Ep. 29 - The Satanic Panic - Part 1

[Gina 00:14] Hey everybody, welcome to I Scream You Scream, your weekly scoop of the most chilling histories, mysteries, and paranormal perplexities. I'm Gina.

[Kathryn 00:22] I'm Kathryn

[Gina 00:24] And every single month we choose a new topic and a new flavor of ice cream to go along with it. This is the start of a brand new month and I'm so excited about it. We're talking mass hysteria and panics and we are having some Neapolitan ice cream to munch on while we talk about our stories. So grab a spoon and let's dig in.

[Kathryn 00:33] Yay! Okay, and we're back to the Lactaid because I thankfully didn't make this ice cream.

[Gina 00:54] It was nice to not have to make ice cream a day or two in advance this time. It was a luxury.

[Kathryn 00:56] Yeah. Yeah. Yep, as advertised.

[Gina 01:04] Yeah, Neapolitan holds up.

[Kathryn 01:06] There's just something so great about like... Like this just tastes like strawberry, chocolate, and vanilla as it should and that's just what you need sometimes.

[Gina 01:10] Classic. And that's sometimes that's what you need. I do like the strawberry a lot more than I did when I was a kid.

[Kathryn 01:20] Okay, I was gonna ask, I got barely any vanilla and that wasn't on purpose the way it was in the tub. Like for a scoop, there was like a sliver of vanilla. I'm sure it gets more as you go down, you know, it was just kind of uneven. So I didn't even try to get a scoop like I always used to get when I was little. It just naturally is mostly strawberry, a little bit of chocolate and nearly no vanilla.

[Gina 01:33] Mm. Mmm chocolate strawberry, we should bake chocolate strawberry ice cream someday like chocolate covered strawberry

[Kathryn 01:50] I used to get a strawberry chocolate milkshake at Steak and Shake. I love chocolate and strawberry. My favorite thing ever is chocolate and cherry, but for ice cream, I love strawberry and chocolate together.

[Gina 01:55] Mmm. Mm. I used to get it used to be like, I think it used to be on the menu at Steak and Shake and then they took it off, but they would still make it if you asked. It was a Pop Rocks milkshake.

[Kathryn 02:12] I never saw, I never heard of them. I don't love Pop Rocks. That's interesting. Yeah. my gosh, that's wild. That sounds so fun.

[Gina 02:14] It was really, cause it was, I love Pop Rocks. Cause it was just a vanilla milkshake with little popping bits. Mm-hmm. That was really good. I have something... I have something cheesy to say.

[Kathryn 02:27] Man, I'm scarfing this down. ⁓ tell me. Alright, tell me.

[Gina 02:33] So earlier today, you texted me that it was storming by you and it's also been storming by me today. And there's something just so comforting when we have the same weather. It just makes me feel really good.

[Kathryn 02:38] Mm-hmm. Wait, it? Seriously, I think that all the time. I very rarely... No, I truly, I very rarely mention the weather around here because that's such a cliche. I don't want to like talk about the weather with you because that's supposed to be...

[Gina 02:51] Okay, good, same. We have bigger things to talk about.

[Kathryn 03:05] Like, you know what mean? Like you just, you talk about the weather with people you don't know or like, I'm sorry. That's the stereotype. I'm not saying that's necessarily true. Don't be all butthurt listeners if I've ever talked about the weather with you. But I try not to talk about it with you because we do have so many other things to talk about. But I get so excited when we have similar weather. I feel like we don't always have similar weather.

[Gina 03:09] Yeah You Me too.

[Kathryn 03:33] Especially in the winter time, it's always very different. Winter and summer feels very different, but it's like in the fall and spring, we like often are like, yeah, experiencing similar weather. Yeah. Yep. my gosh, that's such a great way to put it. That's how it feels. Like it feels closer. Yeah.

[Gina 03:35] So different, yeah. Yeah. It's like the veil between our worlds is the thinnest and I feel so close to you. Genuinely, yeah. Yeah. So yes, it's also gray and stormy by me today, which I think is the perfect weather to talk about what we're going to talk

[Kathryn 03:58] Mm-hmm. I Do have one thing I want to share This is such a rabbit hole, but I thought it was so cute and it felt symbolic So I have to share so was cleaning out my office the other day

[Gina 04:00] Mm. Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 04:13] For the first time in a long time, it was a freaking mess. But I went deep. I was cleaning out drawers. I was organizing things. I have things in the right spot, blah, blah. And one of the things I found, this is one my favorite things I've ever gotten. So I got it from Colette. For anyone who's new tuning in, Coco is my niece. She's five years old. I got this from her when...

[Kathryn 05:04] ...they've loved me since the beginning but Coco was my Everest. Like I was like determined for like her to love me as much as the other ones did. So I got this card from her and this is the card the first card she ever picked out for me herself. Like she is the one that chose it instead of Karen doing it all and it's a little Neapolitan kitty ice cream cone.

[Gina 05:32] It's so cute! ⁓ So sweet.

[Kathryn 05:55] There's not even, like my name's not even on the card. Karen was not allowed to write on it. but this was like one of the milestones. That's why I mentioned like how shy she was around us. Cause it was like a big moment for me that she like cared to get me a card.

[Gina 06:03] Yeah.

[Kathryn 06:09] This. So that's my little Neapolitan kitty. If you're watching on YouTube, I shared it. Probably like three and a half, four.

[Gina 06:12] So how old was she when she picked that out for you? I would get that card for you. Like that's a great Kathryn card. And so it's extra meaningful that she like, even as a little tiny thing, she was like, this one, this must be for her.

[Kathryn 06:19] Excuse me. Yes, I know that is such a Kathryn card. Yes, like people would get that for me. Yes. Yes, she knew when you want to know why it's because

she would want that card. That's a very Coco card as well. Yeah. Yes, she like I get very jealous around like at her birthday the things she gets I'm like, man, want that.

[Gina 06:36] ⁓ that's so cute.

[Kathryn 06:46] Like she, we have very similar tastes. We're Libras. She's my Libra friend.

[Gina 06:49] Hmm. And her favorite colors are...

[Kathryn 06:55] Purple, pink and sparkles. And then like whatever else people she likes most say, which I can vibe with. I respect. Well sparkles, we bond over the love of the color sparkle. I tried to teach her what iridescent was a few Hangouts ago, because that's one of my favorite colors.

[Gina 06:57] purple, and sparkles. The sparkles part of him is so great.

[Kathryn 07:18] And she just was like, what the fuck are you on? Like she had no idea what I was talking about. It's hard. I'm yeah, I gotta wait. Yeah, I have to wait a little while to like, explain that to her. But she'll love it when she understands.

[Gina 07:22] That would be hard to just unless you have like something on you that shows it. Yeah, once you're old enough to do acid with her, can blow her mind. Sorry, we can cut that out.

