62: Hodag
Kathryn (00:10)
Ha ha ha
Gina (00:12)
Good to go? Sweet. Welcome to I Scream, You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:13)
Good to go.
and I'm Kathryn
Gina (00:25)
and in January we are talking about cryptids and we are eating a ⁓ not ice cream technically which I'm a little bit nervous to say out loud but I will because I'm brave. Sherbert, we're eating sherbert with our mouths. ⁓ Quick and friendly reminder that we post a lot of cool stuff on Patreon so if you want to become a member link is always in the show notes.
Kathryn (00:38)
Do it. Sherbert.
Gina (00:52)
But we also get that, it's the start of the new year. Everyone's on their new budgeting goals. So if Patreon's not in the budget for you right now, that's totally fine. You can also leave us a review. And if you send us a screenshot to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com we'll send you a free sticker. So many fun and exciting ways to engage with us this not-holiday season. But until then, grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Kathryn (01:12)
you
You did so good. New Year's same intro problems. Someday we'll be used to introducing ourselves to podcast listeners. Today is not that day.
Gina (01:20)
I'm floored I got through that on the first try. I was like I better be quiet before I say something that fucks it up.
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Maybe when we've been doing it for two years, we'll be used to it.
Kathryn (01:41)
Two years. Yeah,
everything will be fine when we're two.
Gina (01:46)
Yeah, as it always is. I do real quick have to show you something that I got for Christmas because I'm so obsessed with it. So my sister got me a candle that looks like a can of corn.
Kathryn (01:51)
my god.
What? Are you kidding? What?
Gina (02:02)
and it's cornbread scented. It's from Trader Joe's
and it smells immaculate. So if you have a Trader Joe's near you and you want a cornbread scented candle in your life, go get it, because it's so good and it burns forever.
Kathryn (02:09)
Dude.
I love cornbread. I love cornbread so much. That's an A plus gift.
Gina (02:21)
Me too. And actually, I
have a great ⁓ use case for this. for Christmas this year, me and my got that, have you heard, it's like called, I think it's called surstromming. It's the thing of when you take herring and you ferment it for like a bajillion years and it smells awful. We tried it, or at least opened it to see what it smelled like. And it smelled so bad it stunk out.
Kathryn (02:35)
Mm.
⁓ yeah.
Gina (02:47)
like Maddy and Aaron's whole room in the Airbnb and so I let them borrow the candle to light it in their room to like knock out the scent knocked it right out this candle is amazing so that's my that's my testimonial firsthand
Kathryn (02:48)
Ugh.
I will say that that would be the exact reason I would want to use it. I'm thinking a more everyday example would be if you burn something in the oven.
Or like, you know when you are cooking and maybe the bottom of the oven's not as clean as it should be while you're cooking your new thing? That happens after we make pizza all the time. And I just like, that smell, I just, hate that smell so much because it lingers. That's what I would want that for. Because it's still a food smell. Yeah.
Gina (03:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
same.
It's perfect for that.
It's still, and it's like warm. It's what I wish that vanilla scented candles smelled like, because it has that warm sweetness without the icky stickiness of it. Excellent candle. Excellent gift.
Kathryn (03:42)
Yeah, ⁓ okay.
Yeah, I do not like a...
That's awesome. I hear you. I don't love a baked good scented candle. Yeah, that's nice. I'm jealous. Shout out to Maddy What a great gift.
Gina (03:53)
No.
Yeah, so shout out to Maddy. Thanks, Mad Dog. You rock. Yeah,
I agree. I also have a separate update, because you and I were talking about it off the podcast recently, and I want to bring it on the podcast. So I had not ever seen Clueless, the movie, in my life until about, well, maybe a month ago now, I watched it. And I want to debrief with you a little bit about it, because it was...
Kathryn (04:12)
Okay.
Gina (04:26)
I just, I absolutely adored it
Kathryn (04:28)
Okay, so we have to give context. I'm sure I've talked about it before, but just I'm obsessed with Clueless. It is top three favorite movies of all time.
When Gina and I were recently discussing it, I was genuinely horrified that she had never seen it, mostly because I will say in my defense, it's mostly because I reference it so often and talk about it so often. I was partially alarmed that it took this long for it to come up, that you've never seen it. I've just been like, la, la, la, la, la. Everyone's seen this movie. I'm just going to talk about it as
Gina (04:53)
Hehehe
Hehehehehe
Kathryn (05:02)
if
everyone see it, because in my head, love it so much. I'm like, every girl in my generation has seen and loves this movie as well. It's just that's what my brain has been. So when I learned you didn't see it, I was very, very sad. But you have since seen it, and that was a very fast turnaround. I feel like we were just talking about this. So I'm very excited to hear your feedback.
Gina (05:04)
Hehehe.
Yeah, because
the day that we were talking about it, like the day after that Tom was gone all day, I think he was at a gig and like an out of town gig kind of thing. And so I just had like a girly self care day. And so was trying to find like movies that not that Tom wouldn't watch, but just that I, Gina really wanted to watch. so this one, yeah.
Kathryn (05:35)
Mm-hmm.
It hits different when you're doing it
on a girly solo day.
