Ep. 55: The Circleville Letters
Kathryn (00:10)
I was just about to start talking about my menty b, but I will hold off. Anyway, should I just jump in? Can that be our intro? Hi, everyone. Welcome to I Scream You Scream. We are your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries and paranormal perplexities. My name is Kathryn.
Gina (00:17)
I love that phrase. Yes please.
I'm Gina.
Kathryn (00:34)
And this is Cinnamon, she's all up in my space today so if you see her she says hello. The topic that we have been discussing for November is small towns and we've been enjoying our favorite ice cream from our favorite local places. would love to give a very quick shout out to some of our new Patreon members. So hello to Karen and Eric, thank you so much for being part of the community.
And if you would like a shout out on the podcast, additional perks, benefits, behind the scenes stuff, ⁓ all good things, feel free to join our Patreon. Link will always be in the show notes. ⁓ And until you join Karen and Eric and us over at Patreon, go ahead and grab a spoon and let's dig in.
Gina (01:24)
So what are you having today? Is it the same one?
Kathryn (01:26)
So I was going to switch it up because we also have a cherry chocolate one. Wait, which one did I have last time? The cookie dough or cherry chocolate? Okay, yeah, so I was gonna, we have two pints, cherry chocolate and cookie dough, and I was going to switch it up because the cherry chocolate is also good, but this cookie dough is bomb. The deeper you get, the more cookie dough is in it. So it's...
Gina (01:33)
I don't remember. I feel kind of bad about it. ⁓ no, it was cookie dough, I think.
I like that.
Kathryn (01:55)
It's an A plus cookie dough to ice cream ratio. And we've kept the cherry off camera. That's what we have. Not for the podcast. That's when Phil is allowed to also enjoy. Yeah.
Gina (01:59)
That's private ice cream. It's nobody's business.
So I want to ask about the cookie dough texture. Is the texture good? Good. OK, sorry.
Kathryn (02:17)
Mm-hmm. Horrible.
I just got a big glob of cookie dough. literally almost choked on it. I'm not used to needing to chew it because there's usually so little. it's good. It tastes like real fresh cookie dough that they put into ice cream. Yes, it's good. Good job, scratch ice cream. Yep. Yeah. What do you have?
Gina (02:23)
Mm-hmm
Hell yeah. Nice. Okay, because that's a make or break. Fuck yeah. I'm having New Forest ice cream today and it is their mint chocolate chip flavor and I'm a big fan.
Kathryn (02:43)
Hmm.
Gina (02:47)
Can't go wrong.
Kathryn (02:47)
Sorry, it’s so true.
I didn't think that scoop even had cookie dough in it, hold on.
Gina (02:57)
It's the mark of a good cookie dough ice cream. It sneaks on you.
Kathryn (02:58)
I know, yeah. Yeah, I know you're a mint chip person. I myself am not. I do think, I will say, I think there's a difference between like a fresh batch mint chip versus, I don't know, I feel like that's one that I would be more inclined to get it at a local ice cream shop versus like a cheap little pint from
Gina (03:21)
Mmm.
Kathryn (03:26)
Big box ice cream. Big ice cream. Some big ice cream garbage.
Gina (03:28)
Big ice cream.
Well, it's like, it's like how we've talked about the difference between strawberry flavoring and actual strawberry. Same with mint. Like, there's mint flavoring and then there's actual mint.
Kathryn (03:36)
Yes. Yep. I agree.
Yes. Yes. And I don't know how much... don't know how much fresh mint ice cream I've ever actually had.
That's it, that's all.
Gina (03:49)
haha
Me neither, to be honest. I wanna try making ice cream with mint sometime though, because I haven't tried making mint chocolate chip and I totally should, because I don't think it's that hard.
Kathryn (03:58)
Yeah.
It can't be, right? I don't think so. Whoops.
Gina (04:03)
Right? Famous last words. Cut to me a week from now calling you crying because the mint was mean to me.
Kathryn (04:09)
You're trying to make it...
You get on FaceTime and you're just like covered in ice cream. There's fresh mint leaves everywhere. ⁓ my god. my goodness.
Gina (04:15)
I can't.
I'm boarding the plane to come see you in tears holding my melted ice cream.
I do have to ask, I noticed you have a note to talk to me about Spirit Halloween. What's up with that?
Kathryn (04:35)
Oh God, okay.
So it's not about Spirit Halloween. That's just, I'm really bad at putting notes in that will be something I remember. The story is actually about my niece. And I wanted to tell you, because I think that you'll think it's so sweet. I just love her so So for listeners, I mention my little niece all the time, but I've said this before, but I don't talk about my older niece very much because she's 13 and I don't want to be like that annoying aunt who's like...
Gina (04:45)
⁓ okay.
Kathryn (05:03)
Talking about her on her podcast, it's so embarrassing. So I don't really talk about her, but I have to share this story because it was the sweetest thing ever. She's just my, oh my God, she's my favorite 13 year old in the
So we always go to Spirit Halloween together every October and this year we got a late start. We only went a few days before Halloween as is the case since this is coming out end of November. ⁓ But we sometimes go a little crazy but we're never too crazy in there but I'll like...
You know, get her makeup for her Halloween costume or any little accessories. I never get her the full thing, but I'll do like the little extras and stuff like that. And this time I was finding a lot of really cute stuff in there and I'm trying to be more financially responsible. And if you are ever trying to be more financially responsible, don't take a 13 year old girl to spirit Halloween. That's all I have to say. Because this child, I'm wearing my little ghosty slippers that I got.
Gina (05:52)
Hehehehehe ⁓
Kathryn (06:01)
with her that she talked me into. I have this adorable little blanket that she talked me into. I got so much stuff, but it was so cute. I was really hemming and hawing and she could tell that I really want this blanket. I'll show, I'll share like a picture of it or something. It's this kind of pinky purpley like Ouija board planchette type. It's adorable and it's very me. And it's 100 % me. And she pointed it out. She was like, my God, that blanket is so you. You could snuggle up with.
Gina (06:01)
Hahaha
Very you.
Kathryn (06:29)
coffee and a book and blah, blah. She's like painting me this whole picture and I'm like, my God, you're so right. I need this blanket. But it was not cheap. It was like, I don't know. It was more than I needed to spend at Spirit Halloween. She looks at me. I was like, no, no, I don't need it, blah, blah, blah. She stops, stands up straight, looks me in the eye and goes, Auntie Katy, you deserve this blanket. And I was like, ⁓ my God, wait, I totally do. She was like.
Here, listen, I'll tell you what. And she leans in and goes, do you really want this blanket? Like really, you seriously want it real bad? And I was like, yeah, I really do. And she says, okay, hold on a second. Hey, Auntie Katy, can I please borrow some money so that I could get this blanket for someone that I really love and who deserves beautiful things? And I was like, yes, baby, you could have all the money you need for that.