[Kathryn 07:35] JK Karen, So sorry. But someday, someday. I'm definitely like, that's my goal. I'm gonna be the aunt that takes them all to get their first drink. I'm gonna be there for all of it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina 07:41] Someday. That's the cool aunt. That's the fucking cool aunt, yeah.

[Kathryn 07:57] I gotta, like especially like and I, we're the ones with no kids and if it stays that way, I'm like, gotta do something with my time. Yeah.

[Gina 08:05] yes, I cannot wait until my sister has kids so I can teach them how to annoy her. It's going to be amazing.

[Kathryn 08:09] Oh yeah. Oh my God, honestly. I'm like, so the oldest niece is like, and I don't want to say her name because she's a preteen and like, how annoying would that be if your aunt was sitting there like gushing over you on a podcast? That's so embarrassing. But I will say I'm obsessed with her and she's like in that era of life where she's like, when I'm 21, I'm gonna blah, blah. You know what I mean? Like she's got her plans and I'm like,

[Gina 08:36] yes.

[Kathryn 08:36] Girl, yes, like I will be there with you. Like, try at Manhattan, like why stop there? Like just balls to the wall.

[Gina 08:47] Yes, can live in a van in Vietnam. Absolutely. We'll do that for 20 years.

[Kathryn 08:50] Yes! Like, fuck the patriarchy, let's go. Absolute chaos. Yes.

[Gina 08:56] Hundred percent man. I love

[Kathryn 09:02] Anyway.

[Gina 09:03] Ha ha ha!

[Kathryn 09:05] So yeah, we've got a big episode today. Should we just, I wanna say jump in after we've been sitting here talking forever. ⁓ Let's do it.

[Gina 09:09] I think we should just, let's, let's, let's, what's like a slightly deescalated version of Jump? Let's skip in. Let's saunter in.

[Kathryn 09:20] See what's the like it feels wrong to say anything like that in regards to the satanic panic slither in Okay, yeah, like that one

[Gina 09:26] Yes, let's slither right on in.

[Kathryn 09:32] All right, so we're talking about the satanic panic and I will say right off the bat, we're doing this in two parts. I'm not even gonna give you anyone a cliffhanger because I don't want anyone upset that I'm not including certain things right off the bat. Just know this could easily be a 20 part podcast situation. So we are doing our best and making it two parts. That's the compromise we have time to give.

[Kathryn 09:47] So.

[Kathryn 09:49] In order to understand the full extent of how the satanic panic started and why people were so scared in the first place, we need to understand what was going on in society leading up to when the panic officially started. So on April 30th, 1966, a man named Howard Stanton Lavey who went by the more recognizable name Anton Lavey, founded the Church of Satan in San Francisco, California.

[Kathryn 10:15] He would refer to 1966 as Ano Satanas, which is Latin for the year of Satan. And he would consider 1966 year one of the age of Satan. Three years later in 1969, Lavey would write and publish the Satanic Bible. And 1969 is kind of known as a big year for a lot of major cultural shifts.

[Kathryn 10:37] probably most notably, I would say, would be the Woodstock Music Festival. one of the first things people think of when they think about this era, and it was considered to be the height of the hippie movement. So, free love was kind of at its peak during this time, and then in the years following, kind of started to decline. We were moving into kind of the yuppie era. 1969 was a big time for the young hippies in America.

[Kathryn 11:07] One of the biggest things that contributed to this sort of hippie mindset of the 60s was the war in Vietnam. Young people didn't want the war. There was a lot of protests, a lot of kind of anti-establishment, fuck the government kind of vibes. And the young people were angry in the way that they had never really been before. And that was very scary for parents. It was kind of like...

[Gina 11:36] Ahem.

[Kathryn 11:47] ...you know, when you're young, you just sort of do what you need to do and stay in line and don't really question authority the way people were in the 60s. So that was another thing that was kind of causing a lot of upheaval and a little bit of scariness amongst the parents. That was also the year of the Manson murders, which I'm not going to go into, but ⁓ so many things were happening. Yes.

[Gina 12:09] didn't realize all of these were so close together. Wow.

[Kathryn 12:13] Yeah, the late 60s and particularly 1969, 68, 69, there was just so much shit going But a lot of people mistakenly think that the Manson family was a satanic cult. They were a cult, but it wasn't necessarily the case that they were satanic, but.

[Kathryn 12:34] the seemingly ritualistic nature of the crimes they committed just had people like, what the hell is like, what is that? You know, no one had ever seen anything like it. That was a big, it was a big shift in the way people understood crime. Like, that was the crime of the century for a lot of people, people who never locked their doors before started locking them at night. Like it was a big fucking deal. Particularly since there was sort of that ritualistic ⁓

[Gina 12:51] Mmm. ⁓

[Kathryn 13:03] aspect to it with like the writing on the walls and all that kind of stuff. We're also deep in the midst of the sexual revolution at this time kind of coincides with the hippie era. being anything but straight and monogamous was still extremely unacceptable at this time and being openly gay was very rare and taboo and quote unquote bad.

[Kathryn 13:24] So your options in 1969 were straight or gay, and if you quote chose to be gay, you were taboo as hell. And that was another thing that had the parents like, what is happening to my children? You know, there was just a lot of shifting in the way people approached what was considered normal and okay.

[Kathryn 13:44] And again, this was all happening around the same time as the inception of the Satanic Church, which just kind of built the perfect storm. Everyone started to sort of zero in on the why behind why things were happening. And as is the case with a lot of stories, Satanic Church was the perfect scapegoat for this time period. Go ahead. I do too.

[Gina 14:01] ⁓ I guess I kind of get that. had never really considered what, you know what I mean? Because I've heard about the satanic panic and the things that you're talking about. And my reaction to the parents getting freaked out was always, ⁓ come on, old people. Get with the times. But I actually, now that I'm thinking that, probably was really fucking scary. When you're trying to teach your kids what's acceptable and OK, and the definition of those things is in flux, I get why they were trying to latch on even harder to the way things had been.

[Kathryn 14:28] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing, I... This is a classic Hindsight is 2020. the theme of a lot of what we will talk about is it okay to just latch on to the way things have always been as a form of safety and understanding and, you know, I am a parent and I am afraid and I need to protect my child.

[Kathryn 14:54] I understand that and I respect that and I get that. On the other hand, things fucking change. You know what I mean? I don't fault any of the parents for any of the beliefs they had or things they thought. At the same time, there were also so many missed opportunities for the parents to grow in their understanding of what society is as well. You know what I mean? It's that kind of, you know.

