these mysterious men. And because of all these new accounts,
coming out of the woodwork, the physical descriptions of these men become more detailed at this point. And we start getting a look at who they actually might be. ⁓ So they were described as having a very serious demeanor, which we've already kind of discussed with Albert. And they spoke in a very like monotone, no-nonsense manner. And the suits they were wearing seemed kind of outdated. Like they'd been doing this for a very long time.
And they were always in dark suits. You know, I'm imagining kind of like a vintage secret service guy, very like top secret. You know, we don't have time for aesthetics. We're just concerned with the destruction of all humankind, but we still need to look official kind of situation. You know, the type.
Gina (25:26)
I wonder what cargo shorts you buy to go with that aesthetic.
Kathryn (25:38)
So yeah, this is where the image of like, you know, the guy with the glasses and you know, very secret service-y, but like alien related.
So then in October of 1967, a supernatural researcher named John Keele wrote an article for Saga Magazine in which he officially coined the phrase, Men in Black. Throughout the article, he had referred to them as mystery men or quote agents, like literally agents in quotation marks. But then he also
toward like the middle of the article refers to them as Men in Black, capital M, capital B. And this is when this group of mysterious UFO men officially have their name. And in this article, it's titled Agents of Terror, by the way, he starts off with this story of an anonymous photographer who was out one night in California capturing photos when he was quote,
stunned to see a huge unearthly metallic disk hovering over him. And this guy claimed to have captured several photos of it before it basically zipped straight upward and just vanished right into the sky. So he raced home to his dark room to develop this film. And he was absolutely delighted to find that he had actually captured this thing. And like there were actual real photos.
of it. So he develops a film, hangs them up to dry, and then he leaves them to process. But when he comes back, everything is gone. The developed photos, the negatives, the film that had been in his camera, like everything was just taken. So he calls a friend who happens to be a scientist and amateur ufologist, and he confides in this friend and tries to like figure out what could have happened because he was so proud of like
you know, having captured this evidence. And that's when his friend him that there have been all of these stories happening all over the place to a lot of people, similar situation, and it's suspected to be the men in black. So not every person who quote had an encounter with the men in black even saw them or interacted with them. The story was they just like, no.
Somehow when someone has an encounter, it's almost like the whole big brother situation. Like they're always watching and the moment you don't even have to tell anyone, it's just the moment you have an interaction, they show up, take care of business, shut it down. Like, bing, bang, boom, it's taken care of. This was never here. It was never seen. You never got any evidence, whatever. So this is all being recounted in this article and
It doesn't outright blame the men in black. It kind of just alludes to the fact that they could have been responsible, or at least the theory is the men in black were responsible for things like this.
And at this point, we still do not know exactly who these men in black are or who sent them. Are they part of the government or are they just like alien hunting guys or just any old random person trying to squash evidence? But a lot of people.
suggests that it has to do specifically with the Air Force. So the main theory proposed in this article specifically is the fact that there is like some specific branch or whatever of the U.S. Air Force that, you know, this is like a team that is put together who does know about the aliens, but they are tasked with making sure that no one else does ever.
One of the reasons that this theory was like backed up quite a bit is there was still a question of, they trying to guard these UFOs?
because of aliens or is it because there are some other government conspiracy going on? Like, does it have nothing to do with UFOs whatsoever?
You know, like this is in the 60s. A lot of shit was going on that the government was like, you know, worried about citizens were all paranoid, etc, etc. if that is the case, kind of feel like they should have just left people alone, because if people were researching and like stumbling upon pictures of these
weapons or, you know, whatever aircraft things that they were building and they thought they were aliens, I feel like that would have been a good thing. The government could have just been like, yeah, they're aliens, not a secret weapon that we're going to use to like bomb a bunch of people. You know what I mean? So I feel like that's almost like a vote for aliens as far as I'm concerned.
Gina (30:32)
Yeah.