Gina (05:50)
Yeah,
like I was sitting, my hair was like all getting styled, like it was in my little hair mask, I was doing my nails watching it, it was the perfect day. ⁓ Overall, 11 out of 10 movie, absolutely adored it. I was so, I was nervous with the setup because the setup makes it seem like Cher is gonna have a, ⁓ shit, I'm a bully arc, but she doesn't. She's an absolutely like gem of a person throughout. And this scene,
Kathryn (05:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yes, it's so good!
Mm-mm.
Yes.
Gina (06:19)
where she decides to make over her soul and to do that she takes inspiration from all of her friends. I teared up at that part. I thought that was so beautiful.
Kathryn (06:27)
Yes!
Honestly, to the uninitiated, think people think that that is what it is because she's rich and blonde. You're made to think she's going to be a bully, but she's not. Cher has such a good heart and she's such a good person. She's just also like a spoiled rich kid, but she's not a spoiled brat. That's the difference. Like she's not a mean spoiled person. She's just like a rich Beverly Hills kid.
Gina (06:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (06:59)
who also is very nice. Yeah. No, I love her. I love Cher. I'm so happy you love it. I'm so happy you love it. That is one that I'm like, I would actually be legit sad if you hated the movie, because that's like a core, like.
Gina (07:01)
Yeah, yep. Huge fan. Absolutely adored it.
I don't know how you can hate it.
Kathryn (07:17)
I feel like snobs hate it. Snobs who like don't understand how smart it is. Snobs who think that it's not good because it stars like a rich blonde girl or like is about a rich blonde girl. You know what I mean? Like those people hate it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I love Clueless so much. It's so good. I'm so happy you like it.
Gina (07:29)
Well...
They're not our people anyway.
It's, Well, thank you for inspiring me to watch
it, because now it's one of my faves.
Kathryn (07:45)
my god, you're welcome.
It's funny, because after you told me that you had watched it, was thinking about how, like, because we talk all the time about how, we don't.
know like surface level things about each other and we really do. The funny thing is just like a lot of our surface level stuff is not, it doesn't overlap at all. Like your favorite movies are more akin to like the stuff like Phil watched when he was a teenager. I will never forget when I learned you both loved that fucking movie what's it called like Baseketball or something.
Gina (08:02)
Mm-hmm.
Baseketball?
Well, yes. Great film. Cinematic masterpiece.
Kathryn (08:25)
Like that was one of those things
when I first watched that with Phil I was like I genuinely have no idea what I'm like Genuinely don't remember what that movie is about. I just remember Phil was laughing so hard It was like alarming to me and then I think I was like making fun of it one day and you were like my god, that's one of my favorite movies. I was like what I Genuinely don't know what that movie is about ⁓
Gina (08:30)
You
⁓ Yeah, Tom, I tried
to, Tom and had the same experience, but he was in your shoes. I think he fell asleep before it even ended. did not. ⁓
Kathryn (08:53)
Yeah.
That's my thing. I think I did too. I don't remember that
movie. just remember... I just remember being like, yeah, this seems like something Phil would like.
Gina (09:06)
I thought it was so funny. They're deeply problematic, but my God, I love that movie.
Kathryn (09:09)
Yeah, you...
Yeah, I definitely feel like there, I mean, I've said this a million times, that you and Phil are way more similar than either one of you is willing to ever admit.
Gina (09:25)
I'll
admit it, we're the same person, love you. I also do have to call out, I have one of those coughs where if I laugh too hard, I'll start coughing. So if my coughs sound like ha ha ha ha, it's not that I don't think you're not funny, it's that I'm trying to not die. ⁓
Kathryn (09:30)
Let's move on.
Yeah. Okay.
I promise I'll
keep my overwhelming humor under wraps for this one. This is a very, very, very funny episode.
Gina (09:53)
Thank you so much. Thank you.
As much as I want to keep talking about ⁓ the fact that my lungs are waging war on me, I do have a question about today's topic. How do you pronounce it?
Kathryn (10:08)
Okay, tell me.
Girl, stop, because I was literally going to work this into the whole story and I decided against it. No, no, no. I will answer. The reason I chose to leave it out is because I am going to rant, dear listeners, about the pronunciation of this word. It was mostly brought to my attention.
Gina (10:18)
⁓ never mind. Okay.
Okay.
Kathryn (10:35)
from my dear husband Phil that I was quote pronouncing it wrong because I was pronouncing it hodag which is how the majority of the country pronounces it if you are to visit the great state of Wisconsin particularly the northern part where this cryptid is from we'll get into that ⁓ it is most likely going to be pronounced hodeg
Gina (11:05)
Mmm, yeah.
Kathryn (11:07)
You
Gina (11:11)
I knew it! I knew you were gonna do something like that! ⁓ my god!
Kathryn (11:13)
So...
We're not laughing at your accent, Northern Wisconsin. We're simply communicating what is true. And that is, mean genuinely, it's pronounced hodeg here. I will be saying hodag because I am on a personal journey to continue fighting what is becoming a Wisconsin accent in my own voice. So to encourage my Illinoisan accent to stay with me...