[Gina 15:22] Mm. Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 15:27] Well, I don't want say I don't blame anyone in this story because I do. But as far as the parents are concerned, my my empathy is with them. I do understand. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like I do understand everything we're about to talk about. A lot of it. I also just happen to not like it. That's the attitude I'm going into this with. With all of that being said.

[Gina 15:37] Understandable. Yeah. Totally. Sweet.

[Kathryn 15:52] we can kind of see now and he did communicate this then but it's you know hindsight is 2020 the fact that Lavey's approach to Satanism was largely theatrical if not completely theatrical he knew that society was changing and lot of people were afraid of young people in the way they had never really been before and he used that to gain notoriety

[Kathryn 16:17] in an attempt kind of wake people up to the fact that things change and everything we just said it was a statement he was trying to make the the imagery we have of Anton LaVey is like the Dracula vibes the big lush robes dark rooms chanting all of the

[Kathryn 16:35] of satanic stereotypes that we associate with like vampires and the occult and all that kind of stuff. It was performative. He was putting on a show. There was no evil intent behind anything that he was doing. He was just trying to make a statement and get people to think. With that being said, to your point, know, if you don't know that, you don't know that and it can seem very scary if you're unaware of like what he was trying to do. ⁓ No, go ahead. Yeah, no, you're fine.

[Gina 17:04] What's it? I'm so sorry that I keep interrupting you. What is it similar to? And I might be like misrepresenting it. Is it similar to the satanic church? How it's more about

[Kathryn 17:14] Well, so, well, we'll get there. Don't worry. We'll get there. You're talking about Satanic temple, Yes. We'll get there. Don't worry. But yes, And it was, to jump way ahead, but it was less political and more just personal. it wasn't about politics. It was just about society as a whole.

[Gina 17:18] Okay. sorry, yes, that's what I meant. Okay, okay, cool, cool, cool. Got it. I dig that, yeah.

[Kathryn 17:36] So despite the performative nature of this group in 1972, ⁓ so I did not do a good job of Googling last names, so I apologize in advance. I did try to look all of them up, but I just didn't do a great job with this one. So there's a lot of names and I'm doing my best. So sorry and thank you. Okay, so.

[Gina 17:56] You

[Kathryn 17:58] So in 1972, a man named Mike Warnke, I think probably, published a memoir called The Satan Cellar. This book is often cited as one of the first official catalysts for North America devolving into Satanism and the onset of the Satanic panic. In this memoir,

[Kathryn 18:20] Warnke would claim that he was a high-ranking satanic priest in a top-secret cult in which he had over 1,500 followers under his command. It all started with a pretty traumatic childhood during which he lost both of his parents by the time he was 11 years old. After that, he would kind of bounce around living with different relatives throughout his whole childhood, which led him to feel really alienated and alone.

[Kathryn 18:46] He'd grow to be kind of the classic lonely, angry, misunderstood teenager who had experienced quite a bit of trauma. And he eventually turned to drugs and lashing out as a way to cope with the pain. Eventually, he rejected Christianity during high school. It was specifically noted.

[Kathryn 19:02] even though he was attending and very active within a Christian high school. just keep that in mind. A few years later, while attending St. Bernardino... Yes, you know, the end. Thank you for tuning in. So while attending San Bernardino... I can never say that! San Bernardino...

[Gina 19:21] Okay. ⁓ ⁓ yes. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Kathryn 19:40] Valley College, ⁓ he claimed a friend introduced him to the occult. And that's where things started to kind of get out of hand. He allegedly joined this top secret satanic cult and he was initiated into the group using black magic as part of that's a direct quote, I didn't say it, but hopefully that was implied as part of the initiation process.

[Kathryn 20:11] He claims that he had to make a blood pact to swear his loyalty to the cult and was forced to renounce Jesus and pledge his loyalty completely to Satan. Shortly after his initiation, he would quickly rise through the ranks of the cult and he said it was because of his, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh. He said it was because of his quote, intelligence and charisma. So.

[Gina 20:33] Well, it's good that he has no bias, so we can trust him in this.

[Kathryn 20:36] Yes. So anyway, it was using these very important and wonderful personality traits that he eventually rose to be the high priest within this group.

[Kathryn 20:50] So during this time, he was coerced into participating in rituals involving blood, sex, and human sacrifice.

[Kathryn 20:58] As part of their ritual requirements, he regularly did and also coerced others into doing drugs and participating in orgies, performing again, black magic and various other occult activities, whatever those may be. ⁓ Sounds like a fucking college party to me. I don't know. I don't know what's going on in San Bernardino, but...

[Gina 21:14] Sounds like a fucking party. Yeah.

[Kathryn 21:22] JK, mom and dad. Anyway. So he said that at this time during these ceremonies and rituals and all that, he would wear black robe and white face paint, like white face makeup, think like black metal vibes. And he had his own personal demon guide who appeared to him during these rituals. Right? Okay. What? I know. Exactly.

[Gina 21:46] What? How do you get one?

[Kathryn 21:50] Guess blood sacrifice, I guess. I don't know. I'm so curious. Your own personal little demon guide? I am imagining Phil from Hercules again, which I realize is not a demon, but I'm imagining it's a little one. Yes! Someone little, like a little demon. Not a big demon, we a little, like a pocket demon. Yes.

[Gina 21:54] That's so fucking cool. ⁓ I'm picturing Mushu. Like a tiny little like, yeah. And not like a super mean one, just like a slightly mischievous, a little bit sinful.

[Kathryn 22:14] Just like a little sassy little friend. Yes.

[Gina 22:17] It's like hoisting the tequila bottle up for you with all of its body strength.

[Kathryn 22:22] Yes, same page. Yeah. 100 % Yes. So yes, he's having a great fucking time. ⁓ At this time, he also says that he had long white hair, black painted fingernails, and his teeth had been filed into sharp points.

[Gina 22:27] Alright, sweet, so he's having a great time. You lost me with the teeth.

[Kathryn 22:44] I know, know. Okay. Otherwise, into it, we're fine with it. He also claimed that they would perform regular human sacrifice, though he never confessed to doing it himself. He never confessed to murder. Conveniently, he was never the one doing the official sacrificing. He described Satanism as being, quote, similar to a secret society or mafia.

[Gina 22:46] Mmm. Hmm.

[Kathryn 23:10] but far more dangerous.

[Kathryn 23:12] Yeah. Yes, yep. So after one particularly intense ritual and what he described as a period of spiritual torment, Warnke claimed he began to question Satan's power. And I don't know if it was ever explicitly stated what happened that made him like come to.

[Gina 23:15] There are two wolves inside me. It's like that shit.

[Kathryn 23:40] I don't think it doesn't matter what it was. What matters is he was like suddenly like, fuck this, this is bad. So he kind of started to spiral a little bit and wish for a way out of this cult that no longer felt right to him. At a certain point, a Christian friend converted him back to Christianity basically just overnight. He was just like.

