66: Marie Laveau

Gina (00:15)

everyone and welcome to Ice Cream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries and paranormal perplexities. My name's Gina.

Kathryn (00:23)

And I'm Kathryn

Gina (00:24)

And this month we're talking about New Orleans while we combine some coffee and bourbon into an ice creamy treaty concoction. Or maybe not. guess we'll talk about that when we get to it because I still... ⁓ It's been a month, you know? Anyway.

Kathryn (00:38)

was gonna say, do do do.

We're doing

our best is what we're doing, okay?

Gina (00:46)

We are doing our best, our whole best and a half. If you are new here, hello, so happy to have you. Just a heads up, we do post some really cool stuff on our Patreon Link is in the show notes. But if not, no worries.

If you leave us a review or a rating wherever you listen to podcasts and send us a screenshot to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com with your mailing address, we will send you a lovely I Scream You Scream sticker. So lots of ways to get involved in the screamy community. until then grab a spoon and let's dig in.

Kathryn (01:22)

I have to real quick say I'm really self-conscious about coughing right now because I was on the phone with my mom a few days ago and she was like, hey, how are you feeling? I was like, I'm fine. Why? Like, what's up? She was like, I don't know. You were coughing a lot in your episode last week, so I just wanted to make sure you were okay.

because they watch us on YouTube, my parents watch us on YouTube. And I always mute myself, but she was like, yeah, I noticed you were doing a lot of coughing. I was wondering if you were sick. I was like, ⁓ God, so now I'm scared. I'm like very, my brain is like, don't cough, don't cough. But I will be coughing just cause I have asthma. So sorry if it's distracting, but I was just like, what are you talking about? How'd you know? I did have a little bit of a cold when we recorded whatever episode she was watching.

Gina (01:55)

my gosh.

That's so sweet.

Mm.

Kathryn (02:11)

But yeah, just had to address that real quick in case I'm like gasping for breath. It's just because I'm like scared I might need to cough and it's all in my head.

Gina (02:19)

How lovely though. That's so nice. I feel so cared for.

Kathryn (02:23)

I I felt like she,

I kind of felt a little bit spied on. Because like, I recognize that people do watch us on the YouTube, but I just, don't know, no one ever like talks to me about it. ⁓ So yeah, I just wanted to address that. Hi mom, ⁓ and dad,

Gina (02:43)

You

Yeah, I keep waiting for the day that I go into work or something and someone is like, you popped up on my YouTube feed or like, you know, Instagram or something like that. And it's going to be such an awkward day.

Kathryn (02:54)

my God, that is going to be awkward. It's very awkward once your coworkers know about your podcast. I can attest. Hi Jason, by the way. Did I tell you what he said to me at work the other day? He came in all flustered one day. This was like a week ago. He was like, I don't know what he was flustered about, but he came in all flustered and he saw me and was like alarmed to see me. And I was like, what is happening? He was like, it's just so weird.

Gina (03:02)

Hey Jason.

No.

Kathryn (03:24)

I was just listening to you in my car on the way here and then I come in and here's your face and I was like both of those things are your fault. Like you did both of those things. You chose to listen to my podcast and you scheduled me to be here today. So like I don't know what you want me to do for you on this. Yeah.

Gina (03:30)

You

The other day, Tom and I were hanging out with some friends who, one of them listens to the podcast, and because he listens to it, I made some joke about emailing me at iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com and he finished the sentence for me. I was like, email me at, and he was like, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com.

Kathryn (03:58)

I scream you some bread at gmail.com

Gina (04:02)

Like, okay, I guess we do say it enough, huh?

Kathryn (04:05)

That was funny. If you think we talked too much about emailing, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com let us know.

Gina (04:12)

And then we'll follow up to your email and then you can email us back at iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com The microphone is really conveniently placed so you can't tell that I got ice cream all over my shirt. Just so you know. Yeah, you make a good point. I don't know what you're talking about.

Kathryn (04:27)

Other than the fact that you're sitting there scrubbing it away.

I real quick have to say I did just completely mess up the flavor for this month and I just give up. was really excited because I was looking for a bourbon whiskey type ice cream and Phil was helping me out. He did look at a couple local places that likely would have had it. No one did and I got really excited because in my head I found it at the grocery store. I thought I found a bourbon pecan ice cream. I was so excited.

And then I realized I read it wrong and it's just plain old butter pecan. So I give up on the bourbon this month. I'm just eating butter pecan with a cup of coffee. Sorry, I'll do better next month. That's all I have to say on that.

Gina (05:16)

No, you don't have to

do better. I think at this point it's become a symbolic bourbon rather than a physical manifestation of bourbon, you know.

Kathryn (05:22)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

the energy is bourbon.

Gina (05:27)

Yeah, the energy. So coffee flavored ice cream, bourbon flavored energy. Except for also like butter pecan flavored ice cream works too.

Kathryn (05:31)

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Gina (05:37)

Yeah. I don't have bourbon either. I'm still drinking stroop waffle liqueur. No, no, no. Although weirdly, the last, so this episode and the last one, the two episodes where I could have drank bourbon, well, I guess I can whenever I want, but you know, where it would have made thematic sense. I actually want to drink like bourbon with a little bit of ice in. I just want to drink straight bourbon. I never want to, but I've been thinking about it now I really want to.

Kathryn (05:39)

was gonna say you don't either too, right? Okay, good.

Yeah.

I love that for you. That's a good, that's, that is a thing that is craved in the winter for me. That's like a very, like, dead of winter, dead inside. Pour some bourbon on some ice.

Gina (06:05)

good. ⁓

Hmm.