That makes sense to me. think the only thing I can think of is like maybe they didn't want words spreading crazy fast so that everyone was starting to look into these supposed aliens and then it turns out that yeah, maybe. But I hear what you're saying because it is like a throw them off the scent kind of thing.
Kathryn (30:39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Other people more important. Yeah, that's so true. That's a good point.
Yeah. That's it.
Yeah. I also just really love the idea that each military branch having a top secret like monster unit, like does the Navy have a team that knows about all the sea monsters?
Gina (31:13)
I'm gonna ask my parents. They'll tell me. They're retired now. They don't have any obligation to our government anymore.
Kathryn (31:15)
Mm-hmm. They can tell you. Your
mom would tell you, I know that for a fact. Yeah. Yeah, she would tell you in a way that wasn't telling you. Do you know what I mean?
Gina (31:21)
My mom would for sure tell me. I'm gonna ask my
You know what though,
my mom, I feel like I'm gonna ask her and she's gonna say something like, we're not allowed to talk about that. And that'll just be the end of the story. Yeah. I'm gonna try. I'll try and I'll let you know what she says.
Kathryn (31:33)
That'll be it forever. That's a deathbed discussion, Gina. Mind your manners. Yeah,
yeah, please try. that, cause what else, cause so yeah, Navy is water, monsters, Air Force is aliens. That makes sense. Army is like, what's their deal? Land?
Gina (31:53)
Yeah, so like cryptids I guess. Yeah, and then what? What are the other ones?
Kathryn (31:54)
Yeah, Bigfoot, they know about Bigfoot. Yeah, that just makes sense to me.
So anyway, this article that this Kiel guy wrote basically breaks down all of these strange things that Air Force was doing and suggests that it was because they were hell bent on quieting anyone who got too close to finding out stuff they didn't want people to find out. And I'll have a copy of the article linked in the show notes for anyone who wants to take a look. It is quite long. It's, you know, worth a read. And...
One thing that I did want to bring up, this doesn't necessarily have to do with Men in Black, but I thought it was interesting. As a side note, this John Keele, the one who wrote the article, after his initial research, he actually did end up concluding that he did not believe that extraterrestrials exist, which was pretty notable because that's what he did. Like he was involved in a lot of high strange cases, but he instead believed that people were
seeing things that they either wanted to see or basing their experiences off of what other people were experiencing. So he was essentially a skeptic who gave the research what I'm going to call a fair shot, but ended up concluding he did not have enough evidence to support the fact that extraterrestrial beings were real. ⁓
I think it's a fair shot specifically because of what I said earlier, there was so much going on in the 60s, especially a lot of fear around like the memory of World War II, Cold War, we're moving into like Vietnam era, like people are learning that they can't totally trust their government. There was just like a lot of emotional things happening that could kind of lead people to being.
not totally trustworthy of their government, which I have no opinion on whatsoever. But yeah, all of this is to say there was so much going on in like the 60s and 70s that I do think that it's fair to be skeptical of identifying that maybe this government agency could be, you know, fucking with people for any number of things beyond just aliens, you know? So that was kind of the conclusion that he came to.
But like I said, he did a lot of research into a lot of other high strange cases. There's some connection between Men in Black and Mothman. I don't know what that is. That was a whole other rabbit hole that I didn't have time to go down, but he made that connection. He looked into that. Could that have been a strange alien situation in Men in Black or whatever? There's a whole thing there that I highly recommend people looking into. Anyway, despite the fact that there was
Gina (34:16)
Wow.
Kathryn (34:35)
research and people looking into the men in black and, you know, debating whether or not this was a thing that was really happening, whether or not it, you know, these men existed at all, let alone were part of the government. There was a lot of discourse on that. Regardless of that, the rumors of the men in black did persist and the prevalence of these stories just continued to grow. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who had an experience with the men in black.
and then moving into the 70s and 80s, the stories kind of started to change quite a bit from genuine accounts or claims of, you know, weird government agents trying to cover up encounters to something even weirder. Witnesses started suggesting that they could potentially be something non-human. Like they're not even agents at all. They are.
like not trying to cover up an entity, but they are themselves an entity. Yeah. I thought you were going to like that. Yes. Yeah. It kind of feels like a black eyed kid situation a little bit. Like not exactly, but you know, these guys show up out of nowhere, you know, intimidate you and then bounce never to be seen again. One of the reasons people
Gina (35:34)
I love that theory. That's excellent.