I will be saying Hodag. Okay? All right. Yes, by the end of the episode, I'm going to be like, yeah, so up there in Rhinelander where the Hodags from, ⁓ which is lovely and wonderful, and we love you all. Let's get into it. So as I said, today we're heading to Northern Wisconsin, and this story takes place primarily in the late
Gina (11:48)
Okay, excellent. I'm glad that I asked and I'm glad we're ignoring it.
yeah.
You
Kathryn (12:14)
This area is dense trees. We're talking to endless trees, swamps, long, cold, blizzardy winters. it's still to this day a very wooded area. This is logging country and...
in logging country, one of the most important tools that loggers had and still have to this day is the sharing of legends about the beasts that stalk the woods. This is something we've talked about in honestly many episodes at this point. I feel like it's giving Dogman, kind of, when I was looking into it. yeah, logging traditions go like very far back and was very prominent in this region.
Gina (12:46)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (12:56)
And they wouldn't just share these stories as entertainment to pass the long days, they would share them for camaraderie and building community, getting to know each other. Gotta build trust if you're like trapped in the woods for very long days, often overnight.
Arguably the most important reason people would share these stories when they were out in their logging camps was for protection.
there were, like we said previously, several beasts that stalked the woods. And one of the most famous local legends we have here in Wisconsin is that of the Hodag So the Hodag was originally discovered in, like I said, the late 1800s near the Pelican River.
just outside of the town of Rhinelander. And Rhinelander is your typical Northwoods town. It has a population of roughly 800. That would also be typical. 8,000. 8,000 people. Honestly, I know. I know. There's several towns up there that have like two people in it. But what's funny about this one, it has had 8,000 people, no more, no less, for the last 35 years. Like...
Gina (13:57)
I believed 800. I was like sure
Wow,
that's impressive.
Kathryn (14:12)
Yes.
Yeah, it's just remained consistent all this time. It has numerous rivers that run through it, and it's surrounded by lakes and obviously forest. And fun fact, it is known, at least regionally, as the ice fishing capital of the world. And I believe that this is where, or near where, my dad goes on an ice fishing trip every year.
Gina (14:40)
nice.
Kathryn (14:41)
Yes, it's like a tournament or something. don't know. Both of my parents go out. My mom does not fish. It's like the men go out ice fishing. The women like hang out and drink, which sounds actually like a good time. Yes. So one of the biggest industries in Rhinelander is manufacturing, most notably paper, because obviously of all of the trees surrounded by it. And historically it's
has always been a huge logging community. So the logging culture runs deep in this town and surrounding areas. real strong Northwoods vibes like straight up Laura Ingalls, Little House in the Big Woods, like that is what you can imagine.
like I said, one of the biggest reasons loggers would tell these stories is for protection, but there also was this kind of like sub sub category of a purpose for these stories, and that was kind of a moral aspect as well. And one of the most famous oral traditions that started circulating around this area in this time was that of Paul Bunyan, which
Gina (15:50)
you
Kathryn (15:51)
We'll talk extensively more about later, but just to kind of like dip our toes in, when you hear about Paul Bunyan, you also likely hear about Babe, his big blue ox. Do you remember those stories? you like remember any of like the, did you tell those when you were little or hear them?
Gina (16:10)
So I definitely heard them. I do always get Johnny Appleseed and Paul Bunyan confused, but since you clarified with babe, I think I don't remember what he did. He was just like a big guy, I think. But you said we'll get into it.
Kathryn (16:16)
Okay. Yeah. That's it.
He was a giant, yes.
Well, yeah, this is all valid because this is, we'll get into that confusion a little more later. But basically, Paul Bunyan was a giant and he had his big blue ox who was also a giant. And he was a logger, that was it. He was just this lumberjack that did things. There was folklore about him. He was a children's story.
that was shared and there wasn't anything specific to his storyline other than he was kind of this, I don't know what phrase you would use, maybe like a hallmark of like logging lore, but for nonloggers. You know, it was just like Americana character type deal, which is why you would get him confused with Johnny Appleseed. So.
Gina (17:06)
Okay
Yeah, okay.
Kathryn (17:18)
All of that is to say it's not, while it's shared amongst children and for children, it's not necessarily just a cutesy little story for the kids. The story is also a way to share basically what life was like as a logger at the time. And Oxen played a crucial role in logger's lives and, you know, obviously career success, if you will.
They're the reason that loggers were able to get the trees and logs, etc, efficiently and effectively. They basically were trucks, tractors, and trailers before trucks, tractors, and trailers existed.
Gina (18:00)
Wait, I just heard truck sounds coming from outside of your house when you were talking about trucks. That's wild. It's a sign. Paul, is that you? Babe?
Kathryn (18:04)
You did, yes. There's a truck outside. Yes, there's a truck sitting outside right now. I was wondering if you could, Paul! Babe, the big blue ox, have you come? I'm just imagining myself hopping on,
the big blue ox and riding off into the sunset with Paul Bunyan in a platonic friendly way, just so you know. ⁓
Gina (18:23)
like, oof oof. ⁓ okay.