[Gina 23:48] Okay.

[Kathryn 24:05] Abra Kadabra, you're Christian again now, like, welcome back. You know, like, there was no like, yeah, he just became Christian again. After he was converted back, he said he faced numerous spiritual attacks and demonic harassment, but he stayed strong in his faith in God. Essentially, credits Jesus for freeing him from Satan's grasp. And he started to preach within the evangelical Christian faith, warning others about the threat of satanic cults.

[Gina 24:34] Did he still have fangs when he was preaching to the masses? Okay, cool.

[Kathryn 24:37] look out there, don't you worry, my beautiful, beautiful little friend. Don't you worry.

[Kathryn 24:41] So people fully believed his claims. He used a lot of really effective, almost kind of preachy language to communicate his story. And he correlated a lot of, you know, what happened to him to kind of very evocative Bible verses. So he was able to convince a lot of people that this is real.

[Kathryn 24:57] In 1991, so we're fast forwarding a while, Cornerstone magazine, which wasn't, I think they're still around, I think I should say is an evangelical Christian magazine, wrote a whole expose debunking every single one of his claims. So he's basically outed by the very church that he,

[Gina 25:25] Mmm.

[Kathryn 25:30] made this story up to support and get people to convert to and go to etc. Some of the examples of his claims that were debunked were exactly what you just asked. Very good question. He claimed to have long white hair and filed teeth during this time. But Cornerstone uncovered his yearbooks and got family photos during and after this timeframe that he claimed this all was happening. He just looked like some

[Kathryn 25:50] short-haired, clean-cut, average toothed, boring old guy. And for those who are still confused, you can't unfile your teeth. Like, that's a commitment. Unless you get veneers or... Right, right. But that's expensive. And he was in college when this all allegedly happened. Like, he couldn't just like... Again, unless he has fake teeth, but like, there's no record.

[Gina 26:05] Okay. That's what, yeah, unless you get really good fake, yeah, but that's expensive.

[Kathryn 26:26] There's no dental records of that. Like he has no, I don't know. Like, well, I do know, but for argument's sake, I don't know. So out of the 1500 followers he claims to have had, reporters for the magazine couldn't find a single person to not only admit to being a follower, but they also said that no one from his family or friend group, know, classmates, teachers.

[Gina 26:28] Yeah. Hehehehe

[Kathryn 26:52] Nobody ever experienced any weird behavior or sneakiness. There was never a time where he was like missing or unaccounted for or being weird or anything. Not a single person could corroborate a single one of his claims. He also, sorry, I'm gonna be laughing through a lot of this, he also claimed that he personally ran a secret satanic drug ring.

[Kathryn 27:10] and very regularly himself used heroin, LSD, and other pretty aggressive drugs on a quote, daily basis.

[Kathryn 27:17] We're gonna pause for reaction. And unsurprisingly, the friends and roommates who were interviewed all unanimously said that like he was very socially awkward and extremely conservative. And no one ever saw him high on anything ever. And there were never any drugs in sight. There was nothing ever like in any of the dorms or anywhere he was.

[Kathryn 27:37] And he had zero criminal record. There's no record of anything ever happening. And I just have to say for anyone who's confused by Gina's and my reaction, if you are not high on any of these substances and you are on a regular basis around someone who is, you fucking know, like you know that something weird is happening. You might not know what it is.

[Gina 28:21] You know.

[Kathryn 28:26] But the fact that no one can retrospectively say like, yeah, that's why he was, you know, whatever, ABC, blah, An LSD? Like, what the fuck? Yes. You would notice something weird. Daily, yes. Anyway, so just absolutely batshit. Like, yeah. So, dude.

[Gina 28:33] Shit like heroin and acid? Like you fucking know. You would notice something. Especially if it's daily. Come on. This is funny.

[Kathryn 28:55] Can't, it's like gets so much fucking weird. We're in chapter one here. Okay. So he also said he lived a double life, college and military enlisted by day, because he was also in the fucking military during all of this, and satanic rituals by night. But during the timeframe that he was alleging that he was having all of these underground

[Gina 28:58] Okay. ⁓ okay.

[Kathryn 29:23] satanic rituals on campus with students and people blah blah blah. He was deployed. He was overseas.

[Gina 29:31] Dude, they can check that shit.

[Kathryn 29:33] Yes, yeah, he was literally gone at war during the timeframe that he was saying all of this was happening. He put this in a book, in a memoir, in a quote, true story. Yes. Yes. So that, what you just fucking said, this was public information that he was putting out there. No one...

[Gina 29:39] And he put this in a book. Dude.

[Kathryn 29:56] I shouldn't say no one. Maybe some people were like, this is sketch and weird, but it wasn't officially debunked until like I said, 1991. So this is many, many years. Was that two decades? This happened in 70 something? Yeah, it was like 79 or something. I remember what I said. But yeah, like 70. So that's was over 20 years of people just believing this.

[Gina 30:08] Because said it was the 70s. Yeah. yeah, damn. So somebody could grow up believing this to be true, like from the time that they are able to learn words and what religion means. That could be part of their belief structure. Damn.

[Kathryn 30:25] Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.

[Gina 30:29] What a little weirdo.

[Kathryn 30:30] Yeah, such a fucking weirdo. But people believed him because... So he went on to be a preacher. Preachers fucking know how to get people to believe things. Like that's why they're preachers, you know? So he, again, he used that language. his Christian faith and he was good lying. I don't know. Like, I don't know how to describe him.

[Gina 30:39] Mmm. He sounds like a propagandist, like that's what it sounds like.

[Kathryn 30:53] Oh, well, everyone that we're going to be talking about is a propaganda. Yeah, 100%. That's all any of this is. To this day, this is all just propaganda. This is why Gina always heavily advises against me choosing these real big topics, because this is what happens to me. I'm so annoyed. God, I'm so annoyed. This is such an infuriating story. Anyway, so.

[Gina 30:56] Okay. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. But I love watching it. You Anyway.

[Kathryn 31:22] His goal was to scare people into being just as devout and loyal to the church as he was, and it worked, which is why we're fucking sitting here talking about it today. So leading into the mid 70s and early 80s, people were really paying attention to what was going on in the media and how people were behaving and they were looking for signs of people basically straying from God or just.