Yeah.
Kathryn (35:55)
Not even one of the reasons, but the reason people started to kind of go in this direction with the theories is the descriptions of these men kind of started to change. They were described as having very robotic movements and kind of strange speech patterns. This is why it kind of reminds me of the Black Eyed Kids, because it's like they were human, but not human, you know, and just kind of bizarre interactions. Like one example is not knowing very basic human information that the average
Gina (36:15)
Yeah.
Kathryn (36:24)
person would be able to understand or know. There's one example of this, which is about a woman who encountered the men in black. I don't know the full story or why they showed up or like, was she a UFO researcher or knew someone who was? I don't know the beginning of the story, but it is said that when they showed up, it was around like breakfast time and she was either making toast or had.
breakfast made or something, but she offered them some. She gave them some toast to have. And when she gave one of them a jar of jam so that he could put it on the toast, instead of spreading on the bread, he attempted to drink it like a beverage. Yeah, like he didn't know what to do with this weird gloppy, gloopy stuff, ⁓ which is a very alien thing to do.
Gina (37:05)
Hell yeah.
Kathryn (37:14)
Right? Like, I think this is what the humans do with glass things at the table. I will drink it. You know what I mean?
Gina (37:20)
Okay,
you know what? I will say, if it was like a homemade jam, that can be much gloopier than like a normal jam, to the point where it is kind of drinkable. So maybe it was that.
Kathryn (37:33)
But like, would a human being think that they could drink a jar of jant- like, I see what you're saying.
Gina (37:38)
Yeah. But
no.
Kathryn (37:42)
one thing that I like about this theory is what if it's both? What if they really are military or government personnel tasked with keeping these alien or whatever you want to call them a secret, but what if they're not US government personnel? What if they are extraterrestrial government personnel?
and someone sees a saucer and they're like, ⁓ they saw us, bloop. You forget, blah, blah. And then they hop back on the ship or whatever and fuck off to wherever they came from.
Gina (38:13)
Thanks.
do like that idea. I do have an immediate gut reaction of like, ugh, space feds, you know? The space fuzz.
Kathryn (38:28)
Yeah, I don't know.
I wonder if like, cause I guess we wouldn't be part of their jurisdiction. Unless they're galactic. It's like, you know.
Gina (38:42)
Keep going.
Kathryn (38:47)
But you must consider someone in charge of the whole galaxy. But you know what I'm saying, like, it's okay for a federal, like, I am part of, like, the federal agent's jurisdiction, even though they're all the way in DC or whatever, you know? So it's like if you've got some galactic agent, we would be part of that jurisdiction.
Gina (39:08)
You know what I'm picturing right now? ⁓ That scene from Lilo and Stitch where Stitch is like, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah.
Kathryn (39:09)
Hmm.
Of course. Who? Okay, so
yes, animation for that guy is based on the Men in Black. That's like, yes, that's the vibe. Yes. I don't remember. Bubbles, it's Bubbles, I think. Is it Bubbles? Yeah.
Gina (39:21)
Really? What was his name? Like agent bubbles or officer bubbles or something like that?
Yeah, I'm positive
that it's bubbles, but I can't remember if it was like agent or detective or officer, whatever. It was bubbles. That's fun. That is fun.
Kathryn (39:34)
maybe detect, I don't know, was something, yeah.
He's based on men in black, yeah. ⁓
Gina (39:40)
Okay, I dig that.
Kathryn (39:42)
So this, mean, honestly, this is the general story of Men in Black up to like the 80s-ish. They're considered very dangerous men, if men at all, and they will allegedly stop at nothing to silence people who get too close to the quote unquote truth. As.