Gina (07:24)
That was smart.
Kathryn (07:25)
So she bought me this blanket using my money. It was so sweet. like, she lea- cause she vibe checked. She was like, okay, like, is this an impulse buy that you're going to regret or are you like, is this actually going to make you happy? And she, it was just so sweet. And then, yeah, we, ⁓ we got the blanket, we got the slippers, we got God knows what else. I don't even know. She got like hair extensions. She's going to be a deer.
She's going to be a deer for Halloween and her best friend's going to be a hunter. So cute. So cute. But we got her these white extensions so that she could have little white streaks in her hair. And the antlers we got have flowers on them. It's really cute. She's going to be so adorable. Anyway, I just wanted to share that with you because I knew that you were going to love that. She's so like, she's very charming.
Gina (07:57)
Hehehehehaha!
I love that, very Wisconsin.
Cute, yeah.
Love it.
That's, and it's like a
genius sales technique too. That's so smart.
Kathryn (08:27)
I know! Yeah, she was like gassing me
up and then spending my money. That's how you do it.
Gina (08:32)
Okay, I, because I struggle with that with Tom all the time. Like he never spends money on himself ever. So I'm going to steal her strategy, because that's genius.
Kathryn (08:37)
Yeah.
Isn't that smart? She got me.
Because then there's this layer I'm not allowing her to feel joy by me being happy. Like, I don't know what she did or how she did it, but she did it. And I got that blanket. And I have no regrets. Yeah, so good. I just, I will. Yeah. Yes. It's so cute. Yeah. So that's all I have to say.
Gina (08:50)
Mm-hmm. Genius. My gosh, yeah, I wanna send me a picture when you have a second and the will, because it sounds cute as hell.
I didn't buy anything fun this week.
Kathryn (09:06)
There's still time. It's Tuesday! We record on Tuesdays!
Gina (09:07)
You're right.
In my head, this was like the end of the week. I was like, I've got no more chances. This is it for me. ⁓ my God, I love that.
Kathryn (09:21)
That's so funny. ⁓ my gosh.
But yeah, if you don't have any fun stories to share with me about Spirit Halloween, I'd love for you to tell me a lovely story.
Gina (09:34)
dude. OK, so this is one of those stories that the reason I was a tiny bit late joining today's recording is because I was downstairs ranting to Tom about this story, like trying to get. Yes. Yeah, literally. It's fucking twisty and windy and turny and wild. So this week we're going back to the Midwest again. Every single episode this month has been Midwestern, hasn't it? it was Kansas. Yeah.
Kathryn (09:45)
my god, really?
Yes, next week will not be though.
Yeah. Yeah, next week won't be. Yeah. We're leaving the Midwest next week. Ohio!
Welcome to Circleville
Gina (10:00)
Okay, so we'll have at least one. Okay. Well, today we're going to Ohio.
Ohio, in a little town called Circleville. And by little, I mean that in 2020, it had 14,000 residents. So not quite as small as like some of the places we've talked about, but still really quite tiny. It's like one of those places where a lot of people go there specifically for
that small town everyone knows everyone type of vibe. But this story is about what happens when the everyone knowing everyone thing goes horribly fucking wrong. Yeah. So quick content warning. I will be talking about murder, harassment, and I will mention ⁓ child abuse at one point.
Kathryn (10:37)
Mmm.
The first letter to Mary Gillespie
Gina (10:49)
The first victim in this story, of which there are many, was a woman named Mary Gillespie. In 1977, she was a school bus driver, and she lived in the Circleville area alongside her husband Ron and their two children. Nothing suspicious, nothing weird, just like normal Midwestern, quiet suburban family. One day, she went to go check her family's mail, like you do every fucking day.
And this time, there was something unexpected in her mailbox. Mary had received an anonymous letter postmarked from Columbus, Ohio, handwritten in big block letters accusing her of having an affair with a local school superintendent named Gordon Massie
Kathryn (11:36)
Oh my.
Gina (11:37)
I'm gonna read the letter to you because it's, I think it's very chilling. It said, this is the letter in its entirety. This is the whole thing. Stay away from Massie. Don't lie when questioned about meeting him. I know where you live. I've been observing your house and I know you have children. This is no joke. Please take it seriously. Everyone concerned has been notified and everything will be over soon.
Kathryn (12:05)
Ooh, that's a chilling last line.
Gina (12:08)
It's fucking scary. Yeah. So Mary is like, what the fuck? And she shows the letter to her husband, Ron, and she's like, I'm not having an affair with this Gordon guy. I don't know what this is about. This is like coming out of the blue. I don't know what to do. like weird, definitely scary. But her and Ron kind of both thought, well, maybe this is just like a weird, scary thing. Like maybe if we just ignore it, it'll go away. Maybe it's someone playing a prank. But later that month,
Kathryn (12:10)
my goodness.
Ron receives a letter
Gina (12:38)
Ron also received a letter. This time, it demanded that Ron report Mary's alleged affair to the school board. And just like the first letter, this one was also threatening. The writer gave details on the type of car that Ron drove, and like just made it clear that he was being watched. And it said that if Ron didn't do what the letter said,
the affair would be broadcasted on posters, signs, and billboards all over town and on the radio too, I think. still, and Ron are like, this is weird. We don't know what the fuck to do here. Let's try and keep this under wraps. Like try and keep it quiet because You don't want rumors like this circulating.
Meanwhile, Gordon Massie, the guy that she was allegedly having an affair with, also received a letter demanding that he confess the affair to the school board. And then the school board received a fucking letter. All of them are scary. All of them are threatening. All of them are anonymous. Mary and Ron decide, okay, maybe keeping this under wraps wasn't quite the right move. So they approach Ron's sister, whose name is Karen, and her husband, Paul, Paul Freshour.
And Mary was like, okay, all right, team, I think I know who this letter writer is. And she tells them about a fellow school bus driver named David Longberry, who had kind of like made a pass at her one time and she had rejected him. And Mary was like, okay, well, maybe it's him trying to get back at me for turning him down. And so he's just like stirring the pot. So Mary, Ron, Karen and Paul decide to write letters of their own to this David guy.
Just basically like, know who you are, we know what you're doing, cut it out, type shit. And at first, it seemed like it worked. The letters just kind of stopped.
The letters escalate
But after a few weeks, they came back with a fucking vengeance. There were more letters, more threats, scary phone calls to the Gillespie home, and now there were also signs being hung up in public, like on Mary's bus route.
Kathryn (14:51)
What?
Gina (14:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, all saying like similar things about this apparent affair and shit like that. ⁓ And also, the signs started to make really obscene and horrific statements about Mary and Ron's 12-year-old daughter. So it's expanding from just Mary and a little bit Gordon being the targets of this to like, no, even the children are being like threatened by whoever this person is.