[Kathryn 31:43] normal everyday behavior and like falling into Satan's grasp or whatever the fuck. One of the biggest targets of the militant Christian watchdoggery was metal music. And this is my favorite part of the Satanic panic. This is the most fun to me. And there is some I will say, I forgot to give some trigger warnings. I will give a little trigger warning now for the rest of this episode. And then I'll give another one for part two, but

[Kathryn 32:05] trigger warning for suicide and obviously like mental health things. just, it's been a little gentle thus far, but it does get a little dark. just I forgot to say that at the beginning. But besides that, at its core, the 70s, I will say was a very fun decade for rock and roll specifically. You had bands like

[Kathryn 32:20] Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, and Kiss, who are all really pushing the boundaries as far as the whole sex, drugs, and rock and roll situation is concerned. lot of these bands also pushed boundaries playing with occult imagery and relatively dark lyrics. there was a lot of stuff being talked about and sang about that really hadn't been touched on a lot before.

[Kathryn 32:45] And there was also lot of gender bending going on, which I feel like isn't talked as much about, guys were wearing tight leather pants, their hair was down to their ass, like, everyone was wearing makeup. It's like the classic heels, platforms, like, bigger shoes than I'm comfortable wearing, you know? So, the parents were just not okay. Like, they were not okay, all right?

[Gina 33:10] Makeup, Heels. ⁓ Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 33:29] Black Sabbath, whose name alone was enough to freak out the Christians, is often credited for being one of the first that really drew the connection between metal music and Satan. I will say, again, disclaimer, there's a lot going on at this time. No one come for me if you want to talk about it being like someone else first. I'm just saying they are one of the first, okay? We have only two parts.

[Kathryn 33:48] to tell this whole story, I'm doing my best. There's just, that is one thing I know someone's gonna get mad about, I know. I'm so sorry that I can't tell you every single thing that happened, but that they are one of the first to kind of tip people off to something spooky going on. In addition to their name, their look and sound was heavily tied to the stereotypical occult imagery. Another band that was...

[Gina 33:57] Get her boys!

[Kathryn 34:18] given heavy side eye was Led Zeppelin. And that's because one of their band members, Jimmy Page, was very open about being a collector of memorabilia from Aleister Crowley, is the English occultist. I think he, yeah, I think he literally I could be wrong. We can fact check myself on this, but I think he bought his house. I could be wrong.

[Gina 34:33] didn't know that. That's fucking cool. wonder if my dad knows that, because he loves Led Zeppelin.

[Kathryn 34:45] similar to Anton Lavey the spooky lyrics and behaviors of these bands were way more theatrical than they were

[Kathryn 34:54] actual religious doctrine. These guys were doing nothing more than putting on a show. That was literally their job. They were musicians. They were showmen. One of the biggest critiques that, like music snoots, no offense, but music snoots have about 70s and 80s rock is that compared to the 60s and prior, the music took a backseat to the theatrics. And these kind of later decades,

[Kathryn 35:18] It was more about the performance and the physical experience, the concert going experience or whatever, the music itself. of the most famous examples of this that turned into a satanic ritual claim was the infamous time that Ozzy Osbourne bit the head off of a bat on stage in 1982. Yes.

[Gina 35:43] yes, I've heard about this.

[Kathryn 35:46] So a lot of people say that it was an animal sacrifice and he was summoning Satan and this is clear proof of devil worship, etc.

[Kathryn 35:52] What actually happened was explained on Late Night with David Letterman when Ozzy was a guest later that year. He said, we get a lot of weird people at my concerts. It's rock and roll. Somebody threw a bat on stage and I thought it was one of those little rubber toy bats. So I picked it up. I bit the thing's head off and suddenly everybody's freaking out. So he had no idea that he was biting an actual real

[Kathryn 36:20] I want to say live because it was probably dead, but actual real bat. ⁓ was like, I am going to compare it to like the toy bat version of smashing a guitar. Like he just saw a thing and was going to destroy it real quick and then move on. You know what I mean? Like that's rock and roll. You destroy shit, you know? And he didn't realize it was a real bat and that was all it was. It was a misunderstanding. He was confused. And now here we are.

[Gina 36:27] Ugh.

[Kathryn 36:48] these years later and people still think that he did it on purpose to like, summon the devil or whatever. of that, it really did not matter what he said, or what his excuse was, if you will, the damage had been done and everyone was freaking out. This was just kind of another drop in the bucket of proof of satanic activity in devil music. I'm sorry, metal music. That was a Freudian slip. Whoopsie!

[Gina 37:14] The Freudian slip, yeah. In the devil music.

[Kathryn 37:16] my gosh, not to out myself, sorry. Okay. It's the doubles. I can't even, I'm like, I can't even like fuck around with this stuff anymore because I'm still so mad. Anyway, so by the mid 80s, metal music was one of the top targets for parents. This just, again, just kept escalating and escalating and escalating. the mid 80s is when we see the first official legal case.

[Kathryn 37:43] of backmasking within the satanic panic and I'm gonna keep saying that word slowly because I keep accidentally saying back smacking but it's back masking. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you. So back masking is an audio recording technique where a secret message is encoded in a recording ⁓ so you can only hear it when you play it backwards.

[Gina 37:52] What? What is that? Okay. ⁓ yes. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't know there was a word for that, okay.

[Kathryn 38:12] So it's like a sneaky lyrical thing.

[Kathryn 38:14] there is. It's apparently very difficult for some people to say. ⁓ One of the first times we see it in popular music predating the satanic panic was the Beatles song Rain, which was released in 1966, same year the Church of Satan was founded. It created some urban legends.

[Kathryn 38:37] around like hidden messages about Paul McCartney's death, who at the time of this recording is still alive. I don't want to jinx it or anything. but it never really gained traction. The concept of back masking wasn't really

[Kathryn 38:50] the public's lexicon until the 80s when this all started happening.

[Gina 38:54] Okay.

[Kathryn 38:55] the first instance we see backmasking come up within the conversation about Satan and the satanic panic in the 1980s.

[Kathryn 39:01] was with the Judas Priest song, Better by You, Better Than Me. renewed trigger warning, we are gonna be talking about suicide in this section. In 1985, two Nevada teenagers, Raymond Belknap, I think, and James Vance created a suicide pact with each other. And it was alleged by their families that they did so after listening to this Judas Priest song.

[Kathryn 39:31] Raymond did unfortunately die by suicide and James survived his suicide but was horribly disfigured and died three years later. Yeah, I know. That's heartbreaking. ⁓ I know. Their families filed an official lawsuit against Judas Priest and CBS records.

[Kathryn 39:55] And the lawsuit stated that if you played the song backwards, you can hear them say, quote, do it, do it, do it, end quote, which they said was a subliminal message to commit suicide. That was their words. So let's just sit there for a second. And then now we're going to move on. During the trial, the members of Judas Priest

[Gina 40:11] Mm-hmm.

[Kathryn 40:20] did admit to using audio effects in the song, but vehemently denied embedding any reverse messages in their songs. they testified that if they were going to include hidden messages, they'd quote, encourage fans to buy more records, not kill themselves. Valid, valid, right? So, ⁓

[Gina 40:41] Yeah, that's a good defense.