We discussed in the Valiant Thor episode, know our guy Frank Strange is from that episode, had numerous encounters with he's not the only one who was put in dangerous situations in the name of being silenced. The stories that came out around this time were super sinister. mean, from the beginning, they were always kind of rooted in blackmail, intimidation, and they kind of started to grow more and more dangerous as time went on.
That is, of course, until the year 1997 when one of my mother's favorite movies of the 1990s was released, none other than Men in Black, starring Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones. So this movie and subsequent franchise and animated series absolutely transformed the public opinion and understanding of Men in Black. And that is to say there really wasn't much
of a public opinion or understanding on them really at all. Pretty much the whole like non-tinfoil hat wearing normie crowd really didn't know about this story. Most people when that movie came out had no idea that it was based on quote unquote a true story or collection of stories or legends or whatever you want to call them at this point. Because remember the first time
a story about men in black ever came out back in the 50s. It was a true story as far as Albert was concerned. So like we're talking half a century here of claims that this really exists. But at this point, it kind of was urban legend material, even though for so long it was considered at least for one part of, you know, one specific demographic it was thought of as a fully true story.
So naturally the energy around, the concept of the men in black shifted in the nineties. It was no longer the sinister, scary thing. It was a lot more humorous, far less, you know, serious. And people just generally didn't think of it as reality at all. was just a movie, you know. That is of course, until present day, we now have short form storytelling by way of the interwebs and social media, which
you know, people are starting to kind of swing back to like, this is real and, I've had a real encounter, et cetera, et cetera. But it's no longer just the weirdos or alien people talking about it. It's kind of woven throughout every demographic. So we've kind of come full circle.
And one of the biggest places where this happens and stories are shared is, of course, our girl Reddit. cannot stress, I found so many stories on Reddit.
Gina (42:52)
⁓
Kathryn (42:52)
about personal
Gina (42:52)
okay.
Kathryn (42:53)
encounters with men. Like it got to the point where I had to, every single time I found one, like a good one and a detailed one, I had to check to see like, what are the rules of this subreddit? Like, is fictional storytelling allowed? Like, is this real? Is this not? like, some of them were, some of them were works of fiction, but so many are genuine claims of encounters with men in black that I am like astounded. It's like a...
Gina (43:18)
Okay.
Kathryn (43:20)
I don't know, maybe I'm being dramatic, but I was not expecting so many. I feel like I've been in ghost story world my whole life. I've not experienced this like UFO corner of this like encounter portion of the internet. I don't know, I was floored by how many I found. But I am gonna share one person's story. was a comment left in the UFO subreddit.
on a post that was asking, has anyone here actually had their own personal encounter? like, I mean, there were so, so, so, so many, but I'm gonna share this one. It is from user Decrim Iowa. I don't know how to pronounce that, but I think that's what it is. Anyway, okay. It says, it's not the classic guys in suits type story, but I did have an experience with a man in black clothing right after a UFO experience.
While house sitting for a friend in August, 2013 in a suburb of Minneapolis, I had a close encounter slash missing time experience that is too long and complicated to go into in detail here. The gist of the story is this. I saw some orbs in the sky, very similar to the ones that were seen in the wave of sightings on the East Coast last fall and winter. And then I saw a tic-tac-toe shaped cloud.
I lost consciousness for about an hour. I regained consciousness on my knees near where I had seen the strange cloud a few hundred feet away from where I had been sitting. Shortly after all that happened, a friend came over to the house because we had been planning to grill and then go to a concert.