Kathryn (14:58)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (15:19)
So like I said earlier, the signs were kind of placed along like the bus route that Mary took, but it was also the route that their daughter, the 12 year old took to get to school. So Ron starts waking up early every day to take these signs down so that his daughter doesn't see them and so that her classmates don't see them.
Kathryn (15:29)
Mm.
Oh, that's so sad. And this is like a regular thing, it's happening like every day. Thereabouts? Oh my god. Yikes.
Gina (15:42)
I know. Yeah. All the fucking time it's happening.
So Mary and Ron contacted the police, they started, the police started tapping their phone lines, they started watching houses. There is, there are reports that the police also tried to work with USPS to check the mail. I don't think that went very well. It's kind of hard to like find what actually happened there, but they did try, but it was insanely fucking hard to figure out.
Kathryn (15:54)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (16:15)
this person was. There were no like identifiable fingerprints, there were no real signs of who this could be, and all the letters or at least most of them were postmarked from Columbus which I think was 25 or 30 miles away from Circleville. So the pool of suspects was just a big question mark.
August 19, 1977
Cut to August 19th, 1977. So about five months after these letters had started arriving. Ron was at home when he got a phone call.
And to this day, we do not know who was on the other end or what the conversation was like. But when Ron hung up, he was furious. He told his family, because I think his kids were at home, he said that he recognized the caller's voice and he was going to go confront them. And he picked up his gun, got his car keys, and left the house. A few hours later, Ron's car was found crashed into a tree.
And Ron was found inside unresponsive.
When help arrived, ⁓ dude, yeah. When help did eventually arrive, he was declared dead at the scene at the age of just 35 years old. And underneath Ron's body, they found his gun with one round missing.
Kathryn (17:15)
Oh my God.
Gina (17:32)
There was no bullet casing on the scene, nothing to suggest that the gun had been fired nearby, but it had been fired at some point between Ron leaving the house and him dying in the car.
Kathryn (17:31)
What?
Hmm, suspicious.
Police investigation
Gina (17:45)
strange.
Very suspicious. And pretty much right away, the sheriff was like, yeah, this is fucking suspicious. We call foul play. So they sent Ron's body to the coroner for an examination. And they did wind up picking up a person of interest. And they brought them in for a polygraph test, which, you know, not great because we all know about polygraphs, but they did bring them in. And the person passed the polygraph test and was eventually let go. We still do not know who this person was.
Their name was never released.
So the police are back to square one, and now there's a dead body involved. And that's when the coroner's report came in. And it showed that Ron's blood alcohol content when he died was 0.16, which is very much over the legal limit. I think in Ohio at the time, it was 1 and half times the legal limit.
And this, combined with the passed polygraph test, caused the sheriff to change his tune. Suddenly, they weren't talking about murder or manslaughter anymore. It was just a drunk driving accident. Now it is worth noting that at this time, the sheriff, Sheriff Radcliffe was his name, was running for president of the National Sheriffs Association.
So there is an argument to be made that if the sheriff had pursued the foul play angle, it would have brought some negative publicity to his jurisdiction and hurt his chances of getting elected. So he did stand to personally and professionally benefit by sweeping this under the rug. And Paul fucking knew that. He called bullshit on this whole thing. He very vocally believed that the sheriff changed his mind just for the optics of it.
He also pointed out, and this was backed up by other members of the family as well, that Ron wasn't much of a drinker. when Ron did drink, like on occasions where he did partake, he very, very rarely did so in excess. Like he just was not a big fan of drinking. So being one and a half times the legal limit while driving was insanely uncharacteristic of Ron. It was really weird.
There is an argument to be made that desperate times lead people to do things that are uncharacteristic of them. But in the opinion of the people who knew Ron best, there was no way that Ron would just go get drunk and crash his car into a tree
Kathryn (20:09)
Going from not a big drinker at all to drunk driving in a violent, scary situation is kind of... that's a big leap. Like, yeah, that's a big jump.
Gina (20:20)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Kathryn (20:23)
People, you know what vice as a person has and like that's something the people closest to him would know whether or not that was strange. Yeah.
Gina (20:32)
Right, yes, exactly.
And then another letter came, accusing the sheriff of participating in a cover up.
Kathryn (20:40)
⁓ what the fuck?
The letters escalate (again)
Gina (20:41)
Mm-hmm.
And pretty soon, lots of people in Circleville were receiving letters. Civilians, newspapers, businesses, schools, everyone started receiving letters from whoever this anonymous person was. And these letters accused them of everything from embezzlement to domestic abuse to murder. Like basically, if you think of your deepest, darkest secrets that you would never want anyone knowing, this person somehow either knew about them or was accusing people of things just to like scare them. And this went on for fucking years.
Kathryn (21:21)
What? What is this story?
Gina (21:24)
It's fucking crazy, man. Okay, yes. So life kind of moved on after Ron's death, but also not really at all. Like, people were going about their business because they had to, but everyone had this kind of big, terrifying, looming weight over their heads of like,
And what am I going to get in the mail today? What do they know about? ⁓ What if I get accused of something that I didn't do and then other people hear about it and then everyone thinks that I'm guilty of something I'm not? Because like if you hear a rumor about somebody, a lot of times the default setting is to just believe it, even if you consciously think that it's not true. Like you just, you believe the things that you hear first. And a lot of the claims that the writer was making
Kathryn (22:02)
for sure.
Yeah.
Gina (22:11)
did seem to be pretty believable. I do hate to phrase it this way because I think it's more complicated than this. But one thing that really didn't help with the letters is that Mary and Gordon, the guy she was allegedly having an affair with, we don't know whether they were, they did wind up starting a romantic relationship after Ron died. So to a lot of people, that was like, letter writer
Kathryn (22:35)
Yeah.
Gina (22:36)
was correct. And Mary and Gordon, both swore that they only got together after Ron had died because they bonded over being like mutual targets of these letters. But to a lot of people, again, it was like, okay, well, they thought that they were actually having an affair.
Kathryn (22:52)
That's valid. I mean, and I'm also not accusing them. I don't know these people. I don't know the story at all. But knee-jerk reaction, any person is going to be like, huh, that's weird. Because that is, like a logical jump, you know? Doesn't prove anything, but it is, you know, yeah.
Gina (23:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I know that exactly.
Romance doesn't always have great timing, but this was really bad timing. Yeah. So these letters kept circulating. Real or fake secrets were being spread around, and the threats against Mary and her family were getting even worse.
Kathryn (23:17)
Yeah, that's valid.
Gina (23:30)
After Mary and Gordon went public with their relationship, Mary received a letter that threatened to shoot her daughter in the head.
Kathryn (23:39)
What? What the F?
February 7, 1983
Gina (23:40)
Yeah.