Ooh, that's basically a rhyme. Bars. my God, beautiful.

Kathryn (06:22)

my god, did I just write a poem?

iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com

Am I a poet?

Gina (06:33)

I love that bit so much. Not sorry at all. I just wanted to tell you.

Kathryn (06:37)

It's a new bit now, sorry. Not sorry, though.

I want

you to tell me this thing that you have to tell me.

Gina (06:47)

So, and I have started exploring potential wedding venues and I found one that I cannot stop thinking about and I wanted...

Kathryn (07:02)

I'm scared, what is it?

Gina (07:04)

It's called

It's so funny. The Explosion Museum of Naval Firepower.

Kathryn (07:20)

You know what? Of course it is. Why would it not be?

Gina (07:23)

Literally,

I was minding my own business on one of those like wedding planning apps where you can scroll through like a bunch of providers and suppliers or whatever and I was in the venue section and there it was, the explosion museum of naval firepower and I just feel like I'm sold on it. How hilarious would that be?

Kathryn (07:42)

Where is it?

Gina (07:43)

It's in England, it's like within an hour or two drive from me.

Kathryn (07:47)

It's close by, okay.

I mean.

Gina (07:50)

picture

walking down the aisle at the explosion museum.

Kathryn (07:53)

I can picture

you walking down the aisle. Explosion. Are you going to have explosives? I'm just imagining you walking down the aisle like as they do in an action movie when they're slow motion walking away from a mushroom cloud of fire. That's how I imagine you walking down the aisle.

Gina (08:03)

Of course I am.

Yes!

That's better than what I was picturing because my first thought was, yeah, instead of a bouquet I'll have grenades. But I don't think that would work because then they would just explode in my hands.

Kathryn (08:29)

Yeah, you know, that is the problem with grenade bouquets.

Gina (08:33)

You know, they don't talk about this when you're planning a wedding. The importance of appropriately timed explosive devices.

There's no etiquette for this.

Kathryn (08:45)

Wow, I didn't realize how many missed opportunities there were when I got married.

Gina (08:51)

could have been so much more violent.

Kathryn (08:54)

it really could have been. Honestly, I was proud of myself at how nonviolent my wedding celebrations were. They could have been worse. There's still, there's still a chance for you though.

Gina (09:00)

It was very beautiful.

well, I'll endeavor to... How do you... How would you... No, I can't look into hiring explosives for my wedding. No, that's not the day we're having. We're gonna have a beautiful day with one grenade. Anyway,

Kathryn (09:21)

⁓ I'll be...

Gina (09:25)

I sure could go for a story.

Kathryn (09:27)

That's a

All right, should we get into it?

Gina (09:28)

Okay,

I would love to get in.

Kathryn (09:32)

Perfect. I've been dying to talk about this and it is going to be kind of an abridged version of everything I want to talk about because I could talk about this story forever. Because today we're going to be talking about the infamous Marie Laveau, New Orleans voodoo queen.

She's definitely one of those people has kind of their own version of her story, and everyone has heard of her in some capacity in some way. Not everything that we've heard is true. And so I was trying to decide which direction I wanted to...

Gina (09:51)

You

Kathryn (10:12)

to take the episode if I wanted to talk about more of the magical, mystical, mythological, legendary side of things, or if I wanted to go more biographical. kind of accidentally did both because I was aiming to do the more biographical side of things with the understanding that there is a lot we don't know for sure about her. So even though we're trying to go a little more biographical with this one, there are still things

that are kind of just part of the legend and myth of Marie Laveau.

Marie was born in the French Quarter in 1801 and at the time New Orleans was in kind of a weird transitional limbo state when she was born because while it was still under Spanish colonial rule, it was legally a French territory per the treaty that was agreed upon about a year prior.

Marie's mother was a free woman of color. So Marie was not born into slavery.

And New Orleans at the time had a pretty large population of free people of color. And that was mostly due to a Spanish colonial law that allowed enslaved people to essentially save up money and purchase their own freedom after a certain amount of time. So the population

of color in New Orleans specifically was much higher than the rest of the South. she was born to a free mother and her mother's name was Marguerite Dar-Kintel. That's French and probably not how you really say it, so sorry. ⁓ And she was of African, European and Native American ancestry. So right off the bat, Marie's got a lot of different cultures that kind of influenced.

Gina (11:56)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (12:07)

her upbringing and belief systems that would shape her spiritual practices later in life, which don't worry, we'll talk about extensively later. ⁓ But on top of that, the fact that her mother's ancestry was such a mix, Marie's heritage would become kind of an even bigger mystery due to the fact that we don't technically know for certain who her father was.

And it is said that she also didn't know who her father was. And it's speculated that her mother also didn't know who her father was. And I'm ⁓ kind of phrasing it this way because that is disputed heavily. That's kind of one of the things that is part of her lore and mystery. And the fact that there weren't technically records on who her father was, was used to...

perpetuate and further the mystique around who she was and where she came from, because that's a big pearl clutching situation. If a woman doesn't know who the father of her child was and this child never knew her dad and blah, blah, blah, blah, in 1801. But the reality is there was not good or consistent record keeping when it came to the lives of people of color in 1801.

everything was really inconsistent if it existed at all. So it could be as simple as his name just didn't show up on one document one time and people kind of ran with that because we do have some guesses as to who her father could have been slash was likely to be. And it was likely a man named Charles Laveau. The problem was there were multiple Charles Laveaus in.

the area at the time. One possibility was a white Creole man named Charles Laveau, who was the son of a prominent Louisiana politician named Charles Laveau Trudeau. And oh, what?

Gina (14:17)

That's a great name. I like that it rhymes.