And he found me in a state of agitation, ranting about orbs and aliens and clouds and missing time. He was understandably worried. The doorbell rang and we both went to answer it as we had been expecting someone from the utilities company to come and check the meters prior to the heat and water starting. other friend had just purchased the house. So they were like there as...
house things were getting set up or whatever. I answered the door first and immediately noticed some weird stuff about the guy standing in front of me. For starters, he was dressed in what looked like military slash SWAT team gear, all black without insignia, wraparound sunglasses,
With what looked like a bulletproof vest with a walkie talkie flashlight, et cetera, in all the pockets. A military style baseball cap, no utility company logos or anything. He didn't ask us anything about the utilities, but instead asked me how I was feeling and asked my friend how long he had been at the house and if he had just arrived. My friend...
who was skeptical of the UFO stuff, but a bit worried about me in my agitated slash ranting state, was even a little weirded out by this, asking him, you are here for the utilities, right? Another weird thing, he wasn't driving a utility truck. He was driving what appeared to be a customized pickup truck, brand new and shiny, no logos, no ladder or toolboxes in the bed, all black and blacked out windows.
The truck was parked in a very strange way, perpendicular to the driveway, blocking my friend and I in with very bright headlights on, despite the fact that it was early afternoon. We confirmed that this weird SWAT guy was indeed here for the utilities as planned, and he said he would meet us around back where the meter was located. So my friend and I walked to the back of the house. It would have only taken us about 10, maybe 20 seconds max from leaving the guy.
at the front door to coming out into the backyard. By the time we got out there, the guy in black wasn't there. We looked around the corner. He was completely gone. His huge pickup truck, gone. No sign of it on the street. We hadn't heard any engine noises from it turning on or driving away. No sign of anything at all. This weird guy had somehow disappeared in the 10 seconds we walked through the house. My friend, who was skeptical, had to admit it was weird.
And of course, I was immediately ranting about the men in black, how they're going to get me, ruin my life, target me as an abductee, make me into a crazy person with brain lasers and harassment, et cetera. Luckily, none of that happened. And now I am very mentally healthy and stable and well-adjusted, which is why I spend my free time making long posts on conspiracy subreddits. Obsessed. So that's the end of the story.
Gina (47:38)
Hmm.
The self-awareness is funny. ⁓
Ooh, I'm wondering if that was just someone casing the place to try and rob it, like.
Kathryn (47:54)
You
Honestly, like that was kind
of my... So the weird part is he specifically mentioned like the military like SWAT uniform or whatever. I feel like if someone was casing the place, that is like objectively a notable... Like if anything happened, someone would be like, yeah, someone straight up lied about being a utilities guy. And I could tell because they were dressed in like...
Gina (48:06)
Yeah.
you would remember.
Yeah.
Kathryn (48:24)
government official gear, you know what I mean? Like if he was casing the place he would have dressed like a utilities guy.
Gina (48:30)
I also, I do love the idea that there's been like an outfit or a uniform change amongst the men in black. Love the glow up.
Kathryn (48:38)
obsessed, honestly. Well,
love the glow up and especially around 2013 that was so deeply in like the bro era and like he mentioned like the wraparound sunglasses and stuff. like, yeah, I feel like men in black would do that. Like they're on to us. We need to stop dressing in outdated clothing.
Gina (48:49)
swag. Yes, yeah.
Kathryn (48:59)
Salsamine in black.
Gina (49:01)
Okay. I, ⁓ yeah. All right. I really want to watch the movie now, desperately actually.
Kathryn (49:08)
I know me too, that song's been stuck in my head. Like every time I go into research I'm like, here come the many, many...
Gina (49:10)
Haha.
Kathryn (49:18)
singing myself to sleep with that every night.
Gina (49:20)
Sweet sweet lullaby. Fascinating. Alright, I had never thought about the fact that maybe they were aliens before. I love that idea.
Kathryn (49:23)
Yes.
I
love that. I love the idea of, this galactic agent or whatever the hell.
Gina (49:34)
That makes a lot more sense to me than the stereotype of men in black I have in my head. Because you make such a good point about why would they be drawing so much attention to something they ostensibly don't want people to talk about. Okay, okay.
Kathryn (49:45)
Yeah.