Kathryn (18:32)
But yes, I mean, that is, yes, they were the trucks, they were the farm equipment and woodland equipment before all of these things existed. And one of their main roles was dragging fallen trees out of the forest, especially in really rough terrain where they could essentially handle obstacles significantly better and more efficiently than horses or donkeys could. it was kind of one of those experiences where
like the they were tools for the loggers but also kind of workmen themselves like they were kind of revered and they were loved by their loggers basically like they were the reason that these loggers were able to put food on the table they deserved respect from their caretakers and workers etc
What happens when one of these valuable and treasured creatures is treated with cruelty? As legend would have it, a Hodag is born. So the way the story goes is when an ox was mistreated by a logger or like worked too hard, not cared for properly, etc. etc. And then more specifically
If the logger improperly disposed of the ox after its death, so like just dumped somewhere versus giving it a proper respectful burial, something twisted would rise from its remains. It is said that seven years after the ox's death, a hodag would claw its way out of the ox's remains. That whatever was left of the ox would basically transform into the hodag.
And the Hodag was out for revenge against the logger who had mistreated the ox that it came from. The problem is, when a Hodag is born and looking to find revenge on a logger, he doesn't know exactly who it was. He's just looking for loggers. So no logger or woodsman or whatever is safe from the Hodag's wrath.
You don't want a Hodag to come for you because it is unlike any creature anywhere in the Northwoods. According to eyewitness accounts, which we will also get to later, the Hodag has the head of a frog, red glowing eyes, which seems to be a common theme for cryptids, thick curved horns, and a back full of
don't totally agree with the whole head of a frog situation. This was all stated in a newspaper originally. I don't totally agree with that. To me it kind of just looks like a mix between a lizard and some kind of weird dinosaur and like a bulldog. It's like a funny creature. I don't know. Either way, not something that you want to encounter in the middle of the woods at night.
Gina (21:24)
Okay.
Kathryn (21:32)
especially when it's out for revenge.
So this is the story that's circulating in the Northwoods in the 1890s. And by 19, not 19, what? By 1893, the Hodag wasn't just this ghost story that people would share. It was something that people had claimed to capture.
Gina (21:42)
Hehe.
Kathryn (21:51)
A group of men, led by a local surveyor named Eugene Shepard, went into the woods one day specifically to see if they could find the beast, and apparently they were able to finally track it down near the river in Rhinelander, the Pelican River that we mentioned earlier. According to the story, the creature was so dangerous and put up such a violent fight that they had no choice but to kill it using dynamite. That detail is in
Gina (22:17)
I can't.
Kathryn (22:18)
Exactly, I know, isn't that so extreme? That detail is extremely important for two reasons. One, the Hodag was real, like, you know, people were like, oh shit, you killed a Hodag with dynamite? Okay, they really exist. Not only was it real, but it was real enough to like fight and fight aggressively. But secondly,
Gina (22:20)
cheese
Kathryn (22:43)
that told people that it was powerful enough and dangerous enough that the only way to get rid of it was to blow it to smithereens, right? Like that's an extremely aggressive way to like get, need to get rid of an animal, basically. So this was extreme and outrageous. And newspapers, of course, ran this story. Illustrations of this beast followed, and more importantly than illustrations,
Gina (22:53)
Jeez.
You
Kathryn (23:11)
There is a regionally famous photo of the group of men who found it actually surrounding the animal.
in this photo, the Hodag is much smaller than one might expect. In illustrations and stories, it's described as being a giant beast that's like a thousand plus pounds. But in the photo, it shows just a tiny little guy that kind of looks, in my opinion, like an ugly fat puppy. Very much bulldog vibes.
Gina (23:38)
Aww. ⁓
Kathryn (23:41)
In a cute
way, I love an ugly fat puppy.
The photo gave a lot of credence to this legend. A picture is worth a thousand words, especially in the 1890s when photography was relatively brand-spaken new. People had no reason to question the validity of this image. So once people saw this photo, it was like, my God, suddenly the Hodag wasn't just this campfire legend. It was a full-on, like, whole ass monster.
with a name and proof of its existence and its reputation kind of just grew. So this Eugene guy, the one who led all of the guys into the woods, kind of became a local legend. He became known as the man who led the team who defeated the great big beasts of kind of thing. Like he was a local hero, basically.
And not only did he defeat the beast that he found in 1893, but he also claimed to actually capture a different Hodag three years later in 1896. And at that outing or whatever, he had this big group of bear wrestlers that I didn't know was a thing. Is that like a thing? That like, I don't know. I didn't know there was like enough of them in Rhinelander, Wisconsin that they could like put together a group of them.
Gina (24:48)
⁓ okay.
Kathryn (24:58)
to go hunting.
Gina (24:59)
That's what surprises... Well, that
and also the fact that if you're putting together a team... Well, I guess if you're putting together a monster hunting team, bear wrestlers would be good to have. It just never occurred to me that any of that really has ever occurred to me. Never.
Kathryn (25:09)
That's fair.
Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe they're not just like a bunch of local bear wrestlers. Maybe he like found them and brought them in. He put out an ad and like a personal ad. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Like, what were those called? Is that what they were called?
Gina (25:21)
He had to put an ad in the paper.
Wait, man-fucking-bear
wrestler sounds so sexual.