Kathryn (14:18)

Okay, yeah, I kinda liked it. Yeah, it has

like a little bounce to it. Trudeau, Laveau Trudeau, yeah. Other historians say, and the more likely option ⁓ was the fact that her father was also a free man of color, just like her mom. ⁓ His name was also Charles Laveau, but part of the discrepancy was it was spelled with an X on the end, L-A-V-E-A-U-X, which is the plural.

Gina (14:25)

on today.

Mmm

Kathryn (14:48)

form of Laveau. Again, is possible going back to the record keeping, is possible that whoever was documenting names and, you know, all of these things in whatever records were kept just didn't care to include or exclude the X. So that's why their last names are spelled different. So her dad was either some white guy named Charles or a free man of color named Charles.

Either way, we know that she was in her community known as this black woman of mixed descent who had no official dad, basically. ⁓ Part of the reason that it is more likely that her father was the second option is whether or not he was her biological father, because that's another thing that was kind of disputed or talked about, he did claim her.

on his will. So we don't know if it was as simple as she didn't have a dad and he like emotionally adopted her or if he really was her father. So again, the reason I'm kind of landing on this so hard is all of this contributed to the mystery around her and of allowed her to, we'll get into this more later, but it kind of allowed her to...

like sneak around socially a little bit because she had this air of mystique as to like where she came from and what her lineage actually was. Despite the fact that she was claimed on this man's will, she was primarily raised by her mother and grandmother. Her grandmother's name was Catherine Henry and was the one who had purchased

her freedom

Marie was baptized in the Catholic Church at St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans when she was born. And growing up, she was incredibly active in the Catholic Church pretty much all throughout her childhood and into adulthood.

Gina (16:57)

I wasn't expecting the Catholic stuff, although I like.

Kathryn (17:01)

Mm-hmm.

Gina (17:02)

Catholicism has been associated with the practice of magic and stuff. And I guess there's a trend of people like raised Catholic running in a different direction with it. So surprising off the cuff, but maybe not when I think about it.

Kathryn (17:19)

⁓ It's very surprising, but not when you think about it for reasons that I will go into later because it is very, it was very surprising to me and is very surprising to a lot of people and

Not to jump ahead, but I accidentally, was looking into this topic. This is a rabbit hole that I fell down and I'm not gonna, I'm doing my best to not fall down it on here, because that's a whole other episode. Accidentally ended up on Catholic Reddit, which is a scary place to be. ⁓ And they don't love this part of her story. ⁓ For reasons I'll get into later, yeah, yeah.

Gina (18:01)

Well, well, well, the

Kathryn (18:04)

All of that is to say we'll get there don't you worry I will ramble about that toward the end of the episode ⁓ Back to just her general life story when she was about 18 I think she was either almost 18 or almost 19. I don't remember the math

She married a man named Jacques Perri, who was a Haitian immigrant and he had left Haiti in the wake of the Haitian Revolution, as many people did around that time. That's why New Orleans specifically has such a huge Haitian population. my God, more rhyming. ⁓ Yeah. They, I know, right? Am I president now?

Gina (18:38)

My gosh. Poet Laureate Kathryn. Sorry, go

ahead. You've graduated, you've moved up the ranks.

Kathryn (18:49)

That was so easy!

Gina (18:51)

Wait, can you imagine a country where you decided who was president based on the poetry that they wrote? Would that be a great or a horrible decision?

Kathryn (19:00)

It depends on who's choosing.

Gina (19:03)

Great decision. Okay, we can move on.

Kathryn (19:04)

then that would be great.

So they got married in the same church where she was baptized and together they would have two daughters, Félicité and Angèle And Jacques, Jacques, Jacques, I don't know how to pronounce it, Jacques. was a carpenter in the city, but he would occasionally travel around the area and kind of throughout Louisiana as work would present itself. And

Gina (19:21)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (19:32)

Unfortunately, he did disappear from records starting in 1823, suggesting that he passed away. It is believed that he likely died in Baton Rouge in that year. A lot of sources were saying that he, quote, went missing within a year of their marriage. And just doesn't seem to be true because their daughters

were not born within the first year of, they had two daughters. he couldn't have, that's like not enough time. ⁓ So, but that is one of the rumors. I think, I don't know for sure, context clues. I do think that that was a rumor started from a, ooh, she's a spooky witch that, you know, whose husband went missing after they got married. You know what I mean? I think it was one of those.

Gina (20:01)

Yeah.

Weird.

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (20:21)

in case you hear that, that seems pretty debunkable, I will say. the first indicator that he had died and was not just missing as many people believed was Marie was listed as quote, the widow, Paris.

on her daughter's baptism document. So as a widow, she needed income. So it was around that time that she opened a beauty parlor. And, you know, after she got started, it just kind of so happened that she sort of worked her way into the kind of rich white woman, clientele. So that's who her parlor catered to.

Gina (20:41)

Okay.

Kathryn (21:06)

So women from more prominent families in New Orleans would come to her parlor to get their hair done. And this is a crucial detail and kind of key to how her status would build and how she would get the reputation that she had and kind of still has to this day. when she was working with all of these women,

she was listening to what was going on. She's getting all the hot goss and more importantly, she's like making these women feel seen and heard. probably started as these women were gossiping amongst each other and she and whatever other stylists were working with her were overhearing it and getting this information, but it turned into she was like kind of proving herself trustworthy as a confidant, as

any woman who gets her hair done can attest, it's basically like a therapy. Like you need to have a hairstylist that you can kind of vent to and all that because like that's kind of a vulnerable spot to be in. You're sitting in chairs, someone's taking scissors to your head. know, like there is a communal aspect to it. So again, it likely started as she was just kind of overhearing.