[Kathryn 40:46] The case was eventually dismissed because the judge ruled there was no conclusive evidence that a subliminal message caused the suicide. Whether or not there was one, the verdict was even if there was one, it did not cause deaths of these two boys, basically. In cases like this, people just hear what they want to hear and...

[Kathryn 41:04] The public didn't care that the case was dismissed. All they heard was, these guys were accused of being the reason someone died, which equals they were the reason someone died. Like that is to this day how it goes, unfortunately, in many cases. But that was kind of the nail in the coffin for metal music. This led to a whole string of accusations of back masking, including

[Kathryn 41:35] Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven, that's a very popular one, a song called Suicide Solution by Ozzy Osbourne and Iron Maiden's Number of the Beast. Among many others, these are just like, these are the more commonly known songs. As a result of the Judas Priest case, the Parents Music Resource Center was officially founded in 1985.

[Kathryn 41:57] by Tipper Gore, who was the wife of then Senator Al Gore, who is, she is Phil's arch nemesis. Let me tell you why. So she founded this group along with a bunch of other political wives known informally as quote, the Washington wives, AKA, bored rich white women. We can edit that out if we need to, but I mean it. So.

[Gina 42:06] Tipper. Really? Mm-hmm. I stand by it.

[Kathryn 42:30] Anyway.

[Kathryn 42:32] The reason Phil hates this woman to this day is you can thank the PMRC for those little parental advisory stickers we used to see on CDs. Yes. Yep. So they heavily pushed for rating system similar to what you would see on a movie as a way to protect children from music that had themes related to violence, sex.

[Gina 42:42] Really? ⁓

[Kathryn 42:58] drug use, and occult and satanic themes. That's like their official list. Ironically, the parental advisory sticker had the opposite effect over the years and has been credited for boosting countless record sales as opposed to preventing them.

[Gina 43:01] you I mean, if you want teenagers to fucking do what you say, you shouldn't tell them they can't do it.

[Kathryn 43:17] Listen, well, so that's why she, that's why Tipper, that's why Tipper is Phil's arch nemesis because that little sticker is the reason he couldn't buy some Metallica CD in middle school. Cause his mom said, no, he's mad about it to this day. We literally just talked about it. Like, wait, so we were watching a movie where Tipper, was like of this era or something. Someone mentioned Tipper Gore and he literally goes, It's happened like a week ago. Yeah.

[Gina 43:34] Wow.

[Kathryn 43:46] He's like, gross. Yeah.

[Gina 43:48] Not Tom, my God, Phil has the most obscure opinions about people.

[Kathryn 43:52] He's an obscure guy, I don't know. Like, who the fuck knows who Tipper Gore is anymore? Phil does. Yeah.

[Gina 44:00] About that fucking Milwaukee historian? Gurda or whatever his name is? John Gurda? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, sorry.

[Kathryn 44:04] John Gurda, my God. ⁓ my God, he's obsessed. He still does events all the time. I sell his books at the bookstore. Like every fucking day people are obsessed with John Gurda. Which like no shade to Gurda. It's just such a niche. Like specific people are obsessed with Gurda and somehow Phil is one of them. Yeah. Anyway, so again, the sticker did not keep anyone from buying anything.

[Gina 44:16] Where's your gir- Phil is just so passionate about it.

[Kathryn 44:32] It all kind of backfired in that regard. As far as parents buying albums for their kids, this is a personal opinion. I am inserting my own thoughts into this, as I've been doing such a great job of not doing thus far. I would argue that instead of like arming parents with the knowledge needed to like educate themselves on how to talk to their kids about this stuff,

[Kathryn 44:54] and other very sensitive topics, I think it did nothing but just scare them. Like all they saw was a no-buy sign and they freaked out. And all of a sudden it was like, now we're even more scared about these things that we don't understand and don't have like the knowledge or language to have discussions about in an effective and valuable way. So nothing got solved. all it did.

[Gina 45:01] Mm. Yeah.

[Kathryn 45:17] was scare parents. Like nothing actually got done, Anyway, so that's metal music in the 80s. So let's move on, because there is a lot going on to contribute to the satanic panic, and this was just one small piece of it.

[Kathryn 45:31] At the exact same time that all of this was going on in the music industry, another fun little thing was happening and that was two men named Gary and Dave, whose last names I can't pronounce so I'm not going to try, were busy inventing a little game that you might know as Dungeons and Dragons.

[Gina 45:49] Oh! Gygax, Gary Gygax and someone else. Yes, because it's the coolest fucking name ever.

[Kathryn 45:51] Guy Gax, thank you. Okay, it's Dave Arneson, I think is how you pronounce it, but there's a couple extra vowels. So it's Guy Gax. Okay, well, thank God I didn't try because I was gonna say Guy-jacks. So anyway, yep. Cheers. Goodnight, everybody.

[Gina 45:58] That sounds right, yeah. GIGACS, yeah. Imagine that being your last name. they thought D &D was all satanic and horrible.

[Kathryn 46:20] God, that's like the girl we have like another hour of this like yes, we'll dive deeper into why because there's a why. So also, fun fact, it was invented right here in Wisconsin. Did you know that? Lake Geneva.

[Gina 46:23] Wow, yeah, okay. ⁓ I'm ready for this section. think I did know, wasn't really?

[Kathryn 46:36] Yeah, well, according to Google, yeah.

[Gina 46:41] That's fucking cool.

[Kathryn 46:42] Yeah, so it was published in 1974. And, you know, we've talked about D &D on this podcast before, and I am very confident it will come up again. But for those who don't Dungeons and Dragons is a fantasy role playing game with magic monsters and mythical gods. Players can create their own characters and basically just move through a fictional world as those characters overcome challenges and like

[Kathryn 47:08] do shit using strategy and storytelling. Our own resident Gina is a D &D enthusiast and for the sake of my own entertainment, can you please give people some examples of who you've been in the past? Pretty pretty pleased with gumdrops?

[Gina 47:27] The last time I played D &D was a few weeks ago and I played ⁓ Liza Spagheny.

[Kathryn 47:36] Super demonic for anyone wondering.

[Gina 47:36] who was a super-demonic. She was a, what was she, I think ⁓ she was a halfling bard, and she was basically Liza Minnelli just on a bit of a murderous streak. And then the one I'd played before that was Sunny McPiratepants who was a gnome pirate, whose boat had been taken away from her and she just wanted to get her ship back. Shenanigans ensued.

[Kathryn 47:46] Of course. Also evil as fuck.

[Gina 48:02] And there have been a myriad of others over the years, all of which follow similar themes.

[Kathryn 48:05] Yes. So as you can see, this is a very dangerous game that everyone should be very scared of. So again, it was published in 1974 and it was very niche and underground when it first got started. It was very much...