And the signs around town, like being put up around town got worse too. anyway, yeah. There started to be signs accusing Gordon Massie of like abusing Mary's daughter in really horrible ways. And just vitriolic evil shit was being posted all around town. Okay, so February 7th, 1983. Six years after these letters first started arriving.
Mary was driving her bus route when she saw yet another sign with a horrible message about her daughter. So she stopped the bus, pulled over, and she went to rip the sign down. I think it was like on a fence. But when she did, she saw that there was like a piece of string attached to the sign connected to a cardboard box. And she was like, ⁓ this is a little bit weird. So she takes the box and she opened it and she found a gun.
in there. So immediately she was like, nope, what the fuck is this? She takes the whole thing to the sheriff's office and they determine that what Mary had found was a booby trap designed to fire the gun at her when the sign was pulled down. Because she had made a habit of taking these signs down when she saw them. So she was pretty clearly the target.
Kathryn (25:00)
What the fuck Gina? I f-
Gina (25:02)
Yeah, and the only reason the trap didn't work was because it was like she pulled the sign down at like the exact right angle to not like trigger the firing mechanism
Kathryn (25:15)
I feel like I'm watching.
like, made-for-adults cartoon. Like, this is outrageous.
Gina (25:22)
You
Yeah, it's fucking wacky.
Kathryn (25:27)
What the fuck?
Police find their suspect
Gina (25:28)
Okay, so, Sheriff's Office started to dig into this and they specifically started looking for the gun's owner. Like, whose fucking gun is this? The serial number had been kind of filed off. It was described as being filed off in an amateurish way, like the person doing it didn't really know what they were doing. So they sent it off to the State Forensic Lab and they were able to figure out what the serial number was. So they traced the gun back to a pawn shop.
which helped them traced it to a buyer who said that he'd sold the gun to someone. Who? Paul, Mary and Ron's brother-in-law.
Kathryn (26:07)
No.
Gina (26:08)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kathryn (26:10)
So he...
Say that he bought it from the pawn shop or from the buyer and then pawned it.
Gina (26:15)
He bought it from the guy who bought it from the pawn shop.
Kathryn (26:18)
From the, okay, okay, I was going in the wrong direction. Okay, okay. Jesus fucking Christ. Okay.
Gina (26:23)
Mm-hmm. So that's all we know. All we know right now is that this gun belongs to Paul. That's it. So Sheriff's Office brings Paul in, and Paul said that the gun had actually been stolen from his garage a few weeks earlier and that he didn't file a report when it happened, which meant that there was no actual evidence that any theft has occurred. He also claimed that he had nothing to do with the booby trap.
Kathryn (26:29)
Okay.
Okay.
Gina (26:50)
And he did have an alibi for the day that the trap was set. He had taken the day off of work while some contractors did some work on his home and he was just there to like observe that and witnesses do back that up like he was at the house. So they got him to take a polygraph test, which he failed.
Handwriting samples
And they also took handwriting samples to see if his handwriting matched the ones in the letters and on the signs and all that stuff.
But when the sheriff administered the handwriting test, he did it like a fucking scumbag. So when you, yes, I know, yes. So when you do a handwriting test, what's supposed to happen is somebody reads something out loud to you and then you write it down so that it's just like your pure handwriting. It's not influenced by somebody else's. But with Paul, Sheriff Radcliffe literally gave him a copy of the letters and told him not just to write down what was on the letters, he told
Kathryn (27:24)
Jesus Christ.
Gina (27:48)
Paul to make it look like that handwriting. Like try to match what this looks like. Yes.
Kathryn (27:52)
What?
Okay, we gotta pause because I'm so overwhelmed for so many reasons. I will say I am an expert in handwriting analysis because one time in, I think it was eighth grade, we learned about handwriting analysis. I think it was eighth grade, it was like seventh or eighth grade. I don't remember what class or what unit. I don't know why the fuck we were learning that. But it was real fun. And.
Gina (28:10)
⁓ cool.
Kathryn (28:20)
I just remember, like, I've been mildly obsessed with it ever since. I love a handwriting sample when it shows up in a crime case, because theoretically, you would think it would be so easy to replicate handwriting. But it's not at all. Like, there's so much subconscious stuff that they take into account, like, the pressure that you write with and, like, this little swoop that you do when you make your T or whatever. It's super fascinating.
Gina (28:33)
It's not.
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (28:47)
You're not supposed to tell people to try to replicate the handwriting! Like, what the hell?
Gina (28:50)
No, you're not. No, you are not.
Yeah, and Paul did it because he wasn't, well, he said that he wasn't guilty, so why wouldn't he do it? And he also, I remember reading somewhere that he denied his right to counsel. So there wasn't a lawyer there to be like, no, Paul, that's not how it's supposed to be. He just trusted the police? Agreed. Don't ever do that.
Kathryn (29:00)
Yeah.
Yikes. Never do that. Don't ever do that. Always ask for representation.
And also, so that's the other, that's the thing that I find interesting because even let's say you do try to replicate the handwriting. theoretically, a good handwriting analysis would be able to consider the things that I just said, like pressure, you know, speed, all of those things and identify whether something is replicated or if this is truly the way this person writes, you know? But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just, fascinated by handwriting analysis. It's so much deeper than it seems like it would be.
Gina (29:41)
Mm-hmm.
It's really interesting. It's one of those rabbit holes that I always mean to deep dive into and then I get overwhelmed.
Kathryn (29:51)
Yeah.
Yeah,
It's so overwhelming because it really, it really matters who's doing the analysis because it's also so subjective. One person could say, ⁓ yes, you know, this T was purposely made this way, but their handwriting actually looks like this. And someone else could come in and be like, no, that actually match or whatever, you know? So it's really, it's subjective, but also cool.
Gina (29:56)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
The fucking handwriting samples. That's the part of this story that drives me the most crazy is them telling him to copy it like it was his handwriting.
Kathryn (30:32)
And also, like, this whole crime is about handwriting. Like, this person is writing things to people. like, that's a really, really horrible thing to fuck up in this case. That's, the whole thing.
Karen’s claims
Gina (30:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yes. ⁓ And then they brought Paul's now ex-wife, Karen, in. she said that she knew for a fact Paul was the one writing the letters. It is worth noting that at the time, Karen and Paul were going through a really fucking messy divorce. And she had kind of gotten the short end of the stick. They got divorced because she was cheating on him.
Kathryn (30:50)
Interesting.
Gina (31:13)
And so she wound up like losing custody of their kids. She lost her, like she had to move into a trailer in Mary's backyard. Just like not a whole lot going right for Karen and a whole lot of fucking hate towards Paul. So some people, yeah, some people do think she was trying to frame him or at the very least that she had a motive to frame him. And some of the things she told the cops do seem to corroborate this a little bit. So she told them,
Kathryn (31:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so she was mad.
Gina (31:42)
that she had found unsent letters around their home when she and Paul still lived together. But when the police asked to see them, she was like, I don't have them anymore. They're gone. Which is a bit suspicious.