Gina (22:02)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (22:25)

the white lady rich gossip and it turned into they would talk to her directly about it. Aka she learned how to get and attain this very powerful currency which was gossip. ⁓ And she used that to not only get connected to the circle of the elite, but she would also offer solutions to

these people's problems for no other reason than just she was listening. You know, she was listening to the issue and like using her critical thinking skills and like offering this sound advice. And people were like, my God, like, where'd you come up with that? It's like, well, I know what's going on with everyone. So I know what's going to solve the little argument you have with what's her face. Because I know exactly how she's feeling about it too. You know what I mean? It was kind of like that type of situation.

Gina (23:10)

Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (23:22)

To further her credibility within these circles, shortly after her husband died, I don't know how shortly, again, stories kind of made it seem like it was immediately after. I don't know if it was, you know, to kind of scandalize her or if it really was very shortly thereafter. She would shack up with a French nobleman named Christophe. I know, right? I don't know how to say his name. It's Christophe Dominic something French. I don't know. I'll...

Gina (23:43)

Ho-ho!

⁓ The classic French surname.

Kathryn (23:52)

It's like, I don't know how to say this. I'm gonna use a very American

accent to just sound out these noises. Domine DeGloppion.

However you say that in French is what his name was.

Gina (24:09)

You

That sounds like a horrifying last name.

Kathryn (24:16)

Yeah, it's, I'll put it here in the YouTube, it's awful. But no offense, Dominic. Anyway, so they were just shacking up. They never married. He was a white man of French noble descent and interracial marriages were still illegal in most areas around these parts and pretty much all over. I interracial marriage was not legalized until like here in the United States, until I think like the 50s or 60s.

Gina (24:21)

Good ol' gloppy.

Kathryn (24:45)

later than it should have been. I think it was like the 50s. I don't remember for So they never got married, but they did live together.

until he died in 1855 of like old age. So they were together for the rest of their lives, essentially. It is reported that they had 15 children together, which I will say possible, I guess, certainly. But historians do speculate that some of those children may have been grandchildren or like kind of fostered children. We'll get into that later. But

Gina (25:08)

⁓ my God.

Kathryn (25:24)

I mean, it is certainly possible. Like, she wasn't... Like, when they got together, she was still young, you know, and she lived a long, healthy life. So it is perfectly possible that she had 15 children. Either way, it is said that only two would survive into adulthood. I don't know if that includes the two that she had previously. I don't know if they're included in the 15.

for all intents and purposes, even though they weren't married, which was objectively pretty scandalous, they were a family, you know what I mean? Like they ran the household together, they were together until his death. ⁓ And she was essentially considered his wife socially. having this kind of connection to the upper class just furthered her reputation among...

the women who already trusted her, but it kind of became like more solidified. And she was kind of the go-to for everyone in this kind of inner circle in the upper class. Also, keep in mind, one of the things I find really interesting about that specifically is in the eyes of society, there really wasn't any such thing as like, you know,

mixed race or biracial or anything like that. Back then it was just she was a Black woman, period, end of sentence, and from a formerly enslaved family. So I do think it's really impressive that she was able to work her way into this inner circle the way she did because of that. That's how, you know she's good because she was not only able to

Gina (26:42)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kathryn (27:05)

access that inner circle, but she was able to stay in that inner circle and remain trusted by that inner circle. And because she was a black woman, she still was trusted by people kind of all across the class and race spectrum throughout New Orleans. ⁓ A lot of her clients and people that she would work with and people that would confide in her. It wasn't just

the rich white crowd. also had their servants coming to her and, you know, enslaved people. And then just like people throughout town. She really kind of had a toe in every circle throughout New Orleans, but in a very genuine way. Like people continued to trust her because she proved to be trustworthy. It wasn't, there didn't seem to be anything like snaky about it. She wasn't weaseling her way into these circles. She just

was there for people when they needed her across all race, class, and genders. Like she really was a person of her community, which I think is really impressive.

Gina (28:14)

That's amazing. It's reminding me of, she sounds like a more earnest version of La Voison when we did the episode on her. yeah.

Kathryn (28:20)

That's what I was thinking of her when I was doing this.

It really seemed like a, yeah, yeah. I don't want to say more genuine version of that, because I don't know Lavoisin's full. You did the research, so I feel more comfortable you saying that.

Gina (28:29)

I would say so because yeah. And

like there's nothing wrong with it. Like she was just always very, she wanted the money, she wanted the prestige. It was more superficial. Whereas I'm not getting that vibe from Marie's story. I'm not saying she didn't want money, but that doesn't seem like it was her primary driver.

Kathryn (28:45)

Mm-hmm.

That's the thing, she did work as a spiritual leader and we'll talk more about that here very shortly. But it seemed like she was a very good spiritual leader because that wasn't all it was about. Like that is how she made her income, but it was done so in my opinion and many people's opinions, which is why we're still talking about her today, that it was done ethically, you know?

Gina (29:02)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Kathryn (29:17)

a quick aside, kind of on that note, because we are getting into the more spiritual aspect of it. So far, we've just talked about the kind of confidant, like getting all the hot goss and giving advice. There was a spiritual aspect to it as well, obviously. And she is one of those people who many people think was...

referred to as a witch because she also worked as a midwife. She would offer like medical help to women when they were pregnant and while they were giving birth she also would offer herbal remedies to people. ⁓ So people think that she's one of those misconceptions where she made herbal quote unquote spells or tonics and therefore people called her a witch. ⁓ But that's kind of

That's not really the case. There really wasn't much of an overlap with that. It wasn't that, you know, she made herbal remedies and worked as a midwife, therefore people called her a witch. It was, she was a spiritual practitioner and part of that was herbal remedies and rituals and all that. And also she was a woman of her community with medical knowledge and would help women give birth. Like,

So they were like maybe somewhere along the line people would call her a witch for that, it wasn't really how people were referring to her at the time. If that did happen, it was retrospective, essentially, you know, like those two things were both things she did, but kind of for

Gina (30:51)

Okay.