Which although, mean, it's one
of those things where I'm like, I do love how we think it's a lot more realistic that an alien government official would try to silence someone versus just a regular human one. Like, I don't know. It feels like there's something there. Don't ask me to explain the logic though, because I don't know.
Gina (49:58)
Woo!
Listen,
one side of the coin is fun, the other side is sad. So we'll pick the fun side.
Kathryn (50:12)
Thank you, exactly!
You know what I've learned about myself, which I kind of love? I'm a lot more into government conspiracy theories than I thought I was. I know me too, who knew?
Gina (50:23)
I'd love that journey for you.
Kathryn (50:28)
No clue. Anyway, I'll unpack that later. Do you perhaps have something very spooky on me? What? On me? I meant for me. Sorry. Do you have any weird blackmail that you can share with our friends?
Gina (50:37)
I'm about to, okay yeah.
All right, I do have something for you. We're gonna play a little game.
Kathryn (50:46)
Yes! I love games!
Gina (50:49)
So do you remember a while ago we were talking about the card game medium?
Kathryn (50:54)
God, I think about this all the time. I think about playing this with you all the time. ⁓ my God, stop, really? Wait, sorry, I'm gonna calm down. Okay. I'm so scared. Okay. Sure.
Gina (50:58)
We're gonna play it. Okay, so here's how it works. Yes. So we're not gonna play the actual card game because I don't have the card game, but I definitely want
to get it and play it with you formally one day. ⁓ Instead, we're gonna play just like a verbal version of it. So the way it works is I have compiled a list of 100-ish words. I kinda lost count. There's around 100 words. ⁓ Well, I used a word generator to
Kathryn (51:10)
Okay, we will.
Okay.
my god. Okay.
Gina (51:27)
me so it's it didn't take very long. I hand carved 100 words into clay tablets ⁓ and we're both gonna pick a random word. I actually built a random word generator for us in a spreadsheet that will pick from the words that I put in there because they're all like spooky words or words that have related to episodes that we've done or something like that. So we both pick a word and
Kathryn (51:28)
Okay, wow, okay. You should not have told me that. I was just so impressed with you. Not that I'm not impressed with you, but.
Okay.
Yeah.
Gina (51:54)
We tell each other what those words are, it's not a secret. And then on the count of three, we say a word that we think connects those two words. So for example, if I picked the word ocean and you picked the word salt, I might say water, for example.
Kathryn (52:15)
I was like, my God, nothing connects
us two. I'm so scared of this game. I'm gonna be so bad at this game.
Gina (52:20)
there's
salt in like ocean water but you could also pick like you know fish for example because of salt water fish so well there we go yeah so if if I said ⁓ what did I say water and you say fish we would have to do it again because we didn't say the same word but instead this time we would try and pick a word that connects fish and water
Kathryn (52:24)
Yeah, yeah.
That's the word that popped into my head!
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Gina (52:45)
You see what I mean? So like every, like we keep going and going until we eventually, hopefully say the same word. Yes.
Kathryn (52:45)
⁓ I do.
say the same word. Okay, I
need a minute to digest because I'm suddenly very scared because I'm gonna way overthink this.
Gina (52:56)
No worries.
I recognize that we are working in an audio-based medium right now, which means saying words at the same time might be difficult for people listening who can't tell what we're saying. So we could write down what our words are instead and then read them to each other.
Kathryn (53:01)
Mm-hmm.
⁓
Maybe.
Gina (53:15)
And that would give
us a little bit more time instead of being like one, two, three word. Yeah. Okay. Let's do that.
Kathryn (53:18)
That feels a little less scary. Yeah, that feels a little less scary to me.
Okay.
I'm just like trying to, yeah, I'm trying to calm down because I'm still overthinking everything. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I just like, see in my head, I'm like, this is a friendship test.
Gina (53:31)
We can take as long as we want. We are in no rush with this.