And one of the main questions that the cops had Karen, was, all right, but why would Paul do this? Like if he was the letter writer, if he was the one who set this booby trap and tried to kill Mary, why? Like what would his motive be?
And Karen said that it's because Paul fucking hated Mary. Apparently, she said that after Ron's death, when Gordon and Mary like officially launched their relationship, it really pissed Paul off because he was the one who was like Ron was murdered. He was like trying to get the FBI to look into it. He was banging the drum for Ron with the assumption being that he felt like Mary betrayed Ron by getting together with Gordon. And that anger was enough to make him want to kill her.
Family tree recap
Kathryn (32:42)
Okay, I'm with you, but real quick before we continue, can you give me a quick recap of the family tree here? Because I'm following the relationship between people, but I don't remember, like, I'm only remembering some of them, I'm sorry.
Gina (32:49)
Yes, yeah, it's confusing.
No, no, you're totally
fine. There's so many names in this story. So Mary and Ron were like the married couple at the beginning with the two kids. Mary was accused of having an affair with a guy named Gordon. He's a superintendent. They do wind up dating later. ⁓ Mary and Ron, Ron has a sister named Karen who's married to Paul. So Mary and Ron and Karen and Paul, it's like ⁓ siblings-in-law type thing. Yeah.
Kathryn (33:02)
At the beginning, okay, yes, yep.
Okay.
They're like in-laws. Okay, that's where I forgot it was Mary and Karen that I was like, am I remembering this right? I couldn't remember. Like, I remember the individual things, but I don't remember how the individuals were connected. Anyway, yes. Okay, okay. I'm with you. Just wanted to confirm. Okay, please continue.
Was the evidence enough?
Gina (33:37)
Yeah, now I feel you.
Yes.
So just to bring my own fucking opinion into the mix, I do think the evidence against Paul was flimsy. There was no actual physical evidence tying him to this booby trap. His fingerprints weren't on the box. His fingerprints weren't on the gun. He was told to copy the fucking letters. Karen had a reason to frame him for something. So it just kind of like there's holes everywhere in the story.
Kathryn (33:48)
You ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Gina (34:09)
But Paul was really the only suspect that police were pursuing, and they just became convinced that it was him.
Kathryn (34:17)
Man, see, that's, well, I'm not like, anyway, I don't know what happens, but I struggle with a lack of physical evidence too, because sometimes there just isn't any and someone really did something and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I'm like, I do struggle with that.
Gina (34:26)
Yeah.
Kathryn (34:35)
It's like very, especially... what year was this?
Gina (34:36)
Yeah.
This was the 1980s, like early 80s by this point.
Kathryn (34:42)
Okay, I guess that was technically before DNA was available, widely available. I don't know. Anyway, I'm just, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what happens in this story. I'm sorry. Okay, please continue. Yeah, I'm like... Yes, thank you for your patience. I do need to like pause every now and then to just digest, because I'm like, this is so much more than I was expecting.
Gina (34:52)
No, I had similar reactions at every stage of researching this. That's why I was ranting to Tom about it for 20 minutes, because I was like, my god.
It's okay.
I completely understand. If you want to do some deep breathing at any point, just let me know. I'm game.
Kathryn (35:12)
Yeah, you know,
it honestly, reminds me of the Tylenol murders. Just doesn't it? Yeah, like not exactly. Yeah, not like the type of story or whatever, but just the question marks and the whole letter writing and stuff obviously. But yeah, it's got that similar vibe. And the cops, On that one person, yeah, yeah.
Gina (35:16)
That's exactly what I was thinking about. Yes, 100%.
Yeah. Like the... Yes, a whole community afraid of somebody that they don't know who it is and then the police being desperate to find the right person and... Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The trial begins
So, Paul was officially arrested and charged with the attempted murder of Mary Gillespie and his trial started in October of 1983, where it became...
Like I said, very obvious, very quickly, that there was no actual physical evidence tying Paul to this crime, or the letters for that matter. It's important to distinguish that he, Paul was not charged for writing the letters. He was only charged for the attempt on Mary's life. But despite objections from the defense, the judge did allow 39 of the letters into evidence.
Kathryn (36:20)
Okay.
Gina (36:20)
Because they showed Paul's mental state at the time.
Kathryn (36:28)
but he wasn't accused of writing the letters. Is my reaction valid? Okay. Okay. Guide me through this because... Like I have my knee-jerk reactions, but I'm also like, I know that, you know, we're still working through this. So I'm like, if I'm not heading in the right direction, tell me, but that's weird, right?
Gina (36:30)
Yes. Yes, correct. Correct. Your reaction is so valid. Sorry. I'm just staring at you like...
Yeah, no, it's fucking weird and stupid and dumb. So he wasn't charged for writing the letters officially, but unofficially, he definitely was. Like he was on trial for both, even if only one of those things was on paper. The trial was very tough. ⁓ Like I said, they hadn't found any fingerprints on the gun or the box, but the court did note that Paul did have spare time the day the trap was set, because he wasn't at work.
Kathryn (36:58)
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
Gina (37:23)
and the materials used to make the trap could have come from Paul's workplace. Not did, could have. They also brought in a handwriting expert who testified that 391 letters and 103 postcards from this anonymous person could be linked to Paul's handwriting. Of course, using the samples that the sheriff told Paul to make look like the anonymous person's handwriting.
Kathryn (37:32)
Classic.
Gina (37:55)
One of Paul's friends did testify that they believed Paul's story about the gun being stolen because they had helped Paul look for it. But again, like you could, I could ask you over tomorrow to help me look for my lost gun and I've never had a fucking gun. You know what I mean? Like it's like everything is like a little bit wishy washy, a little bit flimsy. And in all of this, it was only circumstantial evidence. There was nothing physical. But despite that, Paul was found guilty.
Kathryn (38:03)
Mm.
Yeah.
stressful.
Gina (38:24)
and he was sentenced to the maximum penalty of 7 to 25 years in prison.
Kathryn (38:30)
based on circumstantial evidence?
Gina (38:32)
purely circumstantial evidence.
Kathryn (38:34)
So they were just trying to cross this case off their list. 100%. They didn't have any desire to find the actual person. Ew. ⁓ This is so frustrating. I'm so happy that I never knew this story and I'm sad that I know it.
Gina (38:37)
They just wanted to get a guy. They just wanted to get someone.
⁓ I know.
⁓
Letters in prison
It fucking, okay here. Let me tell you this next part, dude. So people are like great job everyone. We got the guy. Everything's fine. But even with Paul in prison, the letters kept coming and even Paul received a letter while he was incarcerated. I'll read a snippet of it to you because it's another like it's very chilling. It says
When are you going to believe you aren't getting out of there? I told you two years ago, when we set them up, they stay set up.