Kathryn (30:57)

Same reason, but separate.

But moving into this kind of spiritual aspect of, you know, everything I just said and the way people thought of her services, this is sort of where being like a black woman amongst all these like elite rich white ladies came in extra handy.

because retrospectively, most of her quote magical or mystical or spiritual practices were really just being intelligent, which people did not expect her to be because she was a woman of color. Do you know what I mean?

Gina (31:30)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (31:33)

she was capable of putting two and two together and offering sound advice as a result, but people very much viewed it as like, how could this woman possibly know this? And between you and me, it was just because she had critical thinking skills. But to them, you know, the bar was set very low because she was a woman of color,

the answer was as simple as like, well, I heard you say this thing and used my brain and responded accordingly. Most of her like, you know, premonitions and all of this kind of stuff were just as simple as that. And that is not to say that she wasn't psychic or performing spiritual rituals or magic or whatever. I do believe that she did, have a

Powerful intuition and gift that she worked on and practice and therefore was able to offer those types of services to people But the reason she was so impressive to people most of the time was just because she was using her brain You know and people were not expecting her to

one of the other things that made her more credible to all types of people throughout the community was the way she approached her spiritual practice. She was a devout Catholic and over the years as she was getting deeper into her own spirituality and spiritual

offerings to people. She did ultimately become a New Orleans voodoo priestess and she played a pretty important role in the community as this like leader of voodoo locally. And this is kind of the point where I have to

I owe everyone an explanation about the Catholic to voodoo situation. And this is where my fear of talking about voodoo needs to be like addressed because we've mentioned this on multiple episodes and we will always mention it when we're talking about voodoo. It is such a horrendously misunderstood religion and.

If you even take a few moments to research it at all, it's very clear that all of the misconceptions are 100 % just racism. I just have to be very frank about that. Because I'm not going to go into what voodoo is, but I am going to go into how it was created, because that will explain the whole Catholic thing.

Gina (33:56)

⁓ okay.

Okay.

Kathryn (34:10)

I do recommend people fall down a rabbit hole about because it is very interesting. Essentially, Voodoo is a religion that was created in and around Haiti and at its core, it is essentially a conglomerate of

numerous spiritual practices from primarily Western Africa, combined with the core principles of Catholicism. It was developed among the Afro-Haitian communities as they traveled along the Atlantic slave trade between the 16th and 19th centuries. And it most likely started

Gina (34:38)

Okay.

Kathryn (34:54)

as a way for enslaved people to continue practicing their West African spiritual beliefs under the guise of something acceptable to colonists, which would have been Catholicism. So over the centuries, as all of these mixes of spirituality and spiritual beliefs got combined with

Caribbean culture, which was a hub for the trade Specifically, this is where like, I'm like, I feel like that meme of like, where's my white board with the red string? ⁓ Specifically, once it hit the Caribbean, it was kind of combined with Cuban Santeria and all these other cultures

kind of became this separate thing. A lot of people think slash consider it a West African spiritual belief because the people who created it were and are West African. But it's like West African by way of Caribbean, specifically Cuba and Haiti. So it's like this whole thing under the guise of

Catholicism. So a lot of the ⁓ gods or deities, whatever you want to call them in the Voodoo religion, mirror Catholic saints. And again, this is all just kind of their way of still believing in original West African gods, and they just turn them into something different.

but it is a totally different religion. It's like all of these different spiritual beliefs kind of combined in People will say, no, it's from Nigeria or Haiti or this or that or whatever, but it's really all of them.

all of this is to say her transition from Catholicism to voodoo makes a lot of sense because what likely was actually happening, and I don't know this for sure, this is just kind of a guess based on what we know about how voodoo was created and where and when and why, cetera, it is likely that her

mother and grandmother, etc., etc., were all voodoo practitioners, but it was in their best interest to be baptized in the Catholic Church so that they could operate in society without harm, essentially. So even though she was a, quote, devout Catholic, my God, there's a rat. I just saw a rat run across my neighbor's driveway.

Gina (37:26)

Hey.

In your, God,

I thought you meant in your office. And I was like, why are you so calm?

Kathryn (37:45)

No, sorry, I was looking out the window

Gina (37:47)

there's

a rat on my floor.

Kathryn (37:51)

I don't know why this might sound weird, but that feels like a good sign. I don't know. It was a nice plump fat rat. That's like a nice thing to see this time of year. Should be starving. Also, I hate that neighbor, so kind of hope they have rats in their basement. Not gonna lie.

Gina (38:00)

Nature.

Well, maybe they're the ones who are cursed.

Kathryn (38:07)

my god, maybe. Yeah.

Anyway, that was a lot and I like totally rambled so much and I hope that all made sense. But yeah, so once you understand it from that lens, like I said, the Catholic to Voodoo jump makes a whole lot more sense because there probably wasn't a jump at all. She likely was always practicing Voodoo and just publicly calling it Catholicism. Catholicism? Catholicism. Yeah. Cath-i-a-licism. Yeah.

Gina (38:18)

It did. It's very interesting.

Catholicism. Cath-e-o-li-cism. Fascinating. That makes so

much sense.