Kathryn (25:34)
Sounds like
a good time if you ask me. I love that for him. Actually, let's tell that story. Can I real quick change the rest of this story to fit that narrative? ⁓ my God. Wait, I actually love that. I did not put two and two together when I was putting my notes together. I love that version of the story. Is this whole thing just written in code? Is this a subliminal message that we're sending out into the universe? Love that.
Gina (25:42)
Yes, absolutely. History is ours for the taking.
Yeah.
I'm not subliminal
anymore. ⁓
Kathryn (26:02)
No, it's not. It's extremely overt.
Anyway, I'm so like, let's just keep all of this in mind throughout the rest of the story and see where this takes us emotionally.
So this time, Eugene and the Bear Wrestlers were able to overpower the Hodag without needing to blow it up with dynamite. I'm sorry.
Gina (26:23)
That is a wild
sentence!
Kathryn (26:27)
It gets wilder. I'm so sorry. I hate this context now. So the reason they were able to capture it is because they attached... I really can't laugh at this. I'm sorry. It has to do with chloroform. I'm sorry. I hate this so much. my God. I like don't even want to go into like details about this now.
Gina (26:30)
Okay.
my god!
Kathryn (26:47)
So what they did is they soaked a rag and a sedative, attached it to a stick and like put it into the Hodag's cave. And that's how they were able to like put it to sleep, grab it. And from there, they basically kept it in captivity, they mostly being Eugene. And what he did was
Essentially, he put it on display for people to come see, most notably at the Oneida County Fair that summer. So people came from far and wide. This was like a ginormous breakthrough. Like this guy who claimed to have found a Hodag and destroyed a Hodag previously now has one in his possession that you could come see. Literally thousands of people came.
to observe this monster that Eugene had saved them from because basically the way people were viewing it is like this is one less hodag in the woods that we need to be afraid of. Word spread so widely that a team of Smithsonian scientists announced that they were going to travel to Rhinelander to see this unbelievable scientific discovery. This is real. This like really happened.
Gina (28:09)
my god.
Kathryn (28:11)
So like Eugene was a scientific hero, he was also a rich scientific hero because he was charging each and every fair goer a very pretty penny to see this captured hodag. Mm-hmm, indeed. But beyond the money and the notoriety for discovering this legendary animal, who exactly was Eugene Shepherd? Quick background, Eugene was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin in 1854.
Gina (28:20)
huh.
Mm, hmm.
Kathryn (28:41)
and he spent his childhood in a very small town called New London a little ways outside of the city. Yeah, probably very similar to the one you're thinking of, whoa! And in 1885, he moved up to Rhinelander, and that's when he started working as a surveyor, and he was a timber cruiser for a bunch of different lumber companies in the area. Before he became the hero,
Gina (28:49)
That's nice. yeah, hello. What?
Kathryn (29:10)
who discovered the Hodag, he was most known as a practical jokester who recounted many of the original Paul Bunyan stories that were circulating at the time. And he was also a kind of a cartoonist and he would work with the local newspapers and he created numerous Paul Bunyan sketches and cartoons and stories that would appear in those newspapers.
He was a humorist, essentially. He was always up for a laugh, loved joking with people, loved having a good time. What do humorists do? They love a good old prank. What would be one of the best pranks in the region at this time be if you were able to convince an entire community slash country that you had found the hodag?
Gina (30:00)
That is kind of That is really funny.
Kathryn (30:02)
That's so fucking funny. That's fantastic. And I wish it had been me. Yes.
we would later learn that basically all of the quote local legends about the Hodag that had been shared amongst loggers and the community, et cetera, were really just started by Eugene. Yes. Some argue that that's not true, that these were like generational tales that loggers
you know, feared and fretted over. This was like an ancient thing that you had to be scared of in the Northwoods, but that is simply not true. When this became national news and like the scientists got wind of this story and got involved, Eugene was the first to own up to the fact that this was just a prank. Like he was like, shit, the Smithsonian's coming. Like I have to.
admit that this was just a joke, like there is no actual Hodag. It was all just a silly little prank that kind of got out of hand and spread further than he probably expected it to. We would later learn that the Hodag that he had on display that people actually really saw was just put together using animal hides and like mechanics. He had like wires and stuff going through it. It was basically a giant puppet. Yeah.
Gina (31:17)
my god.
Kathryn (31:19)
But people didn't know any better because, you know, I don't know how close he had people get to it and just all that, like, he tricked people. And it could have also been one of those things where people came from far and wide and then once they were there, it was like, ⁓ it was a joke. You know, I don't know if it was, there's not a lot of details on that. I tried to see how far the story went, but there is kind of this air of mystery around this story because...
Gina (31:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (31:46)
The legend's only lasted for three years. This whole story takes place from 1893 to 1896 because that's when the jig was up. So there's not a lot of detail on exactly how much people believed him, but people believed him enough for the legend to spread to the Smithsonian, basically.
But he did not do it alone. He was not the only one involved in this. Remember, there was a whole group of men slash bear wrestlers in on this because who could forget? I never will. But he needed people for that picture and he needed people to like help back him up to tell the story and all that kind of stuff. So it wasn't just him. He was definitely the leader of the pack. But like there were others involved in the story. And one of the men who was involved
Gina (32:10)
could forget.