Yes. And even that didn't convince people. People were like, nah, Paul is just sending letters from the prison back to the prison to make himself look innocent. So just to make sure, they took several steps to prevent Paul from doing this. So they put him in solitary confinement, no access to pen, paper, mail, nothing. He was regularly strip searched. His incoming and outgoing mail was religiously checked and they found nothing.
Kathryn (39:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a thing that does or at least should already... Like everything that goes in and out of a jail is monitored heavily. Like, read your letters if you send or receive things.
Gina (40:08)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (40:13)
Hmm, weird.
Gina (40:14)
And also, all of the letters were still postmarked from Columbus, Ohio, and Paul was in prison in, I think it's Lima, Ohio, which is like 90 miles away.
Kathryn (40:23)
There's just no way. Right? Unless there is. I don't know the story. I'm so scared. I don't think so either.
Gina (40:24)
There's just no way. I don't think there's a fucking way. And the letters just kept coming, hundreds
of them. And still, Sheriff Radcliffe was adamant that Paul was somehow behind it. To that I say, how? It's your job to figure it out!
Kathryn (40:41)
That's just obsessive behavior. if, at that point, honestly, I'd have a little more empathy toward like, okay, maybe the sheriff knows something I don't, but like, the moment you tell me there's some kind of election involved, most details you tell me after that, I'm like, that's bullshit. Like, I'm sorry, that's maybe something I need to work on emotionally, but there's just no fucking way.
Gina (40:59)
Yeah.
And there was a, so the letter that Paul got while he was in prison, the one that I read a snippet about, there is a line in there that some people think implies that Sheriff Radcliffe was in cahoots with the letter writer because I think in the letter, it says something like, read the papers, it was great, Sheriff Radcliffe loved it or something.
Kathryn (41:26)
Ew, that's... I don't like the way that makes me feel. Yeah. Like, even if it... Let's say it wasn't. For argument's sake, let's say that had nothing to do with it. That's fine. The implication that he did, like, this person is, like, knows what buttons to press. You know what I mean? That's chilling. Yeah.
Gina (41:27)
Gross. Gross, yeah.
Yes. Which is
like, that's the other, that's one of the mind-boggling things about this case, is like, yeah, it was a small town, but there's still thousands of people there, and this person knew every single button to press.
Kathryn (41:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, that's scary. Because that's like that's like that is a small town, but it's not the type of small town that we've been talking about recently where that's not the size of town where everybody knows everybody. It's still it's like a very, very, very small city.
Gina (42:01)
It's just wild.
No.
Martin Yant
So Paul is sitting in prison and a journalist named Martin Yant decided to do some digging into this case because just like us, he was absolutely baffled and bamboozled by this whole thing. And he found something that somehow never made it into evidence.
Kathryn (42:36)
no, I'm stressed. Hold on, let me readjust. I'm so scared. I hate it. I hate it so much. I knew you were gonna hit me with something like this. I knew you were gonna do this to me. Okay. I feel out of breath. Okay, tell me I'm good. I'm okay. Okay. I'm so scared and mad, but I don't know who I'm mad at yet. Okay, tell me.
Gina (42:37)
It never ends. never ends. ⁓
So Martin Yant found that apparently, about 20 minutes before Mary found this booby trap, a different bus driver was driving down the same road and right at the spot where that booby trap would eventually be placed, they saw a large man with sandy hair and a yellow El Camino. The driver like tried to look and see if they could see the man's face, but the man turned.
When the bus drove past, which could just be a coincidence, or it could have been that he was trying to hide his face from being identified. It is worth noting, Paul does not match this description at all. He had dark hair, and he was not a super big guy. He was kind of a small dude. But the description did match Karen's new boyfriend.
Kathryn (43:44)
No! What?
Gina (43:47)
And wouldn't you know it, Karen's brother drove an El Camino just like the one the driver saw.
Kathryn (43:54)
scared. I hate this so much.
Gina (43:55)
Right?
And there is no evidence that, so the police knew about this. They were given this tip and there's no evidence that they ever followed up on it.
Kathryn (44:05)
I can't say what I want to say right now. I can't publicly say what I want to say right
Gina (44:08)
I feel it. I feel it.
It's okay. can scream into our pillows later.
Letter to Unsolved Mysteries
So about a year before Paul was released from prison, the TV show Unsolved Mysteries decided to do a feature on the Circleville letters. before they had even filmed it, they received a letter that said, forget Circleville, Ohio.
Kathryn (44:15)
Let's move on, I hate it. I hate this story so much, I'm so sorry.
I can't do this anymore.
Gina (44:40)
Do nothing to hurt Sheriff Radcliffe. If you come to Ohio, you El Sickos will pay.
Kathryn (44:48)
This was sent to... Unsolved Mysteries?
Gina (44:52)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (44:53)
I'm floored right now. cannot believe I don't know this story. That is wild.
Gina (44:57)
It's fucking wild!
Yes! Do nothing to hurt Sheriff Radcliffe.
Kathryn (45:03)
That's, yeah, trust me, I heard that sentence.
Gina (45:09)
Yes, and that
is the last known letter from the Circleville letter writer.
Kathryn (45:16)
It just stopped forever.
Gina (45:17)
It just stopped. It was just over. Well, not over, because I still have more to say. But the letters were over. Yep.
Kathryn (45:24)
⁓ my god
48 Hours coverage
Gina (45:30)
In 2021, the CBS show 48 Hours aired an episode where they claimed they had identified the true writer of the letters. They hadn't, but they wanted to get the clicks. It's still, it's very good. You can watch it online. But they did bring in a forensic document examiner named Beverly East, who compared the Circleville letters to Paul's actual handwriting. I don't think she used the ones that ⁓ he was told to make look like it.
Kathryn (46:00)
Mm-hmm.
Gina (46:00)
And she found over 100 idiosyncrasies in Paul's handwriting that did match the Circleville letters, especially the way that they wrote numbers, like the way that they wrote a capital G kind of looked like a six. And apparently that's very, very rare that somebody does that when they write. But even then, she also caught patterns that didn't make sense and made her think maybe it wasn't the same person behind the two. So while she did
Kathryn (46:08)
⁓
Gina (46:29)
say that she believed Paul was the writer, it wasn't definitive proof. Like it was not case shut. There was still open-ended questions. But
A former FBI profiler named Mary Ellen O'Toole also gave her two cents, and basically her opinion was, there is not enough evidence to say whether or not Paul did it. Like, it's just, it's the same conclusion everyone gets back to. But based on her experience, she guessed that the true author of the letters was a woman and not very well-educated. Paul was a man who had three degrees, including a master's degree.
Kathryn (46:50)
Mm-hmm.
Interesting.
That's fascinating. Me too.
Gina (47:06)
I would love to do a deep dive into her and like just FBI profilers
in general. I'm fascinated by.