[Gina 48:12] Yes.

[Kathryn 48:25] like a word of mouth, you needed to be invited to play, you needed to, you know, be accepted and invited into the little group. You'd gather in your parents, wood paneled basements, snuggle up on the cigarette stained couch, and just escape reality for a while. It was really like, it flew under the radar for a long time. It was just an innocent way for the school geeks.

[Kathryn 48:46] to get together and be friends with each other. That was like the stereotype when it first got started. That was the vibe. Then five years after it was originally published, it started to gain a not so great reputation when a young college student went missing in 1979. Dallas Egbert III, which is his real name and not his DND name, which we love.

[Gina 49:15] I love that. That's what this reaction is, is obsession. I fucking love that name. No, that's fucking incredible. Holy shit! my god!

[Kathryn 49:43] Yeah, he wasn't even doing anything fake like what I did. He was, yeah, like writing. Like he learned to write in kindergarten. So yeah, like he was very, very smart. He was described as being extremely intelligent, but also very awkward. He didn't have a lot of friends. He reportedly struggled with depression and drug use. And he experienced a lot of pressure from his family.

[Gina 49:46] Like writing. Like what we both did.

[Kathryn 50:11] specifically in regards to their high academic expectations. It kind of seemed like not being the smartest guy in the room wasn't an option for him. You know what I mean? It was that kind of, yeah. So that caused a lot of pressure for him. Keep in mind he's only 16 years old. That is extremely young to be like off at college, away from home, especially if you don't have a lot of social skills to work with.

[Gina 50:31] Yeah.

[Kathryn 50:40] I imagine, like my heart just dropped even just talking about it. I imagine that was very isolating for him. ⁓

[Gina 50:45] And Ohio and Michigan are not, it's not like just a hop, skip, and a jump. It's like that's a solid drive to get from Dayton to East Lansing.

[Kathryn 50:52] Where Dayton is, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not like he was away at school. This wasn't like, yeah. Right, right. So on August 15th, 1979, James's roommate came forward to say that he hadn't seen James in a while. At first, he just assumed that they had kept missing each other. It's a college dorm. People are always in and out.

[Gina 50:54] Yeah. His family was not like readily available. Okay.

[Kathryn 51:16] He was thinking maybe he like changed his class schedule, made some new friends. Like he didn't know, he didn't think it was that weird. He didn't think it was that big of a deal. Keep in mind, this was 1979. It was far more normal to go longer without seeing or hearing from people back then. You weren't, you know, constantly checking in and texting and posting on social. Like it was very normal to...

[Gina 51:34] Mm.

[Kathryn 51:42] go weeks without seeing people and you had to like leave each other notes and blah, blah. wasn't, he wasn't, we don't blame this roommate for not noticing he was gone for a few weeks before he said something. So after a little while though, I think it was like three or four weeks. I think it was almost a month. He was feeling kind of strange that he hadn't seen or heard from him. And that's when he noticed that his bed didn't appear to have been slept in.

[Gina 51:51] No.

[Kathryn 52:07] He contacted authorities and his family and everyone was immediately concerned because he had been showing signs of depression And that's also when they discovered the note, the infamous note. It had been left and to this day the full context within the note has not been disclosed so we don't know exactly

[Kathryn 52:29] what the note said, but the family had hired a private investigator named William Deer to try and find James, and Deer described the note as, quote, vague, troubled, and led us to believe that James had either gone into hiding or possibly taken his own life. So the media obviously ate this up. The headlines write themselves for this one, this exceptionally

[Kathryn 52:53] brilliant young college student who was this computer prodigy and had mental health issues was missing under extremely mysterious circumstances. Like, it doesn't get better than that for a journalist, you know what I mean? story spread like wildfire. As if the story wasn't alluring enough, one of the biggest theories presented publicly by William Dear, despite the fact

[Gina 53:07] Yeah.

[Kathryn 53:19] that there was zero evidence of this theory, I just want to preface, it was just a random idea he had, was the fact that perhaps James had decided to play a live action version of Dungeons and Dragons in the steam tunnels beneath MSU, he may have gotten lost, injured, or killed by someone in a satanic cult.

[Gina 53:42] That's real specific for there being zero evidence.

[Kathryn 53:45] That sure is real fucking specific. naturally, you know, he shares this theory again with no evidence to go on. But he shares it publicly media picks it up. That's the story moving forward. truly it was extremely irresponsible.

[Kathryn 54:04] of him to say this at the point that he did. about a month later on September 13th, James is found alive in New Orleans. That's over 1000 miles or 1600 kilometers away from East Lansing, Michigan. So he got really far. don't, I honestly don't know how they found him, but they did and he was alive. So what happened was he

[Kathryn 54:28] had run away and he had made several suicide attempts along the way, but all were unsuccessful. He did go down into the steam tunnels on campus at one point, but he wasn't playing D &D. He went down there with the intention of dying, essentially. I'm sorry. More trigger warnings. Just trigger warning for suicide for all of this because it's going to keep coming up.

[Kathryn 54:52] He had taken a bunch of sleeping pills down there and eventually woke up and he didn't want to be found. So He just kind of continued on his way. And he never said anything about satanic cult. He didn't insinuate that that's what happened. He didn't mention D &D at all. It was just, he was this young kid who felt overwhelmed and needed help.

[Kathryn 55:14] and he didn't know what to do or where to go, so he ran away to New Orleans and, you know, wanted to die, unfortunately. That was literally at its core, like an extreme case of depression, basically.

[Gina 55:26] Poor kid. Do we know if he's, if he turned out okay?

[Kathryn 55:31] So.

[Kathryn 55:33] No, he did not. About a year later, he did die by suicide. In addition to the depression, loneliness, drug, I'm gonna say alleged drug use I don't know if that was ever proven. but I'll say a lot like the depression and loneliness we know for sure.

[Gina 55:39] Mmm.

[Kathryn 55:51] But whatever, besides all of those things, based on discussions with classmates and teachers and other people that knew him relatively well, there was speculation that he could also have been struggling with his sexual identity as well. There were some people that came forward to say that He had confided in them that he felt like he may have been either gay or bisexual.

[Kathryn 56:14] And just with everything else going on and everything that was causing him to feel a lot of pressure, that could have just been too much for him. again, he didn't know what to do, he didn't know where to go. I will say, at this point in the story, because it's getting pretty dark, if you are still feeling this way, there are people who do want to listen to you and help you and be there for you.

[Kathryn 56:38] We can link some resources in our show notes. I hate that I still feel the need to say that, but we do, unfortunately. So just know that you do not have to run away or do anything that you don't want to do. just... James's story has a horrible ending. That's like, I just want to land on it for a second. It should never have gotten to this point. And the thing that rips me up...