You
Kathryn (32:31)
in this and was kind of credited as a co-creator of the Hodag is a man named Luke Sylvester Kearney and he wrote a book of stories called The Hodag and Other Tales of Logging Camps which was published in 18 sorry it was published in 1928 so like roughly 30-ish years later and it was a collection of stories it was a collection of quote-unquote folk tales
The stories painted the Hodag as an actual ancient animal that was a mix between two creatures that really do exist or really did exist. One, okay bear with me on the pronunciations. I practice these extensively but I don't know how it's gonna go. The Mylodon which is a type of sloth that went extinct around 10,000 years ago and...
Gina (33:18)
Okay.
⁓
is that the really really big, like crazy big sloth?
Kathryn (33:27)
I don't know if it's the giant sloth, but it is some type of ground sloth. It could be, but I'm not positive. It could be. Well, say yes or no in the YouTube video, whether or not it was. But I didn't see the size in the description of it. I just know it's an ancient ground sloth. No, it's valid, because I thought the same thing. I did try to see, but.
Gina (33:30)
Okay, got it.
Yeah, sorry, it's neither here nor there. was just, I got excited. Sorry, continue please.
Kathryn (33:56)
That's like a type, that's like an era of animal species that is like so far over my head. I don't know what's what. You know, I like it probably said the size of my brain was just like, what? But the other thing that it's mixed with, this is the one I'm so sorry. I think, okay, hold on. Icthia, ichthyosaurus? Icthia, thorus, ichthyosaurus? Something like that, I don't know. It's a prehistoric aquatic dinosaur thingy.
Gina (34:02)
That's fair.
Hehehe
Kathryn (34:24)
I don't know, it kind of looks like a giant swordfish in my opinion, but like, if you're a scientist, don't come for me. My understanding of animals is very limited. that's basically it's basically a sloth. Fish lizard looking thingy. So he's describing this quote ancient animal in this book. And he also claimed in this book that he was writing that there was proof.
Gina (34:28)
cute
Kathryn (34:53)
of the existence of this creature as far away and as long ago as in King Tut's tomb. I know! So, yes, he claimed that the Hodag and this like combination weird hybrid Mylodon ichthylobola-saurus thingy was the same species as an animal that the ancient Egyptians called the Selblitki?
Gina (35:00)
What?
Kathryn (35:22)
and he claimed that there was proof of this animal like etched into the walls of King Tut's tomb. Which, spoiler alert, there is not. This was not actually a real animal, but this book was published very shortly after the discovery of the tomb. Shout out to Curse of the Pharaoh's episode. And around this time here in America, and really throughout the rest of the century,
A lot of people took advantage of the discovery of this tomb and the kind of like magical mystery aura around Egypt in general. And they use it as a storytelling device to prove certain things were true because no one here in America was fact checking what people were discovering in Egypt. Like the layman community members, like if someone seemingly smarter than you said, like, this is what
these markings mean. Like, no one had any reason to not believe it, you know? So, like I said, this book was published nearly 30 years after the Hodag, but shortly after the discovery of King Tut's tomb. So it was kind of this weird mix of we know they said that this animal wasn't real, but there's no new proof that maybe it was. People started kind questioning,
what if? is this something that really existed and maybe Eugene just was trying to fake that he found this real animal and faked it and blah blah blah blah blah. So it kind of like there was a resurgence of this quote, hodag folktale story spreading, ⁓ but none of it was actually true.
This type of story, something that is like brand new and made up, but made to seem like something that is old or, you know, a tradition, something that's been around for generations and generations, is a storytelling device referred to appropriately as, quote, fake lore instead of folklore. And I know I loved that. I knew you were going to like this is my favorite part. This is the part I was excited to tell you. So.
Gina (37:38)
I like that.
Very good.
Kathryn (37:45)
This term was originally coined by an American folklorist named Richard M. Dorson back in 1950 when he wrote an article called Folklore vs. Fake Lore for the magazine The American Mercury. One of the main examples that he gave for fake lore is that of Paul Bunyan. So the origins of the Paul Bunyan legend
And it'll make sense why I'm bringing Paul Bunyan back in a second. The origins of his story are heavily debated. ⁓ His stories reference the Northwoods, so pretty much every northern state in America that has woods claims him as their own. If you look up his birthplace or like where his stories originated, it can be anywhere from Maine to Minnesota to Michigan or Wisconsin. A lot of people do say that he is a Great Lakes story.
but there are other Northern states that still claim, it's kind of like Bigfoot, like everywhere with woods has a Bigfoot, you know what I mean? So a lot of Northern states will claim him as their own and there is no one specific place that he's from. His stories, the oral stories can't really be traced. But for Wisconsin specifically, one of the...
Gina (38:49)
you
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (39:11)
earliest known references to him came from a town called Tomahawk, which is just 30 minutes from Rhinelander. Despite the debate about where he actually came from, the first known printed version of his story was in a newspaper in Michigan in 1893, the same year that our friend Eugene quote, discovered
Gina (39:21)
Hmm?