Kathryn (38:41)

Yeah, it does. And anyone out there has more information on Voodoo and better information, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com Let us know because it is fascinating. And the rabbit holes you can fall down, pristine. It's such an interesting belief system. the way they, like their rituals and stuff are all.

Gina (38:51)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (39:04)

Just like fantastic. love, I just love it.

Gina (39:07)

I have pulled up the Wikipedia page for Haitian Voodoo and I will read it later.

Kathryn (39:12)

Yes, please do. I don't have any books that I necessarily recommend on Voodoo, but I do unfortunately have books that I recommend against if you're trying to learn more about Voodoo. I don't remember the names off the top of my head. if you ever...

look into books on it, let me know, because there are some that I'll know them if I say. A lot of them were like intro to witchcraft type books and they like talk about little pieces of each thing. And like, I've just seen some where it's just whether or not the things are true, it's not the most important thing to like focus on. a lot of people will categorize it as like a cannibalistic spiritual practice. And it's like,

Gina (39:32)

Okay.

Kathryn (39:57)

Okay, so is fucking Catholicism. We eat the body and blood of Christ every Sunday.

Gina (39:59)

Yeah.

fucking transmutation, isn't that what it's called?

Kathryn (40:04)

Yeah, and like nobody calls it that though. Like, so why are we calling voodoo that? Yeah, exactly. So it's just that type of thing where it's like, even if you're not wrong, it's not correct that you are framing it that way, you know? So that's my issue with it. But anyway, so all of this is to say she knew how to have a foot in all different parts of culture.

Gina (40:07)

Zombie Jesus every Easter? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Wrong lens. Okay, I get it.

Kathryn (40:32)

the culture in New Orleans and she, how do I say used it to her advantage because she wasn't like manipulative or whatever. was just able to help everyone basically, which was like not super common. She was just a woman of the people and people came to her for all sorts of things. Love spells, protection charms, healing remedies.

medicinal herbs, we already talked about that kind of stuff, but they weren't always looking for magic. A lot of times they just needed a consultant or friend. A lot of the people that she worked with were, people, servants, the sick and dying. She was known to frequent prisons and work with prisoners who were either sick or scheduled for execution, things like that. She really

cared for everyone. She was very much one of those people who I'm imagining like in like a small Christian community, people will like consult with their pastor if they don't know what to do. They don't necessarily need prayer. They just need someone to like tell them what to do. That's kind of the vibe for me, the kind of role that she played in the community. And

A big part of her practice was charity work.

There were several cholera and fever outbreaks throughout the 1800s, which is likely why she had 15 children and only ended up with two living into adulthood. That was very common, especially in a place like New Orleans, when it's very hot, humid, That's like a breeding ground for that, especially with it being on a trade route and everything. There was a lot of sickness. ⁓

Gina (42:14)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (42:16)

all the time. And she was one of those people that was not afraid. people would kind of shun people and like they didn't want to be near the poor or the sick or anything like that. And she was just one of those people where she would show up anyway.

She also cared for a lot of the children whose parents died from these outbreaks, which is another reason she may have had so many children because even if not all 15 of those children were hers, over the years she kind of had children in and out of her home. She's kind of like a pseudo foster mother for years.

Gina (42:36)

Aww.

Kathryn (42:51)

and she would donate to orphanages. She just cared for everyone. The list goes on and on and on. There was no gatekeeping with her services or her talents or anything like At the end of the day,

Yes, she was this kind of mystical magical being and people trusted her and got help from her and all that. But a lot of the mystical magical aspects of her were just her being a kind woman and like there for everyone.

She lived a long, healthy life and she was offering her services to people up until the end. But it is said, despite her death in 1881, she still roams the streets of New Orleans today. While I absolutely do believe her spirit is alive and well in the city, if you go there, you can just feel it. I do think that she is the embodiment of the community feeling you get in New Orleans.

I also do want to take this opportunity to talk about her daughter who was also a voodoo practitioner and eventually priestess.

Keep in mind, she had many children. And one thing I thought was super interesting, I don't know if this is like a French thing or a New Orleans thing or an 1800s thing, but all of her daughters had the first name Marie and then their middle name was like what they went by, which I know is a thing that men do.

with like a junior or whatever, but it was literally every single one of her daughters was Marie so-and-so, Marie so-and-so. Is that like a thing?

Gina (44:27)

I feel like at some

point I knew something about that and it has since fallen out of my brain and I don't remember what I used to know. But yeah, it was a thing.

Kathryn (44:32)

Yeah, it's-

Yeah, I just thought that was cool. I liked seeing that. I feel like it might be a French thing, would make sense if she was with a French guy. I don't know. Either way, she had a daughter who also went by Marie Laveau. And that caused a lot of confusion after Marie's death because people would see Marie Junior or whatever walking the streets. And they looked a lot of like it was, you know, they were

Gina (44:40)

I love that.

Yeah.

Kathryn (45:04)

mother and daughter, both voodoo practitioners and priestesses, and she would confuse people. Like people genuinely would be like, oh my God, she's still alive. She's still well, like blah, blah, blah, blah. is thought

Stories about these women have kind of become one. So there are a lot of stories about the daughter offering these very kind of flamboyant and ritualistic and more like theatrical services to people that

The original Marie did not. She was much quieter and a lot more private with the way she practiced. ⁓ But they kind of became mythological creature as the time went on because people genuinely thought that when they saw her daughter, they were seeing her, especially after she died. So that's what started the legend of her kind of walk in the streets of New Orleans, which again, I fully believe that she is. ⁓

but the physical human wandering around was actually likely just her daughter.