Kathryn (47:13)
Yeah.
Gina (47:14)
But regardless, the sheriff's office considers the case closed and to this day attributes the booby trap and the letters to Paul Freshour.
And that's my story. So what's your vibe? you think Paul did it?
Kathryn (47:31)
No, of course not. And even if he did, I don't think he did all of it. Like, even if he was involved in some way. what I don't know. Maybe you do. Maybe there's information on this. Are we sure it was just one person the whole time?
Gina (47:35)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ whole can of worms, man. So that's one of the most popular theories that it was multiple writers. A lot of people think it's such a long time and they knew so much about so many different people. So there's a really popular theory that originally it was Gordon Massie's son who started writing the letters about the affair. And then it turned into David Longberry, the guy that Mary, like the guy who made a pass at Mary that she like rejected. And then they like,
Kathryn (47:50)
Cause like, that's such a long time.
Right.
Okay.
Gina (48:16)
told him to stop writing the letters. And then after he was the letter writer that Karen took over. Which makes it like all of these people had reasons to do this.
Kathryn (48:22)
Okay, that does make sense.
even if it wasn't like, they're all in it together, many of these could have been local teenagers playing a prank and like just a copycat or whatever? I don't even know.
Gina (48:37)
I do think that is likely. I think at some point somebody who isn't in the theory list or seemingly connected just dogpiled in because it was kind of like a mass hysteria thing.
Kathryn (48:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, in a lot of time, it's typically, I don't want to say easy, but typically when copycats happen, people will clock it pretty quickly because of handwriting analysis, people know. But if nobody was really putting that much effort into from the beginning, the sheriff doesn't seem like he really cared about finding the right person. He just cared about closing the case.
Gina (49:14)
Mm-hmm.
Kathryn (49:17)
I don't know if they'd put that much energy into figuring out if it was more than one person or a copycat or whatever. Or maybe they did determine that some of them were and they just didn't find it important enough to talk about or whatever. I don't know, I'm just so stressed.
Gina (49:22)
I don't think they would.
Yeah, agreed.
Some people do some people think that Mary was behind it.
and she set up the booby trap to like throw off investigators, which I don't really buy that one. I think multiple writers is more likely.
Kathryn (49:36)
Maybe.
I think so too. The moment you said it lasted years, I was like, there's no fucking way there's one person. You'd get tired and move on with your life. That's a lot of writing.
Gina (49:49)
Right? I can't even like
watch a TV show for more than 30 minutes without checking my phone. Like, how do you do that? Imagine the stamps. They're so expensive.
Kathryn (49:56)
How do you write letters all the time? Yeah, I just, I think...
It's true. Well, back then you couldn't just buy a forever stamp. Those prices kept going up, up, up. Anyway.
Gina (50:14)
That's what I always say.
Kathryn (50:18)
I don't believe it that I was just one person. So this is it, there's no, we don't know who it was. Man.
Gina (50:21)
I don't think so either. This is it. This is it. The CBS thing that
48 Hours did, that was the last really big, well-known dig into the case. There just is not a whole lot of recent stuff going for it, which I think is a shame because there are so many questions in this that you could do. Some people think that there are upwards of 1,000 letters. There's gotta be things in there that we missed.
especially now that we have access to like forensics in a way that we absolutely did not in the 80s.
Kathryn (50:49)
Yeah.
Man, these kinda, these-
Gina (50:55)
but the sheriff's office says its closed?
Kathryn (50:57)
I hate it.
That's obnoxious. How do you just close a case like that? You just close it?
Gina (51:06)
Mm-hmm.
How dare you.
What do you think you are?
Kathryn (51:13)
stupid grow up. I hate it! I didn't know this was unsolved. I really like- we need to put a disclaimer in the show notes because I'm unwell right now. I mean, but it's not technically unsolved, which is infuriating. ⁓ I hate that. Okay. I'm just... yeah. Anytime there is such a huge lack of physical evidence, as far as I'm concerned, it is unsolved. I'm sorry.
Gina (51:14)
Pfft
Yes.
It's unsolved in the ways that matter.
Yes, yeah.
Kathryn (51:42)
Especially like you said, we do have so much more technology now. Can't we just like scan it, put it through some kind of fucking fancy scanner and it'll just pop out like, oh, it so-and-so. Doesn't that exist? How do people just get away with crimes? Can you imagine getting away with a crime? Like I could never, I could never, I would 100 % know I could not. That's why I don't commit crimes, because I won't get away with it.
Gina (51:53)
That's how I imagine it. It's like a fancy fax machine with criminals, isn't it?
No, I don't think I could. I don't think I could. No. ⁓
Kathryn (52:12)
That's the only thing stopping me from doing a lot of stuff. Well, that's...
What a wild story. I did not know what to expect, but it wasn't that. Man, that's wild.
Gina (52:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't expect
it either. So I will be returning back to my comfort zone of centuries ago when the biggest culprit was the devil and bewitchery.
Kathryn (52:31)
Yeah.
That was not a Gina story at all. I appreciated These are the types of stories that like keep me up at night because now I'm sitting here like, okay, if it wasn't, what's his name? Paul. I keep wanting to say the other one, George, but it was Paul.
Gina (52:36)
No,
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Yeah, Paul was the guy who got put in prison.
Kathryn (52:54)
If it wasn't him, which I don't think it was, that means whoever did it is still out there and what if they're like...
I mean, they got to still be monitoring this story because, like you said, there is new technology that they couldn't have known would exist back then. So they're probably very paranoid about getting caught. So they're probably, my God, what if they listen to this episode?
Gina (53:11)
Mm-hmm.
Fuck you. If this is you, that's very rude.
Kathryn (53:18)
If you're the Circleville
letter writer, iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com, let us know.
Gina (53:21)
Ha
Patreon's in the show notes.
Kathryn (53:25)
Send us a letter!
Just kidding, please don't. I swear to God, please do not send us a letter. You can send us an email though, but just one. Don't spam us.
Gina (53:28)
Don't. Please don't. No.
No, I think they absolutely keep up with this story because they like they they had the criminal thing where they were proud of it because when ⁓ Ron died, they were like, nope, this was a cover up. Sheriff Radcliffe is participating in a cover up. Make sure to give me credit for it. And then when Paul was in prison, they were flaunting that Paul was set up for it. Like, there's no way they're not keeping up. I don't know if they'll listen to this, but they're keeping tabs on shit.
Kathryn (53:36)
You would have to.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Gina (53:58)
You never know.
Kathryn (53:58)
The masochist in me totally hopes that they listen to us. I'm just a little bit vain to think that the Circleville Letter writer would listen to our podcast, but I don't know, maybe they like ice cream.
Gina (54:10)
I hope they don't get to have any. That's the worst, the worst thing I could possibly think to happen to someone. Any ice cream. I stopped learning about consequences when I was five. But now that we have ⁓ something to keep us awake and anxious all night, do you have something for me? Great.