Kathryn (39:38)
the first Hodag. If you remember, Eugene was also known locally as someone who shared the Paul Bunyan stories. He's like one of the ones who is credited for bringing him to the region of Wisconsin. So why are we talking about Paul Bunyan? I will explain myself now. So these references between the Hodag and Paul Bunyan don't seem to be intertwined more than just they are both considered versions of fake lore, but
Fun fact, the Hodag appeared in many oral versions of Paul Bunyan's early stories. And I don't know for a fact, some people claim that there are written versions, like early stories ⁓ of Paul Bunyan that feature the Hodag as well. I was not able to find any. I don't know if they appear in this book that this Kearny guy wrote.
I wasn't able to track down a copy. It's like really hard to find if anyone knows where to find the Hodag-Paul Bunyan stories. Icecreamuscremepotatgmo.com that would just like make my life. ⁓ So I don't have proof that there were printed versions of these stories, but it is said that there were oral stories that included the Hodag. So there was like all these fake lore, logger tradition stories kind of circulating around at the same time.
And to your point earlier, there was kind of a little bit of confusion about Paul Bunyan, whether or not he really was based on an actual American logging hero, or if he was just 100 % made up. A lot of kids not just confuse him, they don't just confuse him with Johnny Appleseed, they confuse him with all of these names.
that are kind of thrown around, some guys are real, some guys are not real, and it's all quote American folklore, some of it's real folklore, some of it's fake lore. It's just this whole mess of is it real, is it not real, and the Hodag very much falls into that camp. So it's a weird, it is a cryptid, it is very much understood it's not real, but for many years it was like, I don't know, is it a real animal or is it not a real animal?
Gina (41:59)
Yeah.
Kathryn (42:02)
Even though the legend of the Hodag only lasted a few short years before it was kind of understood to not be real, that resurgence in, you know, 1928 into the 1930s when people were like questioning this story that was published in this book, it kind of made people go back and think, OK, I don't know if there really is something out there or if there's not something out there. And it was kind of at that point that it
switched a little bit from fake lore into actual folklore and now, you know, whatever century has passed, it is now considered folklore because it really did affect the loggers in the area, you know? So was kind of like... Yeah, it was kind of like a... I don't even know what you would call that, like an accidental folktale? I don't know. I don't know what the term is for it. It started as
Gina (42:48)
fascinating.
Kathryn (43:01)
fake lore and it stayed in the local, you know, canon and now we can say this actually is a real folktale. I just think that's fantastic. I love that for him.
Gina (43:13)
Fantastic
that that says so much about how much humans love stories like that has a purity to it that I really enjoy even though it's you know We know that it's a fake the fact that humans are still like But it's it's folklore because it's a story that we tell each other and therefore it is folklore because it's a fun story to tell I like that a lot
Kathryn (43:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And it, mean, that people very much still tell it, not necessarily loggers, maybe local loggers still tell it. I don't know. But certainly people will like try to scare children and, you know, neighbors will be like, watch out for the hodag. We went to, ⁓ what's it called? Old World, Wisconsin last year for my birthday. And it's like a Halloween.
And there's this one part where you could it's like a walk through the haunted woods and they have this big giant mechanical hodag and then there's this like old-timer that tells you the story of the hodag like it's very much real and around and it's like a real folktale that people share and of course as would be expected to this day the legend of the hodag is ryan landers biggest claim to fame There are of course celebrations and festivals to be had
Gina (44:06)
Hmm.
Kathryn (44:28)
The Hodag Heritage Festival happens every spring. This year it's on May 16th and I'm still real bitter about Krampus Noct, so I'm nervous to say I want to try to go. But between you and me, wouldn't that be lovely? So I'm not going to say I'm going, but I would like to. I'm not going to put that on the universe because I don't want Karma to come get me, but I think that that would be really fun. Phil and I have talked about it and we do have plans.
Gina (44:43)
Hahaha
Kathryn (44:57)
to visit Rhinelander to see the fun that they have up there with the Hodag. But yeah, that's the story of the Hodag. It's kind of a, I mean, the whole thing is just a big giant question mark, but the things we do know, I think, are hilarious and silly and fun. And this is just such a weird story. It's such a strange cryptid. Yeah.
Gina (44:59)
Excellent.
That was absolutely
hilarious and silly and fun. When I say I love mischief and shenanigans, this is exactly what I'm talking about. The one bit that did go too far was taking people's money because that's when you just become a scam artist and a con man, which is also fun in a like...
Kathryn (45:28)
This is it. Yes. Yep.
Yes.
Gina (45:40)
Like funny to watch it in a movie like George Clooney Oceans 11 kind of way not in real life However, every other single part of what Eugene did absolutely hilarious 10 out of 10 I also have to go read everything I can about fake lore now. So thank you so much for that rabbit hole. I'm so excited
Kathryn (45:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Girl, listen, part of why it took me so long to research this episode is I fell down such a rabbit hole. I ended up looking into how to get a PhD in folklore at one point, and I was like, wow, I do not have money for this. ⁓ So on that note, if you want to go to patreon.com/iscreamyouscreampod then maybe we can do something. I don't know. No, it's fascinating. I had never heard. And it's one of those things like, yes, it makes
Gina (46:12)
Ha ha ha ha!