I also love the idea of her daughter kind of egging that on a little bit, because if she was theatrical and flamboyant, you know damn well that she was enjoying those rumors. You know what I mean? And...

Gina (46:27)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (46:28)

Marie kind of liked it too. Like part of the reason she was so private and we don't know that much about her is because of the fact that she never corrected any rumors of her being, you know, this like otherworldly mystical being and neither did her daughter. Like they wanted to be known as like this spooky New Orleans being basically.

which I really enjoy. And I like that there is so much mystery around her and there continues to be.

it is appropriate that she is a symbol for the city because I think everything that she offered and did for people is kind of what you feel and experience when you go there for yourself.

Gina (47:14)

Completely agree. It feels like she's New Orleans' mom.

Kathryn (47:19)

Yeah, that's such a great, I didn't know how to phrase it, but that is exactly the vibe. That's exactly what it feels like. Yeah.

Gina (47:26)

What a lovely, lovely story.

Kathryn (47:29)

I know, I love her. I was gonna do her for witch month, but I didn't feel like that was appropriate because yes, you can consider her a witch and many people do and that's okay and wonderful and I love that. But I feel like that's not the most important part of her story. feel like her, wasn't the magic that she did. was like, there was just magic in who she was as a person on earth. Like it wasn't the spells, it was.

Gina (47:36)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Kathryn (47:58)

the way she provided them to people that was important.

Gina (48:02)

Yeah, I think there's... Like, I don't think we were reductive during Witch Month, but I think putting Marie Laveau solely in the category of witch would be overly reductive. Yeah.

Kathryn (48:12)

It felt wrong. Yeah.

It felt wrong to do. Yeah.

Gina (48:16)

I feel comforted. I'm glad that we lit candles. I feel very connected. This is nice. Ugh.

Kathryn (48:19)

Me too! Yeah. It definitely, this

is, she's like a warm blanket type of person in my head. Yeah. I know. You're welcome. Do you perhaps have a scary on top for me?

Gina (48:26)

Yeah!

What a good energy. Yay, thank you so much for that. I loved it.

I do, I do have a scary on top for you.

I found a story, a spooky little story on Reddit about New Orleans. It is from a username that I can't pronounce, Dasachamg, D-A-S-A-C-H-A-M-G. I don't recognize those sounds, but that's who it's from, and I'll begin reading at this very moment. So.

Kathryn (48:50)

Ooh, okay.

Yeah.

Gina (49:11)

My wife and I got married in New Orleans on March 7th. As a gift, my sister-in-law covered a three-night stay for us at Hotel St. Vincent. For context, this hotel was originally an infant asylum before being converted into a boutique hotel in 2021. Will call out infant asylum because it definitely was not like a mental hospital for infants. I think it's like an orphanage.

Kathryn (49:32)

was like,

I was gonna say, please tell me this is like where people drop off babies, not like, okay. what I was hoping for, but I was alarmed just in case, because words are weird. Okay, thank you for clarifying.

Gina (49:38)

That's what it was. Yes.

I I forgot

that was in there until it came out of my mouth and I was like, ooh, I should explain that one. That's not what it sounds like.

Kathryn (49:51)

I feel like the

average person would understand that I just was momentarily alarmed, because weirder things have happened. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Anyway, continue.

Gina (49:55)

Just in case. It's the word asylum. That is true. Especially at asylums, my God. Okay.

I should also maybe point out this story takes place in 2025. So this was less than a year ago.

Just for context. So, on the night of Thursday, March 6th, after our welcome party, my wife and I returned to our room and ordered room service. After eating, we had to separate for the night to follow the tradition of sleeping apart before the wedding. My wife stayed with her family and there was no way in hell I was staying alone in that room given the hotel's history. I knew I'd psych myself out all night, so I crashed in my mom's hotel room since she had an extra bed. The next morning,

I went back to our room to get ready for the wedding. I spent most of the morning alone and the vibes felt fine. At some point, I was scrolling through my camera roll, looking at pictures from the night before, when I noticed that my wife had taken a photo of our room. Something in the reflection of the TV screen caught my eye. I zoomed in and immediately noped the fuck out. I decided I wasn't going to look at that image again until we checked out.

Kathryn (51:05)

my God.

Gina (51:11)

I do have the image, I will send it to you, but I'm gonna wait. Okay. Meanwhile, some friends were also staying at the hotel and one couple in particular ended up changing rooms multiple times. The husband had never believed in ghosts before, but after their experience at Hotel St. Vincent, that changed. They reported seeing handprints, a chandelier moving despite no open windows or AC, and

Kathryn (51:12)

Thank goodness. Okay, good. Okay.

Gina (51:39)

even had the hotel staff cover all the mirrors.

Kathryn (51:43)

Ooh.

Gina (51:44)

back to our wedding night. We returned to our room around 2 a.m., completely exhausted. I didn't experience anything, but my wife later told me that as she was lying in bed taking off her veil, she heard voices. She didn't mention it to me until after we had checked out. Despite that, we managed to sleep through the night, though we did leave a light on. Then came Saturday, our final night in New Orleans.

After saying goodbye to our remaining wedding guests, we got back to our room around 9.30 p.m. As we were getting ready for bed, my wife suddenly said, did you hear that? The second she said it, I responded, yes, and I immediately got chills. We both heard a distinct whooshing sound as if something was moving through the room. My wife kept hearing it throughout the night and I caught it a few times.

but the unease was enough to keep me awake. Thankfully, we had to leave at 4.45 a.m. for a quick post-wedding getaway in Miami, and with daylight savings that night, the hours flew by. I know, right? I would never want to get up that early.