Kathryn (54:13)
I hope you don't get ice crammed. I'll throw a gun.
my god. Wow. Alright.
I sure do. Yes, I do.
Scary on Top
In case that wasn't enough, we got another story from our friend, Emma, over at Chillers and Thrillers. If you all remember, those stories that they sent us were absolutely horrendously horrifying. And I did confirm that all the stories they read on their podcast are...
allegedly true as far as they are concerned. None of it is fiction. It's all real experiences sent in by people. So that's horrifying and I hate it, but also kind of love.
Gina (55:09)
Okay. That's terrifying.
Kathryn (55:14)
So this one is called The Camp Counselor and it is submitted by username, ⁓ my god, we're having a fire sale. So that's literally the way it's typed. It's fire and then dot dot dot sale. but again, by way of Chillers and Thrillers it says.
Gina (55:26)
They're having a fire sale.
Kathryn (55:40)
my family has a camp in upstate New York that my dad and a bunch of his childhood friends saved from being demolished a few years after they graduated from grad school. It was originally an old school boys camp, the wet hot American summer type, except for all boys.
Gina (55:56)
Okay.
Kathryn (55:59)
So, exactly. So it's worked out over the years that each one of my dad's friends started a family and we all got a family cabin and shared the dining hall, rec hall, boat house, et cetera, just all the lodge buildings. All of the kids used to love when my dad's friend John, who had worked as a counselor at the original camp, would tell ghost stories around the fire because he always had the best stories.
There was one though that always completely freaked us out. The story of Peter Black. Apparently, there had been this counselor at the camp named Peter Black, who used to be sort of strange. He had just graduated from high school and was sort of a loner. And on the second summer he worked at the camp, three of the counselors that worked with him, including my dad's friend John, filed a complaint with the owners and the directors about his odd behavior.
This behavior was never explicitly violent, counselors had seen him taking strange photos, lurking in the corners at events, writing long, detailed journal entries, and just generally being pretty off-putting to the kids. So, long story short, he was acting weird enough that he was fired and was pretty pissed off about it. The next summer, he got into a car accident.
drunk driving and died, which I did not know this part of story. Did not know that was going to be a... Yeah, there's a connection there. He was all alone in his car, but apparently he was wearing his sort of trademark white raincoat and rain hat when he died. And he drove his the Adirondacks, quite close to the camp.
Gina (57:29)
Wow, connection.
Kathryn (57:47)
That's when everything started getting really weird. That summer at the camp, some of the kids started complaining about seeing a guy out on the lake in a boat wearing a white raincoat and holding a camera. Understandably, it started to really get to the counselors that got him fired. And eventually, all of them except my dad's friend John quit. That fall, one of the counselors got in a car accident with his girlfriend and died.
The other one almost drowned the next spring in a boating accident. It was apparently really, really frightening for the counselors, but since the car accident wasn't suspicious, it was all ruled an accident and forgotten. Soon after that, the camp was closed.
Now, I'm sure this can be chalked up to the power of suggestion and maybe fear, but on one rainy day at camp, years after the Peter Black story had last been told, at a campfire, I was sitting in my dad's friend's Carl's cabin with his son, Ian. We were about 15 or 16, and we were messing around with Ian's dad's binoculars, looking out the back window. That's when we saw it. A man in a white raincoat.
and a white rain hat in a boat on the lake holding a camera. My whole body got chills and Ian and I both dropped at the binoculars and ran into the other room. I've seriously never been so terrified. It felt like someone had run an ice cube down my spine. After a few minutes of hyperventilating,
We convinced ourselves that we had imagined it and we went back to the window and looked in the binoculars again. The guy was still there, except this time he looked about, if you can hear stuff, it's just cinnamon, not the guy in the white raincoat. Okay.
Gina (59:34)
Okay.
Kathryn (59:37)
except this time he looked about a mile closer to us than he had been before. I know! I hate it! I know, me too, I hate it so much. was just sitting there staring straight ahead, looking into a camera, and then I swear on everything in my life, he put the camera down and waved at us.
Gina (59:46)
I hate that!
⁓
No! Sorry.
Kathryn (1:00:04)
We
both screamed and ran to the kitchen to find our parents. When we got to the kitchen, John was there too,
and as my mom told us we were being ridiculous, John just looked at me with what I can only describe as a deadened, horrified look in his eyes. I never saw the man in the boat again, but I believe it was something. Either way, I don’t mess around on rainy days at camp anymore. Too risky, ha! That's what it says! Ha!
Gina (1:00:35)
That was the
best ending. That's fucking terrifying. my God. One of my least favorite things in the world is similar to like, yes, you know exactly what I'm gonna say. Like you blink or you look away and then it's closer the next time you look. That's on par with like the Bellwitch sheep's sheets getting ripped off the bed, like ankles getting grabbed. Fuck all of that.
Kathryn (1:00:37)
Too risky. Horrifying! Can you imagine? I hate that.
Yup.
Yep, I do.
whenever I'm watching a horror movie and you can see something in the background and there's any type of light flicker or camera work or whatever you just know it's gonna be closer, I can't. I physically, I'm feeling claustrophobic even just thinking about it right now. I can't handle that. That's one of the scariest things ever and it's almost, it's one of those things where it's scary, it's scarier when you know what's coming because it's like that dread.
Gina (1:01:14)
Uah.
you're just waiting
for it.
Kathryn (1:01:31)
Because it's kind of a mix between that, like, it's the fear of it, of not knowing what's going to happen, but also you know what's going to happen and you can't stop it. I don't know. ⁓ my god, I hate that. That's so scary. ⁓ my god. Yep. In the woods, yes. Yep.
Gina (1:01:42)
⁓ god, that's terrifying. Especially like in a camp where you're presumably like in the middle of nowhere. So even if you tried to get away, like you can't really escape
from that.
Kathryn (1:01:54)
And didn't they say they're in the mountains? Are they in the Adirondacks? Or was that just, yes, oh my god, so scary. That's like real wilderness out there. Anyway, so thank you so much, Chillers and Thrillers, for sending that to us. If you have a spooky or strange story you would like to hear at the end of one of our episodes, please feel free to send it to iscreamyouscreampod@gmail.com. And also, in addition to that,
Gina (1:01:57)
Yes! Yeah, yeah, yeah. God. Fuck that.
Kathryn (1:02:22)
As a reminder, we are still sending out free stickers if you want to leave us a review on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen. You can also email that to us along with your mailing address and we'll send you a sticker. ⁓ But yeah, this has been a wild ride. My emotions are not OK, so I'm going to go have some tea and snuggle with Cinnamon. ⁓ But yeah, until next time, little spoons keep it cool.
Gina (1:02:39)
Mm-hmm.
Keep it creepy.