Kathryn (46:27)
I didn't know there was a term for that thing. Like my confusion about Paul Bunyan makes so much sense now because I have like a thing to call it. But it goes so deep. Because then it went into like who Paul Bunyan maybe was based on and like all of these other folktales in America that are actually fake lore. But now they're folklore? I don't know. It's like a whole thing. And so much fun. Highly recommend everyone going to like do a deep dive into that immediately.
Gina (46:56)
Hell yeah, we should do an episode on Paul Bunyan or Johnny Appleseed or something someday. Because I mentioned it to not too long ago. Because I was curious if American folklore ever made it over here and of course it hasn't, but I thought maybe it had. he was, so I was like, have you heard of Paul Bunyan? And he was like, no, who was he? And I was like, I don't know. Great question, let me, I'll get back to you on that.
Kathryn (47:10)
Yeah.
Like, good question. Let me get back to you. Yeah.
Yeah, he was just a giant one. That was the thing. That's why it was always quote unquote clear he's not real, because he's a giant. He's a giant guy. But he's a lumberjack. And maybe he's like really based on just a large man. I don't know. It's like a whole thing. Yeah.
Gina (47:30)
Mmm.
Well, we'll find out someday. Well, thank you very much. Aw, yay, hordag. Thank you very much for that research. That was excellent.
Kathryn (47:44)
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's the whole dig. You're welcome.
You're welcome. Do you have something to spook me with?
Gina (48:02)
I do.
So the scary on top that I have for you today is incredibly short, but I think it will become very obvious why I picked it it is either a classic or it's very close to a classic that I'm sure you are familiar with and heard in your youth. It is called The Statue and it is by an unknown author.
Kathryn (48:10)
Okay.
Gina (48:28)
A few years ago, a mother and father decided they needed a break. They wanted to head out for a night on the town, so they called their most trusted babysitter. When the babysitter arrived, the two children were already fast asleep in bed, so the babysitter had to just sit around and make sure everything was okay with them. Later that night, the babysitter got bored and went to watch TV, but she couldn't watch it downstairs because they didn't have cable there. The parents didn't want
the children watching too much garbage. So she called the parents and asked if she could watch cable in the parents' room. Of course, the parents said it was okay, but the babysitter had one final request. she asked if she could cover up the angel statue outside the bedroom window with a blanket or a cloth because it made her nervous. The phone line went silent for a moment.
The father, who was talking to the babysitter at the time, said, take the children and get out of the house. We'll call the police. We don't own an angel statue.
The police found both of the children and the babysitter slumped in pools of their own blood within three minutes of the call. No statue was found.
Kathryn (49:48)
Ewwww... What?
Gina (49:50)
Did you, have you ever
heard a version of this when you were a kid?
Kathryn (49:53)
So I've heard a version of this, but not when I was a kid. I heard a clown version of this story.
Gina (50:00)
Me too. Okay, that's why I picked this because I was like, maybe I was confusing because in my in the version I always heard growing up, it was like the clown statue, but it was also always in the same story with the licking of the hand.
Kathryn (50:04)
Yes.
Okay, yeah, the... I thought you were gonna tell the hand licking story when you mentioned, because that's the one I remember from childhood. Yeah, I don't... I didn't hear the clown one when I was little. I have heard it as an adult though. Ugh! Ooh, that's horrendous because, like, I feel like the angel is...
Gina (50:21)
Mm.
I know, horrible, right?
Kathryn (50:44)
somehow so much more ominous than a clown because like
Gina (50:48)
Yeah.
Kathryn (50:49)
there's some religious trauma in there somewhere. You know what I mean? Whoever made that is rectifying with something.
Gina (50:52)
And there's more of like a
subversion of expectations thing because angels are supposed to not like murder people and stuff. Yeah.
Kathryn (50:58)
Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. Ooh, that, yeah, that's scary.
Gina (51:03)
Yeah, I should have said it. I did
not. I forgot to say that this is like this is not a listener story. I hope that nobody thought that it was true until we got to the my God, that was a creepy pasta what I just read. So sorry. Should have trigger warned. Right, Jesus. But yes, a classic oldie but a goodie. I wanted to bring it back.
Kathryn (51:12)
I mean, yeah, I, yeah. my God, can you imagine?
We've got people like calling the police right now. Like someone's not safe. Yeah, okay. Wow.
Yeah, that was That's creepy. I don't like that.
You know what else was horrendous and short was that? Red eye one that keyhole one you told I think of that all the time Yeah, I think of that all the time
Gina (51:35)
You're so very welcome.
Yeah, that was horrendous. my god, that's still bleh. Yeah.
That's very creepy. Yeah.
Kathryn (51:50)
Yeah, well thank you. That was wonderful.
Gina (51:52)
No problem. Well, thank you again so much for the story.
If any of you have a story that you would like us to read on the podcast, feel free to send it to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com It doesn't have to be on theme with the month. So if you have a story that's not related to cryptids, feel free to send it in January and we would still love to read it. And that's kind of the end of that. So anyway, until next time little spoons, keep it cool.
Kathryn (52:16)
and keep it creepy.