[Gina 56:48] It's important.

[Kathryn 57:10] his story specifically is his death happened a year later. So he experienced all the news stories accusing him of being in a satanic cult and, you know, worshipping the devil and being kidnapped by whoever the fuck. So like, I do wonder if that may have also contributed to what he already was feeling. And

[Gina 57:33] I would imagine so.

[Kathryn 57:35] Like, I can't imagine it didn't, right? You know, unless he was like completely locked away. And I don't know, I don't know where he was or I assume he was at home at that point, but I don't know. is another thing, like I do not blame his parents when I say he didn't get the help he needed. It's that's just an objective fact. I'm not saying like they didn't get him the help he needed, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because again, this was a period of time where parents

[Kathryn 58:00] They were told to fear satanic cults, you know, they didn't know that therapy could have helped him. And I also don't know if he was in therapy. like, so another situation where I'm not blaming anyone. just hindsight is very much 2020 and it sucks. Yeah, yes. Unfortunately, his death only fueled the satanic rumors.

[Gina 58:14] This sucks.

[Kathryn 58:23] People didn't view his story for what it was, which was a young man who needed help. They viewed it as another young, innocent soul lost to Satan. So it was because of this that Christian groups and anti-occult activists began framing DND as a gateway to the occult and Satan worship, despite, again, there being zero evidence of this whatsoever.

[Kathryn 58:44] And this was the first case of suicide that sparked rumors about the connection between D &D and the satanic cult. But it wasn't the last. 1982, a woman named Pat Pulling lost her son to suicide. he did play Dungeons and Dragons. And as a result, she was inspired to form an organization. Sorry. It's not funny, but it is funny. She was inspired to.

[Kathryn 59:09] form an organization called BADD, which stands for Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons. I'm sorry. Yeah. So... Yeah. Are you bothered about Dungeons and Dragons? Yeah. So she... I'm sorry. I'm sorry to laugh. We're literally talking about suicide, but I'm sorry. Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, like, Come on.

[Gina 59:21] I'm going to join. I'm bothered. I'm right bothered.

[Kathryn 59:42] Anyway, so she claimed that she lost her son because the game allowed him to summon a demon who possessed him and forced him to kill himself.

[Gina 59:50] That is a thing in the game. You can in fact summon a demon.

[Kathryn 59:55] You being serious? Can you really? Okay. Okay. So that is like a true, let's clarify for our listeners in this moment that within the confines of the game, this is a thing that can happen.

[Gina 59:56] I'm being serious, yeah, it's like what a warlock is. can, you you, well, okay, I don't. Okay. You can't, so if you play, usually it's like if you play a warlock. A warlock is a spellcaster, so you use magic and your power comes from something else, like some other entity. You have a deal with this entity that gives you your power to do XYZ. In return, you have to like, it depends. You might have to sell your soul to them. You might have to, you know, it completely depends. ⁓ Some of the entities are demonic-y.

[Gina 1:00:30] and evil. And that's kind of the stereotype with Warlocks is that they're backed by this evil thing. And so it's a war of like, the character might want to do the right thing, but the person giving them the power wants them to do the wrong thing. And so it creates a lot of tension.

[Kathryn 1:00:49] But like within the game, I want to clarify for the listeners. You do not actually summon a real demon in life that can possess you and your human body on earth. In the game, Dungeons and Dragons, this is a part of a tabletop game.

[Gina 1:00:58] No, in the game.

[Kathryn 1:01:06] These parents are suggesting that it is not part of the game. It is real life and they are truly using this game to summon demons. She thought that he summoned he himself not his character in the game, but she thought he summoned a demon.

[Gina 1:01:12] They thought it was legit. Okay. Got it.

[Kathryn 1:01:21] Who caused him to kill himself. Yes. Yes. So, this actually is a good discussion to talk about everything you just said and explain that there are like parallels between what these people thought and.

[Gina 1:01:24] Got it, got it, got it, okay.

[Kathryn 1:01:34] what was actually happening, which was just a game, to this day, things like depression, addiction,

[Kathryn 1:01:38] not fully understanding your own... Are people screaming? Okay, sorry. We're talking about Satan, so I just wanted to make sure. Gotcha. Okay. Okay, sweet. So for anyone listening, we have not accidentally summoned something. I feel like we're really losing traction with our case here. I'm so sorry. So anyway.

[Gina 1:01:48] It's a Friday and it's, yeah, there's people on the, they're all going to the bars and so they're all outside my house right now. That's just my demon. Get back!

[Kathryn 1:02:10] These things to this day can very much feel, it's like that expression battling your demons, you know what I mean? Like it can feel, especially things like depression or addiction or really deep seated mental health things. People looking in from the outside, I can understand that confusion. I can understand thinking you are not yourself. Who are you?

[Kathryn 1:02:33] what is happening must be a demon. I get that. You know, I do. But I also think it's important that all of these demons can be fought with therapy and medical intervention. So like, that's where I get like, you got to use the knowledge you have to think critically in situations like this. So again, no judgment toward the parents of the 1980s, but lots of critiques and

[Gina 1:02:36] Yeah. Yeah.

[Kathryn 1:03:02] feedback. ⁓ Lots of notes. So at this point, we have to ask why is Satan specifically the scapegoat for all of these things? We already started to get afraid in the 70s and even as early as the 60s. And even before that, we've been afraid of Satan for all of time. But at this point, why is the media latching on so tightly to Satan being everywhere? Specifically,

[Gina 1:03:03] Lots of notes.

[Kathryn 1:03:29] the fear of him infiltrating the lives of children and young people. That has been the focus. None of the parents were worried about each other. They were all worried about the young kids. Well, there's an answer. A lot of people credit this extreme increase in panic in the early 80s to a little book called Michelle Remembers, which we will talk more about in part two.

[Gina 1:03:40] Good point. Is that where you're leaving it?

[Kathryn 1:03:59] Yes! Tune in Thursday! We're not gonna make you wait till Tuesday. We'll release it Thursday, as we did with our boy, ⁓ boy, our boy-boy, Boy Jones. ⁓ Yeah, we'll have part two out on Thursday. Have a listen. That's it, that's all I have for part one. We'll dive deeper into more shit on Thursday. Yeah. I get a little madder Thursday, so sorry in advance.

[Gina 1:04:01] Okay, that was good, that was good. Okay. Well, holy fuck. I mean, I'm lucky enough that I get to just record the next episode with you right now. So, bye everyone. I'm gonna go listen to the rest of this. I'm fucking interested. All right. Cool. All right. Well, until Thursday, little spoons. Keep it cool.

[Kathryn 1:04:32] Yes! You don't have to wait at all. Sorry everyone. Yeah. Cool. Keep it creepy.