Kathryn (52:53)

Thank you so much for not just brushing past that because what the fu- I would never. This is the day after the wedding? Or was it a day later?

Gina (52:57)

I know. ⁓

This

is...

Think it is the day after the wedding.

Kathryn (53:06)

Unless I misheard the timeline, that was what I was understanding. Is it the day after?

Gina (53:10)

No, was the

day after, yeah.

Kathryn (53:14)

Okay, that's better. ⁓ yeah, because I forgot their friends checked out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, That's...

Gina (53:18)

Still, like I'm glad that they found each other. Two people willing to get up at that hour, that's

nice. But, my god.

Kathryn (53:26)

Yeah, no,

that would not, absolutely not.

Gina (53:29)

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, they had to wake up at an ungodly hour. They're going to Miami. My wife managed to doze off for a bit, but she later told me that while she was dreaming about the wedding and trying to focus on happy thoughts, disturbing visions kept interrupting her sleep, such as an old picture of a woman in her dreams and a child screaming. I, on the other hand, did not sleep at all.

I kept my eyes closed, but the overwhelming feeling of being watched never faded. my 420 AM alarm finally went off, I jumped out of bed, ready to get the hell out of there. As I was packing our bags and my wife was brushing her teeth, I heard a voice behind me. Thinking it was her, I asked, did you say something? And she hadn't. That was it. We were out.

While waiting in line at the airport, I finally told my wife about the photo I had seen in the TV reflection. I had purposefully avoided showing it to her until we left the hotel. When I zoomed in and handed her the phone, she turned pale and said, I'm gonna throw up. Such a legit reaction. Yeah. A couple of days later, I decided to take another look. This time I zoomed in on the other side of the image.

Kathryn (54:42)

my god, yes.

Gina (54:52)

And I swear I can make out the outline of a child with eyes staring right below the mirror under the lamp. So I'll put the picture in the YouTube video and we'll link it in the show notes, but I'll send it to you now. Yeah, give me one sec. I'll WhatsApp it to you.

Kathryn (55:05)

Okay. ⁓

Gina (55:09)

And then the third picture is where they say they see a child standing just under the mirror.

Now part of the reason I picked this story to tell you is because I can see what's in the TV that is sufficiently freaky. I can't see anything under the mirror and you are great at spotting this stuff. So I thought maybe I could make you do it.

Kathryn (55:33)

Okay, give me a second. So it's under the mirror?

Gina (55:39)

Let's see, yeah. I swear I could make out the outline of a child with eyes staring right below the mirror under the lamp.

Kathryn (55:46)

Yeah, so I see that. I do. I'm the opposite. I see the eyes. I do not see what's in the TV. Let me see. ⁓ yeah. OK, I saw that. I was going to say I see a weird reflection. I thought it was a lamp, but I can kind of.

Gina (55:59)

Mm-hmm.

Kathryn (56:07)

can definitely see there's like a head.

Gina (56:10)

Yeah.

Kathryn (56:10)

and eyes.

Gina (56:12)

You know what, now that I'm looking at it, if you look at the first picture where it's like the whole room, there is a light fixture hanging above the bed that could make a shape like that on the TV.

Not to be lame, but...

Kathryn (56:25)

the thing that they're seeing in the mirror or under the mirror, like that one's a little weirder because it does look like just a reflection of something.

But I don't know of what. Huh?

Gina (56:39)

Okay, I can see that.

I think I can see that like under the mirror.

Kathryn (56:46)

It's literally like just a rectangular shape directly underneath the lamp.

Gina (56:51)

Yeah, yeah, I could see that.

Kathryn (56:53)

That's what he's

seeing. So it's interesting because

That was the first thing I saw. I definitely saw the eyes first out of all of these it feels out of place.

The skeptical side of me is like it could be a reflection from that lamp in the mirror.

Gina (57:10)

Yeah.

Kathryn (57:11)

But I don't know how, I don't know if that's normal.

Gina (57:14)

That's my thing. I haven't seen, I've seen

lamps in mirrors. I don't know if I've seen them make shapes like that before.

Kathryn (57:22)

It's just so perfectly rectangular.

Gina (57:25)

Yeah. So I don't know. don't find these pictures to be... Because sometimes we look at pictures that accompany stories like this and it's like, my God, if this is real, the ghosts 100 % exist. Like one I think could go either way. I'm not like 100 % convinced by this.

Kathryn (57:35)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. I agree.

part of what would make me more inclined to see what they're seeing is if there was more than one photo, because it's a little easier to see if something's weird if you know what it looks like without it. You know what I mean? I always hate on Reddit when they'll be like, oh, I took a bunch of pictures and this one was weird, but they only share the one.

Gina (57:47)

Mm-hmm.

That's true. Yeah, that's fair.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kathryn (58:03)

I'm like,

well, what's weird? I appreciate if you're ever posting weird stuff on reddit post all of the things Don't just post the one weird thing cuz I need like to see how it's weird

Gina (58:14)

You need the control. The control version. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, that's it. I wanted to share that with you because New Orleans, but also ghosts and also pictures. So yeah, we'll ⁓ share them. If you guys spot anything, totally let us know. Or if you have a story that you want us to read or discuss at the end of the pod, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com If we haven't said it enough times this episode, we should play a drinking game where every time we say it, we have to take a shot.

Kathryn (58:16)

Yeah, I need the control group. Yeah.

All right. Cool.

Yeah.

Ooh.

iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com Let us know if you play that game. And are you okay?

Gina (58:50)

And are you okay?

But yes, until then, keep it cool.

Kathryn (58:58)

Keep it creepy.