This is not
a friendship. Okay, actually, if you want to know, this might make you feel better. One of the first games that Tom and I ever played together was this game. And it took us like 20 tries to get to the same word. And I actually got a little bit angry and competitive about it. And it's a miracle that he still wanted to be with me. I've grown, but I've already had that experience. And I now realize that's not how you play games. And so we're gonna...
Kathryn (53:46)
Mm-hmm.
Excellent, okay.
That's why I'm scared, Gina.
you
Gina (54:06)
You
Okay, I got Baba Yaga. What'd you get?
Kathryn (54:10)
Jesus, okay.
I got serial killer.
Gina (54:15)
a Yaga and Serial Killer. Okay, okay. gosh. All right.
Are you ready? Do you have your thing? What did you put? Do want me to go first?
Kathryn (54:19)
Yes.
⁓ You can go first.
Gina (54:23)
I put the word fear.
Kathryn (54:25)
I put the word fire
Gina (54:28)
Okay. Ooh.
Okay, so now we need to think of words that connect fear and fire. I'm ready to.
Kathryn (54:33)
I'm ready.
Gina (54:35)
I put burning.
Kathryn (54:37)
I put death.
Gina (54:39)
okay, well.
Kathryn (54:40)
I just skipped past all that.
Gina (54:44)
Alright, so burning.
Kathryn (54:47)
burning in death.
Gina (54:49)
and death. Okay, I have one.
Kathryn (54:52)
Okay,
⁓ are we allowed to repeat words? Okay.
Gina (54:58)
No, you are not allowed to repeat words.
I think that is a rule.
Unless you want to repeat words.
Kathryn (55:01)
burning and death?
I mean, okay, I guess I have one. I'm so scared. I don't know if I, I don't know. Okay, I'm overthinking this.
Gina (55:05)
I'm gonna try and send it to you.
Alright, what did you put?
Kathryn (55:14)
Ash.
Gina (55:16)
I put pain.
Kathryn (55:17)
I'm going like chronological. I'm like, I'm like my next word is gonna be ghost like and that has nothing to do with like
Gina (55:24)
Alright, well, let's see if we get the same one.
Kathryn (55:33)
Now I'm rethinking it because I'm thinking I'm still thinking of like the first two and I know that that's not what you're supposed to be doing but like that's my brain is just going like what happens next Wait, so what was yours?
Gina (55:42)
Decomposition. Pain. ⁓
Pain and ash.
Kathryn (55:47)
pain and ash.
And you're sure you can't repeat words?
Gina (55:53)
Maybe we
can repeat words this one time.
Kathryn (55:56)
Okay, I'm gonna repeat the word. So mine is fire.
Gina (56:02)
What did you put?
Kathryn (56:18)
Okay. All right, I have one last word before I give up to connect fire and burning. I have one last word that I'll share.
Gina (56:23)
Well...
Okay, what is it burning and fire? Okay.
Me too.
Kathryn (56:33)
Alright, I did candle for this one.
Gina (56:36)
Did flame.
Kathryn (56:37)
Pfft!
Gina (56:43)
But you know what? Here's the moral of the story. We may not have said the same words, but we said very complimentary words. ⁓
Kathryn (56:44)
Bye.
We did, I mean,
emotionally, all of those words were basically the same from start to finish. We got very close right off the bat.
Gina (56:58)
Yes. And so really we won.
We did. We did. And to be fair, I don't know like what words the actual game medium uses. I might've accidentally put a bunch of really tricky words into a list. So we were probably playing this on like Olympic level, which is very impressive. I think we did a great job.
Kathryn (57:10)
⁓ yeah.
I think we did such a good job. was
the most impressive version of that game I personally have ever experienced.
Gina (57:27)
Well, yes, that is your Oscar on top for the day. Enjoy. No problem. We do also occasionally read out stories on our Oscar on top. So if you have a story you would like to hear at the end of the episode, feel free to send it to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. Also, just a quick reminder, we have a Patreon. It's super fun. You would totally love it. You should click the link in our show notes and check it out. But until next time, little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (57:29)
I love that. Thank you.
and keep it creepy